Pakistan polio workers targeted

Seen something interesting in the news or on the intertubes? Discuss it here.

Moderators: Zamfir, Hawknc, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Angua
Don't call her Delphine.
Posts: 5941
Joined: Tue Sep 16, 2008 12:42 pm UTC
Location: UK/[St. Kitts and] Nevis Occasionally, I migrate to the US for a bit

Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Angua » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:30 pm UTC

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/12/pakistan-polio-workers-targeted-killing-201312118364851379.html

This has been going on for a while, and is a pretty sad state of affairs. I thought this claim was interesting though -
After news emerged that the US' Central Intelligence Agency employed a doctor to run a fake hepatitis B vaccination programme in an effort to find Osama bin Laden, conspiracy theories about health workers' activities have abounded - such as claims that vaccinators mark houses to be targeted by US drones. Polio workers have been accused of being CIA operatives, and the campaign has suffered incalculable damage.


These healthcare workers who continue to try to get vaccines out to the vulnerable definitely deserve all the praise that they can get.
Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
GNU Terry Pratchett

User avatar
Ormurinn
Posts: 1033
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Suth Eoferwicscire

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Ormurinn » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:01 pm UTC

Shades of Apocalypse Now;

Kurtz wrote:"We went into a camp to inoculate the children. We left the camp after we had inoculated the children for polio, and this old man came running after us and he was crying ... We went back there and they had come and hacked off every inoculated arm. There they were in a pile ... a pile of little arms."


This is what comes of an ideology which conceives of everything western as axiomatically evil.

Those out there vaccinating are heroes.
"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

User avatar
EMTP
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:39 pm UTC
Location: Elbow deep in (mostly) other people's blood.

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby EMTP » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:22 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:
This is what comes of an ideology which conceives of everything western as axiomatically evil.


Did you miss the part where there was, in fact, a secret CIA program to use fake vaccinations to find and target its enemies? One that has been acknowledged by everyone involved?

I put a lot of this with the doctor who violated medical ethics and his own oath and ran a fake vaccination program. He has undermined the trust of vaccinations among hundreds of millions of people, and a lot of people are going to die of preventative disease as a result.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6813
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:24 pm UTC

Those children were going to be infected with western propaganda from the vaccine workers/American spies. They know it's true because Bin Laden.

Seriously though, there were concerns of using a doctor to look for Bin Laden under the guise of the spy program, though I'm not sure how much can be attributed to that as opposed to Western hatred in general.

User avatar
EMTP
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:39 pm UTC
Location: Elbow deep in (mostly) other people's blood.

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby EMTP » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:51 am UTC

sardia wrote:Those children were going to be infected with western propaganda from the vaccine workers/American spies. They know it's true because Bin Laden.

Seriously though, there were concerns of using a doctor to look for Bin Laden under the guise of the spy program, though I'm not sure how much can be attributed to that as opposed to Western hatred in general.


In general, when leveling the charge of irrational paranoia, it helps when the charge is not literally true. The CIA literally used a fake vaccine program to find and kill its enemies. So I have a hard time attributing the belief that the CIA could be running a fake vaccination scam to "Western hatred."

Then there's the question of whether the people in these countries hate the West at all. They mistrust our government, sure. Again, a pretty rational position. Any source on that "Western hatred"?
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Derek » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:58 am UTC

Were the vaccinations really fake? I mean, why would you give fake vaccinations to get information? Why not just give real vaccine while getting information. Reminds me of this sketch (but backwards, I guess?).

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:14 am UTC

Derek wrote:Were the vaccinations really fake? I mean, why would you give fake vaccinations to get information? Why not just give real vaccine while getting information. Reminds me of this sketch (but backwards, I guess?).
No the vaccines weren't fake. However using a real program as a front for a Military goal was probably a poor idea. It is an issue of trust.

User avatar
EMTP
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:39 pm UTC
Location: Elbow deep in (mostly) other people's blood.

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby EMTP » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:16 am UTC

Derek wrote:Were the vaccinations really fake? I mean, why would you give fake vaccinations to get information? Why not just give real vaccine while getting information. Reminds me of this sketch (but backwards, I guess?).


The Hep B vaccination requires a series of three injections. Sounds like they did the first one, then closed up shop: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/j ... ladens-dna.
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Derek » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:17 am UTC

EMTP wrote:
Derek wrote:Were the vaccinations really fake? I mean, why would you give fake vaccinations to get information? Why not just give real vaccine while getting information. Reminds me of this sketch (but backwards, I guess?).


The Hep B vaccination requires a series of three injections. Sounds like they did the first one, then closed up shop: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2011/j ... ladens-dna.

That seems much more plausible. I'm still not sure why they wouldn't just finish the program to keep it under wraps, unless the cover was already blown.

Mambrino
Posts: 388
Joined: Tue Aug 02, 2011 9:45 pm UTC
Location: No we don't have polar bears. Except in zoos.

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Mambrino » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:50 am UTC

sardia wrote:Those children were going to be infected with western propaganda from the vaccine workers/American spies. They know it's true because Bin Laden.

Seriously though, there were concerns of using a doctor to look for Bin Laden under the guise of the spy program, though I'm not sure how much can be attributed to that as opposed to Western hatred in general.


Also, how many of your regular people in western world really know how and why vaccination is generally safe and effective in doing its stated purpose, other than they trust the doctors and other authorities? If they actually have a good idea about viruses and human immunity system and whatnot, what is those people's education level? Formal or informal? How many of those who have the same education level as those who have a grasp of that stuff works still do worry or could be worried about e.g. that vaccination could cause $somethingbad? (Heck, I kinda do, at least if they're particular flu vaccines by Glaxo-Smith-Kline. The relevant authorities here in Finland agree the 2009 swine flu vaccination program caused a minor narcolepsy epidemic, as the vaccine used here (especially the adjuvant was suspected) apparently triggered the illness in some 4-19 year old genetically so predisposed, and has paid compensation to 150 or so patients. I personally got vaccinated then and thought the talk about children getting ill was laughable nonsense.)

Now, I'm taking the wild guess the education the general public in Pakistan isn't substantially better than in a typical Western country, and have no idea how much the populace there trust their government to be benevolent and capable in being benevolent. That the U.S./Western forces can (and do) bomb people and places, in manner that may look like somewhat erratic, with flying drones must not help*, I figure. Then the word comes around these doctors and medical personnel (they are mostly Pakistani I understand, though?) doing this 'Western' vaccination thing are up to no good? When there's some talk that its really a US government plot that they used to kill bin Laden? Even if majority of people would act in a what XKCD forumites would likely call sensible (get vaccinated, or at least not kill/mutilate the doctors and who those get vaccinated), add some religious fundamentalists (we've got enough of threads here in xkcd on how bleak things may get in peaceful first world countries when they're involved) and what one could very well call lunatics, and these fundamentalists have weapons, political motivation and a number of followers not to be ignored, then the result is this kind of stuff happens.

Maybe 'western hatred' summarizes it, but I'm inclined to believe that 'they just hate all things Western so much' isn't the whole picture. Of course, I'm not expert on Pakistan politics and tend to read about this stuff only in newspapers.
Spoiler:
*(Little offtopic, but I started to wonder: What is it like to be bombed by UAVs, anyway? How it differs (from psychological viewpoint) from the war that's clearly a War, not just state of being bombed at times? I personally associate 'air strikes' with something more like what you'd call WWII imagery, air sirens, running into bomb shelter and hoping not to burn alive there, whistling of a falling bomb - though did they really do that kind of sound or does it only happen in films? - and also some of the Cold War variation of same theme, nuclear weapons and stuff, on the top of that. I guess the drone attacks are totally different. Can you hear or see the drone in the sky before it fire its missiles, or is the attack totally unexpected until there's the explosion? Are the drones seen ...buzzing, or doing what kind of sound they make around in the sky often or just when they attack? Or am I just speculating too much.)

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6813
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:14 am UTC

US/West unpopular in Pakistan:
http://www.pewglobal.org/2011/06/21/u-s ... n-killing/
Why the hell am I providing a citation for this? The US is very unpopular in Pakistan cuz you know, drone strikes, religious extremism, and that Afghanistan business next door.

There's been suspicion of vaccine programs across several muslim countries before Bin Laden died, so it's not implausible that the mutilation was an outburst of that strain of thinking.
Also, that doctor would never come back, because he would be killed for being a collaborator with the West. Don't you remember him being arrested for a charge completely unrelated to his cooperation with the CIA?

Getting killed by the drones is pretty similar to terrorism. You gather for an occasion, any occasion like a wedding or a funeral. Is it a terrorist funeral? Doesn't matter, whenever you walk outside you never know in the back of your head if you're gonna die that day. The explosion comes out of nowhere, kill a bunch of people. The people nearby scramble to rescue them, at which point another missile is fired at the rescuers.

User avatar
Vahir
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:20 pm UTC
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Vahir » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:15 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:
This is what comes of an ideology which conceives of everything western as axiomatically evil.


Did you miss the part where there was, in fact, a secret CIA program to use fake vaccinations to find and target its enemies? One that has been acknowledged by everyone involved?

I put a lot of this with the doctor who violated medical ethics and his own oath and ran a fake vaccination program. He has undermined the trust of vaccinations among hundreds of millions of people, and a lot of people are going to die of preventative disease as a result.


Did you miss the part where they cut off the arms of children?

I understand suspicion and mistrust. I do NOT understand mutilating children.

Edit: Besides, how is this different from using vaccines to track down a serial killer?

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:55 pm UTC

You don't understand the cutting off of the arms and legs because you exist in an "advanced society". The CIA should have, and they lit this particular fuse. Vaccinations are a hard sell in less advanced parts of the world for whatever reasons. Misusing vaccinations increases the general level of mistrust and allows radicals to subvert the programs, branding them as western conspiracies. What makes it even worse is that Pakistan is a place where polio is still endemic. And it seems to be moving to places where it had been eradicated. New cases have been reported in Syria. Polio is a nasty disease, imagine for a moment if you could no longer breathe for yourself and had to live in one of these.
Image
An Emerson iron lung. The patient lies within the chamber, which when sealed provides an effectively oscillating atmospheric pressure. This particular machine was donated to the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention Museum by the family of poliomyelitis patient Barton Hebert of Covington, Louisiana, who had used the device from the late 1950s until his death in 2003.
Someone in the CIA should be prosecuted.

User avatar
davidstarlingm
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:33 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:06 pm UTC

The arms-cutting-off was a quote from a fictional movie, right? Please?

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10548
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:50 pm UTC

Blood diamond. You can pretend it was only in the movie Blood Diamond.

Which is based on what actually happens to kids in the DRC.

User avatar
davidstarlingm
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:33 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:06 pm UTC

But that in specific is a quote from Apocalypse Now, right?

Which is still making me sick to think about it.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10548
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:11 pm UTC

Quick question. If the arm is removed, is the kid still properly vaccinated? Assuming they survive amputation by what is likely not a licensed surgeon, without anaesthetic and antiseptic, likely resulting in gangrene?

User avatar
davidstarlingm
Posts: 1255
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 4:33 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:17 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Quick question. If the arm is removed, is the kid still properly vaccinated? Assuming they survive amputation by what is likely not a licensed surgeon, without anaesthetic and antiseptic, likely resulting in gangrene?

**is sick to my stomach**

Depends on whether it was a bloodstream injection or an intramuscular injection. The former will reach steady state in the bloodstream within two or three minutes; an intramuscular injection (e.g. most modern vaccinations) can take much longer to reach steady state.

User avatar
EMTP
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Jul 22, 2009 7:39 pm UTC
Location: Elbow deep in (mostly) other people's blood.

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby EMTP » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:20 pm UTC

Vahir wrote:
Did you miss the part where they cut off the arms of children?

I understand suspicion and mistrust. I do NOT understand mutilating children.


You are confusing the recent attacks on polio workers with the fictional story from Apocalypse Now.

Edit: Besides, how is this different from using vaccines to track down a serial killer?


The use of physicians and medical programs for the purpose of uncovering patients' secrets and turning them over to the authorities destroys the trust health care workers need to do their jobs. That's why it has been a taboo in medicine for the last 2,400 years:

What I may see or hear in the course of the treatment or even outside of the treatment in regard to the life of men, which on no account one must spread abroad, I will keep to myself holding such things shameful to be spoken about.


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hippocrati ... _version_1

I will respect the secrets that are confided in me, even after the patient has died


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Declaration_of_Geneva
"Reasonable – that is, human – men will always be capable of compromise, but men who have dehumanized themselves by becoming the blind worshipers of an idea or an ideal are fanatics whose devotion to abstractions makes them the enemies of life."
-- Alan Watts, "The Way of Zen"

User avatar
Vahir
Posts: 456
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2012 7:20 pm UTC
Location: Ontario, Canada

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Vahir » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:24 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
Vahir wrote:
Did you miss the part where they cut off the arms of children?

I understand suspicion and mistrust. I do NOT understand mutilating children.


You are confusing the recent attacks on polio workers with the fictional story from Apocalypse Now.


Ach; That's what I get for misreading posts.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6813
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:12 pm UTC

Should we feel bad for assuming that the multilation actually happened in Pakistan?

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Derek » Wed Dec 18, 2013 9:41 pm UTC

Oh wow, I totally misread that post too. I assumed the quote was an extract from the article, not from the book/movie.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Wed Dec 18, 2013 10:30 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Should we feel bad for assuming that the multilation actually happened in Pakistan?
No. They are bloody enough. But then so are we.

Possible source.
Hochschild proposes that Conrad's model was the Belgian colonialist Léon Rom, station chief at Stanley Falls, an amateur painter and a butterfly collector who kept a ring of African skulls around his flower garden.

The theft of the Congo by King Leopold of Belgium is a story of nearly unparalleled evil. (I'd heard about it the same way Hochschild did, by reading a Mark Twain political pamphlet, "King Leopold's Soliloquy," a short work that tested even Twain's ability to retrieve something laughable about human degradation.)

Hochschild describes the exploitation of the Congolese by Europeans in search of wild rubber. Seeking out the goods meant slavery, enforced with rifles. To save bullets, Leopold's Belgian officers demanded that their native troops bring back a human hand for every person killed, to ensure the soldiers weren't wasting their ammunition for hunting. The severed hand became the emblem of the European atrocities against the Africans.

User avatar
Ormurinn
Posts: 1033
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Suth Eoferwicscire

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Ormurinn » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:15 pm UTC

EMTP wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:
This is what comes of an ideology which conceives of everything western as axiomatically evil.


Did you miss the part where there was, in fact, a secret CIA program to use fake vaccinations to find and target its enemies? One that has been acknowledged by everyone involved?

I put a lot of this with the doctor who violated medical ethics and his own oath and ran a fake vaccination program. He has undermined the trust of vaccinations among hundreds of millions of people, and a lot of people are going to die of preventative disease as a result.


Source wrote:"31 people have been killed in Taliban-led attacks on anti-polio campaigners in Pakistan"


I'm putting it on the Taliban.

It's in their interest to victimise aid workers regardless of whatever CIA program - can't have the west actually improving people's lives or they lose the propaganda war.

Do you really think this level of violence is due to one doctor helping out in a HUMINT campaign, rather than a pervasive anti-western attitude backed by intimidation?

Source wrote:Some Pakistanis refuse to have their children vaccinated because they believe that it is "un-Islamic"


Seems pretty anti-western to me. Even if there are conspiracy theories about aid workers taking hold due to the Hep-B programme being manipulated, those theories only have traction in an anti-western mileu.

I apologise for any confusion regarding the apocalypse ow quote - it just sprang to mind. I though I'd made it clear that it wasn't from the article.
"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:50 pm UTC

The confusion lies on the shoulders of people who didn't look closely enough at the quote, myself included.

The Taliban are what they are. The CIA is either better than them or they are not. Currently the money is that they aren't. Torture, kidnappings and rendition, and increasing the risk for aid workers in a already risky place. I might feel differently if they hadn't acted outside the law before.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10548
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:51 pm UTC

At worst, the CIA is running a Cyberpunk dystopia. The Taliban, at best, is trying to implement a brutal theocracy that exterminates all dissent.

I'll take the cyberpunk dystopia over the theocracy, thank you very much.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6813
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:03 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:At worst, the CIA is running a Cyberpunk dystopia. The Taliban, at best, is trying to implement a brutal theocracy that exterminates all dissent.

I'll take the cyberpunk dystopia over the theocracy, thank you very much.

Who are the runners then? Blackwater?

PS Real world shadowrun makes me sad inside.

nitePhyyre
Posts: 1280
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 10:31 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby nitePhyyre » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:35 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I'll take the cyberpunk dystopia over the theocracy, thank you very much.
I disagree! Cyberpunk dystopias tend to embrace tech, theocracies don't. When you have ubiquitous cameras, drones, drone soldiers, and legally mandated gps tracking chips implanted into your brain with a killswitch, overthrowing that government is really, really hard.
sourmìlk wrote:Monopolies are not when a single company controls the market for a single product.

You don't become great by trying to be great. You become great by wanting to do something, and then doing it so hard you become great in the process.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6813
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:49 pm UTC

But tech is awesome. Do you dare defy Machinus, the machine god? Heretic!!

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Thu Dec 19, 2013 10:55 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:At worst, the CIA is running a Cyberpunk dystopia. The Taliban, at best, is trying to implement a brutal theocracy that exterminates all dissent.

I'll take the cyberpunk dystopia over the theocracy, thank you very much.
There is the easy way and the hard way. You can shoot a deer in the field or you can feed a cow grain and have it walk willingly to the slaughter house. The result is the same. Meat for dinner.

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10548
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:26 pm UTC

But the Cyberpunk dystopia has sexbots. Sexbots! Female sexbots! The theocracy has genital mutilation. Genital mutilation! Female genital mutilation!

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Fri Dec 20, 2013 1:37 am UTC

Obviously you will not be shot in a field. Would an inflatable doll be close enough to a sexbot?

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10331
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby addams » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:49 am UTC

Angua wrote:http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/features/2013/12/pakistan-polio-workers-targeted-killing-201312118364851379.html

This has been going on for a while, and is a pretty sad state of affairs. I thought this claim was interesting though -
After news emerged that the US' Central Intelligence Agency employed a doctor to run a fake hepatitis B vaccination programme in an effort to find Osama bin Laden, conspiracy theories about health workers' activities have abounded - such as claims that vaccinators mark houses to be targeted by US drones. Polio workers have been accused of being CIA operatives, and the campaign has suffered incalculable damage.


These healthcare workers who continue to try to get vaccines out to the vulnerable definitely deserve all the praise that they can get.

This is Rant worthy news.
This article seems to contain information that could very well be true.

Fuck you.
Fuck us.
Just; Fuck!

It does not Have To be this way!
We were The Good Guys! What the fuck happened to us?
Nothing? It is all Public Relations?! No! I don't think so!

First; Polio is a real threat world wide. Polio has not gone away.
Polio is easy and cheep to prevent. The Polio vaccine is oral.
So non-invasive. A little sweet liquid.

Polio matters, because it matters. Polio can attack adults.
Yes. We are hardwired to reach out to the children.
The adults are people, too.

Second; And more importantly; We did what?
What did we do? We. Us. What did we do?

We went into another nation and did What?!
I am having a difficult time with this.

We were the Good Guys. Our Medical Personal were Trusted.
The fucking Americans have attacked the people by making them afraid of the people that help them!?
That is fucked up. I was medical. I loved being trusted. We can do good things. Our people have acted in a way that hurts us and them.

Fuck us. We did what?
We used medical teams?
We used medical teams and medical uniforms to do bad things?
We went into another nation and did one little bad thing and now we are angry at them for not trusting us?

Fuck us!

The superstitions of the ignorant people really should be addressed.
We should begin with the white lower class of the US.
They can be reached via FOX News.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

User avatar
Diadem
Posts: 5654
Joined: Wed Jun 11, 2008 11:03 am UTC
Location: The Netherlands

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Diadem » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:47 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:At worst, the CIA is running a Cyberpunk dystopia. The Taliban, at best, is trying to implement a brutal theocracy that exterminates all dissent.

This is true. But the difference in scale is relevant. At worst, the Taliban are a fringe group that can kill a few people at a time with suicide bombings. The US government, at best, is an entity that has killed millions without a single regret. The US government is indubitably the lesser of the two evils. But it commits this lesser evil on a far greater scale.


Also, are jokes about genital mutilation really necessary?
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
- Bernard Woolley in Yes, Prime Minister

User avatar
CorruptUser
Posts: 10548
Joined: Fri Nov 06, 2009 10:12 pm UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:06 pm UTC

Yes, but only because it's a serious fucking issue. I mean holy shit the Taliban is mutilating baby vaginas because they believe it's a terrible sin for women to be happy (unless they are happy to be slaves to a man); you can't get more obviously evil than that.

User avatar
sardia
Posts: 6813
Joined: Sat Apr 03, 2010 3:39 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby sardia » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:23 pm UTC

Female mutilation, and the associated sexism, isn't isolated to Pakistan's relgious extremists. It occurs in Africa as well.

User avatar
Ormurinn
Posts: 1033
Joined: Tue Apr 03, 2012 3:42 pm UTC
Location: Suth Eoferwicscire

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Ormurinn » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:32 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Female mutilation, and the associated sexism, isn't isolated to Pakistan's relgious extremists. It occurs in Africa as well.


It does seem to be restricted solely to extremist muslim-dominated areas though;

Reliance of the Traveller wrote:Circumcision is obligatory (for every male and female) by cutting off the piece of skin on the glans of the penis of the male, but circumcision of the female is by cutting out the clitoris (Bazr)(this is called Hufaad)


That's for Shafi'i jurispudence. From the Hadith we have;

Ahmad Ibn Hanbal wrote:Abu al- Malih ibn `Usama's father relates that the Prophet said: "Circumcision is a law for men and a preservation of honour for women."


and from modern fatwas;

Shaykh Jaad al-Haqq ‘Ali Jaad al-Haqq wrote:"From the above it is clear that the circumcision of girls – which is the topic under discussion here – is part of the fitrah of Islam... It is not right to abandon his (Mohammed's) teachings for the view of anyone else, even if that is a doctor, because medicine is knowledge and knowledge is always developing and changing."


Shaykh ‘Atiyah Saqar wrote:"Female circumcision is either obligatory or recommended"


Dar al-Ifta’ al-Misriyyah wrote:it is clear that female circumcision is prescribed in Islam, and that it is one of the Sunnahs of the fitrah and it has a good effect of moderating the individual’s behaviour


It may not be isolated to the Pakistani Taliban - but it is in the main encouraged by their ideology.
"Progress" - Technological advances masking societal decay.

User avatar
addams
Posts: 10331
Joined: Sun Sep 12, 2010 4:44 am UTC
Location: Oregon Coast: 97444

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby addams » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:26 pm UTC

How did this thread go so far astray?
Polio? To A fairly serious surgical procedure.
In one page. What are you accusing the Pakistani people of?

Having some gang members on Motorcycle murder two woman?
Yes. It does seem that the Pakistani people might be guilty of that.

The Female Gentile Mutilations are a separate Topic and that subject might need more Moderation.
Who knows What about the subject? This is not the place for that conversation.

What do you want to know about it? It is possible to start a Thread in SB that addresses the subject.
The Title of this one is Polio. Some women died for a Rumor. Many women have died for a Rumor.

They said "Witch".
Look at the evidence.
People get sick; She shows up.
She never gets sick. She's a "Witch".


They did not call the girls in Pakistan 'Witch". Did they?
Who killed those two Girls? Some nameless, faceless men with motorcycles.

A Gang? They have Gangs, too?
Health Care Providers? People that are humble and good.
They hire people that are prideful and bad to kill people that are humble and good?

You want to look at mutilated female genitalia? Why?
Is it easier to look at that than to look at Death by Bullet? Why?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

morriswalters
Posts: 7073
Joined: Thu Jun 03, 2010 12:21 am UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby morriswalters » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:37 pm UTC

The statement was this.
CorruptUser wrote:I mean holy shit the Taliban is mutilating baby vaginas because they believe it's a terrible sin for women to be happy (unless they are happy to be slaves to a man); you can't get more obviously evil than that.
Ormurinn's response begs the question. The question would be, is this a function of the existence of the Taliban or merely a product of some branches of Islam? If you accept CorruptUser's definition of evil then you effectively assert that large parts of conservative Islam is evil. I am for one, not prepared to make that leap.

Tyndmyr
Posts: 11443
Joined: Wed Jul 25, 2012 8:38 pm UTC

Re: Pakistan polio workers targeted

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 20, 2013 8:50 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:The statement was this.
CorruptUser wrote:I mean holy shit the Taliban is mutilating baby vaginas because they believe it's a terrible sin for women to be happy (unless they are happy to be slaves to a man); you can't get more obviously evil than that.
Ormurinn's response begs the question. The question would be, is this a function of the existence of the Taliban or merely a product of some branches of Islam? If you accept CorruptUser's definition of evil then you effectively assert that large parts of conservative Islam is evil. I am for one, not prepared to make that leap.


So, you're disbeliving the argument because you don't like where it logically leads? That...isn't a terribly persuasive argument. A truth does not become false merely because it is uncomfortable.

I am quite comfortable asserting that any religion that requires mutilation to prevent happiness is evil.


Return to “News & Articles”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 21 guests