Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

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davidstarlingm
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:27 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:The world is fucked.
Maybe, but I intend to keep going until it explodes in my face. But what I don't and won't do is to expect that everything can be fixed. I currently settle for doing the best we can, and learning to live with the rest. Most days that works.

As do I. But agnosticism is seeming more and more attractive.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:48 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:It's impossible to maintain "innocent until proven guilty" without effectively accusing a rape victim of being a slut.
It's impossible for CPS to be able to protect abused children without completely obliterating parental autonomy.
It's impossible for women to have legitimate, fair control over their own bodies without defining some set of viable infants as nonpersons.
It's impossible to build safety nets for people in poverty while maintaining a free market and not screw something up.
It's impossible to promote freedom of thought and belief without nutters convincing people to harm themselves.

The world is fucked.


I think the problem is just that you don't live in Sweden.

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davidstarlingm
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Tue Dec 17, 2013 6:50 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:It's impossible to maintain "innocent until proven guilty" without effectively accusing a rape victim of being a slut.
It's impossible for CPS to be able to protect abused children without completely obliterating parental autonomy.
It's impossible for women to have legitimate, fair control over their own bodies without defining some set of viable infants as nonpersons.
It's impossible to build safety nets for people in poverty while maintaining a free market and not screw something up.
It's impossible to promote freedom of thought and belief without nutters convincing people to harm themselves.

The world is fucked.


I think the problem is just that you don't live in Sweden.

**favorites this**

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Heisenberg » Tue Dec 17, 2013 7:39 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:It's impossible to maintain "innocent until proven guilty" without effectively accusing a rape victim of being a slut.
It's impossible for CPS to be able to protect abused children without completely obliterating parental autonomy.
It's impossible for women to have legitimate, fair control over their own bodies without defining some set of viable infants as nonpersons.
It's impossible to build safety nets for people in poverty while maintaining a free market and not screw something up.
It's impossible to promote freedom of thought and belief without nutters convincing people to harm themselves.

The world is fucked.

Holy balls, dude. Go play with a puppy until you feel better.

I'm pretty sure we can do all of these things as long we don't give in to apathy and nihilism.

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davidstarlingm
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:37 pm UTC

Heisenberg wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:It's impossible to maintain "innocent until proven guilty" without effectively accusing a rape victim of being a slut.
It's impossible for CPS to be able to protect abused children without completely obliterating parental autonomy.
It's impossible for women to have legitimate, fair control over their own bodies without defining some set of viable infants as nonpersons.
It's impossible to build safety nets for people in poverty while maintaining a free market and not screw something up.
It's impossible to promote freedom of thought and belief without nutters convincing people to harm themselves.

The world is fucked.

Holy balls, dude. Go play with a puppy until you feel better.

I'm pretty sure we can do all of these things as long we don't give in to apathy and nihilism.

Heh. Sorry, my life is pretty fucked right now as it is, so I'm inclined to take a more nihilistic approach to things.

Though this has been building for a while.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:40 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:
morriswalters wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:The world is fucked.
Maybe, but I intend to keep going until it explodes in my face. But what I don't and won't do is to expect that everything can be fixed. I currently settle for doing the best we can, and learning to live with the rest. Most days that works.

As do I. But agnosticism is seeming more and more attractive.


Oh, the world is messed up. It has ALWAYS been messed up, though, because people are crazy. Things have improved, though. It takes hard work and what not, but I'd rather be living now than a hundred years ago. More improvement is still to be accomplished, sure, but things would be a bit boring if everything had already been done.

I do hope things improve for you, though.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby ucim » Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:48 am UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:I can certainly cite studies. My primary evidence, admittedly, is extensive personal experience with hundreds of children who were raised (to varying degrees) with the same philosophy my parents used.
And was that a tap on the behind, or beating with sticks?

davidstarlingm wrote:The world, honestly, is fucked...
No, the world is complicated. There's a difference.

davidstarlingm wrote:I gave no dichotomy. A dichotomy implies a choice between multiple alternatives, but I was simply asserting that any motivation-by-pain, no matter how slight, carries a non-negligible risk of producing fear and distrust and a sense of betrayal. No choice being presented at all. You're free to take exception to my assertion, of course.
Well, you wrote...
davidstarlingm wrote:If there's a chance that using even a slight amount of pain to motivate your child could make your child feel fearful, distrustful, and betrayed, wouldn't you want to try to find another approach?
... which implies that "even a slight amount of pain" is sufficiently bad to warrant another approach. The dichotomy is "no pain at all" vs. "even a slight amount of pain". This sounds suspiciously absolute, and (by implication) equates a mild whack on the behind with broken ribs. There is an important gradation which your statement glosses over.

There are consequences to behavior. Those consequences do not always show up naturally, nor do natural consequences always show up soon enough for children to learn from them. Parents must therefore provide artificial consequences in order to train the child, so that the hard knocks they recieve now save them from the much harder knocks they'd receive later in the real world. This is pretty much the definition of punishment.

Punishment for its own sake is, of course, evil.

But punishment for the sake of teaching is not necessarily evil. It then becomes a question of balancing just what it is that is being taught, against the side effects of the teaching methods. It takes a humane parent to make good calls most of the time, and that's all we can expect of human beings. Government does not have the same stake in a child that a parent does, and has far less motivation to care. Things have to get pretty extreme before I'm comfortable letting government bureaucracy get involved with raising children.
Spoiler:
Yes, things sometimes do get extreme. But that is a judgement call, not a zero tolerance rule.
You brought up your personal experience - from what I've read it involves what you were being taught as much as it involved how you were being taught it. It would be disingenuous to disregard that first part, as it may well be more important than the second part, which this thread is focused on.

It is also disingenuous to ignore the side effects of government's involvement in rearing children - taking them from their home, their parents, their siblings, their friends... I do not have first-hand experience with state-sponsored foster care, but I do not think it's roses and feathers. The very act of getting the state involved causes damage from the getgo, and not only to the target child, but to their siblings, and also to their parents and extended family. They count too. So, the situation had better be pretty bad to begin with before getting the state involved, or the net damage will be greater.

Jose
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Chen » Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:48 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:I can certainly cite studies. My primary evidence, admittedly, is extensive personal experience with hundreds of children who were raised (to varying degrees) with the same philosophy my parents used.


Yeah I wasn't precise with what I meant here. You mentioned that "any motivation-by-pain, no matter how slight, carries a non-negligible risk..." My contention was both the non-negligible risk and the no matter how slight part. Tapping a hand or even a spank on the bottom seems unlikely to carry that high a risk of the emotional damage you mentioned. While my experience is anecdotal as well, I've seen plenty of children/families who used this type of corporal punishment and turned out fine. I'm not talking constant beatings or the like, and I feel that motivation by pain, when it IS slight, carries less risk than you're implying.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Cleverbeans » Wed Dec 18, 2013 5:56 pm UTC

Chen wrote:Tapping a hand or even a spank on the bottom seems unlikely to carry that high a risk of the emotional damage you mentioned. While my experience is anecdotal as well, I've seen plenty of children/families who used this type of corporal punishment and turned out fine. I'm not talking constant beatings or the like, and I feel that motivation by pain, when it IS slight, carries less risk than you're implying.


I don't want to invalidate your experience, because some kids who experience corporate punishment are in fact just fine later in life. However many people are not, especially those with a predisposition for mental illness. My brother and I are a good example, we were both spanked as children and not in an "unhealthy" way but, by the time I started school had learned that adults were very dangerous, violent and not to be trusted. The anxiety and paranoia this created for me was a serious danger to myself and other around me, and I didn't get a handle on it till I was an adult. I still have flashbacks and nightmares about spanking, but my brother doesn't. In fact, he's basically fine - it's just me. So while it's true that some children will not be significantly negatively impacted by corporal punishment, others can be devastated and have lifelong problems as a result. There is a growing body of evidence that spanking provides essentially no benefit, and can cause significant harm which is why many countries have started to ban the practice.
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby sardia » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:02 pm UTC

Like people have previously stated, punishment does not have to mean pain and suffering. People don't understand behaviorialism and misapply its concepts. Denying someone the pleasure of socializing with friends, that's a punishment, if and only if it causes the behavior in question to occur less often. After several punishments, and the behavior doesn't get "better" it's not a punishment, and you should stop and reevaluate. The failure to appreciate what punishments and rewards actually are lead people to foolish drivel like the book in this thread.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:03 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:I can certainly cite studies. My primary evidence, admittedly, is extensive personal experience with hundreds of children who were raised (to varying degrees) with the same philosophy my parents used.
And was that a tap on the behind, or beating with sticks?

The whole gambit. Full spectrum.

There are two factors....on the one hand, there's a clear monotonic relationship between the severity of "discipline" and the chance of developing serious problems like PTSD and so forth. However, there's a baseline effect where any motivation-by-violence runs the risk of breaking the child's trust in the parent. I think a good argument can be made that parents need to be seen as safe, no matter what.

ucim wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:If there's a chance that using even a slight amount of pain to motivate your child could make your child feel fearful, distrustful, and betrayed, wouldn't you want to try to find another approach?
... which implies that "even a slight amount of pain" is sufficiently bad to warrant another approach. The dichotomy is "no pain at all" vs. "even a slight amount of pain".

I certainly didn't say that all instances of physical punishment will invariably result in permanent and irreparable damage. I said that any use of physical punishment carries a risk of producing an unacceptable baseline level of distrust, apart from the proportional risk of going to extremes. Obviously there's a sliding scale of risk; I'm just arguing that the scale doesn't actually start at zero.

ucim wrote:There are consequences to behavior. Those consequences do not always show up naturally, nor do natural consequences always show up soon enough for children to learn from them. Parents must therefore provide artificial consequences in order to train the child, so that the hard knocks they recieve now save them from the much harder knocks they'd receive later in the real world.

If hard knocks are the only artificial/accelerated consequences parents can come up with, I think that speaks to a lack of creativity, a lack of empathy, or simply a lack of education in parenting.

ucim wrote:It takes a humane parent to make good calls most of the time, and that's all we can expect of human beings. Government does not have the same stake in a child that a parent does, and has far less motivation to care. Things have to get pretty extreme before I'm comfortable letting government bureaucracy get involved with raising children.

I'm actually not a fan of letting government get overly involved in raising children.

ucim wrote:You brought up your personal experience - from what I've read it involves what you were being taught as much as it involved how you were being taught it.

And one of the whats was the notion that children require punitive physical correction in order to eliminate willful behavior and reach their fullest potential. Which is much more than a purely religious ideology.

Chen wrote:You mentioned that "any motivation-by-pain, no matter how slight, carries a non-negligible risk..." My contention was both the non-negligible risk and the no matter how slight part. Tapping a hand or even a spank on the bottom seems unlikely to carry that high a risk of the emotional damage you mentioned. While my experience is anecdotal as well, I've seen plenty of children/families who used this type of corporal punishment and turned out fine. I'm not talking constant beatings or the like, and I feel that motivation by pain, when it IS slight, carries less risk than you're implying.

I'm making no specific claim as to the degree of risk corresponding to any specific level of punishment. Speaking of "chance of risk" should automatically imply "complementary chance of no risk" which is quite consistent with anecdotes shared by you and others.

What I believe parents need to recognize is that although the use of punitive physical discipline may not cause any harm at all, it isn't a variable they don't necessarily have control over. It's a risk you accept if you're going to hit your kid at all. Most importantly, the parent's underlying intent in using physical discipline has little or no correlation on its own to the baseline risk of emotional trauma/harm. Smacking my kid's hand when he reaches for a hot stove (as common-sense as this might be) carries the same risk of shock/betrayal/distrust regardless of whether I'm doing so out of anger/frustration or concern/alarm. Expecting that children (especially very young ones) should be capable of understanding our motives and responding accordingly is a subtle but very worrisome form of victim-blaming.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby ucim » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:52 am UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:
ucim wrote:And was that a tap on the behind, or beating with sticks?
The whole gambit. Full spectrum.
It seems obvious that severe beatings would make you afraid of a tap on the behind, but in this case it is the severe beatings that are producing the harm, not the tap in and of itself. One of the harms the beatings cause is the Skinner-type reaction to a light tap. This is where trust is broken.

Yes, if all a parent does is punish, something is very wrong. But that's not what I'm advocating. I'm advocating that we not support a zero tolerance policy towards light taps on the behind. And as for the negative consequences of a (mild) spanking, the entire rest of (good) parenting will heal that. Bad parenting might not, but then the damage is not the spanking, it is the overall gestalt of bad parenting (whatever that may be).

So, it's important not to focus on a token. That's like conflating being pushy on a date, with rape. One is simply rude and boorish, the other is criminal assault.

davidstarlingm wrote:Smacking my kid's hand when he reaches for a hot stove (as common-sense as this might be) carries the same risk of shock/betrayal/distrust regardless of whether I'm doing so out of anger/frustration or concern/alarm.
No, I don't think that's true at all. I think the child is capable of discerning the mood behind a parent's actions, and eventually putting the whole thing together. And don't forget that not spanking the child in that particular case carries the risk that the child is not house-proofed soon enough, and burns himself severely one day.

Jose
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby addams » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:34 am UTC

Ech. The example you used of a child burning its self, if not disciplined reminds me of a True Story.

My Cousin, Alice, was a real piece of work.
People are born who they are. I swear!

Same environment, same every thing;
One child is a sensitive responsive little saint.
The next child drives its parents to Jesus or drink; Sometimes both.

Alice, My Cousin, had been talked to. She had been spanked.
All the discipline did not help. She liked fire.

No one would let her play with fire out in the open.
So; Alice went into a closet in our GrandMother's Home.

She got a little fire going that she could not control.
Like the child she was, she made a choice.

She could have gone to an adult, but she knew they would over react.
She went outside to play, instead.

The way I heard the story, multiple people could smell 'Something'.
Finely someone opened the closet door. Alice's little fire had been smoldering for a while.

When the door was opened, the fire got the air it needed. The house burned very quickly, they said.
If the children do not feel safe with the adults, it can be dangerous for children and adults.

Hey! There is good news! Alice got over being a FireBug and she got a little case of PSTD.
Alice's PSTD was a shared gift. GrandMa lost everything she owned and gained PSTD, too.

Religion may or may not teach people how to make little people into fine big people.
Religion will, sometimes, teach fine big people how to be Saint like.

Without a good Christian upbringing, GrandMa might have killed Alice.
You never met GrandMa! Without Christianity, that would have been a frightening woman.

She was an attention getter even with Christian Modesty. Without it? Only God knows.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Thu Dec 19, 2013 3:11 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:
ucim wrote:And was that a tap on the behind, or beating with sticks?
The whole gambit. Full spectrum.
It seems obvious that severe beatings would make you afraid of a tap on the behind, but in this case it is the severe beatings that are producing the harm, not the tap in and of itself.

I mean there was a whole spectrum of parenting styles, all the way from parents who only tapped to parents who went all the way up. But all had the same baseline.

ucim wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:Smacking my kid's hand when he reaches for a hot stove (as common-sense as this might be) carries the same risk of shock/betrayal/distrust regardless of whether I'm doing so out of anger/frustration or concern/alarm.
No, I don't think that's true at all. I think the child is capable of discerning the mood behind a parent's actions, and eventually putting the whole thing together.

Now, I may be overly sensitive, but this feels a lot like victim-blaming. It shouldn't be the child's responsibility to figure everything out about the parent's motives and thus avoid sustaining emotional trauma. That sort of victim blaming gives parents license to say, "It's not my fault; he should have known I was doing it for his own good." As many people have pointed out, not all children respond to violence in the same way. Just because spanking didn't seem to hurt one child doesn't mean it won't hurt another one. I don't think parents should trust themselves to be able to figure something like that out in advance.

ucim wrote:Don't forget that not spanking the child in that particular case carries the risk that the child is not house-proofed soon enough, and burns himself severely one day.

This is a really false dichotomy, because it assumes that nothing the parent could possibly do would have the same risk-mitigative effect as spanking.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby addams » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:53 pm UTC

Spanking is not always a punishment.
There are Ritualized Spankings that are not punishment.

I think it is fun and funny.
According to an Old FairTail,
Children are all Spanked Soundly and Sent to Bed.


There was an old woman
who lived in a shoe
She had so many children
She didn’t know what to do
She gave them some broth
Without any bread,
And spanked them all soundly
And sent them to bed.


I know it sounds horrible.
It is a night time Mantra.

For some children going to bed is a major fucking deal.
One child can be so many children a person does not know what to do.

"I'm Hungry." They beg with big sad eyes.
Every night they want a before bed meal. Get used to it Mom and Dad.

It's called desert.
Some nights it might be Broth without bread.

That little tune can help Children that have no parents to help them go to bed.
The words get changed to fit the conditions.

The words have been changed in many homes.
In many homes the words are completely unknown.
http://www.poetryfoundation.org/article/177973

That poem is not the correct poem for children that fall asleep at the table with their faces in the food.
There must be a poem, just for them.

Rock a Bye Baby? Maybe?
Rock-a-Bye Baby; In the Tree Top.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rock-a-bye_Baby

“Rockabye Baby, in the treetop
Don't you know a treetop
is no safe place to rock?
And who put you up there,
and your cradle too?
Baby,
I think someone down here
has got it in for you!”

by Shel Silverstein


Violent Bed Time Spankings? Or; Line them up.
Check them each. Hair Up? ok Teeth Brushed? ok
PJ's clean and on right side out? ok

Spank that one. Next!
Abusive? ech. maybe.

I knew a child that was so hard to put to bed,
I simply turned off all the lights.

I was an Adult! I could reach the Breaker Box!
Jesus Christ! It would make that child mad!

I could get away from her in the dark. So funny.
That did it. She would go to sleep. So would I!

Were you difficult, too? Poor you!
They spanked you until you cried yourself to sleep?
Every night until you got the clue? Did you ever get the clue?

I lived in a home like that, too. Transgressions were punished with extreme measures.
I lived there quite a while before I discovered that Truth. You?

Apparently you were Horrible! What did you do?
You get to swap stories with your Christian Upbringing Friends from the Private Christian Homeschooling League?

You are a lucky man. You are a man. correct?
I met some young women that had parents that were physically present, sometimes and intellectually absent often.
Those two girls had to figure so many things out all by themselves.

Some times they got wrong answers. They often Nailed It!
Not all children are as trustworthy as those two were as children.
Not all young adults are as trustworthy as those to women are.

Have you over come the tortured in compulsions?
What were you compelled to do under threat of physical torture?

Brush your teeth and go to Bed! Did they have to strip you at the door?
Did you and you dog come home covered with Poision Oak oil and get on your sister's bed?

You parents may have spanked you to prevent your sister from exacting punishment.
Vengeance is mine. sayith the parent.

"I spanked him. You leave him alone!"
jeeze. Did you have Poison Oak, too?

Siblings can be as much or more of a danger to a child than parents that punish minor transgressions.
"Dad swatted me for stepping on the Cat. Fuck Dad."

Did your Sister chase you into the bathroom and threaten to kill you if you ever come out?
Was she waiting? What did your parents do to help?

Oh, Children; I have heard some funny stories.
She looks like an Angel?

You are lucky if all the children had some fear of at least some adult, somewhere.
Hence; Jesus. or; God, if you will.

Everyone bow to the One True King.
He will get you, if your Brother does not live through the beating?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby ucim » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:19 am UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:I mean there was a whole spectrum of parenting styles, all the way from parents who only tapped to parents who went all the way up. But all had the same baseline.
I don't know what that means.

davidstarlingm wrote:Now, I may be overly sensitive, but this feels a lot like victim-blaming. It shouldn't be the child's responsibility to figure everything out about the parent's motives and thus avoid sustaining emotional trauma.
I'm not blaming anybody. But it is disingenuous to imply that all wounds are permanent. Give the kid some credit. But you do have to pay attention to the kid - and as a responsible parent you will have a much better idea whether there is lasting damage than some rule written by somebody who never met you.

davidstarlingm wrote:I don't think parents should trust themselves to be able to
But they must... and at the same time they must not. That is, they must do what they believe, but always be mindful that they might be wrong, and be willing to adjust. Parents will make mistakes. There is no getting around that.

addams wrote:The example you used of a child burning its self, if not disciplined reminds me of a True Story [...where a rebellious child burned the house down, and blame is placed on the child's mistrust of elders]
The takeaway seems to want to be that "if only the parent's hadn't spanked, the child would be trusting and would have admitted what they did in time to avoid disaster". But I don't buy that. By the story, this was a child that was going to start fires no matter what. We could second-guess ("what if the parents had provided a safe fire-place for the child...") but parents do not have that luxury. They have to play the cards they are left with after they play the cards they were dealt. Sometimes there will be tragedy. It would be good to minimize that, but one example does not point the way.

That said, I am not advocating spanking. I am merely pointing out that "x could cause harm, therefore ~x is better" is faulty logic.

Jose
Order of the Sillies, Honoris Causam - bestowed by charlie_grumbles on NP 859 * OTTscar winner: Wordsmith - bestowed by yappobiscuts and the OTT on NP 1832 * Ecclesiastical Calendar of the Order of the Holy Contradiction * Heartfelt thanks from addams and from me - you really made a difference.

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby addams » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:00 am UTC

Human beings are so complicated.
It is a little bit interesting.

Alice was Real. She never lived down burning GrandMa's house down.
The Reason she never lived it down was because she, still, played with fire as an adult.

I saw her as an adult at a large family gathering. Someone younger than she was yelled across a room,
"Alice! Stop That! Do you want to burn down GrandMa's house, again?!"

It was so funny. That might be the exception that proves the rule.
You can beat a person nearly to death. That will not change who that person is, so don't bother.

How to raise children? ech. Teach them to raise themselves.
You provide the infrastructure and pray. Buy the extra insurance, if you can.

It seems the TV is providing the software. Parents provide the hardware.
The whole world should bow its head and pray. Children are proof of God's sense of humor.

Spoiler:
Bastard has a sick sense of humor.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
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davidstarlingm
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby davidstarlingm » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:50 pm UTC

ucim wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:I mean there was a whole spectrum of parenting styles, all the way from parents who only tapped to parents who went all the way up. But all had the same baseline.
I don't know what that means.

I mean that I grew up surrounded by families which fell at every point along the spectrum, from your "slight taps" all the way up to abuse like my family and worse. But they all produced the same baseline level of fear/distrust. There wasn't a level of physical punishment below which no fear or betrayal could exist.

ucim wrote:It is disingenuous to imply that all wounds are permanent. Give the kid some credit. But you do have to pay attention to the kid - and as a responsible parent you will have a much better idea whether there is lasting damage than some rule written by somebody who never met you.

I am not advocating spanking. I am merely pointing out that "x could cause harm, therefore ~x is better" is faulty logic.

Only if the potentially positive effects of x could not be matched or exceeded by ~x. What is it about spanking that we ought to believe is so much more effective than any other approach?

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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:00 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:
ucim wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:I mean there was a whole spectrum of parenting styles, all the way from parents who only tapped to parents who went all the way up. But all had the same baseline.
I don't know what that means.

I mean that I grew up surrounded by families which fell at every point along the spectrum, from your "slight taps" all the way up to abuse like my family and worse. But they all produced the same baseline level of fear/distrust. There wasn't a level of physical punishment below which no fear or betrayal could exist.


*shrug* Don't know if it all levels of punishment produce the same levels of fear. It certainly seemed as if in my admittedly anecdotal experience, more extreme punishment produced generally worse results. That said, nobody viewed their level as extreme. And physical punishment very commonly had negative side effects.

I won't go so far as to say that all physical punishment ever is bad, but I view it as extremely dangerous, and would strive to minimize it(if it is necessary at all) if I have children of my own.

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ucim
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Re: Couple Found Guilty of Murder, followed parenting book

Postby ucim » Fri Dec 20, 2013 5:50 pm UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:I mean that I grew up surrounded by families which fell at every point along the spectrum, from your "slight taps" all the way up to abuse like my family and worse. But they all produced the same baseline level of fear/distrust. There wasn't a level of physical punishment below which no fear or betrayal could exist.
But how can you be sure that the fear or betrayal comes from spanking, and not from the actual belief systems being imposed. Think of the whole "original sin" thing... I'm not convinced that the theology isn't a source itself.

davidstarlingm wrote:
ucim wrote:I am not advocating spanking. I am merely pointing out that "x could cause harm, therefore ~x is better" is faulty logic.
Only if the potentially positive effects of x could not be matched or exceeded by ~x. What is it about spanking that we ought to believe is so much more effective than any other approach?
It is still faulty logic, since the statement was not qualified by that (important!) condition.

I don't know what or whether there is anything that is "so much more effective" about spanking. Maybe there isn't, but I think it's very much a case by case thing. Every child is different, every home is different, and spanking is quick and immediate. Sometimes those are desirable qualities. But I agree, violence should be minimized whenever possible (which is not the same as "eliminated at all costs").

However, I am not a parent, and I was only a child once. I experienced some spanking, and do not believe I was traumatized by it. Maybe there are better ways. Maybe there are always better ways (though I'm not sure about that). But even if true, I don't think that demonizing it and setting it as equivalent to the kind of beating that leads to an emergency room visit is a good way to think about the issue.

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