PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrists

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KnightExemplar
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:14 am UTC

Snowden doesn't even know what he wants. Proof is how he revealed his location, as well as his identity as the NSA leaker before he even got fired from Booz Allen. Snowden's plan was to assume that Hong Kong was safe. He had no plan after that. After his "Leakers should get shot in the balls" comment a few years ago... I bet you he doesn't even want the help of Wikileaks (but is accepting it because it proves useful when he otherwise has no friends to turn to).

Frankly, his best location would have been in the USA, where the ACLU, EFF, and various other organizations may have come to help him out. (like Daniel Ellisberg, who more or less got off Scott free). Now he's become an international nightmare for every country involved, and is seriously testing the patience of the countries. Its definitely not a good position for him to be in. Really Snowden? You thought that running away was your best bet at this?
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:25 am UTC

If he had stayed in the States he would have been summarily charged in a secret military tribunal and would have subsequently vanished off the face of the Earth, never to be seen or heard from again.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:28 am UTC

Yes, or maybe the grays would have got him.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:32 am UTC

Nah, they only handle international cases.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:37 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:If he had stayed in the States he would have been summarily charged in a secret military tribunal and would have subsequently vanished off the face of the Earth, never to be seen or heard from again.


Totally. Like Bradley Manning, Daniel Ellsberg, Thomas Drake, or any of the other famous leakers in recent history. I'm sorry, but every single one of those turned into a high-profile, highly publicized case. The only one that didn't was like... Deapthroat from the Watergate scandal, because he successfully kept his identity a secret for 30 years (as opposed to WTF unmasking himself in public. What the fuck was that kind of dumbass narcissistic move??) .

Anyway, if he's worried about disappearing randomly, he probably shouldn't have flown to Russia or China. You know... nations where that sort of thing is commonplace??
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Diadem
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Diadem » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:40 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:If he had stayed in the States he would have been summarily charged in a secret military tribunal and would have subsequently vanished off the face of the Earth, never to be seen or heard from again.


Totally. Like Bradley Manning, Daniel Ellsberg, Thomas Drake, or any of the other famous leakers in recent history.

Quoting Daniel Ellsberg as 'recent history' is somewhat hilarious.

And Bradley Manning was locked up and tortured for months before anybody heard from him. He's still subjected to regular torture as we speak. I'd say that Bradley Manning's treatment is a very good reason for whistleblowers to make sure they stay out of reach of the US authorities.

Anyway, if he's worried about disappearing randomly, he probably shouldn't have flown to Russia or China. You know... nations where that sort of thing is commonplace??

He needs a country that is willing to stand up to the US. There aren't that many.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Chen » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:47 am UTC

Diadem wrote:He needs a country that is willing to stand up to the US. There aren't that many.


Cuba or Venezuela come to mind. Hell Russia pretty much did stand up for the US here with Putin's statement. It seems like a big risk for a country like China or Russia to come out and help this guy when they almost certainly have similar spying programs going on themselves.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Diadem » Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:49 am UTC

Meanwhile France seems to have grown a severe case of schizophrenia:

They create a diplomatic row with Bolivia over the possibility of Snowden being on an airplane
but at the same time they want to suspend free-trade talks

I hate the EUs politicians. When will they stop being the US's lapdog. Snowden should be treated as a hero in all of Europe. Whatever the US thinks of him, he did reveal major large scale espionage of the US in Europe.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby KnightExemplar » Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:09 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:If he had stayed in the States he would have been summarily charged in a secret military tribunal and would have subsequently vanished off the face of the Earth, never to be seen or heard from again.


Totally. Like Bradley Manning, Daniel Ellsberg, Thomas Drake, or any of the other famous leakers in recent history.

Quoting Daniel Ellsberg as 'recent history' is somewhat hilarious.

And Bradley Manning was locked up and tortured for months before anybody heard from him. He's still subjected to regular torture as we speak. I'd say that Bradley Manning's treatment is a very good reason for whistleblowers to make sure they stay out of reach of the US authorities.


My point is, he didn't "disappear". Everyone knew where Bradley Manning was 100% of the time. We knew the location of his jail cell, we knew his conditions, we know everything about it. People don't "disappear" in the US.

Anyway, if he's worried about disappearing randomly, he probably shouldn't have flown to Russia or China. You know... nations where that sort of thing is commonplace??

He needs a country that is willing to stand up to the US. There aren't that many.


He needs allies who are willing to stand up to the US. And they exist... in the US. See ACLU, EFF, or any of the other supporters of Snowden right now. He has a right to a lawyer, legal advice, and so forth. But as it is, he isn't even fighting back, and is putting himself at a worse and worse legal advantage. He has already admitted to the crime publicly (never NEVER do that. It is your right to remain silent and fight back). And it is clear to me that he was acting without legal advice up to this point.

Wikileaks has sent a lawyer who's advice to him so far was to get stranded in Russia due to improper legal procedures. To think that this legal limbo is actually better for him is ridiculous. He is now stranded in a foreign country very very far away from friends, family, and supporters. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Russia or China wasn't going to stand up for him...
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Diadem » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:43 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:My point is, he didn't "disappear". Everyone knew where Bradley Manning was 100% of the time. We knew the location of his jail cell, we knew his conditions, we know everything about it. People don't "disappear" in the US.

You're arguing semantics. Manning is in jail, being tortured, and that most likely isn't going to change for a very long time. What does it matter if the rest of the country knows this, if one half is cheering about it and the other half doesn't care? When the few people who do care have basically zero influence.

Anyway, if he's worried about disappearing randomly, he probably shouldn't have flown to Russia or China. You know... nations where that sort of thing is commonplace??

He needs a country that is willing to stand up to the US. There aren't that many.

He needs allies who are willing to stand up to the US. And they exist... in the US. See ACLU, EFF, or any of the other supporters of Snowden right now.[/quote]
So you're saying that being in a legal limbo for a couple of days is worse than being in jail, subjected to torture, with only a very small chance of ever getting out? Because in that case you really ought to reevaluate your priorities.

The ACLU and EFF are irrelevant. They can't do anything for Manning and they won't be able to do anything for Snowden. They just don't have the necessarily influence. The country's leadership want him taken out, and the American public by and large is fine with that.

KnightExemplar wrote:He has already admitted to the crime publicly (never NEVER do that. It is your right to remain silent and fight back).

He's a whistleblower. Making stuff public is the entire point.

KnightExemplar wrote:Wikileaks has sent a lawyer who's advice to him so far was to get stranded in Russia due to improper legal procedures. To think that this legal limbo is actually better for him is ridiculous. He is now stranded in a foreign country very very far away from friends, family, and supporters. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Russia or China wasn't going to stand up for him...

Honestly we know only a small part of what is going on. Most talks about him will be secret, very little of what is happening coincidental. But one thing is very clear: Being in legal limbo in a Russian airport, with protection from Russian elite troops, is far preferably to rotting in an American jail, with no chance of getting out until the political climate in the US radically changes.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:57 pm UTC

So the Bolivian president said he would "consider giving Snowden asylum" while he was at a summit in Russia.

And then, apparently, plane was refused airspace over several countries in europe because of suspicions that Snowden was on board (according to the Bolivian government). France, Portugal, Italy and Spain denied passage, and the plane eventually landed at Vienna.

The Bolivians blame the US for it.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby elasto » Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:12 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Wikileaks has sent a lawyer who's advice to him so far was to get stranded in Russia due to improper legal procedures. To think that this legal limbo is actually better for him is ridiculous. He is now stranded in a foreign country very very far away from friends, family, and supporters. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Russia or China wasn't going to stand up for him...


Um. Russia has offered him asylum. All he has to do is to promise not to leak against America any more. Right now he's holding out for a better offer but it's a strong fall-back position to have. If Russia wanted him out of this holding area they could kick him out tomorrow. They haven't so they most likely won't. I think the strategy and advice has been spot on so far. If he'd stayed in the US he'd already be in custody and would remain there for the rest of his natural life.

He's not in any kind of legal limbo that matters. You don't need a passport to travel.

Personally I think the nonsense with the Bolivian president's plane being diverted and searched was a setup. I think it's just setting up a justification for a formal offer of asylum from a South American country - probably Bolivia.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:21 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:He has already admitted to the crime publicly (never NEVER do that. It is your right to remain silent and fight back).

He's a whistleblower. Making stuff public is the entire point.


As was Deepthroat. But Deepthroat didn't gloat about it in public, and instead remained a secret... and safe for 30+ years.

I understand the want to leak information here. But what I don't get is why was he so narscisitic to reveal his own identity?

KnightExemplar wrote:Wikileaks has sent a lawyer who's advice to him so far was to get stranded in Russia due to improper legal procedures. To think that this legal limbo is actually better for him is ridiculous. He is now stranded in a foreign country very very far away from friends, family, and supporters. It doesn't take a genius to figure out that Russia or China wasn't going to stand up for him...

Honestly we know only a small part of what is going on. Most talks about him will be secret, very little of what is happening coincidental. But one thing is very clear: Being in legal limbo in a Russian airport, with protection from Russian elite troops, is far preferably to rotting in an American jail, with no chance of getting out until the political climate in the US radically changes.


He apparently knew how to create a secure and secret channel of communication between him and newspaper reporters. He probably could have made it anonymous too if he was patient with it. (ie: I'll contact you through this channel later... but also send other stories down that channel). He could have wiped his personal computers, stored the data outside of his home, and pretended to not be the leaker.

Why did he want to reveal himself and fly to Hong Kong? What benefit is there to you or me, or him, as he revealed himself?
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby addams » Thu Jul 04, 2013 4:34 am UTC

Who Knows?

I am siding with the group that wants this man Protected.
It does not have to cost a Huge amount of money.

I, also, agree that he was well advised to ask for help from what are the Public enemies of the US.
Why does China make him a Home with them? Is someone caring about what is Good for Him?

I am so glad to hear that He made it Out and There is someone that will Assist him.
I do not have a clue how to explain this. This is a wonderful Country. To Look At!

I Loved My Nation as much as I knew how. I know that we have reached for High Ideals and We have fallen Short.
That was a part of My Education. Over and Over. We Had To Know! We have fallen Short. We Do Better, now!

That is Not True, anymore. It is so hard to understand. City people may understand this with greater ease.
When we walk down a city street, The City may be Beautiful and the Sun shines Nicely;

But; Inside that building is a Theater. Inside that one is a Nursery School. Inside that one is a Torture Room. That one has an Art Exhibit.
It may or may not be a conspiracy. I am Not the Only one. Snowden is not the Only one.

What are the Whistle Blowers saying?
I am allowed to know he shed light on digital snooping.

I am able to say with some Authority, 'The us is as Guilty as any nation of allowing Petty Politics to Destroy lives.'
The Feds? Yes. It is possible with all the Secrecy and the Lists of Terror to Manipulate the System into destroying people.

How many innocents are wasting away in Jail for attempting to be good citizens of their Nation after the 2000 switch over?
How many have been driven to Kill themselves rather than withstand inhumane conditions? A Few. Any is too many.

This guy is Doing Great! Go Snowden!
He is getting farther than I did.

The next one will Run Into Open Arms! I hope!

Is that the Problem? We would have a Wave of people fleeing if there were a Nation that would take us?
It is True!!! You Find Me a Nation and They will get one of the Most Over Qualified Dishwashers in The Northern Hemisphere!
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Thu Jul 04, 2013 5:59 am UTC

About the Bolivian plane divert thing, France has apologized, citing "conflicting reports".

So looks like there was some suspicious pointing going on behind the scenes.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby folkhero » Thu Jul 04, 2013 6:55 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Why did he want to reveal himself and fly to Hong Kong? What benefit is there to you or me, or him, as he revealed himself?

Just speculating here, but it might be because he determined that it would be more difficult for the U.S. to make him quietly disappear if he became a public figure. Sure he might have been able to stay secret forever, but on the other hand, maybe he wouldn't. Considering the nature of the very programs he was leaking information about, I think it's not unreasonable to suspect that the NSA and FBI would have been able to discover who the leaker was after an investigation.

Ultimately though focusing attention on Snowden and speculation as to his motives are a distraction from the important stuff. Maybe he leaked this information because his drug-addled mind made him think that his neighbor's dog got possessed by Satan himself and threatened to murder his entire extended family if he didn't leak the info, that wouldn't change the fact that the government is partaking in secret, unconstitutional surveillance of it's citizens and a prominent member of the intel community lied to congress about it.

Is Snowden a criminal scumbag? Maybe.
Is James Clapper a criminal scumbag? Yes, and the proof of it is on Youtube for anyone who cares to look.

So why isn't Clapper the subject of an international manhunt, or any legal action whatsoever? Why are so many people, in the media and otherwise, spending so much energy worried about Snowden's potential crimes, motivations and person character and no one seems to be saying a god damned word about the guy who perjured himself in front of congress and the American people about one of the most important issues of government.
To all law enforcement entities, this is not an admission of guilt...

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:25 am UTC

What YouTube shows is that Clapper said something incorrect. No prosecutor outside of the USSR would charge someone with intentionally lying when the only evidence of intent is "gubmint can't be trusted."
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby addams » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:32 am UTC

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-22884429

This Is irritating.
The General has The Party Line down better than Sarah Pailin.

"We have to do this." he says.
"We Can't let The Terrorists Know." he says.

It is The Same Bullshit; Different Century.

Do any of us Remember Anything about our High Ideals?
What do we get if we allow people to be Free?
What happens when we treat men and women as Innocent?
Even if We Know they did it?

Do you remember that? Well; I Do!
It was pounded in.

There was Great Freedom within a framework that I believed in.
I was told, "They are Innocent until proven Guilty."
That means that they are to be treated the way you would want the people you love the most treated.

If this person has been convicted of a Crime. You Still treat them as an Innocent. You follow the Judge's Orders.
If the judge says, Ninety days. Then Ninety days it is.

But; Within that Ninety days we do not starve them.
We do not beat them. We treat them with as much dignity and grace as we can.

I takes Great Strength to Be Gentle.

What a bunch of fucking weaklings.
To treat each and every one as if they are Guilty from before arrest through the Rest of their Lives is a Weakling's Position.

The Europeans. They told me some stuff about what they went through. It did not make a lot of sense, at the time.
What was The Lesson? There were many deaths. There was a great deal of suffering. They learned something.

What was it? What did they Learn? What did I think we Knew?
I am thinking. What did we know then that we do not know, now?

What did we Learn? Peace. It is hard. Why?
Because, some people are not happy unless they are unhappy?

Some jack ass will mess it up? No matter what, Some Jack Ass will screw things up.
That is True. What is the Cost of Keeping Some Sweet fifteen year old from doing something stupid?

Terrorists? Who are They?
I have met Assholes.

Is that what The General wants to Stop?
Good Luck General Old Buddy.
Assholes are like the poor; They will alway be with us.

If what I have met is Terrorists then there is Good News and Bad News.
Not all that bright a bunch. Some fine minds in The Mix.

It is not justifiable. Not the snooping into e-mails.
About that I don't care. Looking for Blackmail Material?

It is the Justifying all manor of ill will and creepy Secret....yuck.
That General is, just, doing his job. He does not Know.

I would like to talk to him. It would take some time to explain it.
I wonder what kind of a man he is. What would he think of The Truth?

Edit: I looked the general up on the Internet.
He is an Academy Kid. Inside all of his life.

Undergrad in Business Administration.
Smart? He did Post Grad work in Physics.

He Knows The Party Line. Americans will Die.
Congress must do X! Or, Americans will Die.

I Am bothered by those words.
Many in my nation have been programed or Hypnotized to respond to those words in ways that Do Not Make Me Proud.

I Still Think It! What a bunch of Weaklings!
That man is supposed to be a solder. What?!

American will die if you don't let me do X.
American will die anyway, General.

It was not said as an obvious Threat. Still.
That man has a Good Life. I don't like the way his Uniform fits.

oh, oh, I remember something the Europeans said. That may be It!
The Europeans said, "We may die of The Plague if we Hug and Kiss. We Hug and Kiss, anyway."

That is Helpful. It is. Right?

I may die if I go to work in The Hospital. There are Sick people there.
I will die anyway. The Hospital is Important. I went to work, anyway.

All that Money. All that Effort. All of that and More.
Tons of Violent Media. Cultural Norms that are Brutal on a Good Day.

Then he tells congress they will be held responsible if Americans Die.
That is so Mean. Do we Know? If his budget is Cut, Will Americans Die?

That is The Best Funded Department? It is Well Funded?
I want The Ausie! His uniform fit better.
Last edited by addams on Thu Jul 04, 2013 8:02 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Iulus Cofield » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:41 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:What YouTube shows is that Clapper said something incorrect. No prosecutor outside of the USSR would charge someone with intentionally lying when the only evidence of intent is "gubmint can't be trusted."


Surely you're not suggesting he was unaware of the program? If that's true, I would find it far more alarming that the NSA was doing all this without informing the guy one step below the President in the intelligence hierarchy than merely the executive running amok in its intelligence gathering. Plus, he later made a statement admitting the program existed. That's pretty reasonable grounds to suspect fraud, though probably not enough to charge him. Would anybody be surprised if a five minute investigation found enough evidence to charge him?

More government mass spying on citizens (this stuff is starting to deserve a megathread):

U.S. Postal Service Logging All Mail for Law Enforcement

WASHINGTON — Leslie James Pickering noticed something odd in his mail last September: a handwritten card, apparently delivered by mistake, with instructions for postal workers to pay special attention to the letters and packages sent to his home.

“Show all mail to supv” — supervisor — “for copying prior to going out on the street,” read the card. It included Mr. Pickering’s name, address and the type of mail that needed to be monitored. The word “confidential” was highlighted in green.

As the world focuses on the high-tech spying of the National Security Agency, the misplaced card offers a rare glimpse inside the seemingly low-tech but prevalent snooping of the United States Postal Service.

Mr. Pickering was targeted by a longtime surveillance system called mail covers, a forerunner of a vastly more expansive effort, the Mail Isolation Control and Tracking program, in which Postal Service computers photograph the exterior of every piece of paper mail that is processed in the United States — about 160 billion pieces last year. It is not known how long the government saves the images.

Together, the two programs show that postal mail is subject to the same kind of scrutiny that the National Security Agency has given to telephone calls and e-mail.

“Basically they are doing the same thing as the other programs, collecting the information on the outside of your mail, the metadata, if you will, of names, addresses, return addresses and postmark locations, which gives the government a pretty good map of your contacts, even if they aren’t reading the contents,” he said.

The mail covers program, used to monitor Mr. Pickering, is more than a century old but is still considered a powerful tool. At the request of law enforcement officials, postal workers record information from the outside of letters and parcels before they are delivered. (Opening the mail would require a warrant.) The information is sent to the law enforcement agency that asked for it. Tens of thousands of pieces of mail each year undergo this scrutiny.

For mail cover requests, law enforcement agencies submit a letter to the Postal Service, which can grant or deny a request without judicial review. Law enforcement officials say the Postal Service rarely denies a request. In other government surveillance programs, like wiretaps, a federal judge must sign off on the requests.

Court challenges to mail covers have generally failed because judges have ruled that there is no reasonable expectation of privacy for information contained on the outside of a letter. Officials in both the Bush and Obama administrations, in fact, have used the mail-cover court rulings to justify the N.S.A.’s surveillance programs, saying the electronic monitoring amounts to the same thing as a mail cover. Congress briefly conducted hearings on mail cover programs in 1976, but has not revisited the issue.
...

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby folkhero » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:15 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:What YouTube shows is that Clapper said something incorrect. No prosecutor outside of the USSR would charge someone with intentionally lying when the only evidence of intent is "gubmint can't be trusted."

Clapper was given the question the day before he had to give testimony and was given a chance by Wyden's office to change his testimony after the fact. Clapper first claimed that Wyden's question was some sort of, "have you stopped beating your wife?" trick question and that his answer was the "least untruthful" answer he could give. This demonstrates clear calculation as to his answer. He now claims that his answer was erroneous because he forgot about part of the Patriot Act.

I love it how every time a powerful person get caught lying suddenly words lose all of their commonplace meanings and an extremely clear and direct question can become some sort of elaborate rhetorical trap, and we how we are supposed to go along with the idea that heads of government agencies can forget some of the most fundamental aspects of what they and their underlings do under the bright lights of C-SPAN; but if you really think the only evidence of intentional deceit is a vague and simpleminded misttrust of government, then I will have to ask you to kindly fuck right off.
To all law enforcement entities, this is not an admission of guilt...

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Kulantan » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:37 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:I understand the want to leak information here. But what I don't get is why was he so narscisitic to reveal his own identity?


You think the NSA wouldn't know who the whistleblower was? Or that he could seek asylum without giving his name? Giving the US the initiative on revealing his identity when ever they wanted or to paint him as cowardly seems stupid. It means that people can't smear the source as "probably having made it all up" or "too low level to actually know the safeguards or general practice". Which are substantive criticisms. Plus, it means he can actively fight for his believes.

The only cost is assholes smearing him personally as narcissistic.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby elasto » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:03 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:But what I don't get is why was he so narscisitic to reveal his own identity?

Snowdon would have been taking a huge risk staying in the country and would have been forever looking over his shoulder. Could you have lived like that? Every day wondering if someone's firing a listening device at your window, or if the car behind you is part of a trail team, or if the computer you're using has been compromised and all encryption worthless... Every day wondering if today is the last day you see sunlight and smell fresh air...

Once he made the sensible decision to flee, he had to reveal what he did else no country would take his asylum application seriously.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:01 pm UTC

elasto wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:But what I don't get is why was he so narscisitic to reveal his own identity?

Snowdon would have been taking a huge risk staying in the country and would have been forever looking over his shoulder. Could you have lived like that? Every day wondering if someone's firing a listening device at your window, or if the car behind you is part of a trail team, or if the computer you're using has been compromised and all encryption worthless... Every day wondering if today is the last day you see sunlight and smell fresh air...

Once he made the sensible decision to flee, he had to reveal what he did else no country would take his asylum application seriously.


Frankly, yes.

1. Don't leave classified information in your house. Your house is always the first thing searched. (this includes your personal computer, etc. etc.)
2. Don't talk about classified information in your house.
3. Minimize communication with press outside of the secured channel.

People cannot take what isn't there. He worked for the NSA. He claims to have had superuser access (which means he would have know what was logged, and where it was logged in the internal audit systems). I think he'd know at least as much as I do about computer security protocols, as well as the capabilities of law enforcement. He fucking worked for the NSA, you'd think he'd know the basics of counterintelligence at least.

Kulantan wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:I understand the want to leak information here. But what I don't get is why was he so narscisitic to reveal his own identity?


You think the NSA wouldn't know who the whistleblower was?


They certainly didn't know it was him when he revealed himself. He was still on Booz Allen's payroll till a day or two after he revealed himself, reportedly on vacation time. He should have taken advantage of that time to get into a better safehouse.

Or that he could seek asylum without giving his name? Giving the US the initiative on revealing his identity when ever they wanted or to paint him as cowardly seems stupid. It means that people can't smear the source as "probably having made it all up" or "too low level to actually know the safeguards or general practice". Which are substantive criticisms. Plus, it means he can actively fight for his believes.

The only cost is assholes smearing him personally as narcissistic.


"Only cost??" The most important cost is that he's more or less admitted to the crime, and if he ever lands his ass in court, he is done for.

If he kept silent, the FBI would have had to build a reasonable case up before searching his house or getting a warrant of any kind. (ie: Daniel Ellisberg's defense was that the FBI conducted warrentless searches of his house, and the evidence against him was thrown out under the exclusionary rule). That defense is now null-and-void. He pretty much has no legal defense against any kind of searching, spying, or anything against him now... now that he's publicly admitted to the crime. The FBI is probably authorized to raid everything he has ever touched.

From an extreme practicality point of view, there is NOTHING to be gained by his actions. As for "probably made it all up", the actual pictures of the classified documents were enough. For the "too low level" argument, it has also revealed that he only worked at the NSA for 3 months. So no, he hasn't stopped the personal criticism against his character Kulatan, if anything, revealing his identity has cast more doubt as we now have proof that he really wasn't in his position for a very long time. His release of only 4 pages of the PRISM documents is also a source of criticism. (what do the other pages say?) EDIT: No seriously, his resume and character is extremely easy to criticize. He is a high-school dropout, with no college degree, who can't seem to hold a job for a very long time, with only a few weeks worth of experience in his latest position. His "character" is extremely easy to criticize as a defense against the leak. If anything, his argument lost points in the public eye when he revealed his identity.

Someone like Thomas Drake, who actually was in a senior position for decades... that is a good identity to reveal to the public. But this Snowden guy... he doesn't have any "ethos" behind him. His arguments are almost entirely based on the screenshots of those classified documents, as well as senior official's reactions to the issue.

So no, revealing himself doesn't stem any criticism at all, and has utterly demolished his legal position. He is forced to run because he revealed himself. Again, he was fired AFTER he revealed himself. They didn't even know Snowden was gone when all that stuff was leaked. Something is can also be said about Greenwald who was willing to sacrifice Snowden's identity (against better judgement) for selling a story.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jul 04, 2013 2:46 pm UTC

Once the data was released no matter if Snowden reveals himself or not, he was blown. The number of people, superuser on not, that had access is known. And sooner or later they would have discovered him. The joke is that he had that type of access and was able to download it to removable media. Removable, writable media are evil, and the Security agencies know this. They just got greased by a low level nobody currently residing in a Military prison while undergoing trial for this very thing. Stupid is doing the same things over and over again and expecting a different result. Clapper should be fired with prejudice.

Snowden may have taken more than he released. I suspect without being in the position to know, that the thing that bitches them out the most is not knowing what else that could be released. If he did destroy the logs that would tell, them the issue is not knowing he did it, but what he took. And judging by the oddball way the EU is acting, it is at least in the realm of plausibility that they might have be complicit in some fashion, unless you naively believe that they don't have security agencies and agendas of their own.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Kulantan » Thu Jul 04, 2013 3:13 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:
Kulantan wrote:You think the NSA wouldn't know who the whistleblower was?

They certainly didn't know it was him when he revealed himself. He was still on Booz Allen's payroll till a day or two after he revealed himself, reportedly on vacation time. He should have taken advantage of that time to get into a better safehouse.

I don't expect the NSA to do a security audit of it and all of its contractors in days. As for a better safe house, his movements would have been tracked by the airlines computer systems which I will bet one billion dollars are monitored by the NSA. He had permission to go to Hong Kong, permission which he carefully obtained over a long period. Going straight to Ecuador/other might not have been an option. Playing armchair coach on this against a someone who works at the NSA and whose future life is reliant on the decisions is arrogant and bizarre.

In fact here is his statement on his "safehouse":
Edward Snowden wrote:Leaving the US was an incredible risk, as NSA employees must declare their foreign travel 30 days in advance and are monitored. There was a distinct possibility I would be interdicted en route, so I had to travel with no advance booking to a country with the cultural and legal framework to allow me to work without being immediately detained. Hong Kong provided that. Iceland could be pushed harder, quicker, before the public could have a chance to make their feelings known, and I would not put that past the current US administration.

And as for this:
KnightExemplar wrote:3. Minimize communication with press outside of the secured channel.

He quite rightly (remember it was a Guardian journalist who stuffed up with the Wikileaks encryption stuff and that Greenwald didn't pursue Snowden's story for a long while because he didn't know anything about encryption):
Edward Snowden wrote:Encryption works. Properly implemented strong crypto systems are one of the few things that you can rely on. Unfortunately, endpoint security is so terrifically weak that NSA can frequently find ways around it.

Next bullshit please.
KnightExemplar wrote:
Kulantan wrote:The only cost is assholes smearing him personally as narcissistic.

"Only cost??" The most important cost is that he's more or less admitted to the crime, and if he ever lands his ass in court, he is done for.

If he kept silent, the FBI would have had to build a reasonable case up before searching his house or getting a warrant of any kind. (ie: Daniel Ellisberg's defense was that the FBI conducted warrentless searches of his house, and the evidence against him was thrown out under the exclusionary rule). That defense is now null-and-void. He pretty much has no legal defense against any kind of searching, spying, or anything against him now... now that he's publicly admitted to the crime. The FBI is probably authorized to raid everything he has ever touched.

Comparing Ellisberg to Snowden is pretty silly. Ellisberg didn't have to deal with ubiquitous electronic surveillance, FISA courts, PATRIOT acts, ect. Snowden would never have a surefire defense and with the Obama administration being so fond of the espionage act I wouldn't want to ever want to place my hope in the law.
KnightExemplar wrote:From an extreme practicality point of view, there is NOTHING to be gained by his actions. As for "probably made it all up", the actual pictures of the classified documents were enough. For the "too low level" argument, it has also revealed that he only worked at the NSA for 3 months. So no, he hasn't stopped the personal criticism against his character Kulatan, if anything, revealing his identity has cast more doubt as we now have proof that he really wasn't in his position for a very long time. His release of only 4 pages of the PRISM documents is also a source of criticism. (what do the other pages say?) EDIT: No seriously, his resume and character is extremely easy to criticize. He is a high-school dropout, with no college degree, who can't seem to hold a job for a very long time, with only a few weeks worth of experience in his latest position. His "character" is extremely easy to criticize as a defense against the leak. If anything, his argument lost points in the public eye when he revealed his identity.

The pictures of the documents should be enough. However, I've seen an awful lot of shit thrown at the Wikileaks leaks and others. With a face and a motive it is far easier to trust the truthfulness of the documents. Also this is a false in every meaningful way:
KnightExemplar wrote:it has also revealed that he only worked at the NSA for 3 months

He has worked for the NSA for at the very least 12 months previously and has been a consultant for the NSA (working for Bose Allen) for only three months but has been working in the intelligence community for years. As you should be able to tell by the fact that he has superuser access.

KnightExemplar wrote:Someone like Thomas Drake, who actually was in a senior position for decades... that is a good identity to reveal to the public. But this Snowden guy... he doesn't have any "ethos" behind him. His arguments are almost entirely based on the screenshots of those classified documents, as well as senior official's reactions to the issue.

That is pure smear. "No ethos", yeah I don't see any in his public statements, what abuses he has drawn public attention to or his action of leaking to the public rather than making money working at the NSA/selling secrets.

KnightExemplar wrote:Something is can also be said about Greenwald who was willing to sacrifice Snowden's identity (against better judgement) for selling a story.

Nope:
The Guardian wrote:The Guardian, after several days of interviews, is revealing his identity at his request. From the moment he decided to disclose numerous top-secret documents to the public, he was determined not to opt for the protection of anonymity. "I have no intention of hiding who I am because I know I have done nothing wrong," he said.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby addams » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:41 pm UTC

Two Man Rule? Great! It would be so Great if Snowden had a Buddy.
The two of them could hold hands. Gay? Nah. ok.

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/20 ... ent-leaks/

Does this shit frighten you?
What did you guys do with the Ausie?

I can't listen to it all the way through in One sitting.
It is like a horrible Book. I can go back to it.

It is said. It is recorded. Anyone can listen to it.
What is That Man Saying? Connect The DOTs?
What dots?

I am so sorry. umm. He said, "If we are going to do this we need the Intelligence to Do it."

That one sentence made sense to ME. We need intelligence! Where are we going to Get That?
Europe has some. They Do! I saw it.

Intelligence. A sense of Responsibility. Childlike wonder in Adults.
It Happens! I know it Does. Find some of Those. Europe has Some.

It is common in Some places. Is it Not?
People Living in Peace. Why would They Help US?

He Said Intelligence. That is Not what that man meant.
He said Intelligence; He meant Information or Power.

I don't know what he was attempting to say.
Can the word Power be replace with the word intelligence in each of his sentences?

No wonder people don't like me.
I want The Ausie.
Last edited by addams on Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:57 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby folkhero » Thu Jul 04, 2013 7:55 pm UTC

KnightExemplar wrote: no college degree

Fuck you. Since when is not having a college degree some sort of great moral failing? Oh this guy's an autodidact; he must be a real piece of shit.

And again, we are guessing at the motivation of a stranger who we really don't know much about. Who cares why he leaked or why he revealed his identity? What real difference does it make? Why is it important to so many people? I guess it's important for you because we are talking about Snowden instead of Clapper, or the fact that the USPS is now a branch of the intelligence community and spying on Americans without probable cause.
To all law enforcement entities, this is not an admission of guilt...

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby addams » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:02 pm UTC

Did you watch that you tube of the Four Star?
Name: Chief Keith Alexander

Is That the Most Powerful Man on The Planet?

http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politics/20 ... ent-leaks/

Is it best not to listen to his Speeches? Do you?
Is it Real? Is it easy for you to follow what he is Talking about?

He streams a few words together that I, sort of, Understand.
He said, "We Treat Those as US persons."

Dear God! Is That Good or is That Bad?
He is talking about Extraneous Results. Right?

There is No Way they throw away extraneous Results.
Some of The Best Stuff in in extraneous Results.

It is Not Science? What is it?

Snowden is, just, a guy that got away.
That Four Star is SomeBody!

We should Know More about That Man.
He is Only One Man. He is an Important Man!

What is His Workday Like? Secret?
oh dear; There is a Loop of Nothing but dizzy.

Snowden Worked for This Guy. Right?

It is Like Fiction! I read a book like this one time.
I will read almost anything, in English.

Those powerful positions come with some constraints.
Like a River held within its banks,
An Officer is Held by an Intellectual Framework.

What holds David Morrison in?
What holds Keith Alexander in?

No One Likes It When a River Gets Too Big for Its Britches.
Britches fit on People; Banks fit on Rivers.

Mixed metaphors are Not Going to Help the Americans.
The Ausies might think it is Funny.

Anything for a Laugh.
They send up David.
We send out Keith.

If it is A Class War; They won.

Spoiler:
If we Surender Now; We might get off easy.

Edit and then Edit, again.
I can't listen to that Speech all the way through.

He Said, "If you think about it, This is No Different than a Nuclear Situation."
Then he went on Yadda-Yadda- Yadda. No Different?! No Different than a Nuclear Situation?!

What is a Nuclear Situation? Did he mean a Detonated Bomb or Series of Bombs?
I think digital snooping is different than Nuclear Situations. What do I Know?

He did Post Grad in Physics! He would Know. Right?
Dear General; We Know what to do in a Nuclear Situation.
I don't think what I know to do in a nuclear situation is reasonable behavior in This Situation.

I must remind myself. This is the Most Powerful Man on The Planet.
Now! Pay attention to him!
Spoiler:
(it is so hard for me. where is the Ausie?)
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We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Jul 04, 2013 9:46 pm UTC

folkhero wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote: no college degree

Fuck you. Since when is not having a college degree some sort of great moral failing? Oh this guy's an autodidact; he must be a real piece of shit.


What the fuck? My point is that Snowden gained nothing from revealing his identity. I'm frankly insulted that you're taking my comment out of line like that. However... I agree with your later point here:

And again, we are guessing at the motivation of a stranger who we really don't know much about. Who cares why he leaked or why he revealed his identity? What real difference does it make? Why is it important to so many people? I guess it's important for you because we are talking about Snowden instead of Clapper, or the fact that the USPS is now a branch of the intelligence community and spying on Americans without probable cause.


Agreed. Sorry for pulling the conversation towards the wrong direction. I'm frankly more interested in Snowden's escape plan at this point, but in hindsight, that is off topic a bit. There are more important things to talk about.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby addams » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:07 pm UTC

Yes. What does Four Star General Keith say?
He said that This Was The Most Significant Transfer of Wealth In History.

In That Clip he said That.
Those are Buzz Words.
I have heard Those Words before.

Snowden? nah. He is, just, a guy.
Why do you want to know his Escape Plan?
Do you want to USE it?

Don't bother. Escape Plans are Unique to the Individual.
So far; He has been lucky. I bet it was Not all Luck.

What ever it is; Let us Pray it Holds.
He is, just, a GUY.

That General is a SomeBody!
That general would not spare The Rod.
Does he seem like that Kind of a Man to You?

For the Good OF Defending The Nation; No One Breaks Ranks!
God Help those that Do.

Maybe I should go to Church.
No. I don't expect Help to come from The Heavens.
Spoiler:
Remember what the Islamic Woman Said.
God has Many Children calling out for Help.

She said she expected a busy signal.
That's Why she Called Five times a Day.

I expect there are Others, also.
That is Why I wait quietly.
Sometimes God has something to say.

Not often. It is quiet Inside the Chapel.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Iulus Cofield » Thu Jul 04, 2013 10:09 pm UTC

I'm not sure what point you're trying to make, Knight. Whatever kind of person Snowden is and whatever his motivations are, are just a sideshow to the real issues to me.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:26 pm UTC

Well, well, well. It looks like Europe likes to listen too. How shocking!

France 'runs vast electronic spying operation using NSA-style methods

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Fri Jul 05, 2013 12:46 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:His release of only 4 pages of the PRISM documents is also a source of criticism. (what do the other pages say?) EDIT: No seriously, his resume and character is extremely easy to criticize. He is a high-school dropout, with no college degree, who can't seem to hold a job for a very long time, with only a few weeks worth of experience in his latest position. His "character" is extremely easy to criticize as a defense against the leak. If anything, his argument lost points in the public eye when he revealed his identity.


In early articles with the Guardian, Snowden/the Guardian explains that they're only releasing slides that they feel are relevant to the public view, so as to keep the blame where it should be. E.g. if they distributed slides about the very technical nitty-gritty then the NSA could call him out for revealing secret technology, or slides with names could be steered towards defamation or the public destruction of someone's career. They didn't want that, they wanted people to know the information that mattered.

KnightExemplar wrote:
folkhero wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote: no college degree

Fuck you. Since when is not having a college degree some sort of great moral failing? Oh this guy's an autodidact; he must be a real piece of shit.


What the fuck? My point is that Snowden gained nothing from revealing his identity. I'm frankly insulted that you're taking my comment out of line like that.


You were implying that people with high-school dropouts and no college degrees as lacking "good character". It doesn't. You're attacking him in extremely irrelevant directions. I don't see why his "character" has any importance here at all, to be honest. That was his point too - he just wanted the public to stop doubting (especially as the US government would obviously try to downplay the issue). The most straightforward way to do so is to walk out and state "hello, my name is ____, I am a real person, and here is the truth that has been hidden from you". Attempting to hide would only let the government divert the focus to catching him, and would probably allow them to call him a traitor/enemy. By being honest, he's clearly indicating his belief that what he did was right.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby elasto » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:03 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:Well, well, well. It looks like Europe likes to listen too. How shocking!


And? It's wrong when America does it, it's wrong when the UK does it and it's wrong when France does it too.

If the American/UK/French public prefer security to privacy, that's fine. Laws can be passed saying it's ok to do warrantless spying on your own citizens. Let the people decide!

The only unacceptable combination is having laws saying warrantless spying on your own citizens is not ok and then doing it anyway (and lying to Congress about it). And yet somehow that's the option they've chosen.

This is not rocket science and politicians need to be pushed until they accept that they are the ones accountable to us and not the other way around. They govern us but only by our consent. Get our consent! Hell, we might even give it!

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Iulus Cofield » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:13 am UTC

elasto wrote:This is not rocket science and politicians need to be punished until they accept that they are the ones accountable to us and not the other way around. They govern us but only by our consent. Get our consent! Hell, we might even give it!


FTFY. I don't know where civil servants got the idea they shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes, but it's ruined everything forever.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:33 am UTC

I still find it pretty mind-boggling for the US to simply shrug off PRISM (despite it being outright illegal; the Patriot Act requires that data be collected only when it's tied to a specific investigation). I was expecting a few names to take the brunt of the blame, maybe have the project canceled (and later secretly resurrected or something)...Not for the whole US government as an entity to go "so what? This is all perfectly legal. NOW LETS GO HUNT DOWN THE MAN RESPONSIBLE FOR LETTING THE WORLD KNOW!"
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Thesh » Fri Jul 05, 2013 1:42 am UTC

You know how Hitler is evil, therefore everything Hitler did or believed was evil? Well, this is similar; America is good, therefore everything America does is good, and every enemy/critic of America is evil.
Summum ius, summa iniuria.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby addams » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:07 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:
elasto wrote:This is not rocket science and politicians need to be punished until they accept that they are the ones accountable to us and not the other way around. They govern us but only by our consent. Get our consent! Hell, we might even give it!


FTFY. I don't know where civil servants got the idea they shouldn't be held accountable for their crimes, but it's ruined everything forever.

You are charming.
You make some Funny Blanket statements.
you make me chuckle, sometimes.

Of course, people that do crimes do not want to be held Accountable.
Those are the people that ruined everything, forever.
Funny.

They have More Money than God. By a bunch.
What would God do with The Money?

oh....A Fancy Place some place Warm?
Fancy Dresses for Men?

Vegas or Italy? Tough Choice?
Italy has Italians. Vegas has Americans.
Did the choice get easier?

There is Not One thing I can do to Change any of it.
Is there something You can do?

Well, then; Let's make up a Joke or Two.
It is a delicate Subject. They might Hear Us.

Is that funny? It is like the Russian Jokes.
I don't remember many of those Jokes.

Some of them did not make any sense to me.
I wonder; Would I understand them better, now?
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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Jul 05, 2013 4:37 am UTC

Steax wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote:
folkhero wrote:
KnightExemplar wrote: no college degree

Fuck you. Since when is not having a college degree some sort of great moral failing? Oh this guy's an autodidact; he must be a real piece of shit.


What the fuck? My point is that Snowden gained nothing from revealing his identity. I'm frankly insulted that you're taking my comment out of line like that.


You were implying that people with high-school dropouts and no college degrees as lacking "good character".


That was not my intention. I'd explain it... but I've already dropped the subject so that this thread can focus on more important matters. So carry on, nothing to see here.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby elasto » Sat Jul 06, 2013 5:03 pm UTC

Venezuela's Nicolas Maduro said it would give asylum to the intelligence leaker, who is believed to be holed up in a transit area of Moscow airport.

President Maduro made his announcement in a speech on Venezuela's Independence Day: "As head of state and government of the Bolivarian Republic of Venezuela I have decided to offer humanitarian asylum to the young US citizen Edward Snowden so he can come to the fatherland of Bolivar and Chavez to live away from the imperial North American persecution," President Maduro said.


Meanwhile Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega said his country would do so "if circumstances permit".

Earlier Mr Ortega said Nicaragua had received an application at its embassy in Moscow: "We are open, respectful of the right to asylum, and it is clear that if circumstances permit it, we would receive Snowden with pleasure and give him asylum here in Nicaragua," AFP news agency quoted the Nicaraguan president as saying.


Bolivia's Evo Morales said Mr Snowden could get asylum there if he sought it.

Mr Morales described Mr Snowden's actions as "a fair way of protesting" and described him as "persecuted by his fellow countrymen". "We are not scared [of reprisals]," he added.


Meanwhile:

Bolivia, which had also suggested it could offer Mr Snowden asylum, saw its presidential plane barred from European airspace on Tuesday. There was speculation the 30-year-old was on the plane carrying President Evo Morales back from Russia to La Paz earlier this week.

"Edward Snowden has applied to another six countries for asylum," tweeted Wikileaks, which has been helping the former CIA contractor. "They will not be named at this time due to attempted US interference."

The US has been blamed for being behind the decision by France, Portugal, Italy and Spain to close its airspace to Bolivia's president, whose plane was grounded in Austria for 13 hours as a result.

Earlier on Friday, Spain's Foreign Minister Jose Manuel Garcia-Margallo admitted he and other European officials had been told that Mr Snowden was on board - but refused to say who gave out the information. He denied Spain had closed its airspace to the presidential plane, explaining that the delay in Austria meant the flight permit had expired and needed to be renewed.

His comment is the first official recognition by the European states that the incident with Mr Morales' plane was connected with the Snowden affair.

It has been widely condemned by President Morales and several other South American nations, who were critical of the US.


Anyone still think he was badly advised - or would have been better off waiting for his door to get smashed down in the US?

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