PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrists

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby addams » Wed Jun 12, 2013 10:50 am UTC

Morriswaters; Your post made me smile. One of those sweet, sad smiles.

Yes. It is best to stay away from protests.
Protests change very little and would put you at risk.

I knew a Quaker woman that was in her Seventies when she was jailed for three months for protesting the training of Tortures. The poor sweet woman. The gears of injustice grind on.

The photo thing has become a big issue with people.
I have seen people become violent about having their photos taken.
That is so silly.
With the lens on a Cheep digital camera I can photograph a person from across the street and count their pimples later.

What can the common citizens do? My first guess is Nothing.
As long as we do nothing we are not at risk.

oops. Too late for me. I already did something.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Wed Jun 12, 2013 12:10 pm UTC

No addams, sorry. It's not better to stay away from protests. But protests are useless if they don't accomplish something. The Quaker women became a prisoner of conscience. Her arrest made a statement that she wanted the world to hear. Occupy was a waste. It's target not well defined. And no clear way of achieving it's goals assuming it knew what they were. Civil rights marches provoked responses, intentionally. They highlighted the target. MLK's speech in Washington was a show of power. The movement had a specific purpose and leaders to enunciate those purposes. Checks and balances are in place to protect you against data mining, my point is that the only real protection you have are those you implement yourself.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby addams » Thu Jun 13, 2013 6:08 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:No addams, sorry. It's not better to stay away from protests. But protests are useless if they don't accomplish something. The Quaker women became a prisoner of conscience. Her arrest made a statement that she wanted the world to hear. Occupy was a waste. It's target not well defined. And no clear way of achieving it's goals assuming it knew what they were. Civil rights marches provoked responses, intentionally. They highlighted the target. MLK's speech in Washington was a show of power. The movement had a specific purpose and leaders to enunciate those purposes. Checks and balances are in place to protect you against data mining, my point is that the only real protection you have are those you implement yourself.

Then I do not have any protections.
No one can go it alone. No one.

Back to the protests. I have attended a few.
I did not know how the Protest were going to Help.
It seems the protest did not Help. What will help?

I went to the Rally for Sanity and/or Fear.The one in was in Washington. There were a great many people there.

Is the message getting lost? That many people want to live Sane lives.
That is not too much to ask for. There was the Fear Fraction.
The Fear people are not usually a problem.
For the most part they do not seem to be really frightened.

What the heck was Occupy? I saw some weird stuff. What are the 'LaLa' words for that?
'It did not resonate with me.' I do understand, unfair and unequal distribution of wealth is a Huge Problem.

I did hear that message. But; What I saw at Occupy, where I was; Well...It had to be different at different places.
The People were doing strange things. I saw what I Know to be very advantaged people hanging out and camping inside a city. They would stay up all night long and sleep during the day? I have no idea what good that does.

Was the idea to occupy Wall Street? They missed.

The civil rights movement had an impact on the well being of all people. It did!
The quality of life for many people was better because of the civil rights movement.
The White, The Black, The Everybody.

I think Dr. King's Dream has come true.
We do live in a World where a human is judged not by the color of his/her skin, but by the content of their character.
That is really good. Of course, we fall short sometimes. Many of us get it Right!

Of course, there will always be Jackasses. Most people are constrained by cultural norms.
Our cultural norms are not as Racist as they once were. No way nearly as Racist.

Now I am stumbling really off topic.
Spoiler:
The Race Thing; I have known Black Amaericans that moved from a Racist part of the nation to a not-Racist part of the nation. Sometimes we would talk about The Black Experence.

More than once I have been told it was nice to belong to an oppressed group.
I know it sound weird. But; After the laws were changed it was, kind of, nice.

The people had developed social norms that were formal and dignified.
During all that difficult History, People found ways of telling each other,
"I'm going to 'Be There' for you." and "It's ok; I'm here."

After the laws changed some of the formal and informal behaviors remained.
That is what people have told me they miss.

Examples?
Men and Boys hold doors and say, "Auntie" or "Sister".
Women hold doors too. Some say, "Bless You." and other sweet things.

A Black person of any age or gender would wait for another Black person and walk with them.
Sometimes they would talk; Sometimes they would say a few words and, just, walk together.

I have been told the children were taught to be very, very honest and careful about their appearance.
They say they feel like they are representing all of their people, so they have to be good.

There was a politeness that seems to be easing up.
On the street a black person nearly always acknowledged other black people.

I have spoken to people that miss the sense of being one of many special people.
That kind of behavior was very useful when Black People were treated badly at best.

Many have maintained their formal ways.
Some White people have picked those ways up.
It is difficult to tell who's culture is bleeding into who's.

Did the Whites learn from the Blacks? Yes.
Did the Blacks learn from the Whites? Yes.

It does not matter. Except; Our Law makers want to Turn Back Time.
The fairness that is the promise of Rule of Law is under attack.

The data mining is beyond me.
I know anybody that wants my communications can have them.
I would not put up a fight. I will simply hand it over.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Some of us see The Gutter.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Angua » Fri Jun 14, 2013 11:12 am UTC

Crabtree's bludgeon: “no set of mutually inconsistent observations can exist for which some human intellect cannot conceive a coherent explanation, however complicated”
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Fri Jun 14, 2013 12:31 pm UTC

More information on these secret court rulings, National Security Letters and FISA.

And in here is why I picked this particular thread title:

In a secret court in Washington, Yahoo’s top lawyers made their case. The government had sought help in spying on certain foreign users, without a warrant, and Yahoo had refused, saying the broad requests were unconstitutional.

The judges disagreed. That left Yahoo two choices: Hand over the data or break the law.

So Yahoo became part of the National Security Agency’s secret Internet surveillance program, Prism, according to leaked N.S.A. documents, as did seven other Internet companies.

[...]

The Yahoo ruling, from 2008, shows the company argued that the order violated its users’ Fourth Amendment rights against unreasonable searches and seizures. The court called that worry “overblown.”

“Notwithstanding the parade of horribles trotted out by the petitioner, it has presented no evidence of any actual harm, any egregious risk of error, or any broad potential for abuse,” the court said, adding that the government’s “efforts to protect national security should not be frustrated by the courts.”
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby LaserGuy » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:05 pm UTC

Bloomberg is reporting that there may in fact be thousands of companies involved in sharing information, often voluntarily, with government intelligence agencies, in exchange for various benefits from the government.

Some U.S. telecommunications companies willingly provide intelligence agencies with access to facilities and data offshore that would require a judge’s order if it were done in the U.S., one of the four people said.

In these cases, no oversight is necessary under the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act, and companies are providing the information voluntarily.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Fri Jun 14, 2013 4:16 pm UTC

The worldwide side-effects continue, and Sweden is banning the use of Google cloud services for government use, in part because

A risk assessment by the Board determined that the contract gives Google too much covert discretion over how data can be used, and that public sector customers are unable to ensure that data protection rights are protected.

The assessment gives several examples of this deficiency, including uncertainty over how data may be mined or processed by Google and lack of knowledge about which subcontractors may be involved in the processing. The assessment also concluded that there was no certainty about if or when data would be deleted after expiration of the contract.


There's no direct indicator that PRISM was a key reason, but I'm sure it won't help the case that other countries aren't trusting Google's data protection.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Aaeriele » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:42 am UTC

Steax wrote:The worldwide side-effects continue, and Sweden is banning the use of Google cloud services for government use, in part because

A risk assessment by the Board determined that the contract gives Google too much covert discretion over how data can be used, and that public sector customers are unable to ensure that data protection rights are protected.

The assessment gives several examples of this deficiency, including uncertainty over how data may be mined or processed by Google and lack of knowledge about which subcontractors may be involved in the processing. The assessment also concluded that there was no certainty about if or when data would be deleted after expiration of the contract.


There's no direct indicator that PRISM was a key reason, but I'm sure it won't help the case that other countries aren't trusting Google's data protection.


Given that it's the second time that particular case came around, I'm pretty sure it's completely unrelated to PRISM.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Sat Jun 15, 2013 1:48 am UTC

Yes, and the EU has had issues with the cloud for a while too now. Thing is, PRISM certainly isn't going to help win their trust any time soon. It's to point out that other countries do have trust issues with even US companies' privacy, so yes, PRISM will probably have an effect on how worldwide governments view the cloud, internet, and tech world.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Aaeriele » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:05 am UTC

Steax wrote:Yes, and the EU has had issues with the cloud for a while too now. Thing is, PRISM certainly isn't going to help win their trust any time soon. It's to point out that other countries do have trust issues with even US companies' privacy, so yes, PRISM will probably have an effect on how worldwide governments view the cloud, internet, and tech world.


Then it's a poor example. Better would be something actually specifically relevant, like http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... n-them-too
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Weeks » Sat Jun 15, 2013 2:31 am UTC

Wow that article title. "I'm from Europe, am I considered a "foreigner" too?"
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Sat Jun 15, 2013 3:15 am UTC

Aaeriele wrote:
Steax wrote:Yes, and the EU has had issues with the cloud for a while too now. Thing is, PRISM certainly isn't going to help win their trust any time soon. It's to point out that other countries do have trust issues with even US companies' privacy, so yes, PRISM will probably have an effect on how worldwide governments view the cloud, internet, and tech world.


Then it's a poor example. Better would be something actually specifically relevant, like http://www.businessweek.com/articles/20 ... n-them-too


I admit that mine a poor example, yeah. That article is much better.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Heisenberg » Mon Jun 17, 2013 6:11 pm UTC

Hey, look, a journalist prof came up with a quick reply to this sort of thread-derailing criticism:
morriswalters wrote:The data exists. If you think it isn't being mined with or without permission by someone then I would suggest you are gullible.

"Don't savvy me." New shorthand: only 14 characters. It means: Stop dismissing valid questions with the insider's, "and this surprises you?"

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Mon Jun 17, 2013 8:18 pm UTC

Everybody who is anybody, has been warning of this for years. I could give you a list but it would be wasted. Welcome to the singularity. This is what it means when things become unpredictable after a certain point. They do and have had the capacity to capture this data for years. And they've shown their willingness to do things like this in the past. You can't stuff the genie back into the lamp. There will probably be legislation about this, and mea culpas. This would be the song that I have heard sung before. My kids used it when they got caught. "I'll be good, I promise." And time will pass. The Twitterverse will move on, and it will be out of sight, out of mind. The collective attention span for impossible to solve problems is about the length of a Twit. The time to say 128 characters out loud.

Private businesses do this, not just the government. You're for sale. Your online persona is owned. You give it away like it was something of no value and then piss and moan about it. You accepted the technology, you bought into the system. People who truly care have been talking and pushing, including the EFF the open source movement. But eventually everybody gets sucked in. If the data didn't exist in a form that is useful to them then they couldn't look. Public Key Encryption and various schemes used for secure communications could be used. The aren't developed because most people don't care.

You carry a cell phone. This phone is tracked. Ii probably has a camera. My best guess would be that the camera could be activated from the network, how would you know? It has a microphone, I would guess that this could be switched on remotely to. I laugh at web cams. I gave mine away. I know they can be hacked. Your personal computer is certainly hackable. I spend a lot of effort to avoid that, but I can't be sure. Connect my door locks to the internet. Fuck that. But morons will. You are in and you can't get out. I don't remotely find this type of thing amusing. What I laugh at is your surprise. When I did the amateur things that you do when you're younger, I didn't talk about it on the phone, or in my house. I acted as if the world were listening. And that for a minor felony. I never lost that.

"Don't savvy me", that's the spirit. Do you know an alternate meanings for twit?

twit
1 [twit] Show IPA verb, twit·ted, twit·ting, noun
verb (used with object)
1. to taunt, tease, ridicule, etc., with reference to anything embarrassing; gibe at. Synonyms: jeer at, mock, insult, deride.
2. to reproach or upbraid. Synonyms: chide, scold, rebuke, criticize, revile, castigate.
noun
3. an act of twitting.
4. a derisive reproach; taunt; gibe.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:00 am UTC

The noun for Twitter updates is Tweet. A twit is what you're being: a silly and annoying person.

Of course, I already coined the 13-character verb "morriswalters" to mean arguing vehemently against a position no one else has been proposing. Here you're doing that against the notion that this is somehow a surprising revelation.

No need to make it this personal --Zamfir

Who in this thread has expressed surprise? Who didn't figure this was probably already going on for years?

Who, in other words, are you expecting to impress with your hipster cred, "I was wary about government invasion of privacy before it was cool" nonsense?
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:05 am UTC

It's like a child stealing a jar of candy. Nobody's surprised they did it, but we all still get to tell them off and discuss how to further safeguard our candy.

In any case, the PRISM revelation has got several tech companies to start openly publishing at least the amount of requests they get, and some companies also reveal what they do and do not store as cleartext (e.g. Apple claims imessage and facetime are encrypted end-to-end). And yes, of course this disclosure is probably part of the NSA's attempt to get people to calm down, and of course we don't know the truthiness in what they claim. But at least the sad truth is out, and hopefully everyone can start being more careful about their online communications.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby dii » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:01 am UTC

Microsoft reveals backdoors in Windows to NSA.

http://techrights.org/2013/06/15/nsa-and-microsoft/

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 18, 2013 9:48 am UTC

@gmalivuk
I'm too creaky for hipster cred, too unfamiliar with the world as people think it is. I think twit is more descriptive of the level of communication with twitter. Thus my response to Heisenberg. That the thread was started indicates people were surprised. In big letters at the top of the page? I haven't seen a thread named "gmalivik" is rude. It's not surprising, therefore not worthy of discussion. But since you insist that people aren't surprised I will take you at your word. At which point this topic is no longer worth talking about.

@Steax
On my way out the door I would say my point, such that it is, that what the government is doing is neither surprising nor upsetting. The data is collected and exists. The danger has and will continue to exist despite legislative safeguards. If the government does what people fear it might do, it will simply ignore those safeguards, as they have done in the past. Given that caveat they offer zero safety. And even if the government doesn't abuse it, the data is subject to theft and misuse even so. This already happens on a daily basis. The desire to believe that what the government might do is any worse than what big business does is my point of surprise. And people, rather than taking the problem into their hands proactively, seem to want to seek a palliative measure that is more akin to a security blanket than any real protection.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:11 am UTC

Surprise is not a requirement for something to be worth of discussion. I started the thread to speak my thoughts on the issue and to hear others' opinions, as well as to keep track on how the public response goes. And yes, it's upsetting for me, who likes the tech world's typical view on user privacy and I'm watching it be forced to bend by the US government. It's in no way surprising - if anything, it's confirming what a lot of us thought was happening.

And the disucssion has brought around benefit, even in your point of view. Users are realizing that they need to take matters into their own hands. Other governments and organizations are abandoning public clouds and learning how to secure their own data properly. Exposing a threat is a great motivator in getting things to change. I know the US government will always bypass their own laws when they want to, as they always have and as all governments worldwide have. I don't expect them to admit or even fix this.

dii wrote:Microsoft reveals backdoors in Windows to NSA.

http://techrights.org/2013/06/15/nsa-and-microsoft/


I wonder if it's provable if the bugs are planted deliberately instead of "hey, we just found this bug, let's go tell the NSA!"
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:27 am UTC


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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby HungryHobo » Tue Jun 18, 2013 10:55 am UTC

There's a difference between suspecting something and having it confirmed.

I might strongly suspect that OJ was a murderer.
That isn't news.
Lots of people suspect that.

Conclusive proof that he definitely did would however be news.

People often assume that government agencies spy on their populations but proof of such is still news.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:05 am UTC



What about that?

And it's worth nothing that iOS already has pretty much that, and I'm pretty sure the other mobile OSes have something to that level. I don't see your point.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby dii » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:08 am UTC

Steax wrote:
dii wrote:Microsoft reveals backdoors in Windows to NSA.

http://techrights.org/2013/06/15/nsa-and-microsoft/


I wonder if it's provable if the bugs are planted deliberately instead of "hey, we just found this bug, let's go tell the NSA!"


Either way, they're finding security holes and deliberately disclosing them to the NSA so that NSA can use them to spy on people's computers.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:42 am UTC

It depends on your point of view. The death of the women was a fact long before the question of guilt came into play. After that point it's gossip, other than to the jurors. If your interested in protecting your privacy you act before the fact. This is no different then locking your front door. Discussing it after the fact is damage control. Steax's answer shows the limit of his thought to this point. Interconnection is the problem. Private clouds or public clouds make no difference. If your connected then you face risk. Ask any bank. Risk is something you manage, not something to eliminate. The way to protect your data is not to rely exclusively of the government to do it. If you except the premise that the government exists to protect you through law, then you accept, de facto, that the government will collect this data. This since the things you want it to protect you from, exist in the realm of data. If they don't look at it they can't protect you. But to this point they can't read what doesn't exist. Terrorists probably understand this better than you. The government faces the same issues, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Steax wrote:What about that?

And it's worth nothing that iOS already has pretty much that, and I'm pretty sure the other mobile OSes have something to that level. I don't see your point.
I don't think so. Perhaps you should read your app permissions more closely. But the point is not does IOS have it, but why would you accept it if it didn't?

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Tue Jun 18, 2013 11:52 am UTC

I'm sorry, I don't think I understand your point at all. What are you trying to tell me? Why does it matter? Accept what? Accept the theoretical nonexistence of granular permission controls? I don't know, because I was never in such a situation, but typically I don't share information I don't need to apps I don't trust. And I don't see how this relates at all to the topic at hand.

And what do you mean by "I don't think so"? My apps clearly show a confirmation when they ask for photo, calendar, GPS and contacts access, and I can allow or disable them from a list.

See, this is why throwing a single word with a link to some article might sound clever, but completely make no sense to everyone else. I can't even argue with you if I don't know what you're trying to say.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:46 pm UTC

Steax wrote: And what do you mean by "I don't think so"? My apps clearly show a confirmation when they ask for photo, calendar, GPS and contacts access, and I can allow or disable them from a list.
Ok, I believe you. What value does the app have if you refuse it permission for the access it needs to do what it does? And once you give it you're done. Take your contact list, they only have to ask once for you to give it, and then it's not yours anymore, you gave it away and now depend on the kindness of strangers to protect your data. The hack in question serves up a blank. Do you see?

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby HungryHobo » Tue Jun 18, 2013 12:51 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:The way to protect your data is not to rely exclusively of the government to do it. If you except the premise that the government exists to protect you through law, then you accept, de facto, that the government will collect this data. This since the things you want it to protect you from, exist in the realm of data. If they don't look at it they can't protect you. But to this point they can't read what doesn't exist. Terrorists probably understand this better than you. The government faces the same issues, otherwise we wouldn't be having this discussion.


I think you may be having a different discussion to anyone else here.

I don't rely on the american government to protect my data. at all. however it's apparently been collecting it anyway through third parties who I did trust with some fractions of my data.

I'm not particularly interested in the US government protecting me from anything in the realm of data.

If they don't look at it they can't protect you? of course they can. That's just an absurd false dilemma

There's a reason that back in the old days police traditionally needed to get a warrant to read your mail, listen in to your phone calls and search your house. People accepted they needed to give police some special powers sometimes but the NSA just trawls everything looking for anything interesting without a need for that.

The problem with these kinds of programs can be summed up by this amazing post:

http://www.reddit.com/r/changemyview/co ... to/caeb3pl

the purpose of this surveillance from the governments point of view is to control enemies of the state. Not terrorists.


With this tech in place, the government doesn't have to put you in jail. They can do something more sinister. They can just email you a sexy picture you took with a girlfriend. Or they can email you a note saying that they can prove your dad is cheating on his taxes. Or they can threaten to get your dad fired. All you have to do, the email says, is help them catch your friends in the group. You have to report back every week, or you dad might lose his job. So you do. You turn in your friends and even though they try to keep meetings off grid, you're reporting on them to protect your dad.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:17 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:
Steax wrote: And what do you mean by "I don't think so"? My apps clearly show a confirmation when they ask for photo, calendar, GPS and contacts access, and I can allow or disable them from a list.
Ok, I believe you. What value does the app have if you refuse it permission for the access it needs to do what it does? And once you give it you're done. Take your contact list, they only have to ask once for you to give it, and then it's not yours anymore, you gave it away and now depend on the kindness of strangers to protect your data. The hack in question serves up a blank. Do you see?


I understand that point, and yes, once data is given to a 3rd party I basically trust them not to screw with it. So I only use services I trust, and the vast majority of services don't have access in the first place (because they don't need it). I know some services do this, which is why I don't give it out without thinking. And yes, I know this happens all the time. What does this have to do with the rest of the topic? And how was your link in relation to anything anyone's said before? We all know it probably happens. What we didn't know were the scale, how it would be done, who would be involved, and all those other juicy details.

Is it really that hard to imagine why we'd want to talk about it?
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 18, 2013 1:46 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote:I don't rely on the american government to protect my data.
We can be sure than that you don't rely on the 4th amendment or any body of law to protect you from interference or abuse from either the government itself or private industry.
HungryHobo wrote:however it's apparently been collecting it anyway through third parties who I did trust with some fractions of my data.
You trusted poorly, assuming all the while that you could.
HungryHobo wrote:I'm not particularly interested in the US government protecting me from anything in the realm of data.
I disagree. You depend on regulations and statute to prevent those people you trust from screwing you over, or do you think either Microsoft or Google loves you?
HungryHobo wrote:If they don't look at it they can't protect you? of course they can. That's just an absurd false dilemma
No, I don't think so. The obvious counter example is how do they prove that you have child porn on your hard drive unless they can find it by looking?
HungryHobo wrote:There's a reason that back in the old days police traditionally needed to get a warrant to read your mail, listen in to your phone calls and search your house. People accepted they needed to give police some special powers sometimes but the NSA just trawls everything looking for anything interesting without a need for that.
I was paranoid before you were born. That Reddit post sounds profound. After a while you recognize profoundness for what it is, inexperience on the part of the listener. From the founding of the FBI, J Edgar used it like his personal blackmail repository. His agents broke and entered, wiretapped, bugged and watched whoever he wanted them to.(As did local law enforcement and companies and private individuals). They also attacked organized crime, managed to solve some civil rights crimes and did general law enforcement well. I don't need Reddit to tell me what the government does. It's a mixed bag. It's debatable if the NSA is evil or at odds with the members of society. That depends on human factors. I don't know. But most people aren't at risk. They aren't worth watching, for any reason.


Steax wrote:Is it really that hard to imagine why we'd want to talk about it?
Not a bit.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby NSAtooMuch » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:36 pm UTC

-
Last edited by NSAtooMuch on Wed Jun 19, 2013 1:50 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Jun 18, 2013 2:56 pm UTC

NSAtooMuch wrote:That said, I believe I've made my point clear in this thread earlier: PRISM is not an issue for Americans. Period. I don't know how much to reveal to you guys, but this program is designed for snooping on the emails of two terrorists from Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda members use Gmail and Facebook. Al Qaeda members are in fact, on Facebook right now, messaging each other. These enemies are provably non-citizens, provably not in the US, and are talking about useful information.


Sure, but if the only way that you can prove that these people are non-citizens, not in the US, and talking about useful information is to gather up everybody's information and sift it so that all of the juicy parts fall out, I think citizens have every right to be justifiably concerned about this sort of dragnet approach.

NSAtooMuch wrote:If the PRISM program is shut down, we would be telling our enemies to use Gmail and Facebook to gain immunity from the NSA.


I think that is a perfectly reasonable price to pay to protect our rights. I'm far more concerned about what the government is doing than what Al Qaeda is.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby A duck » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:04 pm UTC

NSAtooMuch wrote:That said, I believe I've made my point clear in this thread earlier: PRISM is not an issue for Americans. Period. I don't know how much to reveal to you guys, but this program is designed for snooping on the emails of two terrorists from Al Qaeda.



So it's an issue for non-Americans. And if you're only trying to snoop on the emails of two guys, why are you checking out [italics]all[/italics] the emails.
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Kulantan » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:13 pm UTC

NSAtooMuch wrote:If the PRISM program is shut down, we would be telling our enemies to use Gmail and Facebook to gain immunity from the NSA.

Well there are also these things called warrants which if you have a suspicion with evidence you can get information about specific individuals.

As for PRISM being a non-issue for Americans:
Q&A with Edward Snowden wrote:
Anthony De Rosa wrote:17 June 2013 2:18pm
1) Define in as much detail as you can what "direct access" means.

2) Can analysts listen to content of domestic calls without a warrant?


1) More detail on how direct NSA's accesses are is coming, but in general, the reality is this: if an NSA, FBI, CIA, DIA, etc analyst has access to query raw SIGINT databases, they can enter and get results for anything they want. Phone number, email, user id, cell phone handset id (IMEI), and so on - it's all the same. The restrictions against this are policy based, not technically based, and can change at any time. Additionally, audits are cursory, incomplete, and easily fooled by fake justifications. For at least GCHQ, the number of audited queries is only 5% of those performed.

2) NSA likes to use "domestic" as a weasel word here for a number of reasons. The reality is that due to the FISA Amendments Act and its section 702 authorities, Americans’ communications are collected and viewed on a daily basis on the certification of an analyst rather than a warrant. They excuse this as "incidental" collection, but at the end of the day, someone at NSA still has the content of your communications. Even in the event of "warranted" intercept, it's important to understand the intelligence community doesn't always deal with what you would consider a "real" warrant like a Police department would have to, the "warrant" is more of a templated form they fill out and send to a reliable judge with a rubber stamp.

Glenn Greenwald follow up: When you say "someone at NSA still has the content of your communications" - what do you mean? Do you mean they have a record of it, or the actual content?

Both. If I target for example an email address, for example under FAA 702, and that email address sent something to you, Joe America, the analyst gets it. All of it. IPs, raw data, content, headers, attachments, everything. And it gets saved for a very long time - and can be extended further with waivers rather than warrants.


And on the topic of wider issue of "non-issue for Americans":
Q&A with Edward Snowden wrote:More fundamentally, the "US Persons" protection in general is a distraction from the power and danger of this system. Suspicionless surveillance does not become okay simply because it's only victimizing 95% of the world instead of 100%. Our founders did not write that "We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all US Persons are created equal."
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Steax » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:16 pm UTC

NSAtooMuch wrote:If the PRISM program is shut down, we would be telling our enemies to use Gmail and Facebook to gain immunity from the NSA.


And thanks to the existence of PRISM (and the leak), all the enemies have now stopped using Gmail and Facebook, and are now probably using non-american services which the NSA can't sneak into so easily. Yay!
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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:19 pm UTC

@NSAtooMuch
I could care less about PRISM per se. If the capability exists, then it will be misused. And being sworn to protect Americans is a good thing. However the best of intentions can lead to the worst of crimes. It all depends on how you view protecting Americans. That conceit was used to round up Japanese Americans at the onset of WW2. Woodrow Wilson used it to clamp down on opposition to WW1.

I accept it as a part of being alive. There is no way to escape it. I have secrets and I keep them, but they are not secrets the government would be interested in. And if I had secrets of that particular nature than my behavior here would be different if I participated at all. The fact that the NSA does what they do matters to me not at all. However the idea that secrets are so secret that we can't debate them is antithetical to peoples idea of an open democracy. As I don't believe in that particular conceit either, I ignore it. We don't have an open democracy and haven't for some time in my opinion. If in point we ever had it. And it amuses me that people trust in business so much. Businesses are run by people, for their purpose not mine.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby dii » Tue Jun 18, 2013 3:29 pm UTC

NSAtooMuch wrote:The NSA however, is different. It is an agency of the US Government and is sworn to protect Americans. Part of that is of course... upholding the Constitution. That is why people are rightly pissed off when they see evidence of the US Government spying on them. The Constitution is the symbol of the trust between Americans and their Government. Its important that both sides uphold their end of the Constitution.

That said, I believe I've made my point clear in this thread earlier: PRISM is not an issue for Americans. Period. I don't know how much to reveal to you guys, but this program is designed for snooping on the emails of two terrorists from Al Qaeda. Al Qaeda members use Gmail and Facebook. Al Qaeda members are in fact, on Facebook right now, messaging each other. These enemies are provably non-citizens, provably not in the US, and are talking about useful information.


So what gives America the right to spy on non-Americans? I've never given permission to any American agency to violate my privacy. They're violating my rights.

Sworn to protect Americans? Please. Sworn to protect the status quo, more like. If you really want to protect Americans, stop the atrocious foreign policy and drone strikes that slaughter innocent civilians. Giving up freedom and privacy is not a good trade even if it gives you some kind of imaginary sense of security.

If the PRISM program is shut down, we would be telling our enemies to use Gmail and Facebook to gain immunity from the NSA.


Maybe even your "enemies" deserve privacy. What happened to innocent before proven guilty? At this rate, everyone is an "enemy" of America. And so far, NSA spying has been used to protect the corporate interests of American corporations. That's why no one trusts USA anymore.

If you want a controversy, talk about Verizon metadata, which is somewhat tied to the controversial Patriot Act. I've put my thoughts on the issue in the other thread already. But PRISM is definitely a non-issue.


Just because it doesn't concern you doesn't make it a "non-issue". You can't just ignore ethics whenever it's convenient for you. American lives aren't any more valuable than the lives of non-Americans, and the rights of Americans aren't any more important than the rights of non-Americans. We're all humans here.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Zamfir » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:23 pm UTC

So what gives America the right to spy on non-Americans? I've never given permission to any American agency to violate my privacy. They're violating my rights.

Sure, though for us non-americans there's not much point in complaining at the US government directly. We don't have much clout directly, not even in large numbers. Better to aim at indirect channels. Both through your own government, and through the companies in question. Large IT firms have some political clout in the US, and I bet that several were never happy at sharing data with the government. They won't like losing eyeballs, and they would hate to see protective barriers against US firms pop up around the world.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby Chen » Tue Jun 18, 2013 4:54 pm UTC

dii wrote:So what gives America the right to spy on non-Americans? I've never given permission to any American agency to violate my privacy. They're violating my rights.


You can't give permission for someone to spy on you, since by definition it would no longer be spying. Espionage is gathering information WITHOUT the permission of those you're gathering it from.

Sworn to protect Americans? Please. Sworn to protect the status quo, more like. If you really want to protect Americans, stop the atrocious foreign policy and drone strikes that slaughter innocent civilians. Giving up freedom and privacy is not a good trade even if it gives you some kind of imaginary sense of security.


Giving up your own freedom and privacy for security is probably not a good idea. Making others give up their freedom and privacy so you can be safe? Its not immediately obvious why that isn't a course of action that helps your citizens, especially if you're a country that is powerful enough to enforce it. Is it morally wrong? Tough question. I certainly wouldn't conclude all spying is "wrong" but there probably is a line that can be drawn somewhere to say how much foreign spying starts becoming morally questionable.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:20 pm UTC

dii wrote:So what gives America the right to spy on non-Americans? I've never given permission to any American agency to violate my privacy. They're violating my rights.


If it makes you feel any better, your country may well be spying on Americans. The gigantic loophole that the NSA is pointedly not talking about is the fact that other "friendly" countries may have similar programs in place--there's been some talk about Canada's sort of equivalent program, for example, and while the Canadian spy agency can't spy on Canadians, they can spy on Americans; the NSA can't spy on Americans, but they can spy on Canadians. And the two governments currently have various agreements in place that allow them to share intelligence. So the NSA can legitimately say that they're not spying on Americans while still having access to all of the data on Americans, because they've outsourced the job of spying on Americans to Canada.

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Re: PRISM: NSA access to big tech companies because trrrrist

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jun 18, 2013 5:28 pm UTC

Ah so. :twisted:


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