Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby roband » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:09 pm UTC

Seems like things have gone quiet. Any locals know what the current haps are?

edit: supposedly the "stay indoors" request has been lifted. I imagine people will be slow to react to this, if nothing else, out of cautiousness.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby studyinserendipity » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:44 pm UTC

Yes, the shelter-in-place has been lifted, MBTA is going to start running again (although I don't know the exact time.) I'm a town over from the shelter-in-place area, and the traffic outside has increased greatly. It looks like people are feeling relieved to be outside. I know I'm planning on at least running a couple minor errands this evening.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby roband » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:47 pm UTC

Awesome, good luck.

If they can't find the fucker - I hope he's left the area.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Diadem » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:52 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Diadem wrote:you can make sure he can't leave the area without being spotted.
How are you supposed to make sure he can't leave without being spotted when you've only posted people along main roads? Is he driving a large truck and obeying "no trucks" signs on side streets? Does he respect private property laws enough to avoid going through people's back yards? Is he marked on police GPS with a red circle, like in a video game?

Look, I know you love been a vitriolic dick here on these forums, but could you at least not spout total nonsense while doing that?

Draw a circle on a piece of paper, put your pen in the middle of the circle. Then, without taking your pen off the paper, move it outside the circle without touching the border. Can you see why you are unable to do this?

But perhaps the suspect has an airplane, or is really good at digging tunnels...
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby natraj » Fri Apr 19, 2013 10:58 pm UTC

i think you may just be vastly underestimating the manpower needed to actually DRAW that circle without making it a dotted line, when that circle is an impermeable perimeter of police over a mile or so of city.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Belial » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:00 pm UTC

You're not talking about a circle, though. You're talking about posting people on streets. Making an actual circle would require a tremendous amount more officers.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby roband » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:09 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:But perhaps the suspect has an airplane, or is really good at digging tunnels...
Dude, you're on a fucking website. Talking about shit that you're not out there DOING.

Does that not make you question the point of being an arsehole in this situation? Who fuckin cares? You know what he meant.

People are fucking dead and you're talking bollocks about specifics. Fuck that.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:18 pm UTC

Diadem wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:
Diadem wrote:you can make sure he can't leave the area without being spotted.
How are you supposed to make sure he can't leave without being spotted when you've only posted people along main roads? Is he driving a large truck and obeying "no trucks" signs on side streets? Does he respect private property laws enough to avoid going through people's back yards? Is he marked on police GPS with a red circle, like in a video game?

Look, I know you love been a vitriolic dick here on these forums, but could you at least not spout total nonsense while doing that?

Draw a circle on a piece of paper, put your pen in the middle of the circle. Then, without taking your pen off the paper, move it outside the circle without touching the border. Can you see why you are unable to do this?

But perhaps the suspect has an airplane, or is really good at digging tunnels...
Yes, thank you, I am aware of how circles work.

The issue here, though, is that you apparently don't understand how streets or a finite number of human-sized police officers work.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:27 pm UTC

natraj wrote:i think you may just be vastly underestimating the manpower needed to actually DRAW that circle without making it a dotted line, when that circle is an impermeable perimeter of police over a mile or so of city.

Well, let's do the math. The diameter being a mile means that the circumference of the circle would be 3.14 miles...multiply that by 5040 to get the number of feet, and assuming that each person stands about two feet broad, then it should require 8294 people standing shoulder to shoulder to...well, be the circle. But it is probably more than a mile. Assuming no houses, then it should require ~13000 people to fill the entire circle (actually that doesn't sound right at all). A second check shows that to fill the entire area requires more like five million people which is probably wrong too.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby WibblyWobbly » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:43 pm UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
natraj wrote:i think you may just be vastly underestimating the manpower needed to actually DRAW that circle without making it a dotted line, when that circle is an impermeable perimeter of police over a mile or so of city.

Well, let's do the math. The diameter being a mile means that the circumference of the circle would be 3.14 miles...multiply that by 5040 to get the number of feet, and assuming that each person stands about two feet broad, then it should require 8294 people standing shoulder to shoulder to...well, be the circle. But it is probably more than a mile. Assuming no houses, then it should require ~13000 people to fill the entire circle (actually that doesn't sound right at all). A second check shows that to fill the entire area requires more like five million people which is probably wrong too.


Not to mention that the last time I checked, a mile had 5,280 feet in it*. But that only makes the estimate worse to try in real life, because it adds, what, another 750 feet or so? A few hundred more people for that perimeter?

Now, an effective perimeter doesn't actually have to be a human chain. And if you're comfortable assuming your suspect is not going to flee on foot, or that people, say, 10 feet apart could spot him if he was, you might be able to get away with placing officers only on roads or spreading them out to cover more ground. But that's still easily hundreds of officers you're going to commit for a single circle just a HALF-MILE in radius. You had damn well better be sure that your suspect is in that location and isn't going anywhere while you transport all the necessary people into the area. Because if you commit several hundred officers to a big drum circle and your suspect goes off to bomb some more innocent people, you're going to have so much egg on your face they'll toss you into a frying pan just to make a frittata out of your stupid ass.


*5040 is, however, 7!, and as I like all factorials, I'm okay with this estimation.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby firechicago » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:47 pm UTC

In the wake of reports that the suspects are Chechnyan, Czech amabssador clarifies that Chechnya and the Czech Republic are not, in fact, the same place.

To mangle an Ambrose Bierce quote: "Terrorism is God's way of teaching Americans geography."

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Diadem » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:48 pm UTC

natraj wrote:i think you may just be vastly underestimating the manpower needed to actually DRAW that circle without making it a dotted line, when that circle is an impermeable perimeter of police over a mile or so of city.

Perhaps. That may be a valid criticism, and I'm sure there are other sensible objections, and some of those must even be true (since it obviously isn't that simple in practise). Unfortunately that's not what Gmalivuk was doing, he was instead making vitriolic remarks about it using extremely stupid arguments. Regardless of the truth or falsity of my original question, that deserved calling out, since stuff like that happens too often here, and that sucks. (And I'll be the first to admit that my record there ain't spotless either).

As for the number of officers needed. A 1 km radius circle would require only 30ish officers assuming clear vision (they'd only need to see about 100m away). You probably need signifantly more since not all roads will be straight, you don't want them to be too obvious targets and probably in pairs. But I really don't see why the required numbers should be impossible. They must have hundreds if not thousands of police in the area by now.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby roband » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:50 pm UTC

And of course, those hundreds, if not thousands, have been sitting with their thumbs up their arses all this time?

Or, by the sounds of it, they've been working into getting the fucker cornered - like he is right now.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:52 pm UTC

WibblyWobbly wrote:*5040 is, however, 7!, and as I like all factorials, I'm okay with this estimation.

Ah, that is why that number felt right. In my first estimation I used 5280, but then for the second I guessed what number it was again and apparently came up with 7! instead.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Apr 19, 2013 11:56 pm UTC

Nah, that's about right. A mile's over 5,000 feet.

In practice, trees, houses, etc are gonna mess up your circle, so you're gonna have a somewhat irregular line, so you'll need even more folks at any given density.

You also, naturally, don't want to space people out too much, all by themselves. One guy, all alone in the middle of the street, is kind of a recipe for getting shot. Then, you need additional teams inside to clear the houses and such...it can be a big, slow effort, with a lot of chances for someone to slip by.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby firechicago » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:03 am UTC

Diadem wrote:As for the number of officers needed. A 1 km radius circle would require only 30ish officers assuming clear vision (they'd only need to see about 100m away). You probably need signifantly more since not all roads will be straight, you don't want them to be too obvious targets and probably in pairs. But I really don't see why the required numbers should be impossible. They must have hundreds if not thousands of police in the area by now.

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that "being able to see the suspect" equals "being able to stop the suspect." In reality it would be a stretch to assume that they could even identify the suspect at 100 meters, or even 50. And even if they do identify the suspect, it's far from certain they would be able to stop the suspect before he escaped across the street and out of their cordon, at which point we're back to a foot chase through suburbs full of hiding places and innocent civilians waiting to jump out and make the cops lose points.

So while puting someone every meter is obviously silly, it's a lot closer to the truth of what you'd actually need than putting someone every hundred meters.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby addams » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:07 am UTC

firechicago wrote:In the wake of reports that the suspects are Chechnyan, Czech amabssador clarifies that Chechnya and the Czech Republic are not, in fact, the same place.

To mangle an Ambrose Bierce quote: "Terrorism is God's way of teaching Americans geography."

It's still War. The War on or of Terror is, still, War.
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What?! Chechnya. Of course, we have all heard the word.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:22 am UTC

Diadem wrote:he was instead making vitriolic remarks about it using extremely stupid arguments.

You were talking out your ass about a super stressful thing that's happening in my city near the homes of people I know. You're fucking right I made vitriolic remarks in response.

And my stupid arguments were appropriately scaled to the level of ridiculous oversimplification you were engaging in.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Diadem » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:23 am UTC

firechicago wrote:
Diadem wrote:As for the number of officers needed. A 1 km radius circle would require only 30ish officers assuming clear vision (they'd only need to see about 100m away). You probably need signifantly more since not all roads will be straight, you don't want them to be too obvious targets and probably in pairs. But I really don't see why the required numbers should be impossible. They must have hundreds if not thousands of police in the area by now.

You seem to be operating under the misapprehension that "being able to see the suspect" equals "being able to stop the suspect." In reality it would be a stretch to assume that they could even identify the suspect at 100 meters, or even 50. And even if they do identify the suspect, it's far from certain they would be able to stop the suspect before he escaped across the street and out of their cordon, at which point we're back to a foot chase through suburbs full of hiding places and innocent civilians waiting to jump out and make the cops lose points.

So while puting someone every meter is obviously silly, it's a lot closer to the truth of what you'd actually need than putting someone every hundred meters.

Just seeing the suspect is huge though. The difference between "somewhere around here 15 minutes ago" and "at this exact spot 10 seconds ago" is huge.

Anyway. I get that it's not that simple. I'm just still not sure why. I suppose it's a combination of factors. They started out at night which obviously complicates matters. And if there's civilians around things get more complicated too. Or perhaps I'm overestimating how many officers they have available. Does anyone have a number on that?
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby JBJ » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:30 am UTC

Lots. Lots of police.

And at this point, it appears that they have him cornered. Watching MSNBC. There was an exchange of gunfire on Franklin St. in Watertown around 7pm local time. It appears he was hiding in a boat in someone's backyard, where he may have been all night. Reports are that the resident noticed blood leading to their boat and police were called. Police are proceeding with caution as they are unsure if he still has any explosive devices. Last reports from thermal imaging is that he is still alive, but unknown if he is wounded.*

*Edit - obviously he would be wounded if there was a blood trail, but unknown as to the extent of his wounds.

Update - According to MSNBC he's now in custody and alive. They are asking for a medic.
Update again - confirmed on Boston PD twitter. He's in custody.
Last edited by JBJ on Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:48 am UTC, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Thesh » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:31 am UTC

CNN is reporting that police have located the second suspect, and that shots may have been fired. Unconfirmed so far.

http://news.blogs.cnn.com/2013/04/19/li ... in-boston/
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:48 am UTC

The Reddit thread has also reported that the suspect has been captured alive... with a medic on route.

I think the other news agencies are taking it down a notch, after screwing up reporting all week, they are finally being more cautious about what they report.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:49 am UTC

They located him hours ago. Now they're saying he's captured.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:51 am UTC

Uggh.... Reddit is unreliable. (no duh >_<)

EDIT 376: 8:47PM Confirmed once more - suspect is in custody. Conflicting reports about suspect being dead and suspect being treated by an EMS. I will not make any claims to either point. They are still calling an ambulance.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby MisterCheif » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:54 am UTC

KnightExemplar wrote:Uggh.... Reddit is unreliable. (no duh >_<)

EDIT 376: 8:47PM Confirmed once more - suspect is in custody. Conflicting reports about suspect being dead and suspect being treated by an EMS. I will not make any claims to either point. They are still calling an ambulance.


That's based on conflicting reports from different police scanner channels. Not on the person transcribing them to reddit.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Nylonathatep » Sat Apr 20, 2013 12:54 am UTC

According to CNN, they have him in custody.. also arrested 3 other people in connection to the bombing...
(Sources from Radio in AM 680 Toronto Area)

The series of event since yesterday feels like an episode of 24.

Edit:

Boston police: Marathon bombings suspect 'in custody'
Last edited by Nylonathatep on Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:27 am UTC, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:02 am UTC

I will say, as someone who rarely watches the news, this whole weeks events have cemented in my mind how utterly fucking useless 'breaking news broadcasts' are.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby WibblyWobbly » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:11 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I will say, as someone who rarely watches the news, this whole weeks events have cemented in my mind how utterly fucking useless 'breaking news broadcasts' are.


This! (The exclamation mark is a factorial, to describe how much "This" I mean by "This")

It's hard to remember a recent time so many different sources of "journalism" fell over one another so often to be so very, very wrong.

But Boston PD tweets confirmation? Good enough for me. What does our Boston contingent think? A huge sigh of relief? Elation, perhaps?



Also reminded by the BPD twitter feed: let us not forget to reflect on the victims - Martin Richard, Lingzi Lu, Krystle Campbell and Officer Sean Collier.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby studyinserendipity » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:19 am UTC

aaaaaand commence all the people-on-the-street interviews.

EDIT: also commence "boat in Watertown" jokes.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:31 am UTC

From my facebook feed: "Lifeguard captured in boat on land in Watertown." (Apparently he worked as a lifeguard at Harvard about two years ago.)
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby WibblyWobbly » Sat Apr 20, 2013 1:44 am UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:From my facebook feed: "Lifeguard captured in boat on land in Watertown." (Apparently he worked as a lifeguard at Harvard about two years ago.)

I hate to say it, but I'm already waiting for the Dzokhar Tsarnaev "I'M ON A BOAT" meme.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Apr 20, 2013 2:55 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I will say, as someone who rarely watches the news, this whole weeks events have cemented in my mind how utterly fucking useless 'breaking news broadcasts' are.


Fox Affiliate identifies Zooey Deschanel as suspect.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Sat Apr 20, 2013 4:56 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Izawwlgood wrote:I will say, as someone who rarely watches the news, this whole weeks events have cemented in my mind how utterly fucking useless 'breaking news broadcasts' are.


Fox Affiliate identifies Zooey Deschanel as suspect.

That is a pretty understandable error. They probably had the kind of closed captioning system that parsed what it heard and printed what it thought you said. Like a google search, "You said 'Dzhokhar Tsarnaev'. Did you mean, 'Zooey Deschanel'? I'm sure you did."

Still funny though.

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Lucrece » Sat Apr 20, 2013 5:36 am UTC

Image

Well, at least they might have a chance at getting an excuse out of him for this atrocity.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Princess Marzipan » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:16 am UTC

I'm seeing a lot of twitter chatter about this fellow not yet having been read his Miranda rights.

Thaaaat is really not sitting okay with me.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby roband » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:19 am UTC

Criminals get that right, do 'terrorists'?

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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:33 am UTC

The Miranda Warning is not all-encompassing. It was established in 1984 that in cases of public safety, the suspect can be interviewed before the Miranda Warning. Police are expected to ask him if he planted any other bombs in the area. So here's the question: do you want his Miranda Warning given to him before or after he answers that question? Its a practical safety issue. He was throwing bombs out the car, and planting bombs at MIT before this whole incident started. I think its important for them to pull that information out of him.

There are limitations to the public safety exception to Miranda. I'll look into it a bit more... I expect that after asking him about the location of other bombs and so forth, he'll be read his Miranda Warning before further questions are asked.

Of course, it probably doesn't matter at all, given the amount of hard evidence we have against this guy. It could be that they're just going to say "Fuck this guy's self incrimination, we have the evidence we need", and will just strongarm any other information out of him. The interview will not be allowed into court (because he didn't have his Miranda Warning), but the Police probably will win the case anyway.

roband wrote:Criminals get that right, do 'terrorists'?

*I'm not American, I have no idea


The issue here is the 5th Amendment: we have a right against self-incrimination... we have the right to remain silent, a right to a lawyer before answering questions, etc. etc. If any evidence is gathered outside of the public safety exception before the Miranda Warning is said... it will not be allowed in court, and it will not be allowed to be told to the jury.
Last edited by KnightExemplar on Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:42 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby Belial » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:40 am UTC

As long as nothing he says before the warning is admissable, I'm good with it.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby KnightExemplar » Sat Apr 20, 2013 7:58 am UTC

Belial wrote:As long as nothing he says before the warning is admissable, I'm good with it.


Same here. I'm not entirely comfortable with admitting evidence before the warning. Although... they can do whatever they want with him if none of his statements are going to court.

Things look interesting though. The details of the Public Safety Exception are here: http://www.fbi.gov/stats-services/publi ... gal_digest

Requirements:
1. Public Safety
2. Limited Questioning (only related to Public Safety)
3. Voluntary

Under these three circumstances, you are allowed to admit pre-Miranda statements as evidence. My main problem is the contradiction between 3 and the Miranda Warning... if it were voluntarily given... then the suspect would give it after his Miranda Rights were told to him anyway.

This is clearly a public safety issue, because they need to know if he has any other accomplices, planted bombs anywhere else, or has a timer set to go off. It is clear that "extensive questioning" will be a contradiction of #2. And any forceful coercion will negate #3.
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Re: Bombing at Boston Marathon Finish Line.

Postby clintonius » Sat Apr 20, 2013 8:09 am UTC

Anything he says pre-Miranda, in response to questions attempting to alleviate the public safety issue, will still be admissible. Police are not allowed to interrogate him except as to the immediate public safety concern. However, if he chooses to admit to things beyond the scope of the public safety issue without being questioned (or prompted? That's a sticky issue in the law) about those things, that is also admissible. The latter point may or may not matter. Prosecutors don't really need you to make a full-blown confession if they're able to show a jury that you correctly pointed out the locations of hidden explosives. Confessions solve some technical problems like proving mindset, but practically speaking, admitting that you know the location of explosives is the nail in your defense's coffin.

A quick note:
KnightExemplar wrote:Police are expected to ask him if he planted any other bombs in the area. So here's the question: do you want his Miranda Warning given to him before or after he answers that question? Its a practical safety issue. He was throwing bombs out the car, and planting bombs at MIT before this whole incident started. I think its important for them to pull that information out of him.
Even before the suspect is read his Miranda rights, anything he says still has to be voluntary. The exception means that he doesn't get a lawyer and isn't informed that he can remain silent. It doesn't mean the officers get to use any kind of special interrogation techniques that are otherwise prohibited by Miranda.

Edit: aww, ninja'd.

Edit 2:
KnightExemplar wrote:Under these three circumstances, you are allowed to admit pre-Miranda statements as evidence. My main problem is the contradiction between 3 and the Miranda Warning... if it were voluntarily given... then the suspect would give it after his Miranda Rights were told to him anyway.
It's not actually a contradiction, it's just that "voluntary" is a legal term of art and does not refer to its dictionary meaning. It doesn't mean without any prompting, as in, "to volunteer the information." It is in reference to the 5th Amendment prohibition of compelled self-incrimination, and a voluntarily-given statement is one that is not improperly coerced by the police. The big difference between Mirandizing and invoking the public safety exception in the Boston bombing case has to do with the last point in my first paragraph. The cops are trying to get this guy to tell them where he has planted explosives. If he were Mirandized, he would almost certainly demand a lawyer. Any lawyer worth his/her salt is going to tell their client not to answer any questions regarding the locations of bombs, because of how condemning that admission would be. He's much more likely to give up the information if he doesn't have to do against the advice of counsel.
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