The Darker Side of the News

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sardia
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Mon Feb 11, 2019 5:51 pm UTC

Judging by the Israeli response and Congress, The boycotts aren't nothing. Nobody pushes a ban just for the heck of it. Well besides Trump.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby SDK » Mon Feb 11, 2019 6:48 pm UTC

ucim wrote:A boycott is ultimately just a bunch of people not buying stuff. I'm not even sure how one would prohibit a boycott. Force people to buy stuff?

Jose

If you read the article linked, it's talking about the states refusing to do business with certain companies if those companies are boycotting Israel. It's not talking about individuals.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:40 pm UTC

SDK wrote:If you read the article linked, it's talking about the states refusing to do business with certain companies if those companies are boycotting Israel. It's not talking about individuals.
Same thing. Boycotts don't have to be by individuals - they can be individual entities ("legal persons")... the idea being that if they act as a group they have clout. However it is the individual (persons/corporations/states) that are doing the doing (or the not doing), which is something they have the right to do (or not do).

Do they not?

So in essence, the states are boycotting companies that boycott Israel. Looks like it's working as designed.

(Note - I'm taking no position on the underlying issue - just on the idea of making a boycott illegal.)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Mon Feb 11, 2019 8:43 pm UTC

Chen wrote:National origin is generally one of the protected classes
It is in America as well, but nation of residence, employment, or operations aren't. Political issues aside, discrimination along those classes needs to be permitted for logistical and legal issues.

Politics not aside, it's not discrimination for people having political views, but for their actual (or at least alleged) actions. Discriminating against individuals for their actions is universally accepted. Discrimination against groups for their actions isn't ideal, but sometimes practicality makes that necessary; the key question is how much sense does it make to think of the group having collective agency (for example is considered fine to discriminate against a corporation for it's corporate policy, because that's totally something that can be deliberately changed).
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Mon Feb 11, 2019 10:43 pm UTC


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Mon Feb 11, 2019 11:15 pm UTC

Yep.
And; That make it Wrong.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:06 am UTC

Probably the same line as why the voting rights act was struck down. "That's in the past, don't need it now". Very short sighted at best, disgraceful at worst.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Coyne » Tue Feb 12, 2019 3:48 am UTC

ucim wrote:A boycott is ultimately just a bunch of people not buying stuff. I'm not even sure how one would prohibit a boycott. Force people to buy stuff?

Jose

You are correct, it can't be done. You have to keep the very idea of a boycott from sprouting and spreading. That is why why it is so "important" to go after the people who promote or incite boycotts. Just like you go after people who promote or incite anti-oil, anti-sugar or anti-slaughter boycotts. And, I might add, with what I think to be just as much legality, here in the US (none).
In all fairness...

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:21 am UTC

Coyne wrote:That is why why it is so "important" to go after the people who promote or incite boycotts. Just like you go after people who promote or incite anti-oil, anti-sugar or anti-slaughter boycotts.
It might be effective, but that doesn't make a boycott right or wrong. (I think we are in agreement here.) It's a technique used to apply pressure, and that pressure can resist evil just as well as it can promulgate it.

It's like free speech.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby EveBladence » Tue Feb 12, 2019 9:15 am UTC

Whatever your politics on the Israeli/Palestinian issue, this executive order is clearly unconstitutional as it prevents US citizens from engaging in free political speech. Boycotting has been used by US citizens as a means to protest for civil rights, protest the actions of companies that we don’t agree, even the South Africa’s apartheid system. Contrary the the governors assertion, the BDS movement is not racist against Israelis or the Jewish faith, the a movement protesting the near apartheid conditions that exist between Israel and the Palestinians. It is a US citizens right to protest in the manner we see fit so long as it isn’t violent. Our government should not be putting our constitutional rights behind their support of Israel.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Soupspoon » Tue Feb 12, 2019 11:03 am UTC

Can one boycott the states who wish to boycott the boycotters? Could another boycott one who does?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Dauric » Tue Feb 12, 2019 12:59 pm UTC

Soupspoon wrote:Can one boycott the states who wish to boycott the boycotters? Could another boycott one who does?

Asking for a friend (of a friend (of a friend (…))).

Boycotts, it's boycotts all the way down.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:14 pm UTC

And where are the girlcotts in all of this? Another case of (e)mail domination?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:18 pm UTC

ObsessoMom wrote:I can't help thinking that these anti-BDS laws are trying to preemptively undercut effective tactics like those.
I think the anti-BDS people all assume that the BDS people are insincere in their motivations.

For my part, I think they sincerely believe the other side is insincere in their beliefs.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:17 am UTC

AIPAC taking all but 3 freshmen Congresspeople to Israel.

Note: Above linked article is not reputable due to bias. See articles further on below for other examples.

I actually wonder why. Is it for the reason stated by the article? Is it for other reasons? Some combination of these?
Last edited by gd1 on Thu Feb 14, 2019 8:05 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby natraj » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:37 am UTC

that's literally not all but 3 freshmen congresspeople that's ~50 of the freshmen congresspersons and there are over 100 freshmen in congress since last election like why lie about something so blatantly easily disproven?

more bizarrely, why include those three on the list when also like... 40some others are also not going.

eta: oh, nevermind, i see, it's because you're posting an article from 2015 as if this is news. did obama being president not tip you off?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 6:35 am UTC

It happens every so often.
Another article from this year to corroborate.

I assumed that other one would be something to talk about.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:02 am UTC

You are pulling from mondoweiss. Stay away from the webshites.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:26 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:You are pulling from mondoweiss. Stay away from the webshites.


What is mondoweiss?

Also, the term for websites... have to work that into a html conversation someday...
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:36 am UTC

Uh... the website YOU linked to a few posts back. It's biased to the point of worthlessness.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Thu Feb 14, 2019 7:54 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Uh... the website YOU linked to a few posts back. It's biased to the point of worthlessness.


I'll have to keep that in mind. I hope the other ones are more reputable?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Feb 14, 2019 5:01 pm UTC

I don't know if they are, but I know I don't know they are not. So, maybe?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Link » Tue Feb 19, 2019 6:50 pm UTC


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Mutex » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:06 pm UTC

In the UK that would definitely fall afoul of "incitement to violence" laws. He's no different to, say, Abu Hamza who used to stand in the street shouting that Muslims should rise up and kill westerners. Are there any similar laws in the US, or would that violate the 1st amendment?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Angua » Tue Feb 19, 2019 7:09 pm UTC

This was an interesting article the BBC did on the difference between the US and UK. It mainly focuses on harassment of individuals though.
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Wed Feb 20, 2019 1:33 am UTC

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:42 am UTC


Wasn't this happening since Cordary decided to run for office Ohio? Seems kinda old news.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ObsessoMom » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:06 pm UTC

Clamour for vaccines as measles outbreak kills nearly 1,000 children in Madagascar

Nearly four in 10 of the population have not received the two vaccinations required to protect them from measles, far below the 95 per cent level that constitutes “herd immunity”, meaning that enough people are protected against the disease to deny it a foothold.

The low uptake has little to do with the “anti-vax” philosophy that has taken hold in pockets of the West. Whereas in the rich world, measles vaccines are abundant and often available for free, most in Madagascar are desperate to inoculate their children but cannot do so.


(That first quoted sentence is sloppily written--it should say "Only six in 10 of the population have received...far below the 95 percent level that constitutes 'herd immunity'..." And technically, two doses are not, as the article says, actually required for every patient--often the first dose works to give someone immunity. A blood test can determine whether a second is needed. But still.)

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Feb 20, 2019 6:38 pm UTC

Mutex wrote:In the UK that would definitely fall afoul of "incitement to violence" laws. He's no different to, say, Abu Hamza who used to stand in the street shouting that Muslims should rise up and kill westerners. Are there any similar laws in the US, or would that violate the 1st amendment?

Spoilering due to language used in examples of what is and is not permissible by the 1st Amendment, also trigger warning as first link is to the editorial in question.
Spoiler:
I'm no lawyer, but based on my understanding of 1st Amendment law the editorial is on the lawful side of it, because he never explicitly says "The KKK should murder people". The closest he gets is saying that the KKK should raid the neighborhoods of Democrats. He does not explicitly say what they should do while they're there, and if questioned would no doubt just say "They should march and remind the Democrats that their ideas aren't supported by a segment of the US population" or similar. Because there's only the implication of murder, not the direct command.

It's legal to say "Times were easier when the KKK kept blacks in their place"

It's not legal to say "The KKK should lynch these people."

It's even less legal to say "Someone should lynch these specific people"

See also - Brandenburg v Ohio
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby KittenKaboodle » Wed Feb 20, 2019 9:14 pm UTC

While the first editorial may well have not crossed the line, much like He Who Shall Not Be named, when confronted with backlash to his statements ( https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/2019/02/18/alabama-newspaper-ku-klux-klan-to-night-ride-again-linden-democrat-reporter-goodloe-sutton/2910436002/ ) Sutton doubled down; "We'll get the hemp ropes out, loop them over a tall limb and hang all of them," ""... It's not calling for the lynchings of Americans. These are socialist-communists we're talking about. Do you know what socialism and communism is?"

John 8:7 ,hmm, doesn't sound to me like Sutton is much of a follower our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, <sarcasm> perhaps the Crusades should ride again? </sarcasm>

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby eran_rathan » Thu Feb 21, 2019 4:28 pm UTC

One would think that at the very least the secondary statements as noted by KittenKaboodle would be harassment, as in https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-13a- ... -11-8.html (though, IANAL).
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby gd1 » Thu Feb 21, 2019 11:47 pm UTC

eran_rathan wrote:One would think that at the very least the secondary statements as noted by KittenKaboodle would be harassment, as in https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-13a- ... -11-8.html (though, IANAL).


Eran_rathan said a bad word...


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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Sableagle » Thu Feb 28, 2019 11:47 am UTC

gd1 wrote:
eran_rathan wrote:One would think that at the very least the secondary statements as noted by KittenKaboodle would be harassment, as in https://codes.findlaw.com/al/title-13a- ... -11-8.html (though, IANAL).


Eran_rathan said a bad word...
What, Lawyer?

I wonder about the legal situation regarding shooting KKK members bearing ropes. See one in uniform coming towards you with a rope, know you're black and/or a registered Democrat and/or a campaigner for socialist stuff (like kids getting free vaccinations), shoot him as soon as he gets within 7 metres and claim self-defence. Viable?
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby addams » Thu Feb 28, 2019 12:29 pm UTC

KittenKaboodle wrote:While the first editorial may well have not crossed the line, much like He Who Shall Not Be named, when confronted with backlash to his statements ( https://www.montgomeryadvertiser.com/story/news/2019/02/18/alabama-newspaper-ku-klux-klan-to-night-ride-again-linden-democrat-reporter-goodloe-sutton/2910436002/ ) Sutton doubled down; "We'll get the hemp ropes out, loop them over a tall limb and hang all of them," ""... It's not calling for the lynchings of Americans. These are socialist-communists we're talking about. Do you know what socialism and communism is?"

John 8:7 ,hmm, doesn't sound to me like Sutton is much of a follower our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ, <sarcasm> perhaps the Crusades should ride again? </sarcasm>
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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby sardia » Wed Mar 06, 2019 12:14 am UTC

https://www.npr.org/2019/03/05/68878617 ... s-the-rich
Every time a natural disasters strikes, the rich get richer and the poor get poorer. Why? Because of policies to protect taxpayers from losses.
protecting 10 families in $1 million houses has the same value as protecting 100 families in $100,000 houses

The reasons seem very similar to voter fraud protections. Simple safeguards disproportionately affect poor people more because they can't handle strict administrative requirements. Usually cause their lives are one small emergency away from disaster.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:17 pm UTC

The simplest remedy would appear to be to place a cap on individual payouts, similar to how FDIC only insures the first (at present) $250k.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:50 pm UTC

But but but what if some imaginary family farmer has millions of dollars of damage to his cornfields, why shouldn't we raise that cap to cover his imaginary butt?

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby Chen » Wed Mar 06, 2019 8:28 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:The simplest remedy would appear to be to place a cap on individual payouts, similar to how FDIC only insures the first (at present) $250k.


If you look at the example in the article that would do nothing to change the two stories. The family who was renting got $2500 presumably because they didn't lose any expensive real estate. It should be fairly evident that poor people are going to be less able to mitigate loss/damage from disasters just because they have less resources saved.

I mean the article said it took months before the rich family's federal aid came in. The poor family may have even gotten the money faster (its implied but not explicitly specified) but they were still unable to cope due to having less savings. The rich family example was supported by one company (Microsoft) and presumably their savings. The other family didn't get support from work and presumably had little savings because they used their money to buy a car since they now needed that to get to/from work and school. Forgetting anything about the government aid they were getting, the two stories diverge immediately with no government intervention at all. The poor family was precarious enough that anything that caused them to move a distance that required a car seems like it would have been a disaster for them.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ijuin » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:16 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:But but but what if some imaginary family farmer has millions of dollars of damage to his cornfields, why shouldn't we raise that cap to cover his imaginary butt?

Anybody who has millions of dollars worth of anything is more able to endure the damage than someone who did not have millions. Even four million is more than the total birth-to-death lifetime income of most of the impoverished people whom we are speaking of as needing the most protection.

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Re: The Darker Side of the News

Postby ucim » Wed Mar 06, 2019 9:33 pm UTC

ijuin wrote:Anybody who has millions of dollars worth of anything is more able to endure...
...except he probably also has millions of dollars of debt. Now the farm is wiped out and he still owes the money. Simple questions don't always have simple answers.

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