Gun Control

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Tyndmyr
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Re: Gun Control

Postby Tyndmyr » Thu Aug 07, 2014 5:27 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:also...the shot spread thing isn't me supporting the idea that a shotgun is better for home defense....it's just one of the things that people cite as a reason to suggest a shotgun for home defense.

the only reason I would suggest a shotgun for home defense is the near idiot proof functionality of most shotguns.


Understood...yeah, shotguns usually tend towards easy maintainability and use, which is a plus. Like with most activities, your introduction into shooting is best done on something simple. Make it easy to understand, and encourage practice. An AR isn't THAT hard to learn, but it's not all the way at the simple end of the spectrum.

Firearms are fairly accessible regardless of stature. My little sister started shooting seriously at twelve. She's always been a fairly small person, but she was fine with a 12ga then. Practice, posture, etc make a huge difference, but firearms are largely not about physical stature. In fact, women are considered to have an advantage when first learning to target shoot, thanks to a lower center of gravity. This isn't so important later in a target shooting career, but determining what to use should be a matter of what you're comfortable with, not based on what is "appropriate" for your gender.

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addams
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Re: Gun Control

Postby addams » Thu Aug 07, 2014 7:51 pm UTC

If The Job is not done in Five Rounds,
You are not doing it Right. (right?)

Shot guns are fun guns.
But; Really?

A woman is highly unlikely to be swinging such a thing around inside the house.
She, most likely, loves her home and does not want to hurt it or her GrandMother's do-dads.

Who knows what makes people choke up?
And; The stupid shit they do shoot, when they shoot?

I know in days gone past, Things were shot.
A person would be angry at another person and not shoot the person, but shoot some other thing.

People were funny.
Those were salt of the earth, church going people.

They had, "Thou shalt not kill." drilled into their heads.
That voice was overwhelmed by the voice from their other shoulder.

The Devil was repeating over and over in a Slow and Convincing voice.
"He has it coming. He has it coming."

People are not any better, today.
Today many seem to only have the voice of the Devil.

Who gaged the Angel within?
Back to guns.

Shot guns are fun.
They don't All kick like Mules.

That is an expensive dangerous toy.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

DSenette
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Re: Gun Control

Postby DSenette » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:19 pm UTC

addams wrote:If The Job is not done in Five Rounds,
You are not doing it Right. (right?)

Shot guns are fun guns.
But; Really?

A woman is highly unlikely to be swinging such a thing around inside the house.
She, most likely, loves her home and does not want to hurt it or her GrandMother's do-dads.

Who knows what makes people choke up?
And; The stupid shit they do shoot, when they shoot?

I know in days gone past, Things were shot.
A person would be angry at another person and not shoot the person, but shoot some other thing.

People were funny.
Those were salt of the earth, church going people.

They had, "Thou shalt not kill." drilled into their heads.
That voice was overwhelmed by the voice from their other shoulder.

The Devil was repeating over and over in a Slow and Convincing voice.
"He has it coming. He has it coming."

People are not any better, today.
Today many seem to only have the voice of the Devil.

Who gaged the Angel within?
Back to guns.

Shot guns are fun.
They don't All kick like Mules.

That is an expensive dangerous toy.

if you've got 5 rounds and they've got 6 guys you're pretty screwed. when you're talking about self defense, the most rounds that you can reasonably carry is the right number of rounds. even a loss of one round is something that should be considered when talking about home defense

IF as a woman you are unwilling to defend your home adequately because you might shoot a nick nack, then you should not be responsible for defense of your home.
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addams
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Re: Gun Control

Postby addams » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:34 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:
addams wrote:If The Job is not done in Five Rounds,
You are not doing it Right. (right?)

Shot guns are fun guns.
But; Really?

A woman is highly unlikely to be swinging such a thing around inside the house.
She, most likely, loves her home and does not want to hurt it or her GrandMother's do-dads.

Who knows what makes people choke up?
And; The stupid shit they do shoot, when they shoot?

I know in days gone past, Things were shot.
A person would be angry at another person and not shoot the person, but shoot some other thing.

People were funny.
Those were salt of the earth, church going people.

They had, "Thou shalt not kill." drilled into their heads.
That voice was overwhelmed by the voice from their other shoulder.

The Devil was repeating over and over in a Slow and Convincing voice.
"He has it coming. He has it coming."

People are not any better, today.
Today many seem to only have the voice of the Devil.

Who gaged the Angel within?
Back to guns.

Shot guns are fun.
They don't All kick like Mules.

That is an expensive dangerous toy.

if you've got 5 rounds and they've got 6 guys you're pretty screwed. when you're talking about self defense, the most rounds that you can reasonably carry is the right number of rounds. even a loss of one round is something that should be considered when talking about home defense

IF as a woman you are unwilling to defend your home adequately because you might shoot a nick nack, then you should not be responsible for defense of your home.

Wait a minute.
If I am defending my Nick Nacks and I shoot my Nick Nacks, what have I gained?

If there is a Six Man Team come to do me great harm, the Nick Nacks are on their own.
A shot gun blast through the side of a modest home might cause the place to be a bit drafty, come winter.

And; A Six Man Team may not co-operate and all stay inside the Cone of Destruction.
How fast can you Cock that thing?

A woman 4 foot 6 inches-4 foot 8 inches tall that can cock and fire a shotgun over and over;
Has got to be more muscle than bone.

All Muscle. Such a woman would be All Muscle.
The Abdominals on that woman must be impressive.

That is an imaginary woman.
Real women are often armed.

Real women don't get into The News, much.
There was that woman that ran over the man with an SUV.
She Backed Up and ran over him, again.

Nine Times!
Her StepDaughter was sitting beside her.

I was told the StepDaughter was cheering her on.
They were both Terrified of the man. (weird. I know)

What a wild story.
The adults were both attorneys.
They may have been fighting over Politics.

My Point?
(shrug) I don't know.
People do the darnedest things.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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CorruptUser
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Re: Gun Control

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Aug 07, 2014 8:49 pm UTC

3 Mafiosi stand outside a house. Their job is to clean up a 'mess' inside. The 'mess' pumps a shotgun. The Mafiosi could charge in and clean up, while the 'mess' would get one shot off. No one wants to be the first through the door. The result is that they leave, giving time for the 'mess' to flee.

So your 5 bullets 6 guys scenario? That's enough bullets. And besides, if six guys rush you all at once you won't take them out no matter how many bullets you have.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby DSenette » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:01 pm UTC

addams wrote:
DSenette wrote:
addams wrote:If The Job is not done in Five Rounds,
You are not doing it Right. (right?)

Shot guns are fun guns.
But; Really?

A woman is highly unlikely to be swinging such a thing around inside the house.
She, most likely, loves her home and does not want to hurt it or her GrandMother's do-dads.

Who knows what makes people choke up?
And; The stupid shit they do shoot, when they shoot?

I know in days gone past, Things were shot.
A person would be angry at another person and not shoot the person, but shoot some other thing.

People were funny.
Those were salt of the earth, church going people.

They had, "Thou shalt not kill." drilled into their heads.
That voice was overwhelmed by the voice from their other shoulder.

The Devil was repeating over and over in a Slow and Convincing voice.
"He has it coming. He has it coming."

People are not any better, today.
Today many seem to only have the voice of the Devil.

Who gaged the Angel within?
Back to guns.

Shot guns are fun.
They don't All kick like Mules.

That is an expensive dangerous toy.

if you've got 5 rounds and they've got 6 guys you're pretty screwed. when you're talking about self defense, the most rounds that you can reasonably carry is the right number of rounds. even a loss of one round is something that should be considered when talking about home defense

IF as a woman you are unwilling to defend your home adequately because you might shoot a nick nack, then you should not be responsible for defense of your home.

Wait a minute.
If I am defending my Nick Nacks and I shoot my Nick Nacks, what have I gained?

If there is a Six Man Team come to do me great harm, the Nick Nacks are on their own.
A shot gun blast through the side of a modest home might cause the place to be a bit drafty, come winter.

And; A Six Man Team may not co-operate and all stay inside the Cone of Destruction.
How fast can you Cock that thing?

A woman 4 foot 6 inches-4 foot 8 inches tall that can cock and fire a shotgun over and over;
Has got to be more muscle than bone.

All Muscle. Such a woman would be All Muscle.
The Abdominals on that woman must be impressive.

That is an imaginary woman.
Real women are often armed.

Real women don't get into The News, much.
There was that woman that ran over the man with an SUV.
She Backed Up and ran over him, again.

Nine Times!
Her StepDaughter was sitting beside her.

I was told the StepDaughter was cheering her on.
They were both Terrified of the man. (weird. I know)

What a wild story.
The adults were both attorneys.
They may have been fighting over Politics.

My Point?
(shrug) I don't know.
People do the darnedest things.

you either have a skewed view of how hard it is to rack a pump shotgun, have a skewed view of the strength of most women, or have never heard of a semi-automatic shotgun.

if you're defending your knickknacks then you're doing home defense wrong. you're defending the life(lives) in your home, not the inanimate contents there of.

CorruptUser wrote:3 Mafiosi stand outside a house. Their job is to clean up a 'mess' inside. The 'mess' pumps a shotgun. The Mafiosi could charge in and clean up, while the 'mess' would get one shot off. No one wants to be the first through the door. The result is that they leave, giving time for the 'mess' to flee.

So your 5 bullets 6 guys scenario? That's enough bullets. And besides, if six guys rush you all at once you won't take them out no matter how many bullets you have.

which is why you leave your shotgun (or any gun) with a round in the chamber. you should not be making a great noise to let people know where you are by racking a round.

the myth that racking a slide or pumping a shotgun is enough to deter action is just that...a myth. racking the slide or pumping the shotgun only serves to give off your location in the structure. you might get lucky, and the guy might scoot, but if you're relying on that noise as your primary source of protection you might as well just get a tape player.
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CorruptUser
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Re: Gun Control

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Aug 07, 2014 9:52 pm UTC

No... Every ex cop I talked to, and I work with a few, has said that burglars have a fight or flight panic if they hear any noise, but are more likely to flee if they hear a shotgun pump.

If they are trying to murder you it's different, but generally most break ins aren't about harming you.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby morriswalters » Thu Aug 07, 2014 10:34 pm UTC

If any of you guys move into my neighborhood would you let me know so I can put bullet proof screens around my house to keep the bullets that fly around from killing me and mine. My preference for home defense is a 12 gauge with a pistol grip and the shortest legal barrel. I like secure doors and good lighting even more. A burglar alarm might also be nice. I would really rather only shoot my weapon at the range, so much less stressful.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby addams » Thu Aug 07, 2014 11:11 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:If any of you guys move into my neighborhood would you let me know so I can put bullet proof screens around my house to keep the bullets that fly around from killing me and mine. My preference for home defense is a 12 gauge with a pistol grip and the shortest legal barrel. I like secure doors and good lighting even more. A burglar alarm might also be nice. I would really rather only shoot my weapon at the range, so much less stressful.

Amen to Range Shooting.
Everything and everyone is so predictable.

I like that sort of environment, too.

MorrisWalters?
They already live in your Neighborhood.

It's the quiet ones Morris.
It's always the quiet ones.

Loads of people have lived realitivly Peacful lives in the middle of a fucking war.
Some Americans are attempting to do that.

Some are armed.
Some are Not armed.

It is hard to tell at a distance.
I have been Sooo surprised.

Little old ladies with a firearm holstered and she knows how to use it.
It makes me laugh. And; I know it's not funny.

Old people frightened of their own.
And, mad about it.

I don't know Who bit some of these Old People,
But; My advice is Don't Fuck With Them.

Of course, my mind tumbles forward.
Remember Rose? Rose....?Walker?

Yes. I think that is her last name.
What a Hoot Rose is. Has always been.

When Rose got to be Ninety.
They took her guns away.

She had developed a mean streak.
(shrug) We, humans, develop over the entire life span.

It sometimes looks like Un-development.
(shrug) What do I know?

Gun Control begins within.
Darned things are a lot of trouble.

I used one to hammer in a nail, one time.
The guy it belonged to, laughed.

Then he put the stupid thing away.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby EdgarJPublius » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:42 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:No... Every ex cop I talked to, and I work with a few, has said that burglars have a fight or flight panic if they hear any noise, but are more likely to flee if they hear a shotgun pump.

If they are trying to murder you it's different, but generally most break ins aren't about harming you.


The vast majority of burglars are not looking to commit violence and will not only seek to enter only unoccupied homes, but will flee at the first sign that a home is occupied.

Most criminals are relatively rational, and entering an occupied home greatly increases the risk of committing a crime, even ignoring the possible presence of a firearm. The occupant not only represents possible resistance, but also a witness who can call the cops and potentially identify the burglar, it's just not worth it.

However, there are certain types of burglars who are either actually intent on committing violence (aforementioned Mafiosi, gang members, etc. not a significant factor in most areas, but can be very significant in gang controlled neighborhoods, also general 'psychopaths', spree-killers and other types of violent criminal which are a miniscule proportion of the population) Or are not concerned/not cognizant of the risks (drug addicts, some rare cases of mental illness and etc. too, but mainly drug addicts, which can include alcoholics)


morriswalters wrote:If any of you guys move into my neighborhood would you let me know so I can put bullet proof screens around my house to keep the bullets that fly around from killing me and mine.



The 'Wild West' scenario has never been anything other than fantasy.

Only particularly violent gangs ever really get involved in gun-battles. The police do occasionally as well, but other legal firearm owners almost never do.
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Re: Gun Control

Postby morriswalters » Fri Aug 08, 2014 2:47 pm UTC

Yes, I'm aware. The only gun violence in my relatively poor neighborhood was a wife shooting and wounding her husband.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 08, 2014 4:51 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:if you've got 5 rounds and they've got 6 guys you're pretty screwed. when you're talking about self defense, the most rounds that you can reasonably carry is the right number of rounds. even a loss of one round is something that should be considered when talking about home defense

IF as a woman you are unwilling to defend your home adequately because you might shoot a nick nack, then you should not be responsible for defense of your home.


More is always better. That said, I would emphasize training first, quantity of rounds second. Untrained and poorly trained individuals tend to expend rounds approaching the capacity of the magazine. I include cops in this category, mostly. A round that doesn't hit is...a liability if anything. Might hit something else important, and does you little good. Additionally, marksmanship helps against one attacker or five.

Still, I'd rather have more rounds than I need than less. I prefer 30 round mags for the AR, because they're standard, they are reliable as hell(don't buy cheap, seriously), and they hold plenty. It seems relatively unlikely I will need to expend additional ammunition in most reasonable circumstances.

CorruptUser wrote:3 Mafiosi stand outside a house. Their job is to clean up a 'mess' inside. The 'mess' pumps a shotgun. The Mafiosi could charge in and clean up, while the 'mess' would get one shot off. No one wants to be the first through the door. The result is that they leave, giving time for the 'mess' to flee.

So your 5 bullets 6 guys scenario? That's enough bullets. And besides, if six guys rush you all at once you won't take them out no matter how many bullets you have.


I believe organized crime is known for sometimes shooting from outside...sometimes even from a car. Drywall makes a poor shield. That said...the world ain't all mafia. Most of the time, most of us are not expecting an attack, and will not reasonably dicern a threat from people who are still well outside the home. Probably not until they try to enter. So...first off, lock yer doors. All locks can be broken, but a good one buys you time. That's probably a more reasonable step than worrying about intimidation via shotgun.

I agree that most criminals will probably flee as soon as they see you. Especially if you're armed. Doesn't really matter with what...you shouldn't count on that, because they *might* not, but murder is still a fairly rare crime. Most criminals just want money/stuff.

morriswalters wrote:If any of you guys move into my neighborhood would you let me know so I can put bullet proof screens around my house to keep the bullets that fly around from killing me and mine. My preference for home defense is a 12 gauge with a pistol grip and the shortest legal barrel. I like secure doors and good lighting even more. A burglar alarm might also be nice. I would really rather only shoot my weapon at the range, so much less stressful.


I wouldn't sweat the bullet proofing. Unless you live in an *extremely* bad neighborhood, break-ins shouldn't be *that* frequent. Risk from missed shots should be remarkably low, unless break-ins are so ridiculously common that frankly, the break-ins dominate the risk equation anyway. Bullet proofing is very expensive, and often untenable anyway. Alarms are fine, good doors, lights, and locks are all great, and are reasonably priced/have other bennies.

Really, the economics of bullet proofing almost never work out. The people who are most subject to risk of violence are often poor, and unable to afford such expensive remedies.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby morriswalters » Sat Aug 09, 2014 12:48 am UTC

It was a weak attempt at humor. I don't worry about getting shot at. If however my next store neighbor did start blazing away with with anything it would be possible to get shot out of my bed. From the center line of the house on one side to the center line of the houses on the other side of me would be no more than 100 feet. Welcome to an old urban neighborhood. Houses close to me are closer than that. Some may be as close as 5 foot wall to wall. Very few brick structures. Which is why I favor a shotgun.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby addams » Sat Aug 09, 2014 3:22 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:It was a weak attempt at humor. I don't worry about getting shot at. If however my next store neighbor did start blazing away with with anything it would be possible to get shot out of my bed. From the center line of the house on one side to the center line of the houses on the other side of me would be no more than 100 feet. Welcome to an old urban neighborhood. Houses close to me are closer than that. Some may be as close as 5 foot wall to wall. Very few brick structures. Which is why I favor a shotgun.

That is so funny.
And; A resonable consern.

Once upon a time, my neighbor and her husband bought one another Huge hand guns for Christmas.

I liked her.
Never really knew him.

Drywall is extremely poor bulletproofing.
She and I talked about it.

At first she was offended that I was concerned about their guns.
After we talked a while, she laughed, too.

A bullet could go through the wall of her house, through the fence, though my house and kill someone in the street.
Never a shot fired in all the time we shared a fence.

She was easy to get along with.
I could always count on her to pull a splinter or get a tick or some darned thing.

I missed her when they got divorced and moved.
They managed to divorce without gunfire.

That's good.

Is it a good idea to get to know your neighbors?
I used to think that was a grand idea.

I'm not so sure, these days.
Is ignorance bliss?
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We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
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Re: Gun Control

Postby Azrael » Mon Aug 11, 2014 12:49 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:3 Mafiosi stand outside a house. Their job is to clean up a 'mess' inside. The 'mess' pumps a shotgun. The Mafiosi could charge in and clean up, while the 'mess' would get one shot off. No one wants to be the first through the door. The result is that they leave, giving time for the 'mess' to flee.

So your 5 bullets 6 guys scenario? That's enough bullets. And besides, if six guys rush you all at once you won't take them out no matter how many bullets you have.


This goes for many of the current participants: Have a rational, reality-based discussion of gun control issues or go somewhere else. One more ridiculous hypothetical like this (and the dozen prior from other participants), and I'll write this thread off and lock it.

Serious Business is not here to host ... whatever this has become.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Aug 11, 2014 6:29 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:It was a weak attempt at humor. I don't worry about getting shot at. If however my next store neighbor did start blazing away with with anything it would be possible to get shot out of my bed. From the center line of the house on one side to the center line of the houses on the other side of me would be no more than 100 feet. Welcome to an old urban neighborhood. Houses close to me are closer than that. Some may be as close as 5 foot wall to wall. Very few brick structures. Which is why I favor a shotgun.


Gotcha.

Possible, sure, but the probability would be reasonably low. And a shotgun would not appreciably reduce the risk at those ranges. There's nothing inherently wrong with a shotgun, but this is not a good reason to select a shotgun, as it can definitely still go through drywall and travel a short distance.

If you are concerned about missed shots, seek additional practice/training. Security is not something that is bought...it's something that is practiced. Firearms, locks, lights, etc...these are all merely tools. Tools are of some importance, but too much focus on tools over skills is misleading, I fear. This is something not limited to guns...in a great many things, people in the US tend to focus on buying a solution rather than learning.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby morriswalters » Mon Aug 11, 2014 7:59 pm UTC

Well so far I have resisted the urge to arm up. As much fun as shooting is to me I don't want guns in the house. In my more paranoid moments I think about it, but I slap it down and move on. I wish other people the best if they feel they need, to but not me. I try not to be where I'll need one and the odds favor me in that pursuit. The world isn't as dangerous as my paranoia would try to make me think it is.

edit
I do keep a steel pipe at hand in my bedroom, and that gives me a good feeling, but for whatever reason the children never paid any attention to it.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby addams » Tue Aug 12, 2014 12:44 am UTC

That's funny Morris.
I had some women watch me Beat the Shit out of some Trash with an Oak Dowel.

They had been bullying me.
They stopped bullying me.

One of them never spoke to me, again.

If you can get off one good shot with a Stick,
You can kick some Ass with one of those things.

Aim High, Morris.

Hey! Morris?
Do you ever Practice?
What do you use as a Target?

Even if your weapon of choice is a Stick, you should practice.
Be careful, Morris; I don't know how old you are.

Old people can really hurt themselves acting like they are 25, again.
The night after the day I Beat the Shit out of the Trash, I was limping.

So funny, Morris;
That really happened.

In 2014, that happened.
It is funny, Morris.

A person really should practice.
Aikido, Morris. It's fun and deadly.

Morris; Aim High is not always the right answer.
Taking one of those classes is such a fun thing to do and it provides you with useful information.

In class you get to take the stick away from other people.
Really strong people could lift my body weight.

We are Monkeys, Morris.
We hang on Really, Really well.

If someone gets a hold of your stick,
You need to know how to get it back.

Number One. Yell at them.
"Give me My Stick!"

You'd be surprised how well people respond to that.
But; Not always. Take a Class. It will be fun.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby morriswalters » Wed Aug 13, 2014 10:02 pm UTC

I never really thought about practicing with my steel pipe, or my 5 lbs sledge or my kitchen knives. The funny think about those weapons is that you get to practice when you do work with them.
addams wrote:That's funny Morris.
I had some women watch me Beat the Shit out of some Trash with an Oak Dowel.
I think like a rabbit, that way I don't have to act like a wolf. A side benefit to that is I don't find myself in a position very often that would require me to hurt or kill someone or to assault garbage cans. I like it that way.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby addams » Thu Aug 14, 2014 4:43 am UTC

oh, Morris;
Assaulting trash is fun.

You and I don't seem to be the sort that enjoy using an assault rife.
(shrug) Morris; Some people do.

It seems the 2nd Amendment First people are winning.
To be a responsible adult citizen in the US may involve knowing how to use a gun.
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Re: Gun Control

Postby Jeramy_Pal12 » Thu Aug 21, 2014 2:29 am UTC

Everything has two sides, gun can protect us and on another hand can do a favor to the murder to hurt us back.

Resently we have heard so many about the school shooting events, the innocent students had fallen victims. What the hell about the shooter,what did they want to show us? If they want to express the anger to the society, what`s wrong of the school students? Not only the Finland ,China has also full of such madman.I think the government and school should take some measurements to prevent the school kids from getting hurt.The school gate should install the security system guard's gate to detect the gun or knife(metal detector).It may be spend too much,but the life is worthless,we should protect the young life with any cost.

Gun chntrol policy has to take into effect in some west countries, in some public place like museum, or big important party , even the school.
Guard's gate for gun or metal detector as the walk through metal detector is the most important for the first step of security.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Tyndmyr » Sun Aug 24, 2014 2:32 am UTC

Some schools have indeed installed metal detectors.

I'm not a huge fan. First off, these incidents are incredibly rare. Secondly, those intent on mass shootings are rarely very stealthy, or intent on avoiding detection. They seem to invariably just walk in and start shooting. Detection at THAT point is trivial, and unhelpful. The problem is identifying them BEFORE they decide to go on a rampage.

And...most schools have multiple entrances. Or at least, they used to. More open, less bunkered fort. Given that violence is going down overall, it doesn't seem as if there's a practical case for intrusive searching and so forth in most cases. I'm not overly fond of the idea of training kids that they're subject to constant search over trivial reasons. Seems too much like training them to accept and expect TSA-like intrusions in normal life.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby ucim » Sun Aug 24, 2014 3:29 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I'm not overly fond of the idea of training kids that they're subject to constant search over trivial reasons. Seems too much like training them to accept and expect TSA-like intrusions in normal life.

This.

Very much this.

It doesn't take long either... ten years and a generation gets accustomed to submitting... in fact, feels naked if they are not searched everywhere they go. It's a surrender.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Jeramy_Pal12 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:02 am UTC

I agree with the policy of gun control.
Resently we have heard so many about the school shooting events, the innocent students had fallen victims. What the hell about the shooter,what did they want to show us? If they want to express the anger to the society, what`s wrong of the school students? Not only the Finland ,China has also full of such madman.I think the government and school should take some measurements to prevent the school kids from getting hurt.The school gate should install the security system guard's gate to detect the gun or knife(metal detector).It may be spend too much,but the life is worthless,we should protect the young life with any cost.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Jeramy_Pal12 » Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:04 am UTC

I agree with the policy of gun control.
Resently we have heard so many about the school shooting events, the innocent students had fallen victims. What the hell about the shooter,what did they want to show us? If they want to express the anger to the society, what`s wrong of the school students? Not only the Finland ,China has also full of such madman.I think the government and school should take some measurements to prevent the school kids from getting hurt.The school gate should install the security system guard's gate to detect the gun or knife(metal detector).It may be spend too much,but the life is worthless,we should protect the young life with any cost.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Aug 25, 2014 1:35 am UTC

Jeramy_Pal12 wrote:I agree with the policy of gun control.
Resently we have heard so many about the school shooting events, the innocent students had fallen victims. What the hell about the shooter,what did they want to show us? If they want to express the anger to the society, what`s wrong of the school students? Not only the Finland ,China has also full of such madman.I think the government and school should take some measurements to prevent the school kids from getting hurt.The school gate should install the security system guard's gate to detect the gun or knife(metal detector).It may be spend too much,but the life is worthless,we should protect the young life with any cost.


Why the hell would detection matter for mass shootings? They are not trying to avoid being caught. At least, not by the time of the shooting. Maybe if you have some way to diagnose them well beforehand, that would be useful, but...it seems irrelevant if the metal detector goes beep as they're shooting people randomly.

And I strongly disagree that any cost is worth paying. Not all costs are financial. The costs of systems like the TSA are expensive not only in dollars spent, but in time wasted, and in freedom lost. When you consider the extremely dubious value received for our existing widespread TSA system and the vast expense, I cannot imagine why anyone would wish for more of it.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby addams » Mon Aug 25, 2014 2:15 am UTC

Then a culture that takes the Responsibility seriously.
And; Stop fighting so ineffectually with one another.

If it is a Gun Culture it does not have to be a Bad Culture.
Irresponsible, immature behavior has deadly consequences.

We can and should talk about it.
We can and should change not the Letter of The Law, but its Spirit.

We can no longer afford childish men and women.
A gun in every hand will soon cull the heard.

Will the innocent die?
Yes! The innocent die, everyday.

At least when the dust settles we will have fewer Spoiled Immature Adults.
Post Traumatic Stress is not all that bad. Look at Europe after 1945.

Those people were running a 50% Post Traumatic Stress rate.
Look how well they did in the wake of years when the crime rate could not be measured.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby hppavilion1 » Wed Aug 27, 2014 1:08 am UTC

1) Never fired one. Have objected to using firearms for recreational reasons on personal grounds.
2) Gun control is tricky. I personally think they should be allowed generally, not because I like them (They SUCK. Very few circumstances in which they would be useful) but because banning them just adds another black market item like drugs to fund illegal activity
3) As I said, guns should be generally allowed because, although they are bad, it would give gangs and other people involved in illegal activity more stuff to fund themselves with. I agree with the OP, that there should be those basic limits, though "Felony" should be changed to "Violent Crime." Plenty of nonviolent felonies exist, and plenty of violent nonfelonies exist (I think.)

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Aug 27, 2014 7:05 pm UTC

With regards to your third point, this differentiation partially exists, in that some non-felony violent crimes may bar you from firearm ownership. This is imperfect in practice, of course, but I think logic used was somewhat similar to yours.

Similar rights restrictions have existed elsewhere, such as limiting computer access rights for someone who is convicted of significant hacking crimes and so forth. But yeah...restricting ALL felons from any rights without any relationship to the crime seems a bit much. One can, of course, extend this same argument to voting rights, which some jurisdictions seem a wee bit too eager to restrict, IMO.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Gnomish8 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 4:32 pm UTC

addams wrote:Then a culture that takes the Responsibility seriously.
And; Stop fighting so ineffectually with one another.

If it is a Gun Culture it does not have to be a Bad Culture.
Irresponsible, immature behavior has deadly consequences.


I think you nailed it. There was uproar around here a few years ago when the city passed legislation that required guns be secured, even when in the house. The exception was made for 1 handgun, unloaded, 1 shotgun, unloaded, or 1 firearm if you were licensed.

But I liked it. Because it forced firearm responsibility. The most important part about owning a firearm is securing it. Your gun will spend more time sitting than you will spend shooting it. If we look at the majority of our "mass murder" gun crimes, these firearms weren't legitimately acquired. In fact, most couldn't have gotten them if they wanted (too young, felon, etc...). But it was due to a legitimate gun owner failing to properly secure them that allowed them to happen.
Gun owners, myself included, need to learn that there's more responsibility in gun ownership than just responsibly shooting. You need to responsibly secure, too.

One of the biggest arguments against the mandatory locks/security on guns was "What about if I need to get to it quickly?"
There are methods out there.
I use one.
It's a small safe that sits by my nightstand. It's biometric. I just need to push a button and slap my hand on the top of it, and it unlocks, giving me access to my 9mm.

I hope I don't ever need to get to it quickly, but if I do, I can. And it's in a place that somebody in my house can't just grab it and take it away in a backpack or whatever.

But, I digress...

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:27 pm UTC

Gnomish8 wrote:I think you nailed it. There was uproar around here a few years ago when the city passed legislation that required guns be secured, even when in the house. The exception was made for 1 handgun, unloaded, 1 shotgun, unloaded, or 1 firearm if you were licensed.


The difference between one unsecured firearm and any other number seems mostly academic, doesn't it? I mean, secure storage is great, but...what real difference do you see in terms of access here?

But I liked it. Because it forced firearm responsibility. The most important part about owning a firearm is securing it. Your gun will spend more time sitting than you will spend shooting it. If we look at the majority of our "mass murder" gun crimes, these firearms weren't legitimately acquired. In fact, most couldn't have gotten them if they wanted (too young, felon, etc...). But it was due to a legitimate gun owner failing to properly secure them that allowed them to happen.
Gun owners, myself included, need to learn that there's more responsibility in gun ownership than just responsibly shooting. You need to responsibly secure, too.


Responsibility is important, sure, and secure storage is wise, and I concur that theft of legal guns for criminal reasons does happen. However, the need for securing firearms is more from a safety perspective(especially if you have kids) than theft prevention. You can take a gun lock apart in seconds with a dremel or what not(I have done this when I've lost a key, it's trivial), for instance. That's enough to stop a child from getting into it, sure, but a thief, once he's taken it, has all the time in the world to figure that out. Safes are similar, unless they are too large to be reasonably portable...and how many people honestly have a giant safe of that size in their home? It's great if you've got one, but such a requirement would seem to price firearm ownership out of the level of quite a few folks.

Currently, you can be prosecuted for carelessness that leads to injury, and safe storage is of course, part of that, but real security is something you practice, not merely something you buy. For one person, having three guns unsecured may be just fine. For another, having one gun unsecured may be too many. "One size fits all" rules are brittle and do not work well in practice, IMO.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Ixtellor » Fri Aug 29, 2014 5:53 pm UTC

DSenette wrote:if you've got 5 rounds and they've got 6 guys you're pretty screwed. when you're talking about self defense, the most rounds that you can reasonably carry is the right number of rounds. even a loss of one round is something that should be considered when talking about home defense

IF as a woman you are unwilling to defend your home adequately because you might shoot a nick nack, then you should not be responsible for defense of your home.


Here is my challenge.
Find any real life case (crime not war) where having fewer bullets/magazine capacity than criminals didn't solve the problem.

I.E. I believe that firing a single shot will cause any number of bad guys to leave. And in many cases just brandishing a firearm will cause all potential threats to retreat.

DSenette's argument is that criminals will continue to engage an armed person if they think the person doesn't have enough bullets.

I have looked for any such case to confirm the latter and have not been able to find one.

Its always the same "Old lady pulls the trigger, everybody runs" as far as I can find.
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Re: Gun Control

Postby DSenette » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:22 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
DSenette wrote:if you've got 5 rounds and they've got 6 guys you're pretty screwed. when you're talking about self defense, the most rounds that you can reasonably carry is the right number of rounds. even a loss of one round is something that should be considered when talking about home defense

IF as a woman you are unwilling to defend your home adequately because you might shoot a nick nack, then you should not be responsible for defense of your home.


Here is my challenge.
Find any real life case (crime not war) where having fewer bullets/magazine capacity than criminals didn't solve the problem.

I.E. I believe that firing a single shot will cause any number of bad guys to leave. And in many cases just brandishing a firearm will cause all potential threats to retreat.

DSenette's argument is that criminals will continue to engage an armed person if they think the person doesn't have enough bullets.

I have looked for any such case to confirm the latter and have not been able to find one.

Its always the same "Old lady pulls the trigger, everybody runs" as far as I can find.

the argument isn't "criminals will engage if they think you don't have enough bullets", it's "if the son of a bitch keeps coming at me after I've fired 5...I'd really like to have a 6th or more". all the anecdotal evidence in the world that some criminals will skedaddle at the sight of a gun, or after hearing a warning shot, or after racking a slide won't do you shit that time that they don't.

having a gun for personal protection is about having the most reasonable chance at having an advantage over your assailant...having less bullets than you can carry (reasonably) puts you at a disadvantage...period. relying on scare tactics has gotten more than enough people killed (i.e. brandishing an unloaded pistol, or a BB gun that looks really real) to consider it a SHITTY defense tactic
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Re: Gun Control

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Aug 29, 2014 6:52 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:
DSenette wrote:if you've got 5 rounds and they've got 6 guys you're pretty screwed. when you're talking about self defense, the most rounds that you can reasonably carry is the right number of rounds. even a loss of one round is something that should be considered when talking about home defense

IF as a woman you are unwilling to defend your home adequately because you might shoot a nick nack, then you should not be responsible for defense of your home.


Here is my challenge.
Find any real life case (crime not war) where having fewer bullets/magazine capacity than criminals didn't solve the problem.

I.E. I believe that firing a single shot will cause any number of bad guys to leave. And in many cases just brandishing a firearm will cause all potential threats to retreat.

DSenette's argument is that criminals will continue to engage an armed person if they think the person doesn't have enough bullets.

I have looked for any such case to confirm the latter and have not been able to find one.

Its always the same "Old lady pulls the trigger, everybody runs" as far as I can find.


You want me to find one case where a shot fired did not cause everyone to run? Uh, that's easy. Yes, the deterrent factor exists, and it is large, but it is not universal. It will not work in EVERY circumstance. Nothing does.

For this, I like using the NYPD stats, because they are publicly reported, not behind a paywall, avoid many selection biases, have a decent sample size unlike smaller towns, and so forth. You see a fairly smooth curve of incidents. 1 is the most common number of shots fired, with progressively fewer incidents where larger numbers of shots were fired. 6 rounds is enough to cover 69% of incidents. The other 31% isn't trivial, of course...it isn't crazy to consider that an event may fall into that category, and it's definitely clear that a single round is not always adequate.

You will note that only a single event took more than 30 rounds, so for practical planning purposes, that seems to cover all events with a reasonable chance of occuring. How many rounds you choose to have available is, of course, up to you, and no doubt there are other tradeoffs like expense of firearm and so forth, but it seems silly to deny that any tradeoff exists at the single round level.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Gnomish8 » Fri Aug 29, 2014 7:41 pm UTC

Ixtellor wrote:DSenette's argument is that criminals will continue to engage an armed person if they think the person doesn't have enough bullets.


There's more to it than that. Believe it or not, shockingly, it often takes more than 1 round to "drop" someone. It's an ongoing debate between law enforcement even. Do I use the 9mm, with its larger magazine size and lower recoil (meaning easier aiming/accuracy), the .40, which, although a larger caliber, is usually just a rechambered 9mm leading to more recoil, but has a magazine size between a 9mm and a .45, or, do I use the .45 with a smaller magazine, but better stopping power?

It also depends on where you hit someone. In a stressful situation, sure, I'm going to be aiming for center mass, but if I graze their shoulder, I want to have enough ammo to try again.

Limiting ammunition isn't really a solution to our problems. Limiting unlawful access to lawfully owned firearms is.

According to the 2009 Uniform Crime Report:
We do have a handle on the source of guns recovered from persons arrested and accused of a crime.
84 percent of those guns were stolen in a burglary; including 4 percent stolen from a relative or a friend.
6 percent of those guns were confiscated and resold by a “law enforcement officer.”
2 percent of those guns were stolen from the police or the military.
2 percent of those guns were stolen from a parcel or delivery service.

That leaves just six percent of guns taken from arrestees that could properly be considered possible “crime guns” that could also have been legally purchased.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Soteria » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:17 am UTC

I know this part of the discussion ended a few days ago, but...

I think it's really weird that, in America, people imagine a revolutionary scenario in which we have to fight the US military. Being prior military myself, I find it really hard to imagine a bunch of marines or soldiers agreeing to go door to door to confiscate weapons or impose martial law. The police, I'm less sure about, especially after Ferguson. But I don't think the argument "But the military has advanced aircraft and tanks so we would never have a chance in a revolutions" flies.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby addams » Sat Aug 30, 2014 6:40 am UTC

Soteria wrote:I know this part of the discussion ended a few days ago, but...

I think it's really weird that, in America, people imagine a revolutionary scenario in which we have to fight the US military. Being prior military myself, I find it really hard to imagine a bunch of marines or soldiers agreeing to go door to door to confiscate weapons or impose martial law. The police, I'm less sure about, especially after Ferguson. But I don't think the argument "But the military has advanced aircraft and tanks so we would never have a chance in a revolutions" flies.

I think I understand your point.

"The men and women in Uniform will feel a sense of Loyalty to The People.
The men and women in Uniform will not harm nor distress Americans."


Is that it?
If so, I disagree with you.

Still.
I love that you think that way.

It is a beautiful thing when the people in Uniform stand With the people.
It happened in Spain, during the last few years.
The Mexican Milatary got famous for standing stoically and getting flowers from little Indian girls.

It has happened. Like baking bread. It happens under Set conditions.

For the men and women in Uniform to stand With one another is more common.
It is more common in human history and the US is set up in a Classic Style.

About having a Revolution;
ummm. Do you want a Revolution?
Do you think the US is intellectually prepared?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Tyndmyr » Sat Aug 30, 2014 2:39 pm UTC

Soteria wrote:I know this part of the discussion ended a few days ago, but...

I think it's really weird that, in America, people imagine a revolutionary scenario in which we have to fight the US military. Being prior military myself, I find it really hard to imagine a bunch of marines or soldiers agreeing to go door to door to confiscate weapons or impose martial law. The police, I'm less sure about, especially after Ferguson. But I don't think the argument "But the military has advanced aircraft and tanks so we would never have a chance in a revolutions" flies.


It would require significant social changes, no doubt. I suspect that were any such order given today, it'd be incredibly controversial, and implementation would be spotty at best. However, national guard and police HAVE done weapon confiscation post-disaster, as seen in Katrina, when a general confiscation order was issued and carried out, sometimes with excessive force. No warrants were issued. This became something of a legal issue, of course, but it indicates it's not THAT hard to end up in a situation where it can happen. One disaster happens, and people get panicky and overreact to everything.

I mean, prior to 9-11, did anyone really think we'd need the TSA, to invade afghanistan, and to invade Iraq again?

Hell, in my state, MD, they keep puttin' together bills to form a confiscation system. They don't have such a system yet, but they keep trying.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby addams » Sun Aug 31, 2014 1:09 am UTC

Confiscation of Guns?
What for?

I swear, that is so stupid.

Don't take shit away from people.
Let them hold on to it as tight as they need to.

I think easing up on the Fear a little might be a good idea.
When people live Peacefully, they don't need so many guns.

People in the US Need Guns.
More for Psychological Protection than real Physical Protection.

The Psychological Protection works both on the person carrying the gun and on the mind's of Others.

It is a Fact I know from Experience.
People that will Fuck with an unarmed person will not Fuck with an armed one.

If everyone thinks everyone else is armed,
Our Manners Improve!
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Gun Control

Postby Mokele » Sun Aug 31, 2014 11:54 am UTC

addams wrote:It is a Fact I know from Experience.
People that will Fuck with an unarmed person will not Fuck with an armed one.

If everyone thinks everyone else is armed,
Our Manners Improve!


That's not manners, that's fear.

That's fear that I might get shot for yelling at someone for cutting me off in traffic. Or objecting to someone cutting in line. Or telling someone who's aggressively hitting on my wife to shove off. Or that I might be shot without warning by an off-duty cop for sending a few discreet texts during the never-ending movie previews.

An armed society is not a "polite" one; it's one where everyone is so terrified of each other that they can't voice legitimate grievances (however politely) without fearing for their lives.

Sure, most gun owners won't fly off the handle and shoot people over minor crap, but some definitely do (see link), which makes any sort of objection or confrontation, ironically, a game a Russian Roulette.

People bemoan a society where bystanders refuse to get involved and stop bad crap from happening right in front of them, but this "well-armed society" is the fastest way to make sure bystanders never intervene ever again.
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