Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

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ObsessoMom
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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby ObsessoMom » Tue Apr 28, 2015 1:50 am UTC

I'm female. As a kid, I hated dolls and pink stuff and anything stereotypically girly. I always wanted to play with the gender-neutral stuff, like building toys and toy trucks that actually did fun stuff instead of just looking cute. My older sisters were much girlier than I was, so maybe resentment over my having to wear their girly hand-me-downs and play with their beat-up girly toys made the less girly stuff more appealing to me than it otherwise would have been. I don't think so, though.

When I grew up, I assumed that my daughters would be like me. I was wrong. They used their gender-neutral building sets to build shopping carts and baby carriages. They incessantly organized weddings for their stuffed animals and even their TOY TRAIN ENGINES. Go figure. Now they're teens who love fashion and make-up--not in an obnoxious, vain way, just in an "I'm happy with how I look and want to express my own personal style" kind of way.

Societal influence? Genetic programming? Heck if I know. Maybe they're pushing back against my lack of girliness, just as I pushed back against my mom's overt girliness. But my kids are happy with who they are, and I'm happy with who I am, and we have zero friction over our differences, so it's all good.

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krogoth
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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby krogoth » Tue May 05, 2015 2:46 am UTC

I wonder when thinking about this, "what's in a name?" I was born given one name and asked for change it when I was 12 by my mother, when my father came back he never accepted my name change, though it for a while annoyed me "That's not my name!" sort of way, that's who I was not who I am, I feel like maybe I naturally associated some personality traits with each name? However, either way, now I'm used to him calling me the old name and it doesn't bother me.

It makes me think of how the op was talking, there is a difference between the way you want to be treated, and the way you know you'll be treated, depending on a given situation, and how these things are important to oneself, most of the issues appear to be resolved by changing how others see you, rather than how you see yourself. As with the looking in a mirror metaphor, I see me, but the me I see isn't the same as the me other people see, and I want them to see that me that I see. I'm not sure how clear that is. Why the name my father called me bothered me, why gender titles bother people. This ties into gender neutral pronouns I suppose.
R3sistance - I don't care at all for the ignorance spreading done by many and to the best of my abilities I try to correct this as much as I can, but I know and understand that even I can not be completely honest, truthful and factual all of the time.

Derek
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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Derek » Tue May 05, 2015 4:04 am UTC

That's interesting, do you know why you wanted to change your name? Was the new or old name unusual? Did you have bad associations with your old name?

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krogoth
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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby krogoth » Tue May 05, 2015 4:24 am UTC

Family issues, my mother was told to change it(at my age of about 12), as she changed hers, to help hide from my father. I never had any issues with him myself, and have since been in touch with him a bit, I'm now 27. I think it was at a sort of time I may have been unhappy with myself, and may have also used the name change to let go of that past. Though maybe I've since come to accept I'm both different and the same as then. So I'm fine being called either name, I also accept it's not what I'm called that defines me.

It's a multifaceted thing.

Edit add: the My name, I took was chosen from someone popular I knew at the time(from school), but I was changing school so I thought a name was enough to change how I would be seen. My second chosen from a phonebook. haha.
Just adding because I think it's interesting.
R3sistance - I don't care at all for the ignorance spreading done by many and to the best of my abilities I try to correct this as much as I can, but I know and understand that even I can not be completely honest, truthful and factual all of the time.

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Liri » Wed May 13, 2015 10:41 pm UTC

I wonder how many people who consider themselves transsexual would fit better under transgender. Transgender folks see the societal roles that men and women roughly fall into and want to be in the other one than that "designated" by their phenotype (right-ish?), while transsexuals feel(?)/know(?) that their external sexual phenotype is the incorrect one - so are there people who see the opposite biological sex and want to be that, but just because they prefer the social roles that that sex typically fills? I wish that it was possible to feel (temporarily) what a transsexual feels to know that they are really the opposite sex. There are more and more pieces of evidence pointing to biological explanations, which is great.

If someone who claims to be transsexual doesn't test positive for any of the genetic or brain-structure markers, is it ethical to perform sex-reassignment surgery/provide hormone therapy?

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Copper Bezel » Fri May 15, 2015 12:05 pm UTC

At best, if there's any hard distinction between gender and sex in the sense used here, it's that one is a network of social associations for the other. It's like distinguishing between "reflects light at 700 nm" and "is red."

Being masculine or feminine is a separate thing entirely. You can be a trans woman and a tomboy. No one will revoke your license.

Liri wrote:is it ethical to perform [procedure]?

Quick checklist:
    1. Is the subject choosing to undergo the procedure, and without coercion? Y/N

Oh, dear, that turned out to be a shorter list than I thought. Ah well.
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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Derek » Fri May 15, 2015 11:28 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:
Liri wrote:is it ethical to perform [procedure]?

Quick checklist:
    1. Is the subject choosing to undergo the procedure, and without coercion? Y/N

Oh, dear, that turned out to be a shorter list than I thought. Ah well.

So would you support giving amputations to people with Body integrity identity disorder? "A psychological disorder wherein sufferers feel they would be happier living as an amputee."

Similarly, would your criteria for euthanasia be to simply administer it anyone who (voluntarily, under no coercion) requests it?

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby krogoth » Sat May 16, 2015 12:04 am UTC

,ore the point, who says their brains are "normal"
R3sistance - I don't care at all for the ignorance spreading done by many and to the best of my abilities I try to correct this as much as I can, but I know and understand that even I can not be completely honest, truthful and factual all of the time.

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat May 16, 2015 8:54 am UTC

Whose brains? I don't understand the question. I don't think anyone accused anyone of being normal. I most certainly did not.

Derek wrote:So would you support giving amputations to people with Body integrity identity disorder? "A psychological disorder wherein sufferers feel they would be happier living as an amputee."

Do you expect a rush on voluntary amputations? Is it going to become a fad? If there's a better way to treat the condition, I don't see any ethical argument against someone saying so. I would imagine that cosmetic surgeons specializing in amputation and comfortable with the practice are also somewhat hard to come by, which could function as its own disincentive effect.

Liri's question was not "is it advisable," but "is it ethical," and wasn't contingent on any amount of counseling or delay, only on a hypothetical "marker" of some kind to be discovered by testing. HRT and SRS are also quite minor procedures by comparison. Of course it's not advisable to kill someone if they just ask you to on the street. Is there an ethical prohibition, though...? I'm not honestly sure. There are certainly legal prohibitions, and depending on the jurisdiction in question, often well beyond the point at which I think it becomes unethical not to intervene.

The question of whether it's ethical to provide HRT or SRS is, to me, identical to any cosmetic surgery case. The idea that someone believes themselves to discover the "real" source of gender has zero bearing. It's like asking if it's "ethical" to perform breast implants on a woman whose chest is clearly already sufficient in the surgeon's estimation. It's also analogous to asking whether it is ethical not to perform HRT or SRS if the case is reversed: someone has the "wrong" gender "marker," but decides not to transition.

So I'm sorry if my response seemed flip, but it's kinda an absurd question to me.
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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby morriswalters » Sat May 16, 2015 1:12 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:The question of whether it's ethical to provide HRT or SRS is, to me, identical to any cosmetic surgery case.
I disagree. Cosmetic surgery has very little social cost. I want a new nose is quantitatively different proposition as compared against HRT or SRS. My support for transgender issues derives from that difference.

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat May 16, 2015 9:49 pm UTC

morriswalters wrote:I disagree. Cosmetic surgery has very little social cost.

In the main, I tend to think of cosmetic surgery at large as nothing but cost to society, outside of cases like deformities or trans issues. In any case, this is not at all a self-evident statement. The implication that HRT or SRS has "more than little" social cost is also non-obvious. Do you have an argument to go with that teaser trailer?
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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby morriswalters » Sat May 16, 2015 10:29 pm UTC

We define costs in different ways. I'm not worried about the cost of the procedures. II think elective cosmetic surgery is a waste, but whatever. However I don't consider SRS cosmetic or elective in the common sense. Your fixing a problem that seems to cause a lot of pain. I assume that position without having definite evidence. And unless or until I can know definitively one way or the other I maintain that stance. The social cost of doing something about trans issues seems to be fairly high. The social cost is rewriting the paradigms that involve how we view gender and how that view of gender is written into law. And it will be worth the cost as long it isn't a vanity issue. Does that make any sense?

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Copper Bezel » Sat May 16, 2015 10:40 pm UTC

Yes ... but it's pretty clear that we simply want different things. Cosmetic surgery is used to reinforce existing standards of beauty that are fairly exclusive and fairly insipid to my taste. Yes, it's work being done, and that has a cost in dollars, but I don't see that as its primary cost to society. The big cost to me is the reinforcement of norms.

Trans issues run the other way. I think it's better for individuals to have to navigate all of that than to not have to.
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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby morriswalters » Sat May 16, 2015 11:26 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:Trans issues run the other way. I think it's better for individuals to have to navigate all of that than to not have to.
I'm uncertain if I understand the point you're making.

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun May 17, 2015 2:55 am UTC

I'm talking about this bit.

morriswalters wrote:The social cost is rewriting the paradigms that involve how we view gender and how that view of gender is written into law.

It is arguable to me that it's sensible to refer to this as a "cost."
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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby morriswalters » Sun May 17, 2015 12:05 pm UTC

I'm probably old fashioned, but I look at this like maintaining a home. I pay certain cost to maintain my home, to prevent entropy from causing it to collapse around my ears. I see this the same way. Making society more inclusive requires work. It's work that needs to happen, but it is work none the less. I see that work as a cost. But as long as it gets done I have no real concerns about what it is called.

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Copper Bezel » Sun May 17, 2015 6:04 pm UTC

I'm not exactly freshly minted myself, but I just don't see it that way. Self-examination is a good in itself. We all make simplified maps of the world to follow in life, but we are not entitled to our simplifications. Trans people and cis people and non-binary and whatever else all just want to feel normal and themselves and be respected, but I think it's a positive good that they have to interact with one another to do it. That isn't why I support transfolk - the real reason probably has a lot more to do with a few of my friends and my younger sister being trans. But the social conventions that aren't flexible and agile enough to deal with them shouldn't exist in the first place.
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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby morriswalters » Sun May 17, 2015 9:27 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:But the social conventions that aren't flexible and agile enough to deal with them shouldn't exist in the first place.
I Don't disagree with that. But it is a case of what we know now versus what we thought we knew before.

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon May 18, 2015 5:45 pm UTC

Copper Bezel wrote:I'm talking about this bit.

morriswalters wrote:The social cost is rewriting the paradigms that involve how we view gender and how that view of gender is written into law.

It is arguable to me that it's sensible to refer to this as a "cost."


Strictly speaking, change always has a cost. Not in dollars perhaps, but in effort or whatever.

For what it's worth, I do not view optional cosmetic surgery as nothing but a cost. It doesn't interest me, but...some people appreciate aesthetics of this or that, and it's little different than art. I cannot think of any argument discounting the value of cosmetic surgery that would not similarly discount the value of art. Sure, it has a cost, and if that's worth it or not will vary based on your opinion, but there's value there too.

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby krogoth » Tue May 19, 2015 12:07 am UTC

The thing is people value themselves because of their looks. If they should or not, is another question. Changing outfits, hairstyle, and things that you think make you look "good" have a positive emotional effect on people, confidence, self value, yada yada. I don't know art is really a good comparison, though managing to complete projects like art or other creations and have people value/praise it can make you feel praised via the transitive property of ownership.


morriswalters wrote:
Copper Bezel wrote:But the social conventions that aren't flexible and agile enough to deal with them shouldn't exist in the first place.
I Don't disagree with that. But it is a case of what we know now versus what we thought we knew before.

Also some times it's better to have something rather than nothing, to bridge the gap till we have something better, then we can replace it, and respect that it filled a hole for the time being (think religion)

And in this case it was very close to covering the issue, until people, and their opinions changed.
R3sistance - I don't care at all for the ignorance spreading done by many and to the best of my abilities I try to correct this as much as I can, but I know and understand that even I can not be completely honest, truthful and factual all of the time.

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Re: Self Perception of Gender and Sexuality

Postby Copper Bezel » Tue May 19, 2015 11:10 pm UTC

On cosmetic surgery, I have to admit that my comment was not ... the most objective I could have made. Cosmetic surgery is potentially a medium of expression, it's just one I don't care for in the present form.

And of course people should care about how they look.
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