Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

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Zamfir
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Zamfir » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:51 pm UTC

Frankenstein wrote:
I even coined a quote in your honor, friend (it's obviously not referring to you, you just inspired me to put that fact in words like the famous people out there):

"The primitive man fears what he can't explain, and hates what he can't understand" - Frankenstein


Ooh, that's nice. I am also inspired

"The left of the blue is angels and wallets" - Zamfir

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Thu Jan 08, 2015 8:51 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:Also, when you can't convince people that they should try to solve their issues talking and being civilized rather than just firing their guns right away, you know this world simply isn't for you.


It's situational. Neither talking nor shooting guns is a universal fix for every scenario. Obviously.

Use the right tool for the job. This principle extends to language, of course. You will have far more luck with talking if you're using words in the same fashion as the folks you are talking to. Some of your points do not appear to do so, and as a result, are borderline incomprehensible. Just claiming to be for tolerance doesn't mean your side of the argument is automatically correct, or even sensible.

Well, IMO people should use violence only as a last resource, no matter what. And even in cases where it's necessary, I'm all in for "non-lethal violence". Not even the Nazis employed violence right away in all situations.


Uh...the Nazi's are maybe not the best of examples of tolerance or non-violence.

Especially when compared to rude words on the internet.

That's right, you serial replier :P. Still there are people behind those rude words.

Zamfir wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:
I even coined a quote in your honor, friend (it's obviously not referring to you, you just inspired me to put that fact in words like the famous people out there):

"The primitive man fears what he can't explain, and hates what he can't understand" - Frankenstein


Ooh, that's nice. I am also inspired

"The left of the blue is angels and wallets" - Zamfir

*claps slowly* that's not a tear, well... I'm just cutting onions.

Today I learned that tolerance is when you see a swastika and you swear to kill whoever is responsible for that. I'm relieved. The world is such a tolerant place. I'll be right back, I'm gonna look for pink and cute ponies and rainbow unicorns in my magical garden.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Zamfir » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:10 pm UTC

High tolerance is a swastika where some arms are 30cm, and others 31cm.

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:24 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:High tolerance is a swastika where some arms are 30cm, and others 31cm.

Why my opinions are always wrong and twisted? I'm such a psycho.

IMO:
Descendant of Holocaust victim sees a swastika:

High Tolerance: ...
Medium Tolerance: Hey buddy, that's not funny, could you remove that please?
Low Tolerance: I'm gonna kill you, and your family, and your dog, you m*therf*cking scum!
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Zamfir » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:34 pm UTC

I hate it when that happens. I try to keep my holocaust survivors in a separate room, especially the low tolerance ones. And my swastikas in another. But sometimes the dog of the swastikas escapes, usually around dinner time. They keep barking at each other!

Woof, Woof

Grr

Scum! Scum!

Grrr

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Thu Jan 08, 2015 9:47 pm UTC

I *hate* when you register in a new forum to discuss something and get drowned by notable member's opinions with absolutely no flexibility. No offense, but opinions are opinions, not the law. I'm pretty sure a lot of people agree with me in this matter, but this is getting a little bit too oppressive IMO. I just expect people to actually THINK before incorporating opinions just because of the importance of whoever have that opinion.

Also, I didn't even registered to discuss serious stuff, I just registered to make my big list of physically possible movies. Opening the Serious Business subforum to take a quick look probably was the *worst idea ever*.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Zamfir » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:07 pm UTC

You're right, I was impolite.

I might be misreading your posts. For example:
IMO:
Descendant of Holocaust victim sees a swastika:

High Tolerance: ...
Medium Tolerance: Hey buddy, that's not funny, could you remove that please?
Low Tolerance: I'm gonna kill you, and your family, and your dog, you m*therf*cking scum!

I find this rather offensive, to be honest. But I might be missing your point, and then my responses are too harsh.

The way I read that posts (and your earlier posts), you worry that people are too sensitive about Nazi symbols. Even when those people have close, personal ties to the holocaust. It's as if you want to decide for those people, how they should deal with the systematic murder of their family. And you criticize them for reacting in the wrong way.

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Thu Jan 08, 2015 10:20 pm UTC

Zamfir wrote:You're right, I was impolite.

I might be misreading your posts. For example:
IMO:
Descendant of Holocaust victim sees a swastika:

High Tolerance: ...
Medium Tolerance: Hey buddy, that's not funny, could you remove that please?
Low Tolerance: I'm gonna kill you, and your family, and your dog, you m*therf*cking scum!

I find this rather offensive, to be honest. But I might be missing your point, and then my responses are too harsh.

The way I read that posts (and your earlier posts), you worry that people are too sensitive about Nazi symbols. Even when those people have close, personal ties to the holocaust. It's as if you want to decide for those people, how they should deal with the systematic murder of their family. And you criticize them for reacting in the wrong way.

Well, I accept your apologies and please accept mine too because I wasn't exactly the perfect gentleman :oops:.

The problem is, there's too much passion in here, so the discussion went off tracks. I was mostly interested on why people don't complain when they see their friends mass-murdering in video games, but they go crazy when they see a swastika. I mean, you can even reproduce the Holocaust in videogames and that's perfectly okay, as long as you don't call your people 'Nazis' and don't use swastikas. That seems quite hypocritical to me, but that discussion is kinda over.

And before you ask, yes, there are videogames like that, there's even a videogame where you exterminate an entire city by triggering a nuke. And of course that's not only completely acceptable but it's considered super cool 8-).
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:04 pm UTC

Nobody is sending anybody death threats because their historical game about Nazis shows them wearing swastikas.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Azrael » Thu Jan 08, 2015 11:49 pm UTC

Frankenstein wrote:I see intolerance increasing though.


Image


No, what you see is that a larger number of people from more diverse backgrounds have gained enough of a voice (either through additional freedoms, greatly improved tolerance for their voice or an improved communication infrastructure) that you can hear their complaints about when people are being shitty towards them.

But go ahead, long for those long lost, more tolerant days when gay people were ostracized, black Americans couldn't vote and a woman's place was in the kitchen. At least back then you weren't so thoroughly inconvenienced by having to sort out those people who are just so unjustifiably offended all the time from the rest of this endless bulk of information at your fingertips.

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby PAstrychef » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:02 am UTC

Frankenstein wrote:. I was mostly interested on why people don't complain when they see their friends mass-murdering in video games, but they go crazy when they see a swastika. I mean, you can even reproduce the Holocaust in videogames and that's perfectly okay, as long as you don't call your people 'Nazis' and don't use swastikas. That seems quite hypocritical to me, but that discussion is kinda over.

And before you ask, yes, there are videogames like that, there's even a videogame where you exterminate an entire city by triggering a nuke. And of course that's not only completely acceptable but it's considered super cool 8-).


Actually, there are lots of complaints about this kind of game construction.
As for the swastika in particular, at this point in time there are still people who are directly connected to the Holocaust who find reminders of it being used as entertainment to be extremely troubling. I suspect that there are persons of Japanese background who find that nuking a city as entertainment is extremely troubling as well.
In some of your earlier posts you say that you use the word "nazi" as a kind of casual shorthand for "rather nasty". That shows both a lack of understanding about the historical nazis and a real lack of empathy for their victims.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby gmalivuk » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:19 am UTC

Frankenstein wrote:I think the most important fact that makes the swastika so 'offensive' today is that it's still being used by antisemitic and white supremacy jerks.
I don't quite get how you yourself are the one who brought this up and yet you're still apparently unclear about why it bothers people?

In addition to the fact that people are still around with direct Holocaust connections (since after all Soviet Gulag survivors are also still around), violent antisemitism continues to this day and is still frequently accompanied by the swastika. So, like, doesn't that pretty much answer your question in its entirety?
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:27 am UTC

Azrael wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:I see intolerance increasing though.


No, what you see is that a larger number of people from more diverse backgrounds have gained enough of a voice (either through additional freedoms, greatly improved tolerance for their voice or an improved communication infrastructure) that you can hear their complaints about when people are being shitty towards them.

But go ahead, long for those long lost, more tolerant days when gay people were ostracized, black Americans couldn't vote and a woman's place was in the kitchen. At least back then you weren't so thoroughly inconvenienced by having to sort out those people who are just so unjustifiably offended all the time from the rest of this endless bulk of information at your fingertips.

I see intolerance decreasing. :lol:

There's still a pretty significant culture of intolerance though, I mean, have you ever heard a rap radio? Besides the fact that I don't like the melody, at least from the rap lyrics I've heard, a lot of them are about intolerance.

Also, I don't know how that compares to gay/woman's rights... if someone is against the gay rights, I don't think it's acceptable kill them also. I never knew we lived in a world where the primitive reaction of 'killing what hurts/bores me' were acceptable. I hope you aren't telling me that I'm expected as a citizen to threat a person on the streets with a t-shirt against gay marriage?

This is somewhat off topic though.

Just to let you know, I agreed with the points regarding the swastika. If it's not socially acceptable, people should respect that. However, when someone 'exposes' a swastika, before taking any violent action, the person should at lease be notified, at least a "drop the swastika or you will be shot" is expected. Still I would prefer if a symbol didn't have that much meaning.

Also, I think this was the wrong time to post this because it seems everyone is enraged because of the terrorism in France, people should not let facts like that affect the way they think though.

And I don't know if you read the entire thread, but the conversations reached almost a point where people were supporting the killing of the guy who posted the picture.

PAstrychef wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:. I was mostly interested on why people don't complain when they see their friends mass-murdering in video games, but they go crazy when they see a swastika. I mean, you can even reproduce the Holocaust in videogames and that's perfectly okay, as long as you don't call your people 'Nazis' and don't use swastikas. That seems quite hypocritical to me, but that discussion is kinda over.

And before you ask, yes, there are videogames like that, there's even a videogame where you exterminate an entire city by triggering a nuke. And of course that's not only completely acceptable but it's considered super cool 8-).


Actually, there are lots of complaints about this kind of game construction.
As for the swastika in particular, at this point in time there are still people who are directly connected to the Holocaust who find reminders of it being used as entertainment to be extremely troubling. I suspect that there are persons of Japanese background who find that nuking a city as entertainment is extremely troubling as well.
In some of your earlier posts you say that you use the word "nazi" as a kind of casual shorthand for "rather nasty". That shows both a lack of understanding about the historical nazis and a real lack of empathy for their victims.

Oh, are there? Well... I never see people reacting about that. Perhaps I'm just uninformed...

Agree about the swastika. Dunno about the Japaneses.

In fact I don't use the word Nazi that often, and I don't even remember using it 'offline' (surely I can't use it near grandpa, at risk of being hit with a book), but when I'm chatting online I do use it, in text messages. I don't see the problem in that though.
gmalivuk wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:I think the most important fact that makes the swastika so 'offensive' today is that it's still being used by antisemitic and white supremacy jerks.
I don't quite get how you yourself are the one who brought this up and yet you're still apparently unclear about why it bothers people?

In addition to the fact that people are still around with direct Holocaust connections (since after all Soviet Gulag survivors are also still around), violent antisemitism continues to this day and is still frequently accompanied by the swastika. So, like, doesn't that pretty much answer your question in its entirety?

Yes, that pretty much answers it, what bother me though is the fact that the people is what give the swastika that disproportional importance. It's a 'forbidden' symbol in society, and that's why it's so offensive. That won't change quickly though, so there's no option other than living with that fact. :P
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Azrael » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:30 am UTC

Frankenstein wrote:Dunno about the Japs.

Where are you from?

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:32 am UTC

Azrael wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:Dunno about the Japs.

Where are you from?

I've never seen any Japanese offended by the image of an explosion or something like that. If I remember correctly a lot of Japanese TV shows are full of explosions and mushroom clouds and stuff like that, so that info that the Japaneses are offended by that kind of stuff is completely new to me.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Azrael » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:33 am UTC

Answer the question please.

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:49 am UTC

Azrael wrote:Answer the question please.

Oh yeah, I forgot that I have different rights here based on my nationality. I have dual-citizenship and I'm not proud of either :oops: :cry:. Is that really necessary? If I said France would I be treated with more politeness? And would I be automatically wrong if I were from Islamic countries?

If you could tell me how that's relevant, then I'd promptly answer, however, judging by the hostility here I'd say you just want another reason to prove I'm wrong.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Azrael » Fri Jan 09, 2015 12:58 am UTC

I'm trying to determine if English was your native language, and if so whether you come from a region where you would have been aware of the connotations of using the word 'Jap'. At which point a determination could be made if you were making a mistake, or if you used it much the same way you casually toss about 'nazi'.

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:04 am UTC

Azrael wrote:I'm trying to determine if English was your native language, and if you came from a region where you would have been aware of the connotations of using the word Jap. At which point a determination could be made if you were making a mistake, or if you used it much the same way you toss about 'nazi'.

Ok, sorry, I've been raised mostly in Italy (in terms of language), but I never knew that because all my American friends say "Jap" to refer to the Japanese and a lot of people I know from other romance-languages-speaking countries use the word "Japa" which I'm sure is totally non-offensive. I've googled that and you're right though, I'm gonna edit that post.

EDIT:
Well... It ended up my American friends are jerks... and they're pretty much the reason why I use the word "Nazi" also, because I hear them using that word colloquially (even insensible jokes, etc.). I never used the word "Nazi" not to refer to the actual Nazis in any other languages (and thanks to my mother language, it was a breeze to learn all romance languages out there, but I never use nor hear people using that word).

So, yeah, most likely I was being a dick without noticing it... I still don't think it's reasonable to kill the swastika guy though.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Azrael » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:38 am UTC

Frankenstein wrote:I still don't think it's reasonable to kill the swastika guy though.

Neither do we.

Nor, honestly, do I believe that the people that said it actually think so either. People say really stupid shit that they don't mean all the time. They shouldn't. That they don't really mean it doesn't make their actions justifiable. But ... they do.

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:49 am UTC

Azrael wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:I still don't think it's reasonable to kill the swastika guy though.

Neither do we.

Nor, honestly, do I believe that the people that said it actually think so either. People say really stupid shit that they don't mean all the time. They shouldn't. That they don't really mean it doesn't make their actions justifiable. But ... they do.

The discussion some pages back was quite heated up... and yeah, I understand people have 'extra balls' on the internet.

Regarding the word "Nazi", I'm not going to use it any longer, however, I googled whether it's acceptable to use that word and it seems most people don't really care. There's even an article from NY Times about that with opinions from the editors and it is unanimous that the word is not that offensive. Again, I'm not going to use it any longer, nor "Japs", "Brits", etc. I truly didn't know what I was saying. Sorry for that guys.

I blame my American friends :P.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Azrael » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:00 am UTC

I think Brits is fine, actually. I mean, not super complimentary. But no worse than Yankees.

Anyone relevant care to comment?

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:21 am UTC

Frankenstein wrote:The discussion some pages back was quite heated up... and yeah, I understand people have 'extra balls' on the internet.
It was? I felt it's maintained the same level of Wat-ness pretty much all the way through. Now there are more people pointing it out to you.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Fri Jan 09, 2015 3:41 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:The discussion some pages back was quite heated up... and yeah, I understand people have 'extra balls' on the internet.
It was? I felt it's maintained the same level of Wat-ness pretty much all the way through. Now there are more people pointing it out to you.

Nope, people mixed up 'videogames' and 'real-life' on the previous page and overall it was a real mess. It seems things are more civilized now, thanks to the professional moderation :P. Let's continue :roll:.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 09, 2015 1:51 pm UTC

Azrael wrote:I think Brits is fine, actually. I mean, not super complimentary. But no worse than Yankees.

Anyone relevant care to comment?
In the south, calling someone Yankee might be mildly offensive, depending on the context. I'd say it runs the gamut from 'Oh you silly goose' to 'You're not from here and you want to leave this place now'.

North of the Mason-Dixon line, calling someone a Yankee would be akin to inviting them to ye olde saloon for a refreshing sasparilla.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Fri Jan 09, 2015 2:04 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Azrael wrote:I think Brits is fine, actually. I mean, not super complimentary. But no worse than Yankees.

Anyone relevant care to comment?
In the south, calling someone Yankee might be mildly offensive, depending on the context. I'd say it runs the gamut from 'Oh you silly goose' to 'You're not from here and you want to leave this place now'.

North of the Mason-Dixon line, calling someone a Yankee would be akin to inviting them to ye olde saloon for a refreshing sasparilla.

Interesting... and what about southerners overseas? I never called anyone "Yankee" but I see people calling the Americans like that quite often. Do they take offense from that?
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Tyndmyr » Fri Jan 09, 2015 7:47 pm UTC

Frankenstein wrote:I *hate* when you register in a new forum to discuss something and get drowned by notable member's opinions with absolutely no flexibility. No offense, but opinions are opinions, not the law. I'm pretty sure a lot of people agree with me in this matter, but this is getting a little bit too oppressive IMO. I just expect people to actually THINK before incorporating opinions just because of the importance of whoever have that opinion.

Also, I didn't even registered to discuss serious stuff, I just registered to make my big list of physically possible movies. Opening the Serious Business subforum to take a quick look probably was the *worst idea ever*.


This forum says "serious business", why are you complaining about stuff here being serious?

Frankenstein wrote:The problem is, there's too much passion in here, so the discussion went off tracks. I was mostly interested on why people don't complain when they see their friends mass-murdering in video games, but they go crazy when they see a swastika. I mean, you can even reproduce the Holocaust in videogames and that's perfectly okay, as long as you don't call your people 'Nazis' and don't use swastikas. That seems quite hypocritical to me, but that discussion is kinda over.


They don't go crazy. They might make words, but not particularly crazy ones, and this doesn't generally result in unjustified violence. A ton of games have used swastikas within roughly the appropriate context, and nobody really blinks. Well, the Germans and such, a bit, but there's some history there, so duh.

But if you use very strong symbols in a way that is very far from their usual meaning, then you have failed at communication. If you're using a swastika in a positive manner, it doesnt MATTER that you want your swastika to mean something else. It's like complaining that nobody finds your human-skull decor to be light and charming.

Frankenstein wrote:
Azrael wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:Dunno about the Japs.

Where are you from?

I've never seen any Japanese offended by the image of an explosion or something like that. If I remember correctly a lot of Japanese TV shows are full of explosions and mushroom clouds and stuff like that, so that info that the Japaneses are offended by that kind of stuff is completely new to me.


It's not just "an explosion", it's nukes in particular. They have a certain cultural weight in Japan due to history. That doesn't mean that nukes are never discussed in Japan or anything like that...but it does mean that context is important.

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Fri Jan 09, 2015 8:36 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:I *hate* when you register in a new forum to discuss something and get drowned by notable member's opinions with absolutely no flexibility. No offense, but opinions are opinions, not the law. I'm pretty sure a lot of people agree with me in this matter, but this is getting a little bit too oppressive IMO. I just expect people to actually THINK before incorporating opinions just because of the importance of whoever have that opinion.

Also, I didn't even registered to discuss serious stuff, I just registered to make my big list of physically possible movies. Opening the Serious Business subforum to take a quick look probably was the *worst idea ever*.


This forum says "serious business", why are you complaining about stuff here being serious?

I don't understand. I don't think I'm the one who's wrong here, at least according to the forum rules. If I were to follow them strictly I should report lots of posts that are clearly not serious, do you want me to quote them?
Frankenstein wrote:The problem is, there's too much passion in here, so the discussion went off tracks. I was mostly interested on why people don't complain when they see their friends mass-murdering in video games, but they go crazy when they see a swastika. I mean, you can even reproduce the Holocaust in videogames and that's perfectly okay, as long as you don't call your people 'Nazis' and don't use swastikas. That seems quite hypocritical to me, but that discussion is kinda over.


They don't go crazy. They might make words, but not particularly crazy ones, and this doesn't generally result in unjustified violence. A ton of games have used swastikas within roughly the appropriate context, and nobody really blinks. Well, the Germans and such, a bit, but there's some history there, so duh.

But if you use very strong symbols in a way that is very far from their usual meaning, then you have failed at communication. If you're using a swastika in a positive manner, it doesnt MATTER that you want your swastika to mean something else. It's like complaining that nobody finds your human-skull decor to be light and charming.

I never said anything about using the swastika in a positive manner.
Frankenstein wrote:
Azrael wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:Dunno about the Japs.

Where are you from?

I've never seen any Japanese offended by the image of an explosion or something like that. If I remember correctly a lot of Japanese TV shows are full of explosions and mushroom clouds and stuff like that, so that info that the Japaneses are offended by that kind of stuff is completely new to me.


It's not just "an explosion", it's nukes in particular. They have a certain cultural weight in Japan due to history. That doesn't mean that nukes are never discussed in Japan or anything like that...but it does mean that context is important.

That's obvious, I was just saying there's a Japanese band (if memory serves) that uses a mushroom cloud as logo, so it is not comparable with a swastika. Of course if there's a caption on that image that reads 'you deserved it' they will be offended. But they will be offended because it is meant to offend.



I don't understand why everyone is attacking me though. There are exceptions, but I see extremism, arrogance and people not stepping back a single nanometer to even LISTEN different opinions. This is NOT a discussion, this is a conflict. You have your POV, it's a 'constant', and you simply 'fire' your opinions at others.

I'm trying to be flexible, but it's kinda impossible to maintain a constructive conversation. Opinions here are made up and they're as flexible as tin-barium titanate composite.

I hope that in some hundreds of years someone will be reading the web archive of this thread and will see how things were still narrow-minded and intransigent in 2015. To that person I leave my virtual *high-five* from the past :D, a time when people were concerned about the sounds coming out of your mouth and not your intentions.
Also, the high-five is in decadence and atm the 'brofist' is more common among the younger.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 09, 2015 9:00 pm UTC

Frankenstein wrote:I don't understand. I don't think I'm the one who's wrong here, at least according to the forum rules. If I were to follow them strictly I should report lots of posts that are clearly not serious, do you want me to quote them?
Most of the 'not serious' ridicule you have been the recipient of in this thread is because of what you're saying and how flippantly you're saying it.

You've also done a lot of editing of your posts after they've been responded to, which is making things more confusing.

Frankenstein wrote:I never said anything about using the swastika in a positive manner.
You have frequently written that you don't want the swastika to be a symbol with negative connotations, that people who are upset by it's inappropriate use to 'get over it'. I wouldn't say that you think the swastika should be used in a positive manner, but you are doing a lot of telling people how they should respond to something, including but not limited to, telling them that a negative response to swastika's is inappropriate.

Frankenstein wrote:That's obvious, I was just saying there's a Japanese band (if memory serves) that uses a mushroom cloud as logo, so it is not comparable with a swastika. Of course if there's a caption on that image that reads 'you deserved it' they will be offended. But they will be offended because it is meant to offend.
Does your whole argument hinge on the fact that you know Jews who use the word Nazi flippantly, or Japenese people who use atom bomb explosions flippantly?

You understand this is a ludicrious support for what you're saying right? It's like me saying "Nono, I'm white, but my black friend said I can use the word nigger, so, it's totally cool for me to do so!" Again - you do not get to decide what groups of people find offensive.

Frankenstein wrote:I'm trying to be flexible, but it's kinda impossible to maintain a constructive conversation. Opinions here are made up and they're as flexible as tin-barium titanate composite.
Alternatively you could read what people are saying to you and have fun with some good 'ol introspection. Maybe we're jerks! Maybe you're a jerk! How will you ever decide if you don't take a pause from this 'help help I'm being oppressed!' shtick?
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Fri Jan 09, 2015 11:58 pm UTC

I'm sorry, but you're lying Izawwlgood, first because you can see if and when the posts were edited, second because when I edit my posts it's either to correct grammar/spelling errors, or when I add content I use the "EDIT" keyword. And if there's any way to get the editing history of the posts, the moderators/admin can confirm that.

I just said that when you forbid the swastika, basically you're providing the 'haters' a symbol for them to use, and also empowering that symbol. I don't see how having that opinion can be 'offensive' to someone, and absolutely no one said a single constructive word about that, no one even considered that opinion, and I don't think it's so ridiculous.

Pretty much everything else what you said is not true. You guys are picturing someone that has absolutely nothing to do with me, and can't see any reason for that other than unfunded prejudice.
Also, I would like to know when I began to treat this subject not seriously.

You also have absolutely no idea on my relations with Jews (and Israeli) and I must say, I'm not going to tell you the history of my family, but if you ever knew a little bit of the history of my ancestors, specially my grandfather and his mother during the hard times, you would know that you just committed a big injustice by implying that I have some kind of 'bias' against the Jews.

You can offend me at will though, because I know that when the only thing against me are offenses and attacks (physical or verbal, it doesn't matter), it's when I can be sure I'm on the side of the good guys.

Also, I'm not into this discussion any longer. I'm not welcome here so I'm leaving.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby elasto » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:43 am UTC

Frankenstein wrote:I just said that when you forbid the swastika, basically you're providing the 'haters' a symbol for them to use, and also empowering that symbol. I don't see how having that opinion can be 'offensive' to someone, and absolutely no one said a single constructive word about that, no one even considered that opinion, and I don't think it's so ridiculous.

Who here has said forbidding the swastika is a good idea? You're constructing a strawman and using it to feel victimized. You realize that people being offended by something does not equal it being forbidden, censored or other hyperbole, right?

In the United States at least, you are free to use a swastika (or any other hate symbol) in any context you like - serious or flippant. Go knock yourself out and create a game filled with them. Many firms deliberately court controversy to garner free blog-inches (no such thing as bad publicity and all that). However, you do not have the right to have people not be offended by your choice, and nor do you have the right to silence their criticism of you.

Freedom of speech is a two-way street and you seem to want to have your cake and eat it: To be free to express yourself but for others not to be allowed to express themselves in return.

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:14 am UTC

Azrael wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:Dunno about the Japs.

Where are you from?

Do go back to the post that's quoted from. I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt Azrael shortened that to a somewhat derogatory short hand because he was trying to be glib. This, in case you're lost, is being brought up because you claimed you were only correcting your grammar or 'adding content'.

Every other post from you is a whine that you're being victimized. You're welcome here, but for someone arguing for freedom of expression while simultaneously telling others how they should respond to various things, you seem to be awfully bad at handling being on the other side of that.

Frankenstein wrote:You also have absolutely no idea on my relations with Jews (and Israeli) and I must say, I'm not going to tell you the history of my family, but if you ever knew a little bit of the history of my ancestors, specially my grandfather and his mother during the hard times, you would know that you just committed a big injustice by implying that I have some kind of 'bias' against the Jews.
I don't understand what you think is going on here. I never implied you have a bias against Jews. Please read my comment again.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Azrael » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:22 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Azrael wrote:
Frankenstein wrote:Dunno about the Japs.

Where are you from?

Do go back to the post that's quoted from. I could be wrong, but I sincerely doubt Azrael shortened that to a somewhat derogatory short hand because he was trying to be glib.

Nope, he said "Jap". He's gone back and corrected his usage after I alerted him the the issue.

Which rather adequately demonstrates your point that his editing is making the discussion difficult to track.

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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:27 am UTC

I'm leaving, I'm not going to check this thread any longer. I read all my posts two times with a critical eye and didn't see anything abnormal. Regarding the word "Jap", I see you didn't read these parts:
Frankenstein wrote: I never knew that because all my American friends say "Jap" to refer to the Japanese [...]. I've googled that and you're right though, I'm gonna edit that post.

Frankenstein wrote:I'm not going to use [...] "Japs", "Brits", etc. I truly didn't know what I was saying. Sorry for that guys.

And I'm considering that like a 'spelling error'. I mean, it didn't change the meaning of the sentence substantially. Be fair please.
Perhaps the problem the whole time is that people only read the first and some of the last posts, I don't know. I leave this thread with a clear mind though.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:49 am UTC

No, I saw the acknowledgement (it was on this very page!), and, like I was drawing attention to your edits, I also saw that you edited the original comment. Which was my point.

You had like five separate people point out the error of your position, and aside from editing out what amounts to a racial slur and saying you won't do it again, you never once considered that your position may be on the wrong side of things. But yeah, keep feeling oppressed.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:28 am UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:But yeah, keep feeling oppressed.

I could quote all the times I've been disrespected here, but I'm not wasting my time. LTS: I brought a different view of things, no one understood, lots of time wasted.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:41 am UTC

Yup. No one understood you. That is definitely what happened.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Frankenstein » Sat Jan 10, 2015 3:17 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:Yup. No one understood you. That is definitely what happened.

Why do you keep posting? I don't need your sarcasm. If you have nothing to say, please just say nothing. What I say is just my opinion. And IMO (which stands for "in my opinion") you're either "very young" or you have some serious issues.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Jan 10, 2015 4:14 pm UTC

Because this isn't your forum, I can post wherever I want. You are also, as we've explained, more than entitled your opinion, but that opinion is not protected from criticism. If you cannot see that your opinion has flaws, which were outlined by people quite clearly, and insist that we're in the wrong, maybe you need to reevaluate.

We're very far from the topic of Swastika's not being socially acceptable. To get back to it, do you understand why they aren't, and you thinking they 'shouldn't be' is irrelevant? Also, this is SB - do your best to avoid personal attacks. It's unbecoming.
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Re: Why the swastika is not socially acceptable nowadays?

Postby Azrael » Sat Jan 10, 2015 5:17 pm UTC

This little tete-a-tete needs to stop.


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