Manufactured Minorities

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CorruptUser
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Manufactured Minorities

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Nov 14, 2014 11:41 pm UTC

This is one of those quasi serious quasi joke ideas that came to me recently. Feel free to suggest if this belongs in another section.

So I was thinking about the progression of society, and how as we become more egalitarian we move in to the group to bring into mainstream society while mainstream society fights back. First we only had 'white english men', then we included the English-algonquins (the pilgrims intermarried, so...). Then we added the French, then Irish. Somewhere on the way Jews were added. We are struggling with black and female but we are slowly getting there. This year the focus is on gay people and same sex marriage. Next year it'll be transsexuals. After that, who knows? Robots? Uplifted Bears?

So the question I have is, does society "need" a subordinate group to oppress? In Brave New World, people were divided into 5 castes, alpha beta gamma delta omega. All humans started off as healthy alphas, but the vast majority had alcohol induced deformities to keep them mentally deficient; the more alcohol the lower the caste. The reason for this was that when they built the all-alpha society, it broke down because the alphas not only needed someone to push around, they refused to do the menial but critical work such as farming. In the real world, farming has virtually always been done by those at the bottom of society; slaves, serfs, forced laborers, child laborers, worse. Even today, even with mechanization, we still have child laborers and illegal immigrants do it.

The second question is, if society needs it, why don't we build it? I don't mean replace labor with robots, I mean replace 'minorities' with minoritibots; robots we build specifically to oppress. The reason this comes up is because I kind of want to send a "fuckyou" to the police departments every time some oppression of minorities happens. "Hey, stop oppressing people, here I built this robot for you to oppress".

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby ahammel » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:19 am UTC

You can't really "oppress" something that isn't sentient, so, yeah, this is a cartoonishly evil idea.
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Nov 15, 2014 12:24 am UTC

I don't think the point of Brave New World was that the other castes were required to be oppressed, but that they were required to do the labor...?

And similarly, I don't think only minorities do the crap jobs people don't want to do, though, sure, there's certainly a prevalence of minorities in those jobs... Perhaps due to opportunity and education inequalities?

Personally, I'm of the persuasion that we don't need minorities to oppress, but that society has a habit for not liking what challenges it's status quo. Maybe in the future it won't be homosexuals or uplifted bears, but radicalized beliefs. I remember a great Hardcore History talking about how Caesar was part of a youth movement that was noted for loving androgynous hair and clothing styles, new musicians and fomenting dissent against authority, with Dan Harlan making a joke that Caesar was basically a hipster.

I guess I'm saying that some of this intersocial conflict is real, and the product of oppressive and ingrained racism/classism/sexism/etc, and ideally, we'd live in a society that does do that.

But, sure, you want your punching bag to ask for freedom and equality, have at it.
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Puppyclaws » Sat Nov 15, 2014 11:51 am UTC

What a profoundly Western-centric thing to say.

Oppression of disadvantaged groups doesn't exist because we need it, it's because [lengthy diatribe on the history of humankind]. And though it is trendy to say that actually there are some magically simple underlying mechanisms to human behavior that explain everything neatly and succinctly, that's not what history or psychology as disciplines suggest.

Also, rights movements have been more concurrent than serial.

Also also, I don't think that police are looking for people to oppress. They are instead bound in cultural norms which say that black people, gay people, etc., are not really people (and highly dangerous). Then we give them guns and the blue shield. Results not shocking. Also also also, if there are people who need to oppress others, those people are probably not satisfied oppressing robots, just as we'd expect people who abuse and control their romantic partners or co-workers would not be satisfied abusing and controlling computers.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:29 pm UTC

...no, quite sure many police join because they get to beat people up. A lot of them aren't oppressing minorities because that's society but because some people derive pleasure from causing suffering.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Ormurinn » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:51 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:...no, quite sure many police join because they get to beat people up. A lot of them aren't oppressing minorities because that's society but because some people derive pleasure from causing suffering.


You know there is a psychiatric evaluation prior to employment as a police officer specifically to stop people like that getting in, right?

Likewise for the armed forces.
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 15, 2014 3:52 pm UTC

Yes there is. Doesn't always work. Especially in small towns that are desperate for cheap cops.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Ormurinn » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:08 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Yes there is. Doesn't always work. Especially in small towns that are desperate for cheap cops.


Oh sure, there are always false positives/negatives on that sort of thing.

Still, you'd expect there to be far, far less fewer police officers with that particular character flaw proportionate to the general population. If you want to beat innocent people up better to become a bouncer or a boxer or any number of less regulated professions.

If you specifically want to beat up *minorities* you'll have your work even more cut out for you in the police force in a western country. The slightest whiff of racism will get you hung out to dry.

Look at the media lynching of Darren Wilson in the U.S for instance. More and more it's seeming that the evidence in the case (indicating that Brown was attempting to take Wilsons weapon when he was shot) will exonerate Wilson, but that didn't stop the media leaping to a narrative of cops as racist thugs shooting innocent minorities for fun.
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby The Great Hippo » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:20 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:If you specifically want to beat up *minorities* you'll have your work even more cut out for you in the police force in a western country. The slightest whiff of racism will get you hung out to dry.

Look at the media lynching of Darren Wilson in the U.S for instance. More and more it's seeming that the evidence in the case (indicating that Brown was attempting to take Wilsons weapon when he was shot) will exonerate Wilson, but that didn't stop the media leaping to a narrative of cops as racist thugs shooting innocent minorities for fun.
As I recall, you don't live in the US, so I'm going to try and be polite about this: You have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

If you want to learn about how police treat minorities in the US in a very dry, academic way, go examine statistics regarding how many black people get arrested for drug use -- how many white people get arrested for drug use -- and then, go read about what the actual ratios of drug use between black people and white people are. Or go check out comparisons between sentences given out to black people and white people for the very same crime (and essentially the same criminal history -- and hell, in some cases, the very same judge!). Or go read about the case of MOVE. Or, hell, just google 'police vs black people'.

If you want to learn about how police treat minorities in the US in a very horrifying way, go be a minority in the US. Your chances of being pulled over, arrested, beaten, brutalized, or killed by an officer suddenly increase. Regardless of your economic background.

Even if this particular officer is completely innocent (I find that unlikely, but I honestly don't know), for every case of 'faux racism' in the police force that the media is looking at, I can cite you ten cases of actual, nearly indisputable racism that the media barely (if at all) glanced at. The police have been at war with minorities in the US for a very, very long time -- a lot of it has to do with the fact that the police in the US engage in a policy of escalation, rather than de-escalation. There's probably also the militarization of the police to blame, and the fact that you have such a high proportion of non-minority police policing minority neighborhoods -- all of which contribute to an atmosphere of 'Us' vs 'Them'.

So, yes: the US police force is largely a bunch of (poorly) trained thugs, a significant portion of which will be happy to beat, brutalize, and even kill minorities.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Nov 15, 2014 4:55 pm UTC

The way majorities can self-victimize when minorities try and get some equality is... stunning.
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Nov 15, 2014 5:26 pm UTC

Slightest whiff of racism? Not when you have cops that are members of the KKK. Admittedly that's not a whiff, just an overpowering retching stench of filth. Oh sure, being a member of the KKK isn't proof of racism, merely circumstantial, but you can damn well bet the farm that if someone willingly joins the KKK they are racist.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby HungryHobo » Mon Nov 17, 2014 1:47 pm UTC

Even if you select mentally healthy people there's also good evidence that being put in authority over others has a negative effect on most human brains so the nice young man who ace'd the psych exam can be breaking fingers with the best of them a few months later.

It's hard to make predictions about the future. We tend to look back at the past and see things getting more like the present and assume that things are moving in a straight line but social views and popular views on morals aren't approaching some fixed point.

"The past is a foreign country: they do things differently there."

The same can be said about the future, people like to assume that things will continue on the same path as the last 10 years but it's pretty much certain that when we're elderly we'll be shocked and horrified by things we'll consider immoral, that we care deeply about but which the young people consider fine.

Perhaps someone will just sell a cheap chip which gives you the same feeling of self satisfaction you'd get from feeling better than others so everyone can feel like the 0.01% all the time.
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Nov 17, 2014 8:50 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:This is one of those quasi serious quasi joke ideas that came to me recently. Feel free to suggest if this belongs in another section.

So I was thinking about the progression of society, and how as we become more egalitarian we move in to the group to bring into mainstream society while mainstream society fights back. First we only had 'white english men', then we included the English-algonquins (the pilgrims intermarried, so...). Then we added the French, then Irish. Somewhere on the way Jews were added. We are struggling with black and female but we are slowly getting there. This year the focus is on gay people and same sex marriage. Next year it'll be transsexuals. After that, who knows? Robots? Uplifted Bears?

So the question I have is, does society "need" a subordinate group to oppress? In Brave New World, people were divided into 5 castes, alpha beta gamma delta omega. All humans started off as healthy alphas, but the vast majority had alcohol induced deformities to keep them mentally deficient; the more alcohol the lower the caste. The reason for this was that when they built the all-alpha society, it broke down because the alphas not only needed someone to push around, they refused to do the menial but critical work such as farming. In the real world, farming has virtually always been done by those at the bottom of society; slaves, serfs, forced laborers, child laborers, worse. Even today, even with mechanization, we still have child laborers and illegal immigrants do it.

The second question is, if society needs it, why don't we build it? I don't mean replace labor with robots, I mean replace 'minorities' with minoritibots; robots we build specifically to oppress. The reason this comes up is because I kind of want to send a "fuckyou" to the police departments every time some oppression of minorities happens. "Hey, stop oppressing people, here I built this robot for you to oppress".


Definitions are mostly arbitrary. Green eyed people are a minority, but for whatever reason, it isn't considered a relevant differentiation. Yet. Maybe it will be, but for right now, nobody seems to really give much of a crap about it. I suppose that's the ideal state. We can always find arbitrary ways to divide humanity up.

As for "need", well...what do you call need? Does not doing so have some adverse outcome you can point to? We need food, because without that, we kinda starve. What happens if someone doesn't oppress? It seems like you'd want some evidence to support this being a need.

It seems likely that it will be with us for quite some time, but that's not the same as saying we need it.

Ormurinn wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:...no, quite sure many police join because they get to beat people up. A lot of them aren't oppressing minorities because that's society but because some people derive pleasure from causing suffering.


You know there is a psychiatric evaluation prior to employment as a police officer specifically to stop people like that getting in, right?

Likewise for the armed forces.


I don't recall this being a part of my enlistment. I mean, sure, there was a day where we were generally evaluated, but they were more looking to make sure we didn't hide a pile of medical disabilities or what not. More of a general checkup at the doctor's office.

I believe the primary determination of who gets to be a sheriff in most jurisdictions is "who can get the most votes". Other requirements may exist, but I dare say it is not strongly selected based on psychiatric evaluations.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby The Great Hippo » Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:08 am UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I believe the primary determination of who gets to be a sheriff in most jurisdictions is "who can get the most votes". Other requirements may exist, but I dare say it is not strongly selected based on psychiatric evaluations.
And even if it were -- considering the state of psychiatry in America today, I would not trust a random psychiatrist to be able to tell the difference between the Dalai Lama and Jeffrey Dahmer. Nevermind Serpico and a violent thug.

EDIT: (Maybe that's a little excessive. But I really don't trust psychiatrists.)

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Nov 18, 2014 2:36 am UTC

Psychiatrists are far better than that; it's Chiropractors that tend to be full of shit. At least Psychiatrists didn't have to sue the AMA to let them in.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Forest Goose » Tue Nov 18, 2014 5:43 am UTC

Is it a psychiatric or psychological examination? They're not the same thing. I'm guessing the latter; and while both are respectable as fields, psychology can definitely be bent and confused by the examiner - and, depending on where they are coming from, it isn't necessarily that backed up by evidence. There's a lot of things that fall under the heading of "Psychology", without seeing what an actual examination consists of, how it is conducted, etc., there is no way to evaluate how good such screening is. A standardized test will only catch what it is designed for - an eager in the wrong way examiner with a four year degree and a year of experience will only catch the most egregious of problem cases.

The other part of the problem is that even if you are disallowing foreseeable problems, you have to ask how good psych support is for people doing the job (and it isn't always that great). If you end up having multiple violent interactions with minorities, it's not that hard to see how even a good intelligent person might end up reaching the conclusion that minorities are dangerous (I'm not justifying this, but trauma and fear can mess you up very easily, even the best of us, without the right support systems in place). It's also not hard to see how being part of a group that is exposed to violence can lead to an "us -vs- them" mentality. I don't think that the officers are the problem, I think it is the nature of the work coupled with a less than adequate support system and culture surrounding it.
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Nov 18, 2014 4:17 pm UTC

The Great Hippo wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I believe the primary determination of who gets to be a sheriff in most jurisdictions is "who can get the most votes". Other requirements may exist, but I dare say it is not strongly selected based on psychiatric evaluations.
And even if it were -- considering the state of psychiatry in America today, I would not trust a random psychiatrist to be able to tell the difference between the Dalai Lama and Jeffrey Dahmer. Nevermind Serpico and a violent thug.

EDIT: (Maybe that's a little excessive. But I really don't trust psychiatrists.)


Neither do I. It's got a giant pile of subjectivity in it, and not nearly enough science.

CorruptUser wrote:Psychiatrists are far better than that; it's Chiropractors that tend to be full of shit. At least Psychiatrists didn't have to sue the AMA to let them in.


Oh, they're full of crap too. As are faith healers, plenty of "alternative medicine" folks, and god knows what else. It's a very long list.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby addams » Sun Nov 23, 2014 4:33 am UTC

Excuse me.
The Stanford Prison Experiment proves beyond all doubt, men and women placed in positions of power over others are at Very High Risk of becoming Abusers.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stanford_prison_experiment

Yes. Black Men and Women are at Very High Risk of becoming Victims.
Not all Police and Military violence is directed at people of color.

I know for a Fact, all those guys need is a little encouragement and the protection of a privileged position.
Poor White Women are as At Risk as Black Men. I know it is difficult to believe. It's true, anyway.

Besides; When it comes to Police Violence against a helpless person,
That person is having a 100% experience.

If only 20% of the people that look and sound like me are abused,
That is cold comfort, while I am being abused.

We each have some responsibility.
What way are we pushing and pulling our culture?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:27 pm UTC

addams wrote:The Stanford Prison Experiment proves beyond all doubt, men and women placed in positions of power over others are at Very High Risk of becoming Abusers.


No it doesn't.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby addams » Sun Nov 23, 2014 3:50 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
addams wrote:The Stanford Prison Experiment proves beyond all doubt, men and women placed in positions of power over others are at Very High Risk of becoming Abusers.


No it doesn't.

ok.
You bet your life on the Honor of a non-random group of uniformed and armed predominately white men.
I'd rather folks considered the data the academics in sociology and physiology departments have to offer, before betting my life.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

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Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
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They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby CorruptUser » Sun Nov 23, 2014 5:54 pm UTC

I... think you got it backwards Addams. You quoted the Standford Prison Experiment, you are the one basing your views of humanity on a six day study of (affluent and white male) college students in an incredibly biased experiment. Not me.

I simultaneously have more faith in humanity than that, and less faith in humanity. It's complicated. During disasters, most people will band together and help each other out, unlike what every post-apocalytic movie ever shows. At the same time, anyone that actually learns the uncastrated un-Bowlderized history knows that if there isn't enough food to go around people will sooner murder their own children than give up sex, and if they aren't murdering theirs it's because they are murdering yours.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby addams » Sun Nov 23, 2014 8:06 pm UTC

The Stanford Prison Experiment is not the only way we know these things.
It is the easiest to get to and the easiest to understand.

All the components have been teased and teased out over the last 100 years.
Some are absolutely surprising. I have been in on a few.

The Tee Shirt One.
What a Hoot!

You can re-do it with no harm to anyone.
It's funny.

Within 30 seconds of entering a room, we are self-segregating based on a Tee Shirt we have been wearing for less than five minutes.
When the camera view is from above it is hysterical. Friends that are wearing opposite colored shirts sometimes hold hands and cower.

Gee.
Do you really have a white friend?
Do your other friends know?

Is white a popular and accepted color?
How about old?

Poor?
Eeeww.

Do you really hang out with an illiterate poor guy?
Why??

Another one that is fun is, "Who will follow orders?"
How far will you follow those orders?

Orders that we have seen followed are not questioned as deeply nor as often as orders that are fresh and new to you.
So much has been done, without putting test subjects at physical or much psychological risk of harm.

The Stanford Prison Experiment can not be re-done as a study.
We know better, now. It spontaneously re-does its self.

(yuck) Patho-Psychology is not a fun subject for me.
The guy that was The Point Man on that study, is a bit of an expert.

He dedicated a chunk of his life to understanding what happened.
Look him up. He has written books and is consulted by governments and other experts.

You can consult him.
He is not shy about what we Know to be Fact.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby HungryHobo » Mon Nov 24, 2014 1:40 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I... think you got it backwards Addams. You quoted the Standford Prison Experiment, you are the one basing your views of humanity on a six day study of (affluent and white male) ...


he was implying that police are a non random sample of mostly white males.

I find the Milgram and Asch experiments more interesting because they've both been replicated so very very many times in different cultures/countries/conditions and how certain pretty much everyone who ever hears about them is that they'd personally be a dissenter when in reality > half of us wouldn't.
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby addams » Mon Nov 24, 2014 2:05 pm UTC

jeeze.
It would be nice for you leave a link.
I had to Google. That is a specialty.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Milgram_experiment

OK! Back to Comedy.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Small-world_experiment
Is it Kevin Bacon or John Malcovich that we are All six degrees from?

Did you ever sit down and do a diagram of Famous People and You?
I was a little too close for comfort. You?

Back to The Real Deal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asch_confo ... xperiments

Yes. We, most of us, are deeply social.
Imbedded within us, right there next to altruism, is conformity.

Maybe, I should take up Prayer.
Please, God; Don't ask me to know what can't know.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Autolykos » Tue Nov 25, 2014 12:39 pm UTC

HungryHobo wrote: [...] how certain pretty much everyone who ever hears about them is that they'd personally be a dissenter when in reality > half of us wouldn't.

Depends on what you mean by "us". I'd suspect the nerds that predominantly populate this forum to have a pretty large part of dissenters (at least in Asch's Conformity Experiment; in variations of Milgram's, the slight tendency towards autistic traits might come back to bite us).
There are basically three reasons for my expectation*:

1) Nerds tend to use intuition (instead of direct sensing) to gather information of the world. This leads to a way of thinking that is completely alien to the more sensing-oriented people (and vice-versa). The intuitive way is, however, in the minority (only about 1/4), making us used to thinking differently and being unable to explain our reasoning to most other people.
2) Nerds are usually more analytical than cooperative (which is strongly correlated with lower agreeability, if you like your Big Five). This pretty much by definition increases the chance to dissent when disagreeing with the majority.
3) Nerds tend to be smart (or at the very least very knowledgeable about their topics), and thus are used to being right most of the time. Again, not what makes them likely to agree with anything they suspect to be wrong.

*I'm using Jung's types here because I'm more familiar with them, but you could probably do the same using Big Five or any other system you like.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby addams » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:02 pm UTC

I think you might be wrong about how protective intelligence is.
Yes. In areas that we are experts in, we will 'Stick to Our Guns'.

If there is wiggle room, we wiggle, too.
I know, I do.

Dumb Shits are very good at having their minds slam shut on an idea.
No force in Heaven nor on Earth can change that mind.

I know that when I am confronted with data that Does Not Fit, I hesitate.
Even in areas I have some education in.

Our ability and willingness to turn to experts and to redesign reality based on the Collective Hunch is one of our more charming qualities.
There is a joke that describes what some of the smartest guys we had did, during the development of the Atomic Weapons.

The Math seemed Wrong.
One very high ranking official said,

"It looks like outside to me."
"It looks like outside to you."
"If He says it's inside. It's inside."

I don't know where you went to school.
Where I went to school, we were required to evaluate some kinds of information without any input from anyone.

During tests that Rule was so strictly enforced, we had chaperones when we went to the Loo.
Only after we could evaluate the data on our own were we allowed to work in teams.

Some of those teams were Damned funny.
Stumbling all over ourselves and each other, trying to Not take The Lead.

Like a British Comedy.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby HungryHobo » Tue Nov 25, 2014 1:36 pm UTC

Autolykos wrote:1) Nerds tend to use intuition (instead of direct sensing) to gather information of the world. This leads to a way of thinking that is completely alien to the more sensing-oriented people (and vice-versa). The intuitive way is, however, in the minority (only about 1/4), making us used to thinking differently and being unable to explain our reasoning to most other people.


I did a bit of a search and while "Nerd" isn't a category that's clearly defined enough to use as an experimental group people diagnosed with Aspergers is and there'd a certain amount of overlap between nerds and people with mild aspergers.


http://www.pubfacts.com/detail/8040221/ ... earch-note.

Asch's line judgement task was used to compare the susceptibility to social influence of adults with Asperger's syndrome with that of two groups of controls one of which was matched on verbal IQ. There was no overall difference between the three groups' mean rate of conformity but in contrast to both groups of controls, the subjects with Asperger's syndrome were significantly more likely to adopt a consistently conforming or nonconforming strategy. There were also significant differences between the groups in their interaction with the other participants. The implications of the findings are discussed in the context of current theories of autistic social dysfunction.
Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.

Autolykos
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Autolykos » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:34 pm UTC

A preference for intuition is not the same as Aspergers. I even doubt that one has much to do with the other or that there is much correlation, positive or negative.
Still, everything I wrote is just wild speculation and I'm willing to yield to superior evidence, should some turn up.

I might have missed that some people probably don't value the issue enough, don't expect to be able to convince the other side and thus will just agree to stop wasting time and energy on pointless discussions. This should also be a pretty common experience for nerds...

HungryHobo
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby HungryHobo » Wed Nov 26, 2014 1:58 pm UTC

Autolykos wrote:A preference for intuition is not the same as Aspergers.


Fair enough though if you have a reasonable objective definition of "nerd" I can see if there's anything closer.

In the geeky circles I live in an actual diagnosis of aspergers is somewhat more common than in the general population.
Give a man a fish, he owes you one fish. Teach a man to fish, you give up your monopoly on fisheries.

Autolykos
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Autolykos » Wed Nov 26, 2014 3:03 pm UTC

Yeah, getting a solid definition of nerd is quite hard, and I don't claim to have one that could stand up to scientific scrutiny. What I'm mostly going by is identifying the traits and personality types I found most commonly among the nerds I know. High openness is probably top, with a slight propensity towards lower extraversion and agreeableness. Not sure about conscientiousness and neuroticism (I'd guess slightly negative and slightly positive, but I don't have enough data).

Tyndmyr
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Re: Manufactured Minorities

Postby Tyndmyr » Wed Nov 26, 2014 5:39 pm UTC

Autolykos wrote:Yeah, getting a solid definition of nerd is quite hard, and I don't claim to have one that could stand up to scientific scrutiny. What I'm mostly going by is identifying the traits and personality types I found most commonly among the nerds I know. High openness is probably top, with a slight propensity towards lower extraversion and agreeableness. Not sure about conscientiousness and neuroticism (I'd guess slightly negative and slightly positive, but I don't have enough data).


Self identification on a randomly selected survey would probably be the best you could do. Getting hard definitions for cultural groups can be awkward, since the boundaries are always fuzzy, but looking for patterns in people who identify as nerds is probably a good place to start.


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