Mental support for pedophiles

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Ormurinn
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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby Ormurinn » Tue Dec 02, 2014 10:48 am UTC

PAstrychef wrote:And what does any of this have to do with the topic?


Someone advocated having a Norwegian-style rehabilitative penal system in the U.S and I responded saying it's not as easy as that and there may be cultural or even biological explanations for Norway's successful penal system, outside of the system as a whole. That snowballed into a discussion of biological and social influences on crime.

That said, I'd be extremely surprised if there isn't a cluster of genes that is overrepresented in paedophiles - at the point at which we have universal genetic screening it might be possible to flag them for early psychological intervention - similarly to how people with a family history of glaucoma get more frequent eye checks.

Some cultures are more encouraging of paedophilia than others too - efforts to stop child sex abuse could probably get a higher cost/benefit ratio if they focused some effort specifically on those cultures - In the U.K for instance there have been the Rotherham, Rochdale, Derby, Nottingham and Leicester cases.

Basically the assertion that "all groups of people naturally have similar levels of propensity for crime and vice" is wrong and making that assumption hamstrings efforts to actually address problems.
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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby Quercus » Sun Dec 14, 2014 4:12 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Some cultures are more encouraging of paedophilia than others too - efforts to stop child sex abuse could probably get a higher cost/benefit ratio if they focused some effort specifically on those cultures - In the U.K for instance there have been the Rotherham, Rochdale, Derby, Nottingham and Leicester cases.


While that may be true it could also be the case that some societies are better at detecting paedophilia-associated crimes than others, in which case the cost/benefit ratio is entirely reversed (in actuality both factors are almost certainly at work, and it's difficult to disentangle them because of the number of unknowns). It's a tricky one.

On the original topic, I'm firmly of the belief than everyone, with no exceptions, should be offered mental health support, that includes paedophiles. Paedophiles who are a danger to children should of course be rendered not-dangerous to children by whatever means, but that shouldn't have an impact on their ability to access mental health resources. TL,DR: I agree with the general tone of the (on-topic portions of the) thread.

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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby whatifquestions » Thu Aug 20, 2015 5:25 pm UTC

Thank god my 13th birthday was half a year ago. *phew* Dodged a bullet there.

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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby jewish_scientist » Thu Sep 03, 2015 2:17 pm UTC

A philosopher named Peter Singer makes the argument that because sexual relationships between two men has been accepted by society, sexual relationships between a human and an animal should become acceptable to society*. He says that bestiality (do not google) is a sexual orientation, just like homosexuality. This idea is even harder to argue against than pedophilia. A person psychologically harm children by the very act of sexually expressing themselves to that child; Singer says that an animal is not (always) harmed psychologically when a person expresses themselves sexually to it. Minors cannot give consent (see legal definition of minor); Singer says that an animal can consent by initiating the interaction. What do you think? Should bestiality be acceptable?

*The only exception being one where the relationship is inherently cruel because of a size difference.
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Some people here and elsewhere say that because sexual orientation is not a choose, it is impossible to change. Then then draw from this that any sexual orientation must be an accepted alternative lifestyle. I find this logic very faulty.

Regarding the first point, no one chooses to be a kleptomaniac; but there is therapy to assist those afflicted by this disease. Similarly, no one chooses to be color blind, have Sickle cell anemia, or be born with a deformity; yet if a person found a new way to remove these conditions would be a shoo-in for a Noble Prize. These are clear counterexamples. None of them are the result of a chose, but they are still curable.

Regarding the second point, imagine someone suggesting that mock stores should be set up so that a kleptomaniac can steal without harming themselves and others. No therapist would consider his proposal. Trying to set up a situation where they can safely steal is an contradiction; a kleptomaniac damages themselves by the very act of stealing. The idea that this mental disease should be sociable acceptable** and regarded as a lifestyle is absurd.

The point I am making is that social acceptance and the permanency of a condition cannot be logically derived solely from whether it is the result of a choose or not.

**Just to be clear: when I say that something is 'socially acceptable', I mean that society does not believe, pressure, or force someone to change it. Something that is not longer stigmatic is not necessarily 'socially acceptable.
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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby elasto » Thu Sep 03, 2015 3:57 pm UTC

The topic of bestiality is probably better off in its own thread.

This seems like a non-sequitor though: "because sexual relationships between two men has been accepted by society, sexual relationships between a human and an animal should become acceptable to society"

- 'because sexual relationships between people of very high iq has been accepted by society, sexual relationships between people of very low iq should be acceptable to society"
- 'because sexual relationships between sober people has been accepted by society, sexual relationships between one sober and one blind drunk person should be acceptable to society"
- 'because sexual relationships between people of the same race has been accepted by society, sexual relationships between people of different races should be acceptable to society"

I mean, maybe it should and maybe it shouldn't. Each situation can and should be considered on its own merits...

Personally I don't think bestiality should be illegal. Only cruelty should be illegal. With some animals - especially social ones - it's pretty damn obvious if the animal likes the activity, is indifferent, or hates it. Every time my dog goes on heat and bangs my leg for 15 minutes it's pretty obvious she's not hating it...

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PAstrychef
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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby PAstrychef » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:19 am UTC

jewish_scientist wrote:A philosopher named Peter Singer makes the argument that because sexual relationships between two men has been accepted by society, sexual relationships between a human and an animal should become acceptable to society*. He says that bestiality (do not google) is a sexual orientation, just like homosexuality. This idea is even harder to argue against than pedophilia. A person psychologically harm children by the very act of sexually expressing themselves to that child; Singer says that an animal is not (always) harmed psychologically when a person expresses themselves sexually to it. Minors cannot give consent (see legal definition of minor); Singer says that an animal can consent by initiating the interaction. What do you think? Should bestiality be acceptable?

*The only exception being one where the relationship is inherently cruel because of a size difference.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Some people here and elsewhere say that because sexual orientation is not a choose, it is impossible to change. Then then draw from this that any sexual orientation must be an accepted alternative lifestyle. I find this logic very faulty.

Regarding the first point, no one chooses to be a kleptomaniac; but there is therapy to assist those afflicted by this disease. Similarly, no one chooses to be color blind, have Sickle cell anemia, or be born with a deformity; yet if a person found a new way to remove these conditions would be a shoo-in for a Noble Prize. These are clear counterexamples. None of them are the result of a chose, but they are still curable.

Regarding the second point, imagine someone suggesting that mock stores should be set up so that a kleptomaniac can steal without harming themselves and others. No therapist would consider his proposal. Trying to set up a situation where they can safely steal is an contradiction; a kleptomaniac damages themselves by the very act of stealing. The idea that this mental disease should be sociable acceptable** and regarded as a lifestyle is absurd.

The point I am making is that social acceptance and the permanency of a condition cannot be logically derived solely from whether it is the result of a choose or not.

**Just to be clear: when I say that something is 'socially acceptable', I mean that society does not believe, pressure, or force someone to change it. Something that is not longer stigmatic is not necessarily 'socially acceptable.


First off, this thread is discussing helping people with a very unfortunate sexual orientation avoid harming others and cope with daily life. It's not about the slippery slope of tolerance.
That said, kleptomania and color blindness are not the same-one is controllable, one is a physical condition. I could work on not stealing, but I could never work on seeing red-green differences, if I was color blind. Ostracizing pedophiles only makes it much harder for them to work on controlling their daily lives without harming others. Also, if one is compelled to steal, doing so would seem to be a healthy thing to do. How does a kleptomaniac harm herself by stealing? Because we believe that sex between children and adults is inherently damaging, we stigmatize pedophilia.
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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby Quercus » Fri Sep 04, 2015 11:37 am UTC

PAstrychef wrote:but I could never work on seeing red-green differences, if I was color blind.

Not quite true - that's the case for dichromasy, but not necessarily for anomalous trichromasy. I have anomalous trichromasy (specifically protanomaly), and I find that the ambient lighting, my alertness, whether my glasses have a recent correct prescription and how much conscious attention I'm paying to small colour differences all have a large impact on how good I am at distinguishing hues. By noticing and trying to optimise these environmental factors I can indeed work on seeing colour differences that I wouldn't otherwise see, and that's actually quite important to me as an amateur photographer.

Sorry for the off-topic post, I just didn't want to let a common misconception about color blindness stand.

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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 04, 2015 1:04 pm UTC

Most men are attracted to women around age 20. Realistically speaking, most 60 year old men will NOT have an opportunity to consensually act out their desires (ignoring prostitution), and will have to "make do" with a 50 year old woman they aren't particularly attracted to, if at all.

Pedophiles are attracted to people that appear to be age 10 (or whatever). Realistically speaking, the number of people with a health condition that prevents them from entering puberty are few and far between (and, I may have foot-in-mouth here) and probably not as interested in sex, thus they will not have an opportunity to consensually act out their desires. They will have to "make do" with older people they aren't particularly attracted to, if at all.

So, should we treat dirty old men (that haven't raped anyone/hired a prostitute) the same way we treat pedophiles that haven't acted on their desires? Put all grandpas on a registry? Or is the difference that I assume I'll be a dirty old man someday but not a pedophile?

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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby PAstrychef » Fri Sep 04, 2015 2:31 pm UTC

What a difference ten years can make! The ten year old is a child. The twenty year old is free to have sex with whomever they please. If grandpa is coercing sex with adults he can found guilty of criminal assault, but he is not a pedophile. There is little stigma attached to being attracted to twenty year olds.
I don't believe I actually have to parse out this concept.
Why do registries of sex offenders exist? To give the illusion of protection to the community.
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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Sep 04, 2015 3:16 pm UTC

I don't think you grokked my point. Pedophiles have a "safe outlet" with people with some sort of condition that prevents puberty, but these people are few and far between (and without puberty, I doubt they want sex). Gramps has a "safe outlet" with 20 year old women that have a grandpa fetish, but these women are far rarer than old men, so most grandpas are SOL. Yet we don't assume that Gramps is a rapist simply because he has virtually no chance of getting his rocks off with someone he's attracted to without using roofies, but we do with the pedophiles even if they haven't committed a crime yet.

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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby jseah » Wed Sep 16, 2015 3:55 am UTC

There are these:
http://www.bbc.com/news/blogs-echochambers-28353238
http://www.vice.com/read/child-sex-robo ... e-idea-717

Well, I don't see actual robots able to do this for a very long time, but we'll get there eventually.
So, what do you think? A potential possibility? Might it work?

Robots have their behavioural issues but one can look to various dating sims for potential 'storylines' (I'm only familiar with Japanese originated visual novels). Tied to location detection, similar to what Ingress did, it could make fairly realistic events. It seems to work for some Japanese people...
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Re: Mental support for pedophiles

Postby Autolykos » Wed Sep 16, 2015 4:49 pm UTC

Looks like a pretty good solution to me, but I doubt it would be politically viable in most places (at least after the mob gets wind of it). When even stories or drawings are illegal, I don't think you could get away with building and renting/selling those robots for long. Japan is a lot more open than pretty much anywhere else in this regard.


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