Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby eSOANEM » Mon Jul 21, 2014 11:16 pm UTC

(home counties, 20 year old here)

I've heard "oriental" a lot here. Most chinese restaurants around here which include a few thai, vietnamese or korean dishes generally describe those as oriental. Many businesses in chinatown also describe themselves as oriental.

I tend to try to avoid the term because it is offensive to many Americans and and increasingly (possibly under the influence of the states) large minority here but it is certainly much less clear cut here.
my pronouns are they

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:32 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:If, on the other hand, it's because those people have the misfortune of living in the US where the majority of movies are about white men, so they leap at the refreshing chance to see the rare movie that isn't, then it's not racist or xenophobic, it's just wanting a bit of goddamn representation in one's entertainment.
I wish them all the luck in the world. and if they can entertain me, I will donate some money to them for that particular privilege. If on the other hand that comes off as preachy or just doesn't reach me, than too bad. You can mandate anything except my right to be entertained in the way I enjoy. The thing is this, in the long term what might reduce white dominance is the niches that technology creates. Which creates opportunity for those movies to be made. Video on demand and movies released to DVD as two examples. Those books in book stores that you fussed about are another.
I have never said anything about a right to be entertained or a mandate or whatever. Of course you can be entertained by whatever you prefer. I only stand by my assertion that, if you can *only* be entertained by people who look like you, that's racist.

As for the very word "preachy", a lot of what privileged people perceive as preachy or "meaniehead bullshit" or the like is literally just marginalized folks talking about their day-to-day experiences. What makes it feel preachy is simply the fact that it illuminates uncomfortable or inconvenient truths about what the world is like for people who lack your specific intersection of privileges. Portrayals of racism aren't always heavy-handed or "beating you over the head" or whatever, they're just portrayals of something you have the privilege of ignoring in your day-to-day life and would prefer to continue ignoring in your media.

Which, again, is totally your right to do, but let's not pretend it's something other than a manifestation of racial privilege.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:45 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I only stand by my assertion that, if you can *only* be entertained by people who look like you, that's racist.
When I actually find someone like that I'll remember that.
gmalivuk wrote:What makes it feel preachy is simply the fact that it illuminates uncomfortable or inconvenient truths about what the world is like for people who lack your specific intersection of privileges. Portrayals of racism aren't always heavy-handed or "beating you over the head" or whatever, they're just portrayals of something you have the privilege of ignoring in your day-to-day life and would prefer to continue ignoring in your media.

Which, again, is totally your right to do, but let's not pretend it's something other than a manifestation of racial privilege.
I don't often get to exercise my racial privilege, I don't have much money or power.

Spoilered for my whining.
Spoiler:
I've seen the results of racism in action. I was in Washington in 68 after the riots, 16,000 Federal troops. My own hometown was the site of riots as well in the same year one month later(National Guard called in). At my boarding school there were fights about putting the flag at half staff when MLK was assassinated, between two factions one Black(or people of color if that offends anyone) and the other white. The local amusement park in my town was whites only until it closed. Something so transparent to me as a child that when I talked to a resident of the upscale condo I worked in about my fond memories he had to remind me he couldn't get in the gates when he was young. Not a red letter moment. In 1975 I got a look at the ugly side of people again when busing started, and I got to see the National Guard called out for the second time in my life to make sure the buses got through safely. I don't need it shoved in my face however you want to define shoved in my face. I get it.
Whining over.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:13 am UTC

morriswalters wrote:I don't often get to exercise my racial privilege, I don't have much money or power.
Okay, so you don't have class privilege. That doesn't negate white privilege, though. (One example of which is, as I said, the ability to generally ignore microaggressions and unpleasant truths in your day-to-day life, whether or not you've witnessed big examples macroaggression firsthand.)
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby BattleMoose » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:26 am UTC

Morris, your whining included an exact incident where you benefited because you were white.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:40 am UTC

BattleMoose wrote:Morris, your whining included an exact incident where you benefited because you were white.
I assume that you are referring to the amusement park. You are quite correct which is why I was ashamed.
gmalivuk wrote:One example of which is, as I said, the ability to generally ignore microaggressions and unpleasant truths in your day-to-day life, whether or not you've witnessed big examples macroaggression firsthand
I try my damnedest not to be angry when you say things like that. You read but you don't understand. I know white privilege exists, you have no lock on that information. I also know that it is the covert not the overt at work today. You worry about face counts and representative samples of cultural types to satisfy some criteria that you think has some special meaning. Books and movies aren't the problem. It is the things you don't see that you should worry about. I suspect the casting person at the studios has a guide which has recommended faces for any scripts, how light or dark, how asian or of what ethnicity and when and where they will be in any movie or TV show. I suspect that considerable attention was given to casting Lucy Liu. If you think that was a happy accident I would say you would be wrong.

And just for the record the way the OP set it up it should be first, American domination, then white American, after that white European . The French seem to worry about this constantly. I believe they see us as cultural barbarians. The number one movie in South America at last read was about giant fucking robots modeled after an American children's cartoon. Look at what populations go to University in what locations. And what type of music gets played.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 4:08 am UTC

Books and movies aren't the *only* problem. But they are a problem, and representation fucking matters.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:58 am UTC

Yes. Treating people fairly and having empathy is always important.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 11:39 am UTC

It goes way beyond that, though. As I said, he may not have written about it from Jail, but MLK thought representation was important enough that he convinced Nichelle Nichols to stay on Star Trek because he wanted his kids to see someone who looked like them in a significant role. (And there's also the well-known account of how excited Whoopi Goldberg was to see a black woman on TV as someone other than a maid for once.)

Representation obviously benefits the actors and actresses hired to play roles, but the number of people benefitted that way is far outweighed by the number of people who in the audience who are affected by if and how their ethnicity is portrayed in media.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby leady » Tue Jul 22, 2014 12:59 pm UTC

I know - my ongoing desire to become an evil meglomanic has been irrecocably determined by the relentless depiction of the evil English by Hollywood :)

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Brace » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:09 pm UTC

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:09 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:It goes way beyond that, though. As I said, he may not have written about it from Jail, but MLK thought representation was important enough that he convinced Nichelle Nichols to stay on Star Trek because he wanted his kids to see someone who looked like them in a significant role. (And there's also the well-known account of how excited Whoopi Goldberg was to see a black woman on TV as someone other than a maid for once.)

Representation obviously benefits the actors and actresses hired to play roles, but the number of people benefitted that way is far outweighed by the number of people who in the audience who are affected by if and how their ethnicity is portrayed in media.
Yes. I understand that. And I don't disagree, except to the matter of degree. But I think your only going to get better representation than you have now when the behind the scenes changes get made' For instance If you ever expect to see Gay males who are something more than two guys holding hands in the background, you are going to have to have Gay writers who can bring the POV of a Gay protagonist to the table, and make the audience see him for what he is. Which is someone like themselves. And then find the money to make it.

As an aside, when writing this I started to think about people I've known. And it turns out that I have known quite a few Gay Men but almost no Lesbians or transgender persons. At least that I'm aware of.
leady wrote:I know - my ongoing desire to become an evil meglomanic has been irrecocably determined by the relentless depiction of the evil English by Hollywood :)
You get a free pass from me, I am an Anglophile. It may be a language bias though, considering that I am of German descent.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby leady » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:54 pm UTC

ooh double evil ! (alledgedly i'm 1/32 or 1/16 German i forget)

This does remind me that I do keep intending to get my DNA profiled...

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 22, 2014 1:56 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Probably half of my negative interactions with people over being trans have involved people saying something about trans-dolphins (South Park) or putting the lotion on the skin (Silence of the Lambs). I doubt it's quite that obvious with race most of the time, but yeah, for whatever reason people typically assume that what they see on tv is a romanticized version of reality and not pure make-believe. Media representation is further down the list than most concerns, I think, but it's not nothing.


The dolphin thing existed long before South Park. Has to do with New Agers being obsessed with the vicious little rapists (no seriously, dolphins are dicks), so much so they must want to become one with the dolphins. The only other animal that comes close are the chimps (common and bonobo), but they are so close to humans that some biologists claim that humans are a third species of chimpanzee. Dolphins are much less related. So, trans dolphin is the obvious choice.

What do you get when you play New Age music backwards? More New Age music.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:14 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:As for the very word "preachy", a lot of what privileged people perceive as preachy or "meaniehead bullshit" or the like is literally just marginalized folks talking about their day-to-day experiences.


Nah. It's almost invariably white people who believe their sympathy with a given minority makes their words holy.

bigglesworth wrote:
Derek wrote:As far as I'm aware "Oriental" has never been a pejorative in the UK and is still a widely accepted term for East Asians (in contrast to "Asian", which in the UK refers to people from Pakistan, India, and Bangladesh). But I don't know, perhaps some of the American stigma associated with the word has drifted over there.
I've literally never heard the word used to describe a person in conversation (a vase or a jade sculpture, yes). Maybe it's present in the north, maybe it's present in white working class registers of English. But I've not encountered it. Since learning to talk around 1994, people haven't used it in my presence. I've only ever heard East Asian (or admittedly, 'Chinese' for anyone from anywhere in East Asia. But that has a habit of being correct for the vast majority of East Asians in the UK).


The "chinese" to describe asians in general is a thing in parts of the US, unfortunately...and oriental is probably superior to that. Certainly, Japanese folks and the like are not particularly fond of being described as Chinese.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Brace » Tue Jul 22, 2014 2:40 pm UTC

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 22, 2014 3:37 pm UTC

Brace wrote: You're an idiot who uses a cartoon as a basis for your model of reality, get over it.


At least it's not from some tribal myths :p.

The "trans race" and "trans dolphin" definitely existed before that episode. It popularized it, of course, but it wasn't the first. I'm big into scifi, and there was a TON of trans questions out there long before trans was a separate word. Dan Simmons Hyperion cantos dealt with some of that, where the ousters had tech to modify themselves with wings and such to the point that we'd barely recognize them as human; trans gender was practically tame in comparison.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 5:45 pm UTC

leady wrote:I know - my ongoing desire to become an evil meglomanic has been irrecocably determined by the relentless depiction of the evil English by Hollywood :)
Your ethnicity is not historically marginalized, and it gets plenty of representation in American movies, and most of that representation is humanizing and positive.

Which is a radically different experience than what Arab-Americans face, for example, when if people of their ethnicity are in a movie or TV show at all, they're likely terrorists. Or Blacks and Latinos, who are often portrayed as being in gangs or victims of gangs, and whose music is added to a soundtrack to indicate a protagonist's presence in a dangerous crime-ridden part of town. Or Romani people who are regularly referred to by an ethnic slur and almost universally portrayed as thieves.

Edit:
Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:As for the very word "preachy", a lot of what privileged people perceive as preachy or "meaniehead bullshit" or the like is literally just marginalized folks talking about their day-to-day experiences.

Nah. It's almost invariably white people who believe their sympathy with a given minority makes their words holy.

No, that's just almost invariably how it gets dismissed by privileged whiners.

Sure, there is absolutely some degree of that, but it's not the bulk of what gets complained about as "meaniehead bullshit". The stuff that does get directed at white people is often the result of even the slightest expressed concern for whether something is racist or appropriative. Or perhaps when a white author or producer decides to cast a person of color for a role or something. (There were, for example, huge buckets of white-boy tears over the decision to cast Dylan Marron as Welcome to Night Vale's Carlos back in December.)

A lot of the rest of anti-sjw whining I've come across has dismissed something as coming from a white person when in fact that isn't the case. But I guess it feels less racist to mislabel someone as white before dismissing or disregarding everything they have to say about race, because then you're dismissing them because they're as ignorant as you are, rather than because you would simply rather not face that reality.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:09 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:As for the very word "preachy", a lot of what privileged people perceive as preachy or "meaniehead bullshit" or the like is literally just marginalized folks talking about their day-to-day experiences.

Nah. It's almost invariably white people who believe their sympathy with a given minority makes their words holy.

No, that's just almost invariably how it gets dismissed by privileged whiners.

Sure, there is absolutely some degree of that, but it's not the bulk of what gets complained about as "meaniehead bullshit". The stuff that does get directed at white people is often the result of even the slightest expressed concern for whether something is racist or appropriative. Or perhaps when a white author or producer decides to cast a person of color for a role or something. (There were, for example, huge buckets of white-boy tears over the decision to cast Dylan Marron as Welcome to Night Vale's Carlos back in December.)

A lot of the rest of anti-sjw whining I've come across has dismissed something as coming from a white person when in fact that isn't the case. But I guess it feels less racist to mislabel someone as white before dismissing or disregarding everything they have to say about race, because then you're dismissing them because they're as ignorant as you are, rather than because you would simply rather not face that reality.


I have not the slightest idea of who Dylan Marron is, or what the rest of that means. A local thing perhaps? Maybe something outside my purview? I certainly don't see buckets of tears every time someone who isn't white gets cast in the broader media. Are you seriously holding that people are actually upset that Morgan Freeman gets roles or something? Some non-trivial amount of people, I should say. No doubt a youtube level comment can be found about any topic, but I do not think that is the case.

And yeah, all the people I know that I'd label as meaniehead types(in real life, mind you), happen to be white dudes. This circle happens to include writers for Jezebel and other such...oh, we all know they're wrapped up in social justice. I'm not saying that everyone who happens to write on the topic is a white dude*, but plenty of the worst of them are. Endlessly speaking about the poor victimized (group) that serves as their cause du jour. This generally ends up as a vehicle for ranting, hate, and other such lovely things. This dialogue focuses on blogs and twitter feeds, because even the pretense of this being news, scientific, or what not is clearly unsustainable.

This doesn't mean that there is no racism or any such nonsense...but this particular class of people is frigging poison to society.

*For some variation of white. Not that white is a particularly explanatory category or is useful. In any case, it is extremely popular for folks to take up causes that they have never experienced or comprehensively studied, or have experienced in a laughably limited degree, which is then worn as a badge of honor.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby speising » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:13 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Which is a radically different experience than what Arab-Americans face, for example, when if people of their ethnicity are in a movie or TV show at all, they're likely terrorists. Or Blacks and Latinos, who are often portrayed as being in gangs or victims of gangs, and whose music is added to a soundtrack to indicate a protagonist's presence in a dangerous crime-ridden part of town. Or Romani people who are regularly referred to by an ethnic slur and almost universally portrayed as thieves.
you may have a slanted view on tv shows. my impression is, they are almost painfully careful to be PC nowadays. in multiple crime series they have a black female boss or coroner, for example. arab americans may be suspected terrorists but are inescapably exonerated, etc.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:34 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:I have not the slightest idea of who Dylan Marron is, or what the rest of that means. A local thing perhaps? Maybe something outside my purview?
Out of your purview, I guess. My apologies for expecting you to be able to use Google. Consider recent announcements regarding Thor and Captain America if you comics are more your purview.

speising wrote:you may have a slanted view on tv shows.
Yeah, I guess 24 was just a little niche production that skewed my perception or something.

If shows were "painfully careful to be PC", you'd think that we'd see more proportionate representation. Or that my Arab students would be able to think of more examples of American media that included Arabs at all without their being terrorists or at least strongly linked to terrorism (because you're not helping if you continue to constantly make the connection, even if you end up subverting the trope in the end). Or that TV wouldn't boost white boys' self-esteem while hurting everyone else's.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby speising » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:42 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Tyndmyr wrote:I have not the slightest idea of who Dylan Marron is, or what the rest of that means. A local thing perhaps? Maybe something outside my purview?
Out of your purview, I guess. My apologies for expecting you to be able to use Google.

speising wrote:you may have a slanted view on tv shows.
Yeah, I guess 24 was just a little niche production that skewed my perception or something.

If shows were "painfully careful to be PC", you'd think we'd see more proportionate representation or something.

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just the ones which are on today here and come to my mind immediately.
i've never really seen 24, though, i abhorred the show from what i heard about torture by the hero alone.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Brace » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:49 pm UTC

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 7:57 pm UTC

Ah right, I'd forgotten about that and went for more recent examples.

Tyndmyr wrote:this particular class of people is frigging poison to society.
Absolutely. There are literally communities of pedophiles and Nazis on tumblr, and hate groups and terrorists all over, and people who send death threats (and rape threats of course, if the recipient also happens to be a woman) at the merest suggestion that some games and movies ought to have more racial diversity.

But it's the meanieheads who are "poison".

Right.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:05 pm UTC

The meaniehead is used as a label against the people that get involved in things only for the moral superiority. Which oddly enough, was the foundation of the Social Justice movement; Roman Catholics complaining that both Liberalism and Socialism were too amoral, and we should all become Fascists instead (no, seriously, there is a reason that you didn't hear the phrase "social justice" until a decade ago, despite all the use in the 30's).

Problem of course with tools is that anyone can use them. Just like "check your privilege" is supposed to mean "hey, you aren't seeing things through their eyes because you haven't lived their lives", but it's mostly used as "shut the fuck up you have no right to an opinion".

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:08 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The meaniehead is used as a label against the people that get involved in things only for the moral superiority.
It's used as an attack against anyone fighting for justice, in order to silence them and accuse them of being involved only for the moral superiority.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 22, 2014 8:32 pm UTC

Quite sure I've met a few Social Justice Warriors in my day. When I mentioned my false rape accusation against me, I've had people insult me to my face and tell me I'm a liar, because apparently my own experiences are not as important as their biases. I am not allowed to speak because it's impossible for false accusations to be a thing. I don't know what's worse, that I've had meanieheads attacking me or the MRAs defending me.

Not really paying attention to the Rumblr in the Tumblr or whatever the Reddit/Tumblr fight is called, as I don't use either.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:22 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:The meaniehead is used as a label against the people that get involved in things only for the moral superiority. Which oddly enough, was the foundation of the Social Justice movement; Roman Catholics complaining that both Liberalism and Socialism were too amoral, and we should all become Fascists instead (no, seriously, there is a reason that you didn't hear the phrase "social justice" until a decade ago, despite all the use in the 30's).

Problem of course with tools is that anyone can use them. Just like "check your privilege" is supposed to mean "hey, you aren't seeing things through their eyes because you haven't lived their lives", but it's mostly used as "shut the fuck up you have no right to an opinion".


Pretty much. It's difficult to think of a reasonable instance where "check your privilege" couldn't be replaced by say "hey, have some empathy"....unless, of course, the point is to belittle the person and try to deny their opinion as having validity because of their identity. Which, yknow...is the toxic idea behind discrimination and injustice to begin with.

gmalivuk wrote:[
Tyndmyr wrote:this particular class of people is frigging poison to society.
Absolutely. There are literally communities of pedophiles and Nazis on tumblr, and hate groups and terrorists all over, and people who send death threats (and rape threats of course, if the recipient also happens to be a woman) at the merest suggestion that some games and movies ought to have more racial diversity.

But it's the meanieheads who are "poison".

Right.


Correct. Because the people who send death threats and what not are reviled by society at large. They are widely recognized for what they are. Thus, they present little actual danger. Nazi's are not going to have any appreciable power in US society at large because their reputation is such that their endorsement or support is a negative thing. Ditto your other example. Nobody panders for the pedophile vote.

The social justice folks, however, put out hatred in a form that is accepted and emulated.

CorruptUser wrote:Quite sure I've met a few Social Justice Warriors in my day. When I mentioned my false rape accusation against me, I've had people insult me to my face and tell me I'm a liar, because apparently my own experiences are not as important as their biases. I am not allowed to speak because it's impossible for false accusations to be a thing. I don't know what's worse, that I've had meanieheads attacking me or the MRAs defending me.


God, that's the sort of situation in which you really just want to light EVERYONE on fire.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:42 pm UTC

Tyndmyr wrote:Correct. Because the people who send death threats and what not are reviled by society at large. They are widely recognized for what they are. Thus, they present little actual danger. Nazi's are not going to have any appreciable power in US society at large because their reputation is such that their endorsement or support is a negative thing. Ditto your other example. Nobody panders for the pedophile vote.
So because society pays lipservice to opposing their violence, we can safely dismiss the fact that Nazis continue to commit real actual hate crimes and pedophiles continue to really actually rape children, and instead focus on how terrible it is that someone complained about white people on their blog?
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:45 pm UTC

Is that a "First World Problems" argument?

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:47 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Is that a "First World Problems" argument?
No.

It's an argument that Tyndmyr's claim that such people pose little actual danger is false, because they are the ones actually harming people.

I'm not sure what part of that is a "first world problem", or what connection you're even making here.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:51 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Quite sure I've met a few Social Justice Warriors in my day. When I mentioned my false rape accusation against me, I've had people insult me to my face and tell me I'm a liar, because apparently my own experiences are not as important as their biases. I am not allowed to speak because it's impossible for false accusations to be a thing. I don't know what's worse, that I've had meanieheads attacking me or the MRAs defending me.

Not really paying attention to the Rumblr in the Tumblr or whatever the Reddit/Tumblr fight is called, as I don't use either.
Time will do what peoples mouths can't. Reveal the nature of your character. Your friends should give you the benefit of the doubt, if they are friends. I find there are a couple of types of people, imperfect ones, and those who think they aren't(perfect that is), and of course true dicks. I'd rather deal with true dicks, they are easier to hate. The ones who think they are perfect have good hearts(at least I choose to see it that way), they sometimes forget that people may have to catch up to them. I don't post anywhere but here, And I get into more than enough trouble as is. :D

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby Brace » Tue Jul 22, 2014 9:57 pm UTC

This post had objectionable content.
Last edited by Brace on Mon Oct 06, 2014 12:40 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:05 pm UTC

While I should know better that arguing with the mods...

You seem to be arguing that meanieheads aren't a problem because the problems the SJ movement deals with are so much worse, so anyone who has nasty experiences with the meaniehead should just shut up because other people have it worse. I agree that an insult online is not something you should flip out over. But what if it's people that don't take you seriously when you DO have a real problem because said problem goes against their biases? Because I had one of those problems.


As for fascism and so forth, the War on (some) Drugs was ALWAYS about racism. Every last brewery was owned by German immigrants, and when Prohibition was enacted exceptions were made for "sacramental wine", snake oil, and up to a not insignificant amount of self-made alcohol. Except beer, because we really hated Germans. Opium was banned because Chinese used it, but tobacco and alcohol (and worse) were at the time ok. Marijuana was only used by Hispanics when it was banned. It's legal now only in places where white kids use it, and even then it's practically legal everywhere else if you aren't obvious and you are white. The rules about crack and powder cocaine were blatantly racist, and poor blacks used crack but rich white guys did coke.

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:14 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:You seem to be arguing that meanieheads aren't a problem because the problems the SJ movement deals with are so much worse
No, I'm arguing that meanieheads aren't the worst problem because the problems the SJ movement deals with are so much worse.

Tyndmyr claimed that Nazis and pedophiles and people who send death threats pose "little actual danger", while meanieheads do. Even if we ignore the fact that hate speech is harmful even when it's not followed up by hate crime, and receiving death threats is harmful even if you're not subsequently murdered, there's the fact that hate crimes and rape and murder and child sexual abuse are all really things that happen, and happen with much greater frequency than whatever damage he thinks meanieheads are doing. Even if all experiences like yours with the false rape claim can be blamed on meanieheads, I'd hazard that those experiences are not actually quite as bad as being the victim of a hate crime or child sex trafficking ring.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:26 pm UTC

Wait, are you claiming that it's the Social Justice movement that's going after pedophiles? Last I checked, social justice was the people complaining about income inequality, trans issues, Hollywood stereotypes, and so forth. Not things that are already serious felonies that society as a whole goes after with a vengeance.

Maybe it's because "Social Justice" is one of those vague terms that mean whatever the hell the user wants it to mean. Like "Family Values" or "Sound Currency".

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:27 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:Wait, are you claiming that it's the Social Justice movement that's going after pedophiles?

Look, I can't keep discussing this with you until I know what the hell posts you're reading.

I'm not saying pedophilia is one of the issues the SJ movement typically fights against, I just brought them up as a different online community that is way more "poison" than meanieheads ever were.
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby morriswalters » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:34 pm UTC

Brace wrote:Tyndmyr, I think you're only correct in noting that one can't openly support fascism. It's very easy to just rebrand it, or to sell fascist policy under different pretenses. Is there any reason to assume that the inadvertent effects of bad policy aren't actually intentional effects of policy with aims that can't be spoken aloud? Maybe the war on drugs is supposed to lead to the disproportionate imprisonment of blacks and the deaths of millions of mexicans. Maybe the otherwise arbitrary target of drugs is meant to reveal to those in power which people are inclined to buck authority. Solzenitsyn documented how after a speech at a factory in Stalin's USSR, the workers were caught in a position where they couldn't stop applauding, because the first person to stop would be under suspicion, so they kept clapping for 10, then 15 minutes. Finally the factory manager stopped, which let everyone else stop, and he was arrested. The point was to find out who had initiative and remove them from society, so that only the docile, pliable personalities were left. Maybe US policy is just a collection of really refined versions of these sorts of things.
Could you cite a reference for the story?

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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 22, 2014 10:43 pm UTC

In The Gulag Archipelago, Alexander Solzhenitsyn wrote: At the conclusion of the conference, a tribute to Comrade Stalin was called for. Of course, everyone stood up (just as everyone had leaped to his feet during the conference at every mention of his name). ... For three minutes, four minutes, five minutes, the stormy applause, rising to an ovation, continued. But palms were getting sore and raised arms were already aching. And the older people were panting from exhaustion. It was becoming insufferably silly even to those who really adored Stalin.

However, who would dare to be the first to stop? … After all, NKVD men were standing in the hall applauding and watching to see who would quit first! And in the obscure, small hall, unknown to the leader, the applause went on – six, seven, eight minutes! They were done for! Their goose was cooked! They couldn’t stop now till they collapsed with heart attacks! At the rear of the hall, which was crowded, they could of course cheat a bit, clap less frequently, less vigorously, not so eagerly – but up there with the presidium where everyone could see them?

The director of the local paper factory, an independent and strong-minded man, stood with the presidium. Aware of all the falsity and all the impossibility of the situation, he still kept on applauding! Nine minutes! Ten! In anguish he watched the secretary of the District Party Committee, but the latter dared not stop. Insanity! To the last man! With make-believe enthusiasm on their faces, looking at each other with faint hope, the district leaders were just going to go on and on applauding till they fell where they stood, till they were carried out of the hall on stretchers! And even then those who were left would not falter…

Then, after eleven minutes, the director of the paper factory assumed a businesslike expression and sat down in his seat. And, oh, a miracle took place! Where had the universal, uninhibited, indescribable enthusiasm gone? To a man, everyone else stopped dead and sat down. They had been saved!

The squirrel had been smart enough to jump off his revolving wheel. That, however, was how they discovered who the independent people were. And that was how they went about eliminating them. That same night the factory director was arrested. They easily pasted ten years on him on the pretext of something quite different. But after he had signed Form 206, the final document of the interrogation, his interrogator reminded him:

“Don’t ever be the first to stop applauding.”
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Re: Is White Dominance Exaggerated?

Postby CorruptUser » Wed Jul 23, 2014 12:03 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:Wait, are you claiming that it's the Social Justice movement that's going after pedophiles?

Look, I can't keep discussing this with you until I know what the hell posts you're reading.

I'm not saying pedophilia is one of the issues the SJ movement typically fights against, I just brought them up as a different online community that is way more "poison" than meanieheads ever were.



gmalivuk wrote:No, I'm arguing that meanieheads aren't the worst problem because the problems the SJ movement deals with are so much worse.


They aren't close to the worst problem to have but they are a problem, problems that I've had to deal with. Saying it's a problem that should be ignored because there are worse problems out there is the First World Problems argument. There are times when the FWP argument is justified, like when someone whines that they didn't get the best spot in the restaurant or their antibiotics taste bad. But just because there are worse problems out there doesn't mean the smaller problems aren't the type that could ruin your life. Your argument to me seems comes across as "stop complaining about meaniehead hating you for being the victim of a crime, there are Nazi pedophiles out there right now!"


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