Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

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jseah
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby jseah » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:50 am UTC

Please clarify, what am I equating that is not equal? What other examples are there besides your retaliation one?

By picking of primary values, I mean that we have to choose what we want to impose on others rather carefully. Some things we don't like, but choose not to vapourize people for doing.
Actually, I'm not even sure where I was going with this half of the post anymore. Something about coercing other people into our value system. But I think that is sometimes necessary and can be a good idea, so... I don't what happened to my point anymore.


To back up two posts and attempt to clarify my stance. I'm not working towards " "you can't fight hate with hate" and "you should tolerate my intolerance" territory", I'm working towards a consistent application of ethical rules. Or perhaps just a better understanding of the underlying principles of this issue, where we likely have a disagreement somewhere.

The reason why I dislike social weapons used as enforcement, besides its inaccuracy and inconsistent penalties, is because it is applied as and when people feel like it. No consistency there, anyone who pisses people off can be a target.

Or perhaps the simple moral principle here is "don't piss people off". =D
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jul 07, 2014 1:57 am UTC

jseah wrote:Please clarify, what am I equating that is not equal?
Refusal to hire someone for being gay, and refusing to hire someone for being homophobic.

What other examples are there besides your retaliation one?
The above, plus basically every other bullshit counter to the Brendan Eich thing a few months ago, such as where people tried to say the anti-Eich crowd were all hypocrites because they didn't oppose boycotting Mozilla for "firing" Eich but they would oppose boycotting a company that fired its gay CEO.

It's a stupid argument for the same reason that any argument treating all uses of a particular weapon as equal. Some boycotts are good and others are bad, regardless of what your own primary values happen to be. Just like some uses of firearms are good and others are bad, and some uses of imprisonment are good and others are bad, and on and on and on, for literally every type of "weapon" or retaliation that could possibly exist.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby addams » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:04 am UTC

Yuck.

Don't piss people off?
How exactly is a person supposed to do That?

Has anyone noted the reason we need laws?
Laws rarely bother reasonable people doing reasonable things.

The way I had it explained to me:
Laws set the bar for how Low we can fall.
Laws do not constrain how High we can fly.


It is impossible to not piss off the Mean Girls.
Spoiler:
Don't start with me.
Mean Girls come in Both Genders.


The Mean Girls are looking for a Reason.
Aasop's Fables: The Wolf and the Lamb.

Spoiler:

Once upon a time a Wolf was lapping at a spring on a hillside, when, looking up, what should he see but a Lamb just beginning to drink a little lower down. "There's my supper," thought he, "if only I can find some excuse to seize it." Then he called out to the Lamb, "How dare you muddle the water from which I am drinking?"

"Nay, master, nay," said Lambikin; "if the water be muddy up there, I cannot be the cause of it, for it runs down from you to me."

"Well, then," said the Wolf, "why did you call me bad names this time last year?"

"That cannot be," said the Lamb; "I am only six months old."

"I don't care," snarled the Wolf; "if it was not you it was your father;" and with that he rushed upon the poor little Lamb and ate her all up. But before she died she gasped out:

The Moral of this Aesops Fable:
"Any excuse will serve a tyrant."
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jseah
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby jseah » Mon Jul 07, 2014 7:05 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
jseah wrote:Please clarify, what am I equating that is not equal?
Refusal to hire someone for being gay, and refusing to hire someone for being homophobic.

So, let's say there's a foreign country somewhere that a company which didn't hire someone for the reason that the person was homophobic... and then got boycotted for that reason.
Eg. take that Brendan Eich thing, let's say people started to boycott Mozilla for it.

If you had the ability to do so, would you disallow that protest?

After all, it IS a wrong use of social weapons yeah? We SHOULD disallow it. We don't (or at least not effectively).
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Crissa
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby Crissa » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:24 am UTC

jseah, that's just gibberish.

They can boycott all they want. They can take up signs and march up and down the street.

What they can't do is mistreat their employees, their customers, harass or assault or stalk people. That's not cool.

If you think Liberals will try to force you to sit at someone's lunch counter, you're sorely mistaken.

-Crissa

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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby jseah » Mon Jul 07, 2014 8:49 am UTC

Crissa wrote:What they can't do is mistreat their employees, their customers, harass or assault or stalk people. That's not cool.

Yeah, we have laws on that. That's not a misuse of social weapons because it's not a social weapon at all. It's legal/illegal.


But the other side is that if social weapons can point anywhere and we won't stop it, then how can we say that there are right/wrong uses of social weapons?
I'm not saying that using social weapons on a homophobic guy is wrong. Eich got nuked and I don't really lean either way on that debate. I'm saying that social weapons aren't truly considered right or wrong at all, you just attract flak for whatever you happen to piss people off about. (people say that their use of it is right, but we don't do anything about the wrong ones...)

Could be being homophobic, could be not wearing a veil. It could also be wearing a dress from another culture (which your own uses social weapons on the native members for wearing the native dress!).
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:42 am UTC

So according to your moral system, things that are wrong and things that should be prohibited are one and the same? And so if something isn't prohibited, it must not actually be wrong to do?

I think you'll find that everyone else in favor of a remotely free society would disagree with that position. Something can be bad, but not bad enough to prohibit. Another thing can be worse, but still not as bad as the likely consequences of any law that actually does prohibit it. In those cases you might find that on smaller scales, there are in fact rules (but not laws) against it.

(You seem to be missing the middle: It can be true that social weapons as a category aren't right or wrong, but that doesn't mean the only issue is whether a use of one gets "flak". A particular use absolutely *can* be wrong, without being wrong enough to warrant a rule that disallows it.)
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:00 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
jseah wrote: Because what causes / does not cause offense is vaguely defined.
Fortunately, as usual, the issue is not what causes offense but what causes harm.

Also, though "they started it!" is usually dismissed as childish, it is actually a completely valid point to make. If you punch me in the face because you're a dick and I punch you back because I don't want you to do it again, one of our actions was more justified than the other.

It looks like you really really want to drag this into "you can't fight hate with hate" and "you should tolerate my intolerance" territory, but both of those tropes are no less stupid here than everywhere else.


While this is a fairly clear and reasonable standard for immediate cases of violence, it is less useful in many cultural grievances, because both sides see the other side as to blame for starting it. Who actually 'threw the first punch' may be a matter of distant history, and since there is a lot of subjectivity with regards to the identity of each, what constitutes wrongdoing, and so forth...it's likely that a situation may arise where neither side can clearly be said to have started it.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby jseah » Mon Jul 07, 2014 2:35 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:I think you'll find that everyone else in favor of a remotely free society would disagree with that position. Something can be bad, but not bad enough to prohibit. Another thing can be worse, but still not as bad as the likely consequences of any law that actually does prohibit it. In those cases you might find that on smaller scales, there are in fact rules (but not laws) against it.
But those are due to the "likely consequences". They're still wrong and should be prohibited in an ideal situation, only of course that ideal will never be reached.

It doesn't have to be that restrictive.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby Crissa » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:35 pm UTC

jseah, you do realize that the ethical quandary of right/wrong are not 1:1 with legal/illegal, right?

-Crissa

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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Jul 07, 2014 5:55 pm UTC

jseah wrote:They're still wrong and should be prohibited in an ideal situation
That may be the case for some behaviors, where the reason not to make a law depends on issues of enforceability.

But there are other things that I truly believe people shouldn't do but that they should be allowed to do. Are you honestly saying your system of ethics includes nothing of that sort? I quite frankly don't believe that for a second.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby Tyndmyr » Mon Jul 07, 2014 6:35 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:But there are other things that I truly believe people shouldn't do but that they should be allowed to do. Are you honestly saying your system of ethics includes nothing of that sort? I quite frankly don't believe that for a second.


That is unusual, yes. Most worldviews hold that there is a necessary area of freedom for inadvisable actions that are not TOO harmful. The exact area is subject to disagreement, but it's existence is common, if for no other reason than that it is supremely impractical to ban and enforce EVERY disagreeable action.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby jseah » Mon Jul 07, 2014 11:53 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
jseah wrote:They're still wrong and should be prohibited in an ideal situation
That may be the case for some behaviors, where the reason not to make a law depends on issues of enforceability.

But there are other things that I truly believe people shouldn't do but that they should be allowed to do. Are you honestly saying your system of ethics includes nothing of that sort? I quite frankly don't believe that for a second.

I make a distinction between things people do to themselves and things people do to others.

My statement is true for things that people do to others. People should not be allowed to do actions that are wrong to others.
...
I thought you might have gathered that by the way I said I had no objections other than practicality to the ethics implant? =P


Things people do to themselves, my stance there is that one should avoid bothering or even judging other people. If an action has *below some impact threshold* on others, then they get to do whatever they want. Even this statement is slightly tainted by practical measures (the threshold by which I'd say an action involves only a personal choice), since my reaction to that would be to lower the impact of our actions on each other in order to allow more actions to count as "personal".

Tyndymr: I accept arguments on practical grounds for why certain things can't be prohibited. I don't necessarily accept principles that says they shouldn't be even if they become practical to enforce in the future.


I believe this answers Crissa's response too.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:39 am UTC

All actions affect other people, so you're still in a position where there can be an action that doesn't hurt anyone else "enough" to warrant prohibiting it, but which has an effect on other people all the same.

Plus of course there are actions that help some people and hurt others, or which have some positive or negative short-term impact but a negative or positive long-term one on the same person(s).

Even if we only focus on pure economics, if I'm buying or selling something, any change in price helps some people and hurts others. This is true no matter how small the change. Should all price changes be prohibited? Supposing with perfect information we could pick an optimal price, should any deviation from that then be prohibited?

(It's also worth pointing out that physics as we understand it prohibits perfect information even in theory. Making decisions without it is therefore not a matter of "mere" practicality, but a necessary truth about the universe.)
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby doogly » Tue Jul 08, 2014 2:09 am UTC

This is why I think everyone should have a metaethics chip implanted, so if they start to suggest "right" and "wrong" have meanings outside of their personal preferences they get zapped.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby Tyndmyr » Tue Jul 08, 2014 12:32 pm UTC

jseah wrote:Tyndymr: I accept arguments on practical grounds for why certain things can't be prohibited. I don't necessarily accept principles that says they shouldn't be even if they become practical to enforce in the future.


Without the freedom to "fail", you are not free.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby jseah » Tue Jul 08, 2014 4:31 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:All actions affect other people, so you're still in a position where there can be an action that doesn't hurt anyone else "enough" to warrant prohibiting it, but which has an effect on other people all the same.

Yeah, that is why there is a "below impact threshold" in there. I also noted that this is a practical reason and the solution to allowing more such actions is to lower the impact of those actions.

In other words, no new conclusions.


Tyndmyr: Yeah, we went over that in another thread. I think we disagree...
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Jul 09, 2014 10:19 pm UTC

jseah wrote:They're still wrong and should be prohibited in an ideal situation.

Also, how "ideal" are we talking here? If your ideal world is so perfect that no one routinely does shitty things, then it's not even relavent here.

Edit: In other words, if your magical utopia already prohibits things like homophobia (via an ethics chip or whatever), then it's irrelevant whether or not it would in theory also prohibit the use of social weapons to punish or prevent homophobia.

Here in the real world, though, we don't have chips to automagically prevent bigoted oppressive behavior, and so we must acknowledge that reactions to that behavior might also be ethically justified.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby jseah » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:45 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
jseah wrote:They're still wrong and should be prohibited in an ideal situation.

Also, how "ideal" are we talking here? If your ideal world is so perfect that no one routinely does shitty things, then it's not even relavent here.

It's the principle of the thing. You can't ever get exactly what you want, but you can work towards it and try to make obstacles go away.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jul 10, 2014 12:59 pm UTC

Be that as it may, it is not relevant to a discussion of what to do in a world where homophobi, for example, exists.
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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby 12obin » Tue Nov 04, 2014 2:32 am UTC

Robin, she.

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Re: Cultural Appropriation / Assimilation

Postby addams » Tue Nov 04, 2014 3:14 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:So according to your moral system, things that are wrong and things that should be prohibited are one and the same? And so if something isn't prohibited, it must not actually be wrong to do?

I think you'll find that everyone else in favor of a remotely free society would disagree with that position. Something can be bad, but not bad enough to prohibit. Another thing can be worse, but still not as bad as the likely consequences of any law that actually does prohibit it. In those cases you might find that on smaller scales, there are in fact rules (but not laws) against it.

(You seem to be missing the middle: It can be true that social weapons as a category aren't right or wrong, but that doesn't mean the only issue is whether a use of one gets "flak". A particular use absolutely *can* be wrong, without being wrong enough to warrant a rule that disallows it.)

Sense you brought it up.
I bolded four sentences.

I think those are Hard ideas.
When understood, they are funny ideas.

The difference between a Law and a Rule.
Is it that Rules are voluntary constraints? (sort of?)
Making, Bending and Breaking Rules is Fun!

To Break a Law should take some Real Effort.
I think of most Traffic Laws as Rules.

Those Rules are Flexible.
They have been bent, a lot.

Except in Germany.
Those people are Germanic about Traffic Rules, Traffic Suggestions
and down right indecipherable parking signs.

I think what gmalivuk wrote was profound.
I'm not sure I understand it.

Does it make our world too dangerous,
If we are not constrained by exterior forces?

Some place deep inside,
I still believe...Most people. well...

There are people that don't want to be AssHoles.
It tends to be a Fleeting Mood with those guys.

They don't put the effort into it Required.
Being a Full Time AssHole has Got to be exhausting.

Mr. Jimmy Buffet sings The AssHole Song.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0onivQIbN_c
So far, no one has said better.

oh. excuse me.
Were you having an intellectual conversation?

EDIT:
Oops.
Yes you were.
12obin wrote:http://everydayfeminism.com/2013/09/cultural-exchange-and-cultural-appropriation/

This is my personal gospel on the matter.

That is good.
The links don't work right for me.

Even without the links,
that is interesting.

How to try on being Human with all the possible choices out there?
The Mass Media brings every corner of the world onto a flat screen.

Teenagers are Supposed to try stuff.
Are we expected to grown up?

I supposes that standard might be ok.
Do we have some Role Models that are doing it Right?

One Brother-in-Law is not enough role models.
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