Racism in cultures other than your own

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Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Spambot5546 » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:52 pm UTC

I'm from the US, so I'm not unfamiliar with seeing racism, and I know more-or-less what biases exist here. But I had an interesting experience recently when telling a friend whose family was from India that I'd gotten a new coworker with the same last name as hers, except spelled differently. That is, "Patel" versus "Patil". This instigated a bit of a tirade from her, as she claimed my coworker's spelling indicated he was from southern India and made comments on everything from the darker skin tones of southern Indians to blaming them for the recent problems with sexual assault in India.

I knew enough to recognize this as racism, but I don't know enough about Indian culture or ethnicities to know what prejudices this is based on. It also led me to think about what other instances of prejudice there are out there in cultures I'm not particularly familiar with. In that regard all I know about is instances of racial cleansing I've read about in the news, but I imagine there are plenty of cases of "exotic" racism that aren't genocidal enough to get onto the American news.

So, for those of you more aware than I, or simply those of you from elsewhere in the world, do you know of any examples? Have you experienced any of these yourself?
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Ixtellor » Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:20 pm UTC

I think it gets reported in the US, but Mexico has a lot of racism.
Pretty much a direct correlation with skin color from light to dark.

The racism against black skin isn't even hidden. The english speaking native Mexicans I know freely use the N word. There is a famous cartoon character in Mexico (Negrito?) that looks like a typical U.S. 1940's black face depiction.

I know a lot of Mexican girls/women who won't go out in the sun for fear their skin will darken. Good Hair silky, full versus bad hair kinky is prevelant there.

I imagine there are studies that correlate socio economic status and skin tone.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby davidstarlingm » Wed Dec 18, 2013 8:53 pm UTC

The thing that springs to mind most quickly is not racism per se, but the culture of infantilization fetishism in certain Asian countries (Japan mostly, though it's present in China and elsewhere too).

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Adacore » Thu Dec 19, 2013 1:35 am UTC

I know Korea is very xenophobic and some people, especially the older generation, can be extremely racist. In both Korea and China it's fairly normal to believe that natives from that country should only have relationships with other natives of the country. One of my Korean friends here has a cousin who is married to a white American man, but she kept the relationship secret for years because she knew the family would disapprove. When she revealed it they were furious. Most of them came around eventually, but my friend said one of his older relatives had only agreed to accept the marriage because 'at least her partner isn't black'.

There's still a lot of the 'black people must be from Africa' sentiment here, too. I met up with a group of both foreigners and Koreans last week, and one of the foreigners was a black American, and the Koreans kept asking him where he was from, refusing to believe he was from America, until he eventually said his father's family was from Nigeria just to shut them up. Then there's this cigarette brand which is still prominently advertised in many of the convenience stores here; Korean performers also fairly frequently appear in black face, although I suppose it's debatable (see the Zwarte Piet discussions) whether this is actually very offensive outside of the USA.

Also, I've heard, although not directly from a Korean, that Koreans generally say that white people smell like butter.

It is getting better fairly quickly, though, and a lot of it does just stem from ignorance. The proportion of people of non-East-Asian ethnicity is incredibly low, and most Koreans outside of major cities have probably only seen a white person a handful of times, and have never seen anyone black.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby elasto » Thu Dec 19, 2013 2:37 am UTC

In my experience China is very racist - not just towards foreigners but also internally: Basically, the darker skinned you are the 'lower caste' you are - though they don't have an actual caste system ala India. I suppose the twisted logic is that darker skin implies being part of the rural poor engaged in agricultural labor outdoors. So upwardly-mobile ladies here will walk around with umbrellas to never let their skin see the sun - and skin-whitening products are openly advertised on tv.

They are also quite ambivalent towards the Japanese (for obvious reasons): They respect Japanese brands and tech but have little respect for the Japanese themselves.

Many Chinese view Westerners as of a 'higher caste' even than themselves; Add in China's lack of expansionist ideology and open disdain for interventionist foreign policy and they will never be the threat to the West that the USSR was - despite the nominal 'Communist' label. eg. Look at how well they've managed to walk the tightrope with their governance of Hong Kong: They've had no interest in killing the goose laying golden economic eggs.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 19, 2013 4:37 pm UTC

Perceptions change. I find your worldview decades behind others. First, there's the nationalism movement, which puts domestic pressure on Chinese leaders. They have a preference towards saving face, even if it leads to a subpar(more confrontational) solution. Second, competition for resources. The Chinese are developing neglected countries even before the wake of the Great Recession in order to secure access to natural resources. Coal, oil, copper, food, etc etc it all goes to feeding an energy intensive country. What do you think will happen when someone tries developing the undersea fossil fuels in the contested seas off China? Lastly, economic powerhouse, being the 2nd largest economy is nothing to sneeze at. Just being large exerts a huge influence on international relations. You have to play along or get shut out with anything that involves China, which is a lot. They have a huge market, to buy and sell to, which they routinely use to influence others.

I fear I'm off topic about racism, but nonexpansionist ideology and being against foreign intervention doesn't mean shit. When it's your resources on the line, or your economic/national interests, everything is on the table. Don't believe me? The US has a nonexpansionist ideology too, it doesn't mean we're not a globe spanning empire. Russia is also against foreign intervention...unless it's about their neighbors, then it's a "sphere of influence issue" which doesn't count for some reason.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby elasto » Thu Dec 19, 2013 5:16 pm UTC

sardia wrote:Perceptions change. I find your worldview decades behind others.

Ok... Any basis behind that other than just your opinion? Bear in mind I am married to a Chinese national, live in China and speak to Chinese people daily. What's your credentials?

First, there's the nationalism movement, which puts domestic pressure on Chinese leaders. They have a preference towards saving face, even if it leads to a subpar(more confrontational) solution.

All true. But no different to any other country really.

Second, competition for resources. The Chinese are developing neglected countries even before the wake of the Great Recession in order to secure access to natural resources. Coal, oil, copper, food, etc etc it all goes to feeding an energy intensive country.

All true. But no different to any other country really. The West would do exactly the same if it was sitting on the piles of cash China is.

What do you think will happen when someone tries developing the undersea fossil fuels in the contested seas off China?

It will get resolved amicably. Why? Because the Chinese government holds trillions in US debt and is as dependent upon the West as the West is upon it. A few tens of billions in disputed resources is nothing compared to the losses another world recession would bring.

Lastly, economic powerhouse, being the 2nd largest economy is nothing to sneeze at. Just being large exerts a huge influence on international relations. You have to play along or get shut out with anything that involves China, which is a lot. They have a huge market, to buy and sell to, which they routinely use to influence others.

Of course they will. But they are our biggest trading partners, and we theirs. The influence goes both ways.

I fear I'm off topic about racism, but nonexpansionist ideology and being against foreign intervention doesn't mean shit. When it's your resources on the line, or your economic/national interests, everything is on the table. Don't believe me? The US has a nonexpansionist ideology too, it doesn't mean we're not a globe spanning empire.

The US has a highly expansionist ideology: It has military bases in dozens of foreign countries and has engaged in numerous wars of aggression as well as overt and covert meddling in the politics and leadership of foreign countries. It openly advocates the spreading of its ideology - by force if necessary. China has no interest in doing so and never will.

China has zero interest in any land that historically has not been part of China - eg. Taiwan which it considers to be an ongoing civil war; The West obviously isn't going to see eye to eye on that but, frankly, most Western countries pay only lip service to a right to self-determination anyhow. Just look at Spain.

---

Now, in twenty or thirty years you could be right. Once China has a mature internal market and exports are not so intrinsic to their economy they may throw their weight around more. But, for now, their economy is as fragile and dependent on global markets as ours is. China would no more risk a military confrontation with the US than Europe would. But a crucial difference is China has never and would never consider it a good thing to be 'The World's Policeman'. Many Americans - both citizens and politicians - openly say America being The World's Policeman is a good thing and a worthy goal.

It's a totally different mindset.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby sardia » Thu Dec 19, 2013 7:31 pm UTC

Uh...my credentials are being well read? I mean if you must know there's my Chinese passport, I was born there, my family vacations there yearly, our awkward debates about Chinese interests in the region. Honestly, I don't think getting into the weeds will help you predict the bigger picture all the time. Chinese people are no different from anyone else. They want their jobs, their money, and they want kids. Having a humble mindset doesn't mean anything. I can humbly take your lunch money, and you can amicably thank me for doing business with you. You still got screwed out of your lunch.

The reason I said your view on China as decades behind is that they were more true during the 90s than they are now. Hence, decades old. Your statment mirroed mine, that my view was decades too soon.

Having a fragile economy and immature markets is precisely what makes confrontation with China so dangerous in the first place. With solid economic growth and mature industrial sectors, the leadership in China can afford more dissent. It's much harder to quell dissent if your banks are ladened with bad debt, and people can't find jobs. You're counterarguments is that China is no different from any other country, but it is different in that it won't act like any other country. Having tense relations can lead to conflict even if both sides don't want to start something. For example, the Cuban Missile crisis. Neither side wanted global nuclear war, yet it got dangerously close because of the individual actions of the people on the scene.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby CorruptUser » Thu Dec 19, 2013 11:37 pm UTC

A bit off topic, but most people don't realize how close the Cuban Missile Crisis was to nuclear war. Like, the US had kind of started firing on the Russians and the Russians doing the same close. Like, a single person's decision whether to actually launch a nuke close.

Also, Castro kept some of the nukes.



Back on topic, it will take some time but Asia is improving which to me, is a sign that progress is inevitable. "'Especially' the older generation is racist" can be rewritten as "the younger generations are rejecting racism". Sure, we have to wait while the old bastards hurry up and die, but eventually the world will become more egalitarian. Just as it has in Europe and the US, along with the US's hat.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Diadem » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:13 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:A bit off topic, but most people don't realize how close the Cuban Missile Crisis was to nuclear war. Like, the US had kind of started firing on the Russians and the Russians doing the same close. Like, a single person's decision whether to actually launch a nuke close.

Yeah. It's kind of amazing how popular a US president, who started that crisis, was entirely unreasonable throughout it, and as a result came very, very close to almost destroying the world, is. And not just in the US, here in Europe too. Kennedy probably has more streets named after him over here than anybody else, save royal family members.

Anyway, racism. I don't think there is a lot of racism in The Netherlands. There's a lot of anti-Islamic bigotry, mixed with a strong dose of xenophobia, but I don't think many people care much about race at all. Bigotry is strange, I know people who are perfectly fine with Turks, but hate Moroccans, without being able to tell the difference. Within immigrant communities there's also quite a lot of bigotry, aimed at gays and Jews, and also at Westerners sometimes.

Honestly I think bigotry in humans is about as common as breathing.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby johnie104 » Fri Dec 20, 2013 10:27 am UTC

Here in the Netherlands there is still quite some racism, although not in my particular environment.
There is a politician named Geert Wilders that was recently awarded 'politician of the year' by the general public (A different politician was awarded that award by the votes of the politicians themselves). His major point is that the Islam is threatening dutch culture and that immigration should be put to a stop because it is the source of all our problems. Quite a lot of people have voted for him in the past, so I would see this a sign of racism towards different religion.
He's also of the opinion that we should step out of the European Union, and revert back to our own currency and that we shouldn't give any money to those lazy greeks. Seeing as there is probably a direct corrolation between racism and nationalism, and that he recieved quite a bit of votes, this probably means that quite some people are racist.

There are also the recent incident where a private corporate e-mail was leaked, that an applicant for a job was refused a job primarily because he was black.
And there was an episode on Hollands got Talent, where one of the judges asked a chinese contestant: "Which song are you gonna sing? The number 39 with rice?". This sparked quite a media-shitstorm about wether the judge should apologize (he hasn't so far).
Then there was also the really big discussion about wether Zwarte Piet is racist (I personnally think it isn't, because it isn't meant to be, but then again, I'm white, so I can't really decide that).

Racism has been quite a hot issue here lately.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Ormurinn » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:21 pm UTC

johnie104 wrote:Here in the Netherlands there is still quite some racism, although not in my particular environment.
There is a politician named Geert Wilders that was recently awarded 'politician of the year' by the general public (A different politician was awarded that award by the votes of the politicians themselves). His major point is that the Islam is threatening dutch culture and that immigration should be put to a stop because it is the source of all our problems. Quite a lot of people have voted for him in the past, so I would see this a sign of racism towards different religion.
He's also of the opinion that we should step out of the European Union, and revert back to our own currency and that we shouldn't give any money to those lazy greeks. Seeing as there is probably a direct corrolation between racism and nationalism, and that he recieved quite a bit of votes, this probably means that quite some people are racist.


Karl Popper wrote:If we extend unlimited tolerance even to those who are intolerant, if we are not prepared to defend a tolerant society against the onslaught of the intolerant, then the tolerant will be destroyed, and tolerance with them.


Wilder's argument is that Islam is a uniquely intolerant religion - Theo van Gogh was killed for critiscising Islam, and Wilders himself is the subject of constant death threats. Theres also the Jyllands-posten cartoon debacle and assassination attempts on Salman Rushdie.

He seems to have a point.

Resistance to political Islam (an ideology, not a race) is not the same as racism.

I don't see what eurosceptiscism or desire for financial soverignty has to do with racism either.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Dec 20, 2013 2:43 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:I don't see what eurosceptiscism or desire for financial soverignty has to do with racism either.
If your desire to financially uncouple yourself from a group is justified because of the groups race, it's racist. This should be fairly obvious.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:13 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:Wilder's argument is that Islam is a uniquely intolerant religion - Theo van Gogh was killed for critiscising Islam, and Wilders himself is the subject of constant death threats. Theres also the Jyllands-posten cartoon debacle and assassination attempts on Salman Rushdie.


And Christianity has never been behind mass murders for the crime of either being non-Christian or the wrong type of Christian?

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Ormurinn » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:27 pm UTC

CorruptUser wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:Wilder's argument is that Islam is a uniquely intolerant religion - Theo van Gogh was killed for critiscising Islam, and Wilders himself is the subject of constant death threats. Theres also the Jyllands-posten cartoon debacle and assassination attempts on Salman Rushdie.


And Christianity has never been behind mass murders for the crime of either being non-Christian or the wrong type of Christian?


Oh, it's been responsible for plenty - I'm no christian or christian apologist.

That said, christianity has already had to come to terms with the enlightenment. Blasphemy laws aren't enforced in the west. Europe has learned from the wars of religion, we have religious tolerance today.

How many people have been killed over the last decade in western countries for critiscising christianity?

Izawwlgood wrote:
Ormurinn wrote:I don't see what eurosceptiscism or desire for financial soverignty has to do with racism either.
If your desire to financially uncouple yourself from a group is justified because of the groups race, it's racist. This should be fairly obvious.


And the eurozone is inhabited predominately by people of the same race. It doesn't make any sense to conflate wanting to leave the euro with racism.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby CorruptUser » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:34 pm UTC

Not ALL of Christianity has, even in Europe. The Magdalene Laundries were being run by the Catholic Church until the 1990's, and some of the more religious Swiss communities were sterilizing rape victims until the 80's.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:43 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:And the eurozone is inhabited predominately by people of the same race. It doesn't make any sense to conflate wanting to leave the euro with racism.
I'm pretty lousy at geography and don't know much about Europe in general, but I'm pretty sure you're wrong?

I'm not even following the arguments being made on removing Greece from the Euro; but, and I'm not an economist, based on the my vague recollection of some of the various economic issues of other countries on the Euro, I sure haven't seen much in the way of criticism levied towards, say, Ireland, Iceland, Portugal, France, or Germany.

I think there are probably very valid economic arguments to be made for removing one's country from the Euro, and those arguments can be made based on the poor performance of other specific countries. As long as those arguments aren't couched in racism against that countries inhabitants, it's not racist. As soon as the argument becomes 'those lazy Greeks', it's racist.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Lazar » Fri Dec 20, 2013 3:53 pm UTC


Well I think what Ormurinn is trying to say is that by 19th century racial classification systems like those used by the US Census Bureau (which, of course, are not rooted in science), all of the inhabitants of Europe, except for recent African and Asian immigrants and their children, would be categorized as "white" or Caucasian. But on the other hand, many people have used more restrictive classifications by which Southern and Eastern Europeans aren't considered white. So I suppose it can be debated whether British prejudice against Greeks should be analyzed as racism or merely as xenophobia - in theory, this would depend on whether the prejudice presupposes innate biological reasons for not liking them.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Ormurinn » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:08 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:

Well I think what Ormurinn is trying to say is that by 19th century racial classification systems like those used by the US Census Bureau (which, of course, are not rooted in science), all of the inhabitants of Europe, except for recent African and Asian immigrants and their children, would be categorized as "white" or Caucasian. But on the other hand, many people have used more restrictive classifications by which Southern and Eastern Europeans aren't considered white. So I suppose it can be debated whether British prejudice against Greeks should be analyzed as racism or merely as xenophobia - in theory, this would depend on whether the prejudice presupposes innate biological reasons for not liking them.


Spot on.

I've not noticed any British prejudice against greeks personally, but then we're thankfully not in the eurozone.

I don't think not wanting your country's fund's to be siphoned off to supporting another country is even necesarily xenophobia. I'm not aware of any "those lazy greeks" sentiments - maybe some "the greek govt spent money it didn't have and now it's their problem" sentiments.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:10 pm UTC

Ormurinn wrote:I don't think not wanting your country's fund's to be siphoned off to supporting another country is even necesarily xenophobia. I'm not aware of any "those lazy greeks" sentiments - maybe some "the greek govt spent money it didn't have and now it's their problem" sentiments.
I don't either, which is why I wrote what I wrote three posts above this one.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Djehutynakht » Fri Dec 20, 2013 4:44 pm UTC

elasto wrote:In my experience China is very racist - not just towards foreigners but also internally: Basically, the darker skinned you are the 'lower caste' you are - though they don't have an actual caste system ala India. I suppose the twisted logic is that darker skin implies being part of the rural poor engaged in agricultural labor outdoors.


From what I've heard those in the West of China also have some issues. Not explicitly racial, because it's also the whole separatist movement, but I know race and ethnicity is tied into it in ways.


johnie104 wrote:Then there was also the really big discussion about wether Zwarte Piet is racist (I personnally think it isn't, because it isn't meant to be, but then again, I'm white, so I can't really decide that).


Just because you're white doesn't mean you don't get a say in what's racist or not. That concept in itself is racist.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby davidstarlingm » Fri Dec 20, 2013 6:33 pm UTC

Taking a hard stance against immigration of all Muslims probably isn't a very respectable way to express concerns about Islamic political ideology.

It's a difficult problem. Religious fundamentalism of any kind (I'm thinking Muslim and Christian specifically, but that's only the tip of the iceberg) carries a very real threat of engendering the development of socially destructive groups and organizations. Even theoretically protected religious expression can still be unambiguously contrary to rational public policy. However, any restrictions intended to curb this must make a judgment call about what ideologies have the highest potential for violence, highest potential for extremism, and so forth.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:00 pm UTC

Canada is pretty unfortunately rife with racism. Strangely enough, it's all against either the immigrants OR the indigenous peoples. I've never once seen black/white racial issues... it's all the sort of brown shades in between.

Pretty much anywhere in Canada, the term 'going Indian' means a person not showing up for work the day after being paid, because they spent all their money on booze and drugs and are recovering somewhere.

Classy.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Cleverbeans » Fri Dec 20, 2013 7:26 pm UTC

Mighty Jalapeno wrote:Canada is pretty unfortunately rife with racism.

This has been my experience as well, mostly with Native Americans and Muslims taking the brunt of it these days. There is also a lot of racism towards Americans, especially since the most recent invasion of Iraq.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Djehutynakht » Sat Dec 21, 2013 1:52 am UTC

davidstarlingm wrote:Religious fundamentalism of any kind (I'm thinking Muslim and Christian specifically, but that's only the tip of the iceberg) carries a very real threat of engendering the development of socially destructive groups and organizations.


Don't forget Buddhists.

Buddhists in Myanmar seem to have a near-genocidal hatred of the Rohingya Muslims living there.


It's actually pretty funny (in a grim way) because then you go into the comments, and stereotypes being what they are:

"Wait... peace-loving Buddhists committing acts of violence against those Muslims? Impossible! The Muslims must've egged 'em on real bad!"

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby morriswalters » Sat Dec 21, 2013 2:27 am UTC

Socially destructive groups exist outside of religion. The only commonality is humans. Various sects and divisions in Christendom view each other with distrust. Protestants against Fundamentalists and so on. So if it wasn't skin color it would be something else. Where you come from, your accent, the way you tie your shoes, political affiliation, what have you. We create herds. And your herd isn't my herd, so you must be stupid, smell, and be poor and lazy.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby addams » Sat Dec 21, 2013 6:51 am UTC

What a bunch of reasonable level headed posters you people are.
If only....
If only you...

yes. isms cause a great deal of suffering.
We are hardwired for compare and contrast.

It takes a little time to get to know a person and learn to dislike them on their own merits.
We are all in a big hurry. We don't have time to waste getting to know people.

Besides, if all other examples of Tea Baggers were fucking infuriating, why bother getting to know This one?

When not dangerous and harmful, racism is funny.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby CorruptUser » Sat Dec 21, 2013 8:46 pm UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:
davidstarlingm wrote:Religious fundamentalism of any kind (I'm thinking Muslim and Christian specifically, but that's only the tip of the iceberg) carries a very real threat of engendering the development of socially destructive groups and organizations.


Don't forget Buddhists.

Buddhists in Myanmar seem to have a near-genocidal hatred of the Rohingya Muslims living there.


It's actually pretty funny (in a grim way) because then you go into the comments, and stereotypes being what they are:

"Wait... peace-loving Buddhists committing acts of violence against those Muslims? Impossible! The Muslims must've egged 'em on real bad!"


I almost hate the way that Buddhists have managed to create this public image of being nothing but pacifists. Despite the fact that we fought a Buddhist nation (Imperial Japan) that had murdered tens of millions of Asians.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Sat Dec 21, 2013 10:40 pm UTC

Good thing all Christian nations really ARE pacifists!

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby jseah » Sun Dec 22, 2013 1:42 am UTC

CorruptUser wrote:I almost hate the way that Buddhists have managed to create this public image of being nothing but pacifists. Despite the fact that we fought a Buddhist nation (Imperial Japan) that had murdered tens of millions of Asians.

Maybe quote some wars in China and India?
I thought Japan is Shinto or some strange blend of religions (especially since I don't think Shinto or Buddhism or Taoism prevents adherents from having another so you can find people in Japan and China having multiple).

Their Buddhism certainly isn't the same as the Chinese or Tibetan one.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Derek » Sun Dec 22, 2013 2:45 am UTC

Traditional Japanese religion is syncretic Shinto/Buddhist.

On the topic of Japan, they are also quite xenophobic.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby addams » Sun Dec 22, 2013 3:11 am UTC

Yes. They are.
Whatever that means.

How hard is it to understand?
I was attempting to think about being Japanese, today.

I can't. I have had it explained. (shrug)
I will never be Japanese.

It sure means a lot to some Japanese.
I know it does. I have to take their word on it.

To live in a monoculture. Well? To be inside a monoculture?
I do live in a Monoculture or I do Not live in a Monoculture. I don't know.

Is the US a monoculture? Are all Americans alike?

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby eSOANEM » Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:27 am UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:
johnie104 wrote:Then there was also the really big discussion about wether Zwarte Piet is racist (I personnally think it isn't, because it isn't meant to be, but then again, I'm white, so I can't really decide that).


Just because you're white doesn't mean you don't get a say in what's racist or not. That concept in itself is racist.


Except that, as a member of a privileged group, it is highly likely that johnie104 (this isn't intended to single johnie104 out, they just happen to be the obvious example) would be blind to certain issues affecting marginalised groups and so may not be able to draw an accurate conclusion. The degree to which someone's privilege makes them blind to certain issues varies a lot from person to person (and it is, of course, possible to improve) but it is very important to bear in mind that, whilst they may contribute thoughts, those thoughts may be based on experiences which do not generalise to members of marginalised groups and so the conclusions they reach may be inaccurate; as such, when there's a discussion about whether something is *ist, it is very important that members of privileged groups do not jump in and say "no it isn't", take advantage of their more powerful voices and therefore "win" but rather that they listen to the marginalised group's experiences and consider those rationally without jumping to "this does not match my experience, they are wrong" type conclusions.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:00 am UTC

jseah wrote:
CorruptUser wrote:I almost hate the way that Buddhists have managed to create this public image of being nothing but pacifists. Despite the fact that we fought a Buddhist nation (Imperial Japan) that had murdered tens of millions of Asians.

Maybe quote some wars in China and India?
I thought Japan is Shinto or some strange blend of religions (especially since I don't think Shinto or Buddhism or Taoism prevents adherents from having another so you can find people in Japan and China having multiple).

Their Buddhism certainly isn't the same as the Chinese or Tibetan one.


Are you arguing that the Japanese aren't truly Scottish?

I brought up Japan because the US fought a bloody war with Japan, with Pearl Harbor and the Bataan Death March and so forth. Most people in the US don't grok the various wars within India and China because it never directly affected them.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby addams » Mon Dec 23, 2013 3:25 am UTC

Who cares what 'most' Americans grok?

The idea that the histories of other nations are not of interest or are incomprehensible to Americans is a kind of Racism.
It might be the kind of racism that says, "Not our kind. We don't know that. We don't do that."

It is not a Racism that exerts pressure from Outside, but from Inside.

I remember, Way back in the US Black/White Civil Rights Fight.
There was an important portion of the community that lifted from within.

If Americans can't know and care about anything outside the US...well (wtf?)
Have we, Americans, earned the bad reputation we have? oh.

How does a nation live down a bad reputation?
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Djehutynakht » Mon Dec 23, 2013 6:39 am UTC

eSOANEM wrote:
Djehutynakht wrote:
johnie104 wrote:Then there was also the really big discussion about wether Zwarte Piet is racist (I personnally think it isn't, because it isn't meant to be, but then again, I'm white, so I can't really decide that).


Just because you're white doesn't mean you don't get a say in what's racist or not. That concept in itself is racist.


Except that, as a member of a privileged group, it is highly likely that johnie104 (this isn't intended to single johnie104 out, they just happen to be the obvious example) would be blind to certain issues affecting marginalised groups and so may not be able to draw an accurate conclusion. The degree to which someone's privilege makes them blind to certain issues varies a lot from person to person (and it is, of course, possible to improve) but it is very important to bear in mind that, whilst they may contribute thoughts, those thoughts may be based on experiences which do not generalise to members of marginalised groups and so the conclusions they reach may be inaccurate; as such, when there's a discussion about whether something is *ist, it is very important that members of privileged groups do not jump in and say "no it isn't", take advantage of their more powerful voices and therefore "win" but rather that they listen to the marginalised group's experiences and consider those rationally without jumping to "this does not match my experience, they are wrong" type conclusions.



True, true. But just as the assumed-privileged almost definitely has a view bias whereas they are blind to some issues and not able to make a fair judgment themselves, those who are assumed-underprivileged or affected or discriminated against or etc. very often have a bias of themselves which may also lead to them drawing an unfair or inaccurate conclusion.

In the end, it's most often inaccurate to say particular groups do or do not have an authority to pass correct judgment in information in which multiple are involved. A lot of different dialogue is required and in truth what is often the "truth" is often subjective to opinion.

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby addams » Mon Dec 23, 2013 7:00 am UTC

yep. And; Sometimes we, just, don't like each other.
It is not evidence of racism. It is evidence of good taste.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby johnie104 » Mon Dec 23, 2013 12:08 pm UTC

Djehutynakht wrote:
eSOANEM wrote:
Djehutynakht wrote:
johnie104 wrote:Then there was also the really big discussion about wether Zwarte Piet is racist (I personnally think it isn't, because it isn't meant to be, but then again, I'm white, so I can't really decide that).


Just because you're white doesn't mean you don't get a say in what's racist or not. That concept in itself is racist.


Except that, as a member of a privileged group, it is highly likely that johnie104 (this isn't intended to single johnie104 out, they just happen to be the obvious example) would be blind to certain issues affecting marginalised groups and so may not be able to draw an accurate conclusion. The degree to which someone's privilege makes them blind to certain issues varies a lot from person to person (and it is, of course, possible to improve) but it is very important to bear in mind that, whilst they may contribute thoughts, those thoughts may be based on experiences which do not generalise to members of marginalised groups and so the conclusions they reach may be inaccurate; as such, when there's a discussion about whether something is *ist, it is very important that members of privileged groups do not jump in and say "no it isn't", take advantage of their more powerful voices and therefore "win" but rather that they listen to the marginalised group's experiences and consider those rationally without jumping to "this does not match my experience, they are wrong" type conclusions.



True, true. But just as the assumed-privileged almost definitely has a view bias whereas they are blind to some issues and not able to make a fair judgment themselves, those who are assumed-underprivileged or affected or discriminated against or etc. very often have a bias of themselves which may also lead to them drawing an unfair or inaccurate conclusion.

In the end, it's most often inaccurate to say particular groups do or do not have an authority to pass correct judgment in information in which multiple are involved. A lot of different dialogue is required and in truth what is often the "truth" is often subjective to opinion.


Let me explain myself: A lot of my friends (who are also white) say it isn't racist, because "I don't think it is intended to be racist", which I think too. But if it were racist it would be racist towards black people, so there is a very distinct possibility that while white people don't see it as racist, it might still feel racist to black people.
What I meant with my statement, is that I'm in no position to say "You as a black person shouldn't think this is racism, because I don't think it is meant to be racist". So eSOANEM was essentially correct about my motivation.

So, in my view, even if it isn't meant to be racist, and all the non-black people don't think it is racist, but a majority of black people think it is racist, then it probably still is racist (I use black people here as the minority group, because the discussion was about Zwarte Piet). Alternatively, you could educate the people that are offended to why it isn't racist, but this kinda feels like victim blaming.
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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby Djehutynakht » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:14 pm UTC

Well I still think it depends. I still think it requires dialogue. While it may look racist on the face, for instance, if one was to explain its heritage, like we did...somewhere, then the matter becomes less... black and white (to put it that way).

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Re: Racism in cultures other than your own

Postby CorruptUser » Mon Dec 23, 2013 5:15 pm UTC

addams wrote:Who cares what 'most' Americans grok?


Because my complaint is that 'most' Americans (and most in 'The West') view Buddhism as a religion of Nonviolent Hippies, despite having been in bloody wars with Buddhists. That Buddhists have successfully managed to market themselves as a bunch of philosophical peaceniks in spite of all the evidence that they are just as bloody as Christianity and Islam.


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