1166: "Argument"

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Max™
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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby Max™ » Tue Feb 12, 2013 1:57 am UTC

webgiant wrote:
Max™ wrote:
webgiant wrote:I think this goes to show why most climate-change deniers are in science fields completely unrelated to climate change: you can be an incredibly smart expert in one science field, and still believe pseudoscience about another scientific field.

Couldn't that just as easily be applied the other way? Setting aside, y'know, experts in fields related to the climate who don't buy the anthropogenic hypothesis... there are an awful lot of climate-change undeniers (a dumb word made dumberer!) with no scientific background whatsoever.

It's interesting that you chose the example of a teacher confused by things like the thermodynamic limits on a lightbulb powering itself with a solar panel as someone "smart in one field but dumb in another" before making your climate change example, but that discussion is far better suited for the "is it possible to have a rational discussion on global warming" thread.

The first half of my point is still quite true: most climate change deniers are in science fields completely unrelated to climate change, which means, at best, most climate change deniers are not climate experts.

Considering the vast majority of people who believe the "climate change undeniers" aren't in any science field whatsoever...
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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby mikem » Sat Feb 16, 2013 12:05 am UTC

The first corollary of Godwin's law implies that the discussion thread cannot continue in perpetuity. With probability one, someone will eventually invoke a reference to Nazis or Hitler. At which point the thread ends.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby Pfhorrest » Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:14 am UTC

Just because one party has lost the debate (by invoking Godwin) doesn't necessarily stop the thread from continuing. People may continue thrashing words back and forth ad nauseum even if someone has already resorted to an ad nazium.

EDIT: for -> forth
Last edited by Pfhorrest on Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:28 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby mishka » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:07 am UTC

mikem wrote:The first corollary of Godwin's law implies that the discussion thread cannot continue in perpetuity. With probability one, someone will eventually invoke a reference to Nazis or Hitler. At which point the thread ends.

Actually, a perpetual motion machine could be devised by which it is fueled by hatred of Hitler.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby brenok » Sat Feb 16, 2013 2:43 am UTC

mishka wrote:
mikem wrote:The first corollary of Godwin's law implies that the discussion thread cannot continue in perpetuity. With probability one, someone will eventually invoke a reference to Nazis or Hitler. At which point the thread ends.

Actually, a perpetual motion machine could be devised by which it is fueled by hatred of Hitler.


According to the Second Law of Godwinamics, Hitler's hatred will always tend to an equilibrium in any isolated system, if given enough time, becoming a no more hated personality than any other historical leader, like Caesar or Khan.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Feb 16, 2013 4:43 am UTC

brenok wrote:
mishka wrote:
mikem wrote:The first corollary of Godwin's law implies that the discussion thread cannot continue in perpetuity. With probability one, someone will eventually invoke a reference to Nazis or Hitler. At which point the thread ends.

Actually, a perpetual motion machine could be devised by which it is fueled by hatred of Hitler.


According to the Second Law of Godwinamics, Hitler's hatred will always tend to an equilibrium in any isolated system, if given enough time, becoming a no more hated personality than any other historical leader, like Caesar or Khan.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby addams » Mon Feb 18, 2013 4:35 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
brenok wrote:
mishka wrote:
mikem wrote:The first corollary of Godwin's law implies that the discussion thread cannot continue in perpetuity. With probability one, someone will eventually invoke a reference to Nazis or Hitler. At which point the thread ends.

Actually, a perpetual motion machine could be devised by which it is fueled by hatred of Hitler.


According to the Second Law of Godwinamics, Hitler's hatred will always tend to an equilibrium in any isolated system, if given enough time, becoming a no more hated personality than any other historical leader, like Caesar or Khan.

Image


Oh, Dear; That is true.
Quick! Start another argument.
Or; We could argue the point.

Caesar is not so bad. A fair salad dressing came of it.
Besides, it seems like a good name.
I forget. What was wrong with that man?

Bruits? Who was in the Right there?
eww. Murder your friend on stage and you will live like a King for the rest of your life.
eww. You argue it.

It could be a weird argument. Make it ably to the world, today.

The common people today have the tastes and luxuries of the Royals of the past.
Not much to argue about, there.
The statement is too broad to argue with.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

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Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby bmonk » Tue Feb 19, 2013 4:47 pm UTC

addams wrote:. . .
Caesar is not so bad. A fair salad dressing came of it.
Besides, it seems like a good name.
I forget. What was wrong with that man?


Caesar was hated and feared because he never lost an election, never gave up until he could win--and they feared he might become king if he wanted, and he seemed to want to. He was "dictator in perpetuity", and at his death had held that post for four years and counting. Including 46 BC, which lasted 15 months.

Part of the problem was that the politics at the time were so polarized--between the "Optimates" (think of the aristocrats) and the "Populars" (think the champions of the common folk) that the two sides could agree on almost nothing. Sound familiar?

Unfortunately, getting rid of Julius Caesar just reignited the Civil Wars that had been going on, more or less, on and off, for about 50 years until Caesar ended them. This new round of wars ended with Augustus taking over after 14 more years, and ending the Republic in all but name.

So you could argue it wasn't Caesar that was so bad--they got him before he could really make his program show in its full colors--but the situation, and the fallout.
Having become a Wizard on n.p. 2183, the Yellow Piggy retroactively appointed his honorable self a Temporal Wizardly Piggy on n.p.1488, not to be effective until n.p. 2183, thereby avoiding a partial temporal paradox. Since he couldn't afford two philosophical PhDs to rule on the title.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby addams » Fri Feb 22, 2013 12:00 am UTC

bmonk wrote:
addams wrote:. . .
Caesar is not so bad. A fair salad dressing came of it.
Besides, it seems like a good name.
I forget. What was wrong with that man?


Caesar was hated and feared because he never lost an election, never gave up until he could win--and they feared he might become king if he wanted, and he seemed to want to. He was "dictator in perpetuity", and at his death had held that post for four years and counting. Including 46 BC, which lasted 15 months.

Part of the problem was that the politics at the time were so polarized--between the "Optimates" (think of the aristocrats) and the "Populars" (think the champions of the common folk) that the two sides could agree on almost nothing. Sound familiar?

Unfortunately, getting rid of Julius Caesar just reignited the Civil Wars that had been going on, more or less, on and off, for about 50 years until Caesar ended them. This new round of wars ended with Augustus taking over after 14 more years, and ending the Republic in all but name.

So you could argue it wasn't Caesar that was so bad--they got him before he could really make his program show in its full colors--but the situation, and the fallout.

See?! History is stupid!
It is gossip about people that have been dead for more than two thousand years.

Were you told about the Lead in the pipes? I was.
We may have been interested in different parts of history.

I liked the story about Lead in the pipes. One story said, The People were crazy from heavy metal poisoning.
Not only were they unable to process sensory data reliably, after a generation or two the people were Retarded from before birth.

That is the way some people tell The Fall of Rome. You don't have to like it. I do.
What a mess. Letters and books and old stories.

All roads lead to Rome? Sure. What did people that made it in and made it back out again say?
Those people are nuts? So, funny. I think of a small city full of Mad Hatters with none of the cleanliness Disney is famous for.

The Royals? You typed 15 years? There was no hand on the helm for fifteen years?
I have no idea. That is politics.

Walking into Rome on the day Caesar died would be a bad thing to do, if you can not walk back out, again.
Don't drink the water.

Rumor also has it that Rome was using enough water to keep the pipes flushed.
The lead pipes had nothing to do with The Fall of Rome.

Empires go up. Empires go down.
I like stories about Rome. I don't want to GO there.

I live in a world that is very different from the one Caesar lived in.

How could one person have an effect on an entire city? Back then. How?
Rumors? Bloody spectacles? Yuck. Life was cheep? Even Caesar's?

Maybe, I don't want to know.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Feb 22, 2013 10:46 am UTC

addams wrote:How could one person have an effect on an entire city? Back then. How?
Rumors? Bloody spectacles? Yuck. Life was cheep? Even Caesar's?


How can one pebble start an avalanche? How can one butterfly start a tornado?

Better ask how can they not have an effect.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby Klear » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:59 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
addams wrote:How could one person have an effect on an entire city? Back then. How?
Rumors? Bloody spectacles? Yuck. Life was cheep? Even Caesar's?


How can one pebble start an avalanche? How can one butterfly start a tornado?

Better ask how can they not have an effect.


I think it was a rhetorical question. Dunno, though. Frankly, my head always begins to hurt when I read addams' posts.
Though today it's just a hangover.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby addams » Fri Feb 22, 2013 4:25 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
addams wrote:How could one person have an effect on an entire city? Back then. How?
Rumors? Bloody spectacles? Yuck. Life was cheep? Even Caesar's?


How can one pebble start an avalanche? How can one butterfly start a tornado?

Better ask how can they not have an effect.

I agree with your thesis. "Everything is connected."

Yet; History is written as if, Caesar's life somehow had More effect.

Fast foreword to today. Dick Cheney is on TV in 2013.
Thousands and Thousands of people see him and some of them believe every word is The Gospel.

In 500 something B.C.E. What? Caesar's voice was heard by What? Tens of people?
For those folks to hear him, he would have had to yell.

We have been using sound bites a long time.
We, the people of the 21st century, have the ability to have reasonable conversations that the Common Man can hear.

The Common Man has lost the ability to understand reasonable conversations?

Spoiler:
Sometimes I get all moody about Dicky Boy being on TV everyday saying horrible things.
Caesar did not have such power.

The current president is not allowed so much air time.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Feb 22, 2013 8:33 pm UTC

A century after Caesar, the Colosseum seated 50,000 spectators. A speaker is such circumstances would expect to have their words heard by all.

In the Bible, at a similar time, 5,000 were considered remarkable not in that so many went to hear Jesus speak, but that so many were fed from so little.

When you lack electric amplification, other means serve - the natural acoustic of an amphitheatre; the simple aid of a megaphone (or a cupped pair of hands); those with long ears and faithful mimicry repeating the message from afar to those nearby. Even simple practice at hearing and being heard...

Caesars words, heard first by thousands might spread within hours to every corner of the city; within weeks to every corner of the Empire. And with less distortion than a soundbite makes of complex matter.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby bmonk » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:05 pm UTC

addams wrote:. . .

Were you told about the Lead in the pipes? I was.
We may have been interested in different parts of history.

I liked the story about Lead in the pipes. One story said, The People were crazy from heavy metal poisoning.
Not only were they unable to process sensory data reliably, after a generation or two the people were Retarded from before birth.

That is the way some people tell The Fall of Rome. You don't have to like it. I do.
What a mess. Letters and books and old stories.

. . .

Rumor also has it that Rome was using enough water to keep the pipes flushed.
The lead pipes had nothing to do with The Fall of Rome.

Empires go up. Empires go down.
I like stories about Rome. I don't want to GO there.


I think that the lead poisoning was more from a couple of other sources: wine cups made of lead or pewter, if the wine stood a while. Even more, they used lead (II) acetate, called "sugar of lead" as an artificial sweetener. Not good.
Having become a Wizard on n.p. 2183, the Yellow Piggy retroactively appointed his honorable self a Temporal Wizardly Piggy on n.p.1488, not to be effective until n.p. 2183, thereby avoiding a partial temporal paradox. Since he couldn't afford two philosophical PhDs to rule on the title.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby bmonk » Fri Feb 22, 2013 11:10 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
addams wrote:How could one person have an effect on an entire city? Back then. How?
Rumors? Bloody spectacles? Yuck. Life was cheep? Even Caesar's?


How can one pebble start an avalanche? How can one butterfly start a tornado?

Better ask how can they not have an effect.

I recall reading about the death of Genghis Khan, something to the effect that, "The death of this one man saved Europe, if not from conquest, at least from a vigorous pillaging. Marxist doctrine notwithstanding, one man can change history."
Having become a Wizard on n.p. 2183, the Yellow Piggy retroactively appointed his honorable self a Temporal Wizardly Piggy on n.p.1488, not to be effective until n.p. 2183, thereby avoiding a partial temporal paradox. Since he couldn't afford two philosophical PhDs to rule on the title.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby addams » Sat Feb 23, 2013 5:27 am UTC

bmonk wrote:
addams wrote:. . .

Were you told about the Lead in the pipes? I was.
We may have been interested in different parts of history.

I liked the story about Lead in the pipes. One story said, The People were crazy from heavy metal poisoning.
Not only were they unable to process sensory data reliably, after a generation or two the people were Retarded from before birth.

That is the way some people tell The Fall of Rome. You don't have to like it. I do.
What a mess. Letters and books and old stories.

. . .

Rumor also has it that Rome was using enough water to keep the pipes flushed.
The lead pipes had nothing to do with The Fall of Rome.

Empires go up. Empires go down.
I like stories about Rome. I don't want to GO there.


I think that the lead poisoning was more from a couple of other sources: wine cups made of lead or pewter, if the wine stood a while. Even more, they used lead (II) acetate, called "sugar of lead" as an artificial sweetener. Not good.

We can laugh about heavy metal poisoning. Right?
Those people have been dead a long time.

It is interesting to me. Adults get over it, usually.
If they don't do something fatal while tripping on lead.

So; Are you thumbs up or thumbs down on Rome as a city limping along with greater than 60% Mad Hatters?
That is on someday 450 B.C.E., not today.

If people that can hear every word and read a transcript of every word misunderstand every other word;
Then, how could Caesar's words be transmitted throughout the Realm undistorted? How?
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby runeks » Fri Mar 22, 2013 8:25 am UTC

Icalasari wrote:Well, found <snip>

This whole thing is making me wonder how he actually got each device to work (other than the train as that one was hardly perpetual motion). The YouTube comments say that the flask has a pump hooked up to it

[...]

An ad was displayed before I could watch that video. Now I think I see the point of perpetual motion videos on YouTube (perpetual ad revenue?).

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Re: 1166: "Argument"

Postby addams » Mon Mar 25, 2013 5:58 pm UTC

Argument?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Newton's_cradle

Remember those things.
The way to win an argument was to set one in motion.
In some circles.

New Argument. Right?
Spoiler:
It could take days to understand all of that all over again.
Wonderful to have around with other people.
It is a toy. How do people play?

Mean? Are all people mean under a thin veneer of civility?
It seems so. I am not sure.

Arguments are a way for some people to show they care.
Do you care about perpetual motion?
How could anyone care about perpetual motion? Why?

Are there perpetual motion machines? Sure.
Little Boys and Girls. Some of those people are moving, even in their sleep.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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