1146: "Honest"

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webgiant
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby webgiant » Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:23 am UTC

Center Frame. On a T-shirt. Will constantly sell out.

squonk wrote:If you're too honest, people will think you have Asperger's. Or even that you're autistic.


And if you then say "but I know I'm a brilliant programmer", they'll hire you on the spot.

J Thomas
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby J Thomas » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:09 am UTC

Klear wrote:
addams wrote:y"If you can't be with the one you love, love the one your with."
Your well being may depend on it.
(Shrug.) Or, not.


What if I'm alone? =(


Love yourself.
The Law of Fives is true. I see it everywhere I look for it.

rmsgrey
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby rmsgrey » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:04 pm UTC

Dryhad wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Dryhad wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Which brings us back to my original point - what your suggested answer gave as reasons for loving the questioner are not reasons for loving someone. Reasons for being in a relationship with someone, sure, but not for loving them.

They can be reasons for both. And my point was that they don't conflict with Heinlein's definition at all. The question was, after all "why do you love me?" not "what is the mechanism by which you feel love for me?" You have assumed an interpretation that Rotherian did not use.


"I'm partially disabled, getting fat, and I'm no longer young, so my prospects are rather limited." - therefore I love you. That is the reasoning presented. That's like saying "I eat soup because the sky is blue"...

Either Rotherian loves everyone in the whole world, or his "honest" answer is incomplete - there's nothing in that answer that relates to the individual(s) he loves, so the reason is equally valid when applied to anyone he could love...

There's nothing in that answer that supports your interpretation either. You are clearly content with inferring a "and I don't care if you're happy", so why not the (in my mind obvious) implication of "and you're the best I could get". Note that this does not necessarily conflict with Heinlein's definition, it's perfectly consistent for one to base one's happiness on that of the closest available person for want of other options. By a strict reading of Heinlein, this is technically love.

If you have to infer anything to make it a satisfactory answer, then it is incomplete.

I reiterate - "I love you because my prospects are rather limited" is not sound reasoning unless the speaker loves everyone

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Klear
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby Klear » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:17 pm UTC

Also, if you bring dictionary definitions to prove you know what is love, you're doing it wrong. You need a collection of poems for that.

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boXd
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby boXd » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:51 pm UTC

Klear wrote:Also, if you bring dictionary definitions to prove you know what is love, you're doing it wrong. You need a collection of poems for that.


I like to think movie tickets work much better.

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Klear
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby Klear » Sun Dec 16, 2012 1:55 pm UTC

boXd wrote:
Klear wrote:Also, if you bring dictionary definitions to prove you know what is love, you're doing it wrong. You need a collection of poems for that.


I like to think movie tickets work much better.


Eh... is some cases, but there's quite a few movies that can do more harm than good in this regard. I'm quite old-fashioned, though.

J Thomas
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby J Thomas » Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:20 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:I reiterate - "I love you because my prospects are rather limited" is not sound reasoning unless the speaker loves everyone


It's an entirely different way of thinking.

If you want to love people, you can do that. You can love anybody in the world you know about, and you don't need their permission at all. Limited prospects have nothing to do with it.

This other thing is like a relationship, or a contract. It's like, say I want somebody who'll pretend to be my friend. So I agree I'll pretend to be their friend too. We'll pretend we are monogamous. I won't humiliate them by sleeping with their best friend unless they humiliate me. We'll live together and share expenses.

Say I want that relationship with a woman who's so conventionally beautiful she can get whatever boyfriend she wants. And she has a lot more money than I do. Etc. Why would she settle for me when she can get somebody who's a lot better in every way she cares about? So I have to settle for the best woman who'll have me. Somebody who's willing to settle for me, even when they know I don't want them that much but I'm willing to settle.

Independent of all that sadness, you can love every woman you meet as intensely as you can, and nobody will object provided they don't notice you're doing it.
The Law of Fives is true. I see it everywhere I look for it.

Rotherian
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby Rotherian » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:17 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Dryhad wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Dryhad wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Which brings us back to my original point - what your suggested answer gave as reasons for loving the questioner are not reasons for loving someone. Reasons for being in a relationship with someone, sure, but not for loving them.

They can be reasons for both. And my point was that they don't conflict with Heinlein's definition at all. The question was, after all "why do you love me?" not "what is the mechanism by which you feel love for me?" You have assumed an interpretation that Rotherian did not use.


"I'm partially disabled, getting fat, and I'm no longer young, so my prospects are rather limited." - therefore I love you. That is the reasoning presented. That's like saying "I eat soup because the sky is blue"...

Either Rotherian loves everyone in the whole world, or his "honest" answer is incomplete - there's nothing in that answer that relates to the individual(s) he loves, so the reason is equally valid when applied to anyone he could love...

There's nothing in that answer that supports your interpretation either. You are clearly content with inferring a "and I don't care if you're happy", so why not the (in my mind obvious) implication of "and you're the best I could get". Note that this does not necessarily conflict with Heinlein's definition, it's perfectly consistent for one to base one's happiness on that of the closest available person for want of other options. By a strict reading of Heinlein, this is technically love.

If you have to infer anything to make it a satisfactory answer, then it is incomplete.

I reiterate - "I love you because my prospects are rather limited" is not sound reasoning unless the speaker loves everyone


I do love everyone, I just love some more than others. :mrgreen:

(And there are few people I like. Most of my blood relatives aren't even in the like category.) :shock:

My wife, I love her and like her. Maybe I should have been more specific when giving my examples. So here is the amended version:

Q: "Why do you love me?"
A: "Honestly, because you love me despite the following facts: I'm partially disabled, I'm getting fat, and I'm no longer young. Additionally, my prospects are rather limited because of those aforementioned facts, so there is little motivation for me to seek someone else."

Is that acceptable to everyone?

Can we get on with our lives now?

Will rmsgrey find someone to express opinions about?

Honestly, I don't care.

Regardless, any further attempt to psychoanalize my relationship will be met with a polite request for that person to piss off. Have a nice day.
There are two general categories of opinion: regular opinions and informed opinions.
Please do not argue with me unless your opinion falls into the latter category.
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J Thomas
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby J Thomas » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:56 am UTC

Rotherian wrote:Regardless, any further attempt to psychoanalize my relationship will be met with a polite request for that person to piss off. Have a nice day.


Not intending any insult to you, but purely in a spirit of pedantry....

There is no polite way to request someone to piss off.

If you think you have found a way to do it, then what you are doing is in fact something else. Because if it is not impolite then it is not a request to piss off.
The Law of Fives is true. I see it everywhere I look for it.

Rotherian
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby Rotherian » Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:14 am UTC

J Thomas wrote:
Rotherian wrote:Regardless, any further attempt to psychoanalize my relationship will be met with a polite request for that person to piss off. Have a nice day.


Not intending any insult to you, but purely in a spirit of pedantry....

There is no polite way to request someone to piss off.

If you think you have found a way to do it, then what you are doing is in fact something else. Because if it is not impolite then it is not a request to piss off.



I was thinking something along the lines of this: "You are cordially invited to piss off...please." :mrgreen:

Because, honestly, that is about the extent of my politeness.
There are two general categories of opinion: regular opinions and informed opinions.
Please do not argue with me unless your opinion falls into the latter category.
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addams
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby addams » Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:33 am UTC

That was a very polite, Piss off.

Well done.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

arthurd006_5
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby arthurd006_5 » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:09 am UTC

TimXCampbell wrote:... But there's nothing to stop us from being honest with ourselves, always, except the counter-force of the memetic load...

Hmmmm...
It's a social load as well. If I stop practicing the conventional dishonesties, then I may be unable to perform them on demand, to avoid being punished by my flatmates/friends/partners/etc.

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Red Hal
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby Red Hal » Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:14 am UTC

"Please continue to psychoanalyze my relationship, I'm sure we'll have a great time", followed by a fixed stare. <- That is a polite way you can tell someone to piss off.
Lost Greatest Silent Baby X Y Z. "There is no one who loves pain itself, who seeks after it and wants to have it, simply because it is pain..."

rmsgrey
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:06 am UTC

Red Hal wrote:"Please continue to psychoanalyze my relationship, I'm sure we'll have a great time", followed by a fixed stare. <- That is a polite way you can tell someone to piss off.

Works significantly better in meat-space than in cyber-space - plain text tends to drop nuances like that...

CapsSkins
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby CapsSkins » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:46 am UTC

This comic hits home....

I spent high school more or less confident in who I was and my picture of the world. I got to college, had a few transformative experiences and realized my previous way of thinking was so narrow, biased and wrong. But in the process of gaining perspective I lost my grip on my identity and in the midst of drifting without any understanding or confidence in anything I believe I've become a dim shell of my previous popular, charismatic self. The front is ingrained and people around me still buy it, so on the surface things look great. But when the spotlight is off and the only company is the face staring back at me in the mirror I've never felt so isolated, alienated, insignificant and unattractive in my life. Oh well...things could be a lot worse.

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addams
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby addams » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:37 pm UTC

CapsSkins wrote:This comic hits home....

I spent high school more or less confident in who I was and my picture of the world. I got to college, had a few transformative experiences and realized my previous way of thinking was so narrow, biased and wrong. But in the process of gaining perspective I lost my grip on my identity and in the midst of drifting without any understanding or confidence in anything I believe I've become a dim shell of my previous popular, charismatic self. The front is ingrained and people around me still buy it, so on the surface things look great. But when the spotlight is off and the only company is the face staring back at me in the mirror I've never felt so isolated, alienated, insignificant and unattractive in my life. Oh well...things could be a lot worse.


Yes. Things can always get worse.
From here things can get a Hell of a lot better.

What shook your world? How could you be narrow, biased and wrong, then?
You are not Narrow, Biased and Wrong, now?

Of course, you are.
Less than, before.
More than you will be.

Isolated, Alienated, Insignificant and Unattractive? That is quite the list.
Excuse me while I chuckle.

Ok. On the up side; The internet does not have smellovision, yet.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.

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Klear
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby Klear » Sat Feb 16, 2013 7:48 pm UTC

CapsSkins wrote:This comic hits home....

I spent high school more or less confident in who I was and my picture of the world. I got to college, had a few transformative experiences and realized my previous way of thinking was so narrow, biased and wrong. But in the process of gaining perspective I lost my grip on my identity and in the midst of drifting without any understanding or confidence in anything I believe I've become a dim shell of my previous popular, charismatic self. The front is ingrained and people around me still buy it, so on the surface things look great. But when the spotlight is off and the only company is the face staring back at me in the mirror I've never felt so isolated, alienated, insignificant and unattractive in my life. Oh well...things could be a lot worse.


I guess that's what growing up feels like. I'm dreading the day I'll know what getting old means. But I guess I still have to go through mid-life crisis before that happens, so at least there's some buffer.

CapsSkins
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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby CapsSkins » Sat Feb 16, 2013 10:43 pm UTC

addams wrote:
CapsSkins wrote:This comic hits home....

I spent high school more or less confident in who I was and my picture of the world. I got to college, had a few transformative experiences and realized my previous way of thinking was so narrow, biased and wrong. But in the process of gaining perspective I lost my grip on my identity and in the midst of drifting without any understanding or confidence in anything I believe I've become a dim shell of my previous popular, charismatic self. The front is ingrained and people around me still buy it, so on the surface things look great. But when the spotlight is off and the only company is the face staring back at me in the mirror I've never felt so isolated, alienated, insignificant and unattractive in my life. Oh well...things could be a lot worse.


Yes. Things can always get worse.
From here things can get a Hell of a lot better.

What shook your world? How could you be narrow, biased and wrong, then?
You are not Narrow, Biased and Wrong, now?

Of course, you are.
Less than, before.
More than you will be.

Isolated, Alienated, Insignificant and Unattractive? That is quite the list.
Excuse me while I chuckle.

Ok. On the up side; The internet does not have smellovision, yet.


Hahaha man, so my post was definitely written in a bad spell. I'm way more level-headed (and happy) usually, but in the middle of those bad spells those words don't seem so hyperbolic or bombastic. Upside, at least I'm not a Browns fan.


Edit: But in the spirit of the comic, it is a bit refreshing to broadcast a more distressed side of yourself that you'd normally cover up. Especially when everyone seems so airbrushed and auto-tuned, so despite how cringe-worthy my original post is to read now, I'm in some ways glad I posted it when I did.

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Re: 1146: "Honest"

Postby addams » Sun Feb 17, 2013 2:56 am UTC

CapsSkins wrote:
addams wrote:
CapsSkins wrote:This comic hits home....

I spent high school more or less confident in who I was and my picture of the world. I got to college, had a few transformative experiences and realized my previous way of thinking was so narrow, biased and wrong. But in the process of gaining perspective I lost my grip on my identity and in the midst of drifting without any understanding or confidence in anything I believe I've become a dim shell of my previous popular, charismatic self. The front is ingrained and people around me still buy it, so on the surface things look great. But when the spotlight is off and the only company is the face staring back at me in the mirror I've never felt so isolated, alienated, insignificant and unattractive in my life. Oh well...things could be a lot worse.


Yes. Things can always get worse.
From here things can get a Hell of a lot better.

What shook your world? How could you be narrow, biased and wrong, then?
You are not Narrow, Biased and Wrong, now?

Of course, you are.
Less than, before.
More than you will be.

Isolated, Alienated, Insignificant and Unattractive? That is quite the list.
Excuse me while I chuckle.

Ok. On the up side; The internet does not have smellovision, yet.


Hahaha man, so my post was definitely written in a bad spell. I'm way more level-headed (and happy) usually, but in the middle of those bad spells those words don't seem so hyperbolic or bombastic. Upside, at least I'm not a Browns fan.


Edit: But in the spirit of the comic, it is a bit refreshing to broadcast a more distressed side of yourself that you'd normally cover up. Especially when everyone seems so airbrushed and auto-tuned, so despite how cringe-worthy my original post is to read now, I'm in some ways glad I posted it when I did.

Good. Me, too.

That is the topic. Why do we hide our feelings?
Because? We know one another to be Black Hats?

Somethings are so frightening, even Black Hat Guy needs someone to hold his hand.
We all do. ok; Most of us do.

I don't care how smart you are; There are some things we can not think our way out of. Because! The Assholes are, just, as smart and having a lot more fun.
Life is, just, an exchange of electrons; It is up to us to give it meaning.

We are all in The Gutter.
Some of us see The Gutter.
Some of us see The Stars.
by mr. Oscar Wilde.

Those that want to Know; Know.
Those that do not Know; Don't tell them.
They do terrible things to people that Tell Them.


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