0703: "Honor Societies"

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Jeff Carr
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Jeff Carr » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:35 pm UTC

"Tautology Club" is the 7th most popular search on Google in the past hour. :-)

nanotube
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby nanotube » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:51 pm UTC

Zach515 wrote:And you know there is already a bunch of physicists who are ready to join this club: [url]http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anthropic_principal[/url]


hey, i think it's a good thing that most principals are anthropic. would be quite a mess if we had a bunch of giraffes as principals. i mean, for one, we'd have to massively rearchitect all the schools...

what i find even funnier is that on wikipedia "anthropic principal" actually does redirect to "anthropic principle". what, they think it's not important to have a separate article about school principals who happen to be human? for shame!

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby jc » Wed Feb 17, 2010 4:56 pm UTC

Exerci wrote:A tautology is a sentence or a statement that is, no matter what extraneous circumstances, true. Example: "Either it's raining... or it's not" No matter if it rains or not, this sentence is true.

Actually, the traditional definitions of "tautology" requires a bit more than just being trivially true. Most definitions require that what you're claiming be somewhat masked by varying the terminology enough that your audience will (mostly) not notice what you've done.

A common example in recent times is the repeated claim by the anti-evolution crowd that evolution is a tautology, because it merely states that the critters who are alive are the descendants of the earlier critters who produced offspring. This, of course, is a bogus criticism, because it focuses on a minor detail of the evolutionary process, and ignores the most important parts of the theory (variation and selection).

But the observation that we're alive because our parents survived long enough to have children is indeed a tautology. This isn't just because it's trivially true. It's a tautology mostly because of the rephrasing of the two parts to mask the fact that they say the same thing.

(Actually, this is the "rhetorical" definition of tautology, which is the older definition. There's also the "logical" tautology, which is closer to "X or not X". But that is normally just used when the two Xs are formally different enough that the identity isn't obvious to people without the necessary reasoning ability. And it's more often used for statements of the form "X -> Y", where X and Y look different but are equivalent expressions.)

NikolaiSmith
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby NikolaiSmith » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:03 pm UTC

There are now at least five different "Tautology Club" sites on Facebook. The largest has over 1000 members.

But "The Group of People Who Are Not Members of This Group" has only eight members. That's probably eight more than the number who actually qualify.

Lasher
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Lasher » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:06 pm UTC

If you join The Tautology Club in Last.fm you will be a member of The Tautology Club in Last.fm :D
http://www.last.fm/group/Tautology+Club

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby mootinator » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:06 pm UTC

NikolaiSmith wrote:There are now at least five different "Tautology Club" sites on Facebook. The largest has over 1000 members.

But "The Group of People Who Are Not Members of This Group" has only eight members. That's probably eight more than the number who actually qualify.


Actually, the number of qualified members is n-8 where n is the number of people who exist.

z3ncat
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby z3ncat » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:27 pm UTC

Editer wrote:Jason Fox, third from left.

Foxtrot honors XKCD, XKCD honors Foxtrot.

Duban
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Duban » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:36 pm UTC

The number of people in tautology club that understand tautology is the number of people in tautology club minus the number of people in tautology club that do not understand tautology.

If you agree with my suggestions for the rules of tautology club then you do not disagree with my suggestions for tautology club.

1) The first rule of tautology club implies the second rule of tautology club
2) The second rule of tautology club implies the first rule of tautology club
((Q-->R) * (R-->Q)) <--> (R<-->Q)

3)The third rule of tautology club implies fourth rule of tautology club
4)Either the third rule of tautology club is false or the fourth rule of tautology club is true.
(Q-->R) <--> (Q' v R)

5)The fith rule of tautology club implies the 6th rule of tautology club
6) The fact that the 5th rule of tautology club is false implies that the 6th rule of tautology club is also wrong.
(P --> Q) <--> (Q' --> P')

7) Either the 7th rule of tautology club is true or the 8th rule of tautology club is true
8) If the 7th rule of tautology club is false it implies that the 8th rule of tautology club is true.
(P v Q) <--> (P' --> Q)

9) The 9th rule of tautology club implies that both the 9th rule and the 10th rule are correct.
10) The idea that "rule 9 implies rule 10 is false" is always incorrect.
(P ^ Q) <--> (P --> Q')'

I love boolean logic because boolean logic has everything to make me love it but nothing to stop me from loving it.
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abucknam
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby abucknam » Wed Feb 17, 2010 5:50 pm UTC

You can find the group on Facebook here: http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=3 ... 123&ref=mf

DVC
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby DVC » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:07 pm UTC

I don't think Randall has the essence of tautology quite right:

tau⋅tol⋅o⋅gy  /tɔˈtɒlədʒi/ Show Spelled Pronunciation [taw-tol-uh-jee] Show IPA
–noun, plural -gies. 1. needless repetition of an idea, esp. in words other than those of the immediate context, without imparting additional force or clearness, as in “widow woman.”
2. an instance of such repetition.
3. Logic. a. a compound propositional form all of whose instances are true, as “A or not A.”
b. an instance of such a form, as “This candidate will win or will not win.”

Technical Ben
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Technical Ben » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:08 pm UTC

For all of those saying "this is a myblogspace groub with 1000 people in it"... why not just make a "this is a group with no one in it, because the group has no members." Then it instantly references it's self. Much easier (but you all get smaller egos).
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Duban » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:25 pm UTC

Technical Ben wrote:For all of those saying "this is a myblogspace groub with 1000 people in it"... why not just make a "this is a group with no one in it, because the group has no members." Then it instantly references it's self. Much easier (but you all get smaller egos).

Wouldn't that be a contradiction club that doesn't contradict iself.
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dummy account
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby dummy account » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:32 pm UTC

I once started dating a girl over a tautology. Ah, the springtime of youth... I remember it like it was yesterday (it wasn't, though, so this isn't a tautology).

DVC wrote:I don't think Randall has the essence of tautology quite right


No, he does.

Statements of the form "If p then p" are tautological because those types of statements (cool kids call them "material implications") are equivalent to "Not p or p".

Statements of the form "A is A" are tautological because they can be reduced to either "if x is A then x is A" or "x is A and x is A", which is another type of tautology.
Last edited by dummy account on Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:39 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

ecshafer
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby ecshafer » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:39 pm UTC

I dislike honor societies, I would much rather just let my achievements show my worth, not some group that shows I had some achievements. That is why in high school I never joined any honor society, and in college I refuse to join the honors fraternity or any of that bs. Feynman says some pretty funny and interesting stuff on the subject too that I really enjoyed.

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby eviloatmeal » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:49 pm UTC

Just wanted to post to let you know, y'know?
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby DVC » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:50 pm UTC

dummy account wrote:I once started dating a girl over a tautology. Ah, the springtime of youth... I remember it like it was yesterday (it wasn't, though, so this isn't a tautology).

DVC wrote:I don't think Randall has the essence of tautology quite right


No, he does.

Statements of the form "If p then p" are tautological because those types of statements (cool kids call them "material implications") are equivalent to "Not p or p".

Statements of the form "A is A" are tautological because they can be reduced to either "if x is A then x is A" or "x is A and x is A", which is another type of tautology.


Ok... can you show me how "If p then p" is equivalent to "Not p or p"?

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby makc » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:53 pm UTC

DVC wrote:can you show me how "If p then p" is equivalent to "Not p or p"?

Code: Select all

p                if p then p              not p or p
true                 true                    true
false                true                    true

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby makc » Wed Feb 17, 2010 6:56 pm UTC

moreover,

Code: Select all

a           b         if a then b     not a or b
true    true             true            true
true    false            false           false
false   true             true            true
false   false            true            true
if a = b = p you get the above.

pensive bosom
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby pensive bosom » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:06 pm UTC

Of course, it's controversial whether the english "if... then..." is semantically equivalent to the material conditional, so it's understandable that the equivalence might not be apparent to someone who hasn't had the characteristic truth-tables for the operators of sentential logic drilled into them.
Last edited by pensive bosom on Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:31 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

mutterc
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby mutterc » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:25 pm UTC

I think a Solipsists Club would be more interesting.

project2051
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby project2051 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 7:44 pm UTC

mutterc wrote:I think a Solipsists Club would be more interesting.


Yeah, but the membership numbers never seem to go very high.

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Mikeski » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:03 pm UTC

Steroid wrote:The Tautology Club are the mortal enemies of The Contradiction Club! As a member of the latter, I say Go Tautology Club! (I'm not the president, so I'm in charge.)
After 3 pages of tautologies, this totally burned my cheese.

project2051 wrote:
mutterc wrote:I think a Solipsists Club would be more interesting.
Yeah, but the membership numbers never seem to go very high.
What do you mean? Membership is only limited by your my imagination!

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Sprocket » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:04 pm UTC

mutterc wrote:I think a Solipsists Club would be more interesting.
I see what you did there. Therefore I am. But I'm still not sure you are.
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dragoneye776
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby dragoneye776 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:32 pm UTC

Look at the edit war that's going on in Wikipedia.

http://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?tit ... on=history

It's locked now.

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby -.Mateo.- » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:34 pm UTC

I think, therefore I think.

I'm sure years from know, the legendary wars of wikipedia will be taught at schools. And the xkcdian will be known as the bravest of all
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toastmasteralpha
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby toastmasteralpha » Wed Feb 17, 2010 8:58 pm UTC

Ahh, yes. The joke that is the National Honor Society and the unwarranted prestige that it brings. I remember how I first joined my school's NHS. I left my extensive application at home the day it was due. Luckily, one of the girls in my study hall agreed to skip class with me to go get it. As we climbed into her car, she lit a cigarette and drove off. I got the papers, turned them in, and was promptly accepted. I would have enjoyed the dishonorable nature of my application process even more if I hadn't lost the presidential election (probably shouldn't have wrote my speech in German class two hours before the vote), but I at least did get to give a speech at the following year's induction ceremony.

tl, dr: I brag about how I skipped class to get my NHS application and turn it in, exaggerating my bad-assery.

Realpra
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Realpra » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:17 pm UTC

Who can answer this, is the following a tautology:

"The x'th rule of tautolgy club is that the tautology club exists."?

Spoiler:
if(p){
return true
}else{
return null
}

Lasher
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Lasher » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:26 pm UTC

The store is in need of official "Tautology Club" T-Shirts.

VinnyLonga
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby VinnyLonga » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:37 pm UTC

mootinator wrote:
NikolaiSmith wrote:There are now at least five different "Tautology Club" sites on Facebook. The largest has over 1000 members.

But "The Group of People Who Are Not Members of This Group" has only eight members. That's probably eight more than the number who actually qualify.


Actually, the number of qualified members is n-8 where n is the number of people who exist.


Except n would be N.


On another note, I'm starting a teleology club, because a teleology club has to be formed (and because Talcott Parsons started the tautology club in the late 30s). The first rule of the teleology club is that the teleology club must have rules.

pensive bosom
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby pensive bosom » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:51 pm UTC

The first rule of Deontology Club is that one must adhere to the rules of Deontology Club.

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby rtwpsom2 » Wed Feb 17, 2010 9:55 pm UTC

Editer wrote:Jason Fox, third from left.


Bill Amend agrees.

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arbivark
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby arbivark » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:24 pm UTC

mutterc wrote:I think a Solipsists Club would be more interesting.


I had come here to post a mention that card carrying membership in any tautology club (tcc) will get you a 20% discount at this years solipcist's convention.
Last year I was busy and didn't go, I wonder how it went.

tesseraktik
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby tesseraktik » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:24 pm UTC

Kind of a "Get out of my head, Randall!"-moment for me:

A while back, I joined the Facebook page "I bet this shite insect can get more fans than Nick Griffin". I don't really like making political statements on Facebook, but I found the page's description rather amusing.
A while later, a Swedish page called " Kan den här lyktstolpen få fler fans än Mona Sahlin?" ("Can this lamppost get more fans than Mona Sahlin?") emerged (Mona Sahlin being the leader of the Swedish Social Democrats). Now, I'm not too fond of her, and I am quite fond of lampposts (as they are very useful in real life and make fun props/characters in stories), but I didn't join because 1) it would come across as a political statement and 2) it was a cheap rip-off that had clearly been thrown together in about five minutes. Couldn't they at least have written a witty description of the page?
Shortly thereafter, the page "Kan den här soptunnan få fler fans än Fredrik Reinfeldt?" ("Can this trashcan get more fans than Fredrik Reinfeldt?", Fredrik Reinfeldt being the leader of the Moderates and current Prime Minister of Sweden) was created; yet another rip-off with no effort behind it.
Of course, more groups would follow, each with less effort behind it than the next. I did join one, actually: "Kan den här lyktstolpen få fler fans än den andra lyktstolpen?" ("Can this lamppost get more fans than the other lamppost?"); there wasn't much to that group than its title, either, but at least the title was slightly amusing.

To cut to the chase: I created my own Facebook page called "Kan det här USB-minnet få lika många fans som det här USB-minnet?" ("Can this USB memory stick get as many fans as this USB memory stick?")
Very little effort went into the making of that page, too, but I thought somebody should make it, just for the sheer pointlessness of it all.
The page has two fans; mission accomplished!

Edit: In formal logic, I only ever use the word "tautology" to refer to statements of the type "(A→B∧A)→B"; it's useful when rounding up certain mathematical proofs.
Last edited by tesseraktik on Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:07 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:43 pm UTC

Outchanter wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:
-.Mateo.- wrote:Rules of Tautology club

1) This is the first rule of Tautology Club.

2) This isn't.

3) Gold is golden, but silence is quiet. When you're tired of talking about tautologies, you don't want to talk about them anymore.

4) Only two tautologies to a couplet.

5) Only one tautology per tautology.

6) If you don't wear shirts, you can't wear a Tautology Club shirt.

7) If you can't shorten the tautology, you'll need more words.

8) If this is your first night at Tautology Club, you haven't been here before.

Fixed

Fixed again.


You clearly have never read or seen Fight Club.

dean.menezes
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby dean.menezes » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:49 pm UTC

If you school has two different honor societies and you're in both does that make you twice as honorable? And then you can write on your university application about how you're honorable like Brutus and they should admit you instead of all the other dishonorable people.

Long cat is long, and tautology cat is tautological.

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Pedromdrp » Wed Feb 17, 2010 10:57 pm UTC

I don't know if anyone has spotted this but...

"If 1,000,000 people join this group, it will have 1,000,000 people in it."

Is not a tautology! Because people can leave the group after joining it. So a million people can join the group and it might not have a million people in it.

If it is not always true, then it is not a tautology ;)

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Eebster the Great
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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:06 pm UTC

Pedromdrp wrote:I don't know if anyone has spotted this but...

"If 1,000,000 people join this group, it will have 1,000,000 people in it."

Is not a tautology! Because people can leave the group after joining it. So a million people can join the group and it might not have a million people in it.

If it is not always true, then it is not a tautology ;)


The honor club isn't tautological, either. While it would be silly, honor could conceivably come from joining designated clubs called "honor clubs." Therefore, joining the honor club could literally make you honorable, and the reason you should do this is to prove it to colleges. It would be a little like saying, "You should join basketball to prove to colleges that you are a good athlete," except much more ridiculous.

Also, all honor clubs are supposed to be exclusive, so the reason you are honorable is not that you are in the club, but that you have accomplished whatever is necessary to gain access to the club. In reality, of course, many honor clubs are far from this, and basically serve no purpose whatsoever.

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby SirMustapha » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:07 pm UTC

Pedromdrp wrote:I don't know if anyone has spotted this but...

"If 1,000,000 people join this group, it will have 1,000,000 people in it."

Is not a tautology! Because people can leave the group after joining it. So a million people can join the group and it might not have a million people in it.


That's not even the actual reason why it's not a tautology. "1,000,000 people join this group" and "[this group] will have 1,000,000 people in it" are NOT the same proposition. The phrase is actually a theorem. I find it worrying that such a banal mistake came from a supposed scientist. Randall pulled off an Alanis Morrissette in that comic. Isn't it ironic?

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby Pedromdrp » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:13 pm UTC

They don't have to be the same proposition as long they are always true ;)

Let me give you an example: p OR not P => T (which is the same as if T then (P OR NOT P)

A tautology is a formula which is always true, or in other words, a formula whose negation is unsatisfiable...

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Re: Honor Societies

Postby tesseraktik » Wed Feb 17, 2010 11:20 pm UTC

SirMustapha wrote:
Pedromdrp wrote:I don't know if anyone has spotted this but...

"If 1,000,000 people join this group, it will have 1,000,000 people in it."

Is not a tautology! Because people can leave the group after joining it. So a million people can join the group and it might not have a million people in it.


That's not even the actual reason why it's not a tautology. "1,000,000 people join this group" and "[this group] will have 1,000,000 people in it" are NOT the same proposition. The phrase is actually a theorem. I find it worrying that such a banal mistake came from a supposed scientist. Randall pulled off an Alanis Morrissette in that comic. Isn't it ironic?
I'd say it's a tautology in the Facebook system, where "If 1,000,000 people join this group..." is interpreted as "At some point after this group's member count exceeds 1,000,000 people..."
ni'o mi nelci le zirpu sovmabrnornitorinku
Spoiler:
++$_ wrote:What's a "degree"?

EDIT: I looked it up on Wikipedia. Apparently it's some ancient Babylonian unit for angles :/


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