0619: "Supported Features"

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Krid
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Krid » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:21 pm UTC

suso wrote:What the hell Randall? Its not the fault of community developers for not supporting flash stuff, its Adobe.


There's plenty of blame to go around. Yes Adobe's proprietary Flash plugin for Linux is fairly crappy, and yes Adobe is completely unhelpful to people trying to code an open-source alternative, but Randall hit the nail on the head about Linux kernel developers.

Linux kernel developers are coding the kernel so it will be better for server use, and optimizing it for those tasks at the expense of desktop usability. This is even more severe a problem when significant design decisions are made, as server work always wins out.
I'm sure you're aware about the task scheduler debacle awhile back, but that's far from the only conflict going on.

I've long since determined that the only way for Linux to be viable on the desktop market is for desktop-minded developers to fork the kernel and do some serious reworking.

suso wrote:They have been extremely slow in getting things like a native 64-bit flash plugin for Linux and I'm tired of waiting for them. Meanwhile, community developers have time to do other things like support 4096 processors. And the new version of Blender (2.5) is going to kick ass.


There's a proprietary 64bit flash10 plugin available now. It's not too bad, but sadly it's not a trivial task to get it working.
The community developers are a bit like ferrets. They keep getting distracted by shiny things that aren't terribly useful.
Blender isn't related to the kernel. It isn't even *nix-specific.
If "community development time" was some sort of magical substance that could be applied anywhere, I'd rather it go towards making the Linux-native Firefox faster than running the Windows Firefox through Wine. (And fixing the memory leaks, and maybe culling some bloat, and streamlining some of the kludgier pieces of code...)

grim4593 wrote:Maybe that is one of the reasons Linux has such a great system back-end. Since there is no point trying to waste time on flashy GUI's and hardware accelerated doodads they developed stability and great functionality.


Yet here we have Compiz, which is probably the flashiest GUI outside of a Hollywood set.
Hardware acceleration is a wonderful thing, but it needs to be used more intelligently. For example, nearly every AMD and NVidia card currently on the market currently has GPGPU support, and video chips are the undisputed kings of low-precision floating point processing. A flash implementation that used that GPU power would be FAR faster, smoother, and have a much smaller CPU footprint.
*checks* Oh, hey, turns out that Adobe and nVidia are working on that right now. All they need to do now is get AMD and Intel on board and they'll have around 99% of the market.

10nitro wrote:
dasada122 wrote:Well, someone had to say it...
If Linux is going to slay the BEAST, they need to start at the bottom features.

What, you mean like stability, consistency, and having a complete operating system out-of-the-box, rather than having to add dozens of 3rd party apps to make a complete OS.


Yea, ok, I think you missed a few things...
First, very little of GNU would actually count as the OS proper. The OS itself is the bare minimum required for the system to boot and execute independent code. Even important tools like fsck aren't a part of the OS.
Second, you need to have a defined vendor for "3rd party" to have a meaning. Further, you need to determine if you're going by who provided it and did QA, or who wrote it. If you're considering Ubuntu to be the first-party product, then Open Office would be classed as first-party. If you're classifying the kernel itself as the first-party product, then would be 3rd party. (Yea, open source can make things like that really confusing.)
Third, Microsoft has been reviled for "bundling", and has been sued several times for including extra first party software. If you were one of the many who opposed that bundling, you're now both a hypocrite and kind of a dick.

As far as consistency goes, Microsoft wins there. Every windows install is roughly the same as every other windows install of that version. Different Linux distros don't have that.

10nitro wrote:
dasada122 wrote:It irked me to see 5 different ways to alt tab in KDE 4, but none that worked well.

See, that's your problem, you're using KDE... GNOME `just works'.


Yea, see, this is neither helpful nor topical. Take it somewhere else before you get somebody going on vi versus emacs, as that would mandate that I kidney punch you.

boshi wrote:Randal, have you tried making sure that your CPU frequency scaling isn't failing to clock for flash? There is a handy widget for that in the default ubuntu installation of gnome that will show realtime scaling info.


This is a known issue with Adobe Flash under Linux, but your attempt to help is most certainly appreciated.

3n1gm4 wrote:This is what I do:

  • Start buffering and put the video in pause (even in HD) and wait until it has been downloaded
  • $ vlc --fullscreen /tmp/Flash*

Try to do this on windows THAT easy.


Windows:
*Click the video's "play" button, as flashplayer works in Windows.

If you wanted to play it with vlc in Windows then you could do basically same thing, but the path would probably be a bit longer and you'd wildcard it differently.

Greg02
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Greg02 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:27 pm UTC

waltwhitmanheadedbat wrote:
Greg02 wrote:
SirMustapha wrote:WOW, did Randall poke the hornet's nest with this one. Poke? Hell, he SMASHED his fist straight into the middle of the hornet's nest. And am I ever glad he did so!
[snip]


It's pretty idiotic to blame the guy who built your house for the lawn not being mowed. You blame your gardener for that. This comic doesn't attack the whole system, saying that the Linux distributions haven't reached maturity due to lack of full screen flash. No, it goes and blames the kernel developers for working on 'fringe issues' rather than a problem that has absolutely nothing to do with them, that if they ever started working on it, then something is wrong because it's a stupid idea to put flash support in the kernel.


I think it's supposed to be a little ironic - you know most of the heavy development, and the only development that can really be considered 'linux' by everyone, is in the kernel. You hear about kernel patches...work on flash support, not so much.


That's because Flash is a closed format in which the official version works well enough for most people, resulting in a rather small team working on the difficult task of reverse engineering a video format.

Willl
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Willl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 2:46 pm UTC

Hmm, strange, nobody's said it yet...

MY INTEL CARD AND I

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lu6cifer
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby lu6cifer » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:00 pm UTC

Willl wrote:Hmm, strange, nobody's said it yet...

MY INTEL CARD AND I


FFFFFFFFFUUUUUUUUUUUU! Get out of my head!
I was just about to login to say that.

And what's this about no full screen flash support? Works fine here, with KDE4 and an Nvidia card.
lu6cifer wrote:"Derive" in place of "differentiate" is even worse.

doogly wrote:I'm partial to "throw some d's on that bitch."

Willl
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Willl » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:12 pm UTC

By the way, I think what people here are missing is that the comic is not a direct jibe at the kernel developers, more at the state of Linux and perhaps by proxy those who advocate its adoption.

It's all very well saying it's not a particular group's fault, that it's a closed platform. But if something's not usable it's worthless.

Going back to the lawnmower, yes you can blame the builder for your lawn if he neglected to build an entrance to the garden. Perhaps in fact there's a patent or an economic barrier to building garden gates. You still can't blame the gardener.

The worst that Randall might be arguing here is that there should be fewer kernel developers and more developers working on bridging proprietary gaps. But as others have pointed out, the main existing Linux market isn't people who watch the Daily Show. And unless end user Linux changes, nor will it ever be.

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neoliminal
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby neoliminal » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:21 pm UTC

"There are 4,0% kinds of people in this world: Those that can read hand written comics and those that need blambot.com."


So, like, way to start a holy war in the forums Randal. For the record:
  • Linux != BSD != MacOS != XP
  • "1024 CPUs should be enough for anyone." -- Bill Gates
  • Jon Stewart is a comic book character AND a comedy show host.
  • You don't need Flash to work on linux to watch Jon Stewart on cable. Works in full screen mode.
  • God doesn't exist.
  • You are all nazies (grammar, not fascist).
  • Yah, sex.
  • Emacs and vi should be friends... but nano rules.
  • Your lawn sucks, mine is concrete and never needs mowing. (Also it doesn't crash or need restarts.)
  • (insert something really insulting to you personally.)
Last edited by neoliminal on Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:52 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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cyberblade
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby cyberblade » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:33 pm UTC

Huh... while I definitely hate flash, and have it blocked by default on all my machines (ff+noscript) I have to say it works best in Linux for me... On my MacBook or my Windows boxes watching flash videos always leads to huge memory leaks and needing to restart the browser-I've been so annoyed at it that I've even tried with the native browsers (Safari and IE respectively) but have found the same issues on each system.

Meagen
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Meagen » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:38 pm UTC

SirMustapha wrote: It would be nice if the attitude of the community was to say "well, yeah, the Flash support in Linux is poor for these and those reasons, and for now your best option is to either choose Windows or Mac OS or wait until we manage to work it out". It's simple.


Attempting to speak a sentence with these words will cause anyone in the Linux community to spontaneously choke on their own spittle and die. Trufax.

cyberblade
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby cyberblade » Wed Aug 05, 2009 3:55 pm UTC

Meagen wrote:
SirMustapha wrote: It would be nice if the attitude of the community was to say "well, yeah, the Flash support in Linux is poor for these and those reasons, and for now your best option is to either choose Windows or Mac OS or wait until we manage to work it out". It's simple.


Attempting to speak a sentence with these words will cause anyone in the Linux community to spontaneously choke on their own spittle and die. Trufax.


True... just reading those words made me choke and splutter...

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SirMustapha
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby SirMustapha » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:03 pm UTC

Meagen wrote:
SirMustapha wrote: It would be nice if the attitude of the community was to say "well, yeah, the Flash support in Linux is poor for these and those reasons, and for now your best option is to either choose Windows or Mac OS or wait until we manage to work it out". It's simple.


Attempting to speak a sentence with these words will cause anyone in the Linux community to spontaneously choke on their own spittle and die. Trufax.


And that's exactly what I'm complaining about. Up there Willl said:

But as others have pointed out, the main existing Linux market isn't people who watch the Daily Show. And unless end user Linux changes, nor will it ever be.


That is, in one hand, the Linux community say that choosing Windows over Linux is A HORRIBLE SIN EVERYONE SHOULD DIE, but on the other hand people say that Linux is only for the awesome guys and is hardly ever going to change. So, if you're a guy who thinks it's absolutely laughable when someone says "oh, you want to change your screen resolution? Just open vi and edit /etc/X11/xorg.conf, stuff these lines of completely obscure and esoteric computer lingo and reset your X server. See? Try to do it THAT easily on Windows!", you're basically condemned to dwell forever on Windows Hell and GOD FORBID you say you don't use Linux because it doesn't do what you want. In short, you can never win.

Like I said above, computing nowadays isn't an "elite" thing anymore. There are regular folks in their home who like to watch TV, listen to the pop music stations on the radio and read their e-mail on their personal desktop machines. If you think Linux should keep on alienating THOSE users, then there's no way to even conceive it will ever win the battle against Windows. Say, you want a personal example of mine? I have never been able to get gapless MP3 playback on Linux. I've searched a lot for help on this, tried several different programs and options, and I even read that Amarok already solved that problem. The result? I can't even listen to FLAC files gaplessly on Linux -- yep, FLAC, the lossless format that DOESN'T HAVE SPACERS. On Windows? Yep, a little nifty Winamp plugin solves ALL my problems almost like a miracle. See? It works. It does what I want. Maybe the folks will think that gapless playback is some useless luxury item, but, heck, I like it. Windows (ok, actually, a proprietary software written for Windows) has it. Linux doesn't. What's the problem with admitting that? It's a simple fact of life: if I want gapless playback, my best option is to move back to Windows. Period. And seriously, now, reading this thread, I'm seriously considering doing just that.

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phillipsjk
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby phillipsjk » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:10 pm UTC

Game_boy wrote:There's nothing the community can do about Flash. Gnash and Swfdec are short of developers not through lack of interest but because Adobe will sue anyone who works on a project if they've ever agreed to the Flash EULA (yes, that's right, the developers can never have used or installed Flash at any time in their life).

Get Youtube etc. to offer <video> support as an alternative, preferably Theora.


I'm not optimistic that it will happen. The reason flash "video" is so popular is that the "content" industry has been sold on the idea of allowing users to view video without downloading it. I even see Flash games advertised as "No download required!" I guess downloading doesn't count if it happens automatically in the background.

Flash video is more or a binary application than a video format. The general idea is that you can't use a general-purpose video player, you need a special-purpose software interpreter. I've heard that RealPlayer caused trouble when they first included a record button; they now let publishers disable the button. The worst part is that all this can twisted around into being an "effective technological measure," even though it is an elaborate smoke-screen.

GPLv3 explicitly does not support patented algorithms that are used as "leverage" to get you to use an "official player". (The actual Linux kernel is GPLv2)
Did you get the number on that truck?

somercet
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby somercet » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:12 pm UTC

Good God, so the drama.

Why is everyone whining about regressions in the Intel driver when that's not the problem? Adobe is.

Full screen Flash plugin playbacks suck now and sucked always (i.e., before the introduction of DRI2 into the main kernel tree). I have always gotten better speed, smoothness and video quality from MPlayer. Adobe refused to do the work to port their player to Linux. They chose not to support decent full screen in Linux until DRI2 is complete. Fine, that's their right; just as it's mine to sit back and watch as Microsoft devours them from above and GIMP from below.

Yeah, can you tell I freakin' despise PDF?

Mazin
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Mazin » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:17 pm UTC

Elladan wrote:Adobe's Linux support is amazingly bad, which is why fullscreen doesn't work on most video cards (extra special true fact: they basically grep the OpenGL vendor name string for "NVidia" and disable hardware scaling if they don't find it).

Actually, they grep for SGI, and disable GPU acceleration if it's there (all the mesa drivers have SGI in the vendor string, and a couple years ago that pegged you, statistically, as a user with an ATi or Nvidia graphics card whose proprietary graphics driver wasn't installed properly, and who thus didn't have 3D acceleration). Unfortunately, this catches out a lot of people who DO have 3D acceleration with OSS drivers (mainly Intel, but increasingly ATi as well, thanks to AMD's OSS driver initiative).

Elladan wrote:However, there's a simple workaround for fullscreen which works with most any card:

1. Use compiz. This is the default in some distributions, such as Ubuntu.
2. Enable "Enhanced Zoom Desktop." Hopefully, this is on by default too.
3. Hold down the meta key (it often has this weird wavy waffle shape on it) and wildly spin the scroll wheel to and fro.

The method by which you can solve the full screen flash problem will soon be obvious to you.

A less obvious but more correct way to solve the full screen flash problem is to add the line

Code: Select all

OverrideGPUValidation = true
to the mms.cfg file that resides in /etc/adobe, which disables the vendor checks, enables GPU acceleration all the time, and lets us Intel users have smooth full-screen flash videos.

calvinstrikesagain
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby calvinstrikesagain » Wed Aug 05, 2009 4:35 pm UTC

The solution to problem of poor fullscreen flash was posted on ubuntuforums.org awhile ago. Essentially you are creating a new larger buffer that was deleted in the upgrade from Flash 9 to Flash 10. What's sad is that the fix is so simple, Adobe knows it, and they have not released a patch.

http://ubuntuforums.org/showthread.php?t=1130582

It is fairly easy and shouldn't take but five minutes. I did it at the same time I upgraded to Jaunty.

amodelqueso
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby amodelqueso » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:25 pm UTC

I understand the angers, but I'm not sure many people understand that it's 10 million times more difficult for Adobe to adapt to Operating Systems than it is for the operating systems' developers to adapt for Flash.

Dr. Bronowski
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Dr. Bronowski » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:32 pm UTC

False.

iceberg
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby iceberg » Wed Aug 05, 2009 5:50 pm UTC

Willl wrote:But as others have pointed out, the main existing Linux market isn't people who watch the Daily Show. And unless end user Linux changes, nor will it ever be.



I don't know if you are aware, but everyone watches the Daily Show.
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endolith
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby endolith » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:04 pm UTC

In other words, Linux sucks.

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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby endolith » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:09 pm UTC

Max2009 wrote:So I can't watch full screen flash. Big deal! Why would I want to?


You probably wouldn't. Normal people, do, however.

I still feel superior


Yes, Linux fans, we know already.

because the last time my computer crashed was over a year ago, when Vista kamikaze'd for the last time.
I will take stability over pointless "bling" any day.


That's funny. My Ubuntu box crashes, locks up, or freezes at least once a month. Windows XP never did.

bencoder
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby bencoder » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:11 pm UTC

oh man, first xkcd that's made me laugh in a while, cheers Randall

/linux user

JohnWittle
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby JohnWittle » Wed Aug 05, 2009 6:37 pm UTC

Step One: Sell 2 of your 4048 processors
Step Two: Use Money to Purchase Two GTX 285s
Step Three: Put GTX 285s in your computer, SLIing them
Step Four: You can play flash videos full screen now.

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donaithnen
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby donaithnen » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:34 pm UTC

What's really funny is all the replies trying to explain away the problem. There is something a lot of users want to do, Linux doesn't support it out of the box. The response?

1: It's not Linux's fault! It's Adobe's fault! (We can't support what the common user wants to do.)
2: Oh yeah? Well Linux does a lot of other stuff way better than Windows! So shut up! (We don't need to support what the common user wants to do!)
3: Where have you been? That issue has already been fixed! And here's the list of steps you need to perform to get it working on your system... (We do support what the common user wants to do! They just needs to get used to jumping through esoteric hoops first rather than expecting it to work out of the box.)

I guess #2 has already given up on the idea of Linux ever "beating" Windows (with a big helping of smug superiority.) #1 and #3 though need to accept that it's Linux that has to change and figure out how to take care of that, because it's just not possible to change the attitudes of the vast majority of common users out there. Most of them are just going to use whichever OS is best at handling the tasks they want it to handle.

And i say this as someone who would like to see Linux get significant market penetration, but isn't delusional about how easily that's likely to happen.

ekim
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby ekim » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:46 pm UTC

one more vote for about 60 seconds of ??? at 4,0%

MostAwesomeDude
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby MostAwesomeDude » Wed Aug 05, 2009 7:46 pm UTC

So, here's the deal. Adobe's Linux team is exactly one person, and he's not exactly up-to-date on the various APIs that Linux has for drawing things. Let me spin a little yarn.

So, once upon a time, everything was done CPU-side, including drawing. Flash is a relic from that era; it contains a vector-based software rasterizer. This would be fine if it were not painfully slow and completely unaware of the various accelerated APIs. For example, Cairo is vector-based and does pretty speedy 2D, using acceleration where possible. The Gnash team has created a library called AGG which is software-only, but is disturbingly fast when it comes to drawing pretty anti-aliased vector stuff.

So, on this whole morass of suck, we add on a layer of fail: Flash Video. This system basically takes video, does software decoding, software scaling, and software rendering. There is not a single bit of this that is accelerated, which is really a shame, because we have Xv, XvMC, VDPAU, and all kinds of associated APIs that can be used to accelerate video. Even OpenGL can be used to do colorspace conversion and scaling in hardware.

"So," you say, "Let's just use OpenGL to do all of the stuff! That's cross-platform, reasonably well-supported for the features we need on just about every chipset in Mesa, and it works great for mplayer, VLC, and all those other open-source players!" Good plan. That's what the Adobe people thought too. There's just one problem. "How," say they, "How do we know that your drivers aren't made of loss, fail, suck, and other assorted bad things?" Ha! Good question. Allow me to answer with a Good Idea, Bad Idea.

Good Idea: Use the OpenGL extension system to query system drivers for the features needed to play video.

Bad Idea: Grep the OpenGL vendor string for either "ATI" or "nVidia".

Anybody who's actually used fglrx can attest to the painful stupidity of actually trusting that fglrx will work properly, and would (rightfully) agree that a preference for fglrx in the face of working, officially endorsed open-source drivers is probably a sign of Lovecraftian creeping madness. (Of course, we are talking about one of the more eldritch pieces of code in existence...)

So, for your tl;dr: Use youtube-dl or downloadhelper or some other tool to download FLV files raw, and play them with mplayer, VLC, or something else designed to play video.

Closing as NOTOURBUG.

~ C.

P.S. In case you don't know me: http://www.x.org/wiki/CorbinSimpson

P.P.S. DRI2 has nothing to do with this so stop touting it as the magical solution. DRI2 only fixes that one thing where 3D apps don't work right in compiz. Sheesh.

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tetsujin
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby tetsujin » Wed Aug 05, 2009 9:07 pm UTC

Krid wrote:
suso wrote:What the hell Randall? Its not the fault of community developers for not supporting flash stuff, its Adobe.


There's plenty of blame to go around. Yes Adobe's proprietary Flash plugin for Linux is fairly crappy, and yes Adobe is completely unhelpful to people trying to code an open-source alternative, but Randall hit the nail on the head about Linux kernel developers.

Linux kernel developers are coding the kernel so it will be better for server use, and optimizing it for those tasks at the expense of desktop usability. This is even more severe a problem when significant design decisions are made, as server work always wins out.
I'm sure you're aware about the task scheduler debacle awhile back, but that's far from the only conflict going on.

I've long since determined that the only way for Linux to be viable on the desktop market is for desktop-minded developers to fork the kernel and do some serious reworking.

suso wrote:They have been extremely slow in getting things like a native 64-bit flash plugin for Linux and I'm tired of waiting for them. Meanwhile, community developers have time to do other things like support 4096 processors. And the new version of Blender (2.5) is going to kick ass.


There's a proprietary 64bit flash10 plugin available now. It's not too bad, but sadly it's not a trivial task to get it working.


Huh?

My entire list of steps to get the 64-bit Flash 10 plugin working was as follows:
1: Download plugin (this was actually the hardest step, as it's not linked in via the regular download pages)
2: Untar it into /usr/lib/mozilla/plugins
3: Run web browser

Now, from what I hear getting Flash to work on 64-bit Linux used to be a lot harder before they released a 64-bit plugin... One had to use the 32-bit plugin with an interface wrapper or something... Whatever, I'm glad I got into the 64-bit game late enough that I didn't have to deal with that. :)

(EDIT): Oh, and I won't claim that Flash on my system is without its faults... I have a dual-monitor system with an ATI card - when I "fullscreen" something in Flash it scales to the aspect ratio of the two-monitor setup (i.e. 8x3) but the resolution of just one monitor... So I wind up with a 800x600 scaled video in the middle of one of my two 1600x1200 displays...

Personally I love Linux - I recently discovered that I'm just really not happy having my computers not run Linux - and so it hurts a little when XKCD jokes at its expense. But really, it's important to be realistic about the limitations of the software.
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aleflamedyud
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby aleflamedyud » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:33 pm UTC

I'm really hoping that my new Ubuntu netbook won't suffer this problem. Get out of my head, Randall!
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Max2009
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Max2009 » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:45 pm UTC

endolith wrote:In other words, Linux sucks.

Um, no. It has a few interesting quirks that sometimes don't work properly in very specific cases.
It's still more stable (and faster) than any Windows. It's still cheaper than Mac. Therefore, it's the best you're gonna get.
It's true that most people want their computer to work well, and consistently, and preferably for not too much money. In that case, Linux is the best solution.
Linux IS ready for widespread distribution, but first us geeks need to get our asses in gear and make it LOOK as user friendly as it is.
See here for more on that subject.
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sakeniwefu
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby sakeniwefu » Wed Aug 05, 2009 10:53 pm UTC

Just use Gnash. Oh, I wish I could say that.

In actuality, it turns out the holy GNU crusaders are unable to do better than a single guy(swfdec) and barely manage to play some Youtube videos with specially "crafted" support. Their implementation is also very slow. Swfdec is unmaintained so the only alternative is youtube-dl, which isn't bad if watching Youtube videos is the only thing you use Flash for.

X sucks, but you don't notice that anymore in modern computers. That is until someone breaks support for your Video Card. Windows 3 didn't have support for any 3D card yet it somehow managed to redraw windows in real time on 80386 computers. Not that current Vista or Mac OS X would do any better with their useless GUIs you can't disable, but it is still backwards.

Other than that there is little reason not to use a free Operating System.

Also 4,0% wtf?

Jesternaut
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Fullscreen flash workaround

Postby Jesternaut » Wed Aug 05, 2009 11:20 pm UTC

If you're in the boat where flash video worked fine on Ubuntu 8.10 and suddenly sucked in 9.04, there is a workaround for this. (Note: I'm Ubuntu-centric here, but any other distros with the same problem should have the same fix.) Type more /proc/mtrr at a terminal. Do you have a line that's of type "write-combining"? If not, then that's the problem -- there's supposed to be one. To fix it you just need to put a couple of settings back in manually.

You need to get a couple of numbers about your specific video card, and perhaps the easiest way to get yours is to boot to your old 8.10 LiveCD, where everything worked (it's still available here if you need to redownload it). In 8.10, open a terminal and type more /proc/mtrr at the prompt. Find the line that's of type "write-combining", the one that was missing in 9.04. It'll look something like this one:

Code: Select all

reg04: base=0x0c0000000 ( 3072MB), size=  256MB, count=1: write-combining


Write down the base and the size -- those are the two things you need. Now reboot back into your regular 9.04 system, and type this at a command prompt, using your own base and size figures in place of mine:

sudo echo "base=0xc0000000 size=0x10000000 type=write-combining" > /proc/mtrr

(If you need help converting the size into hexadecimal, Google can do it for you. Example for 256MB: Step 1, step 2. 256MB = 0x10000000.)

Voila, flash video is back to normal. Note that the fix only lasts until the next reboot, so you'll probably want to make that echo statement into a little script or something you can run on startup.

It's tiresome, but it sure beats having choppy video.

Supposedly it'll be fixed in 9.10.

(Note: I didn't come up with this fix -- I'm just passing it along as a public service to a thread full of frustrated Intel-video folks. Enjoy.)

-Jesternaut

Deciheximal
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Deciheximal » Thu Aug 06, 2009 12:22 am UTC

All these people thinking they're reading 4,0%. I had no problem with it. And even if I had misinterpreted it, it would have been easy to see what he meant after looking at 1,024. I know my powers of two. Now, the grammar mistake in the alt-text, "me and", I did notice.

The nice thing about Flash video online is that, at least in my browsers, you don't have to load the entire video to play it and there is also support for moving the time bar around in the downloaded section before the rest of the download completes.* That's a major flaw that I find with other players online. Is it because Flash videos encode time-similar video and audio together in a close space where other formats don't? If I chop off the top half of an .mpg file, I can still watch the remaining half. Not so with .avi.

(*Of course if I download the flash video, the player I'm using right now won't tolerate it if I try to skip around. Buggers.)
I like digraphs. Hey look, there's a digraph in digraph!

Kame
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Kame » Thu Aug 06, 2009 1:26 am UTC

I don't understand. I've always had smooth full screen flash playback out of the box using Crunch Bang Linux 8.10 on my old 2.8 ghz P4 machine using the proprietary drivers for my nvidia 6200.

Of course, the only thing I watch that uses flash is Hulu, does that have something to do with it?

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tehol
Posts: 38
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby tehol » Thu Aug 06, 2009 2:56 am UTC

plin25 wrote:At first, I misread "4,096" as "4,0%" and was utterly confused.

I think im blind. It took me a long time to see what you just pointed out.

I didnt get it until i read susos post, either, hahahaha

/me isnt a fake, I SWAR
ACF Forum home--Lether lol, CN FTW Goodbye, O fiendish mind-thief Seems I can't escape
- tehol OR tehol this link kills spam?

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jc
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby jc » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:04 am UTC

endolith wrote:In other words, Linux sucks.


Nah; most of it doesn't. But, as pointed out above, the parts of linux supplied or controlled by Adobe pretty much suck. And Adobe has the law on its side. They own flash, and you can't legally do much to fix its problems without their permission. It's pretty clear that Adobe has no intention of allowing a good flash implementation on linux.

So if your primary requirement in an OS is that flash runs well on it, you probably don't want to use linux. But you should be blaming Adobe, not linux, because they're the ones that control how well flash runs on each platform.

We don't really know why Adobe products suck so much on linux. Like the software, that information is proprietary. But the most likely explanation is the old advice "Follow the money". In this case, it's probably synonymous with "The fix is in". The linux gang doesn't have the bucks to grease the right palms, so they get locked out. It's the way The Market works, y'know.

sithwalrus
Posts: 13
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby sithwalrus » Thu Aug 06, 2009 4:27 am UTC

one i have been youtubing, and watching all kinds of flash vids in ubuntu, freespire, and a few other distros for years without any problems????
maybe my dad did something, i don't know (even after we upgraded to 9.04)
i don't know what to say about this comic. way to shatter my image of you as the Uber-Linux nerd. i have not looked at your particular system, but every time i have seen some kind of problem with ubuntu, there has been a simple fix for it somewhere on the intern00bs. you get what you paid for dude.
oh well, Randal, i expect you to redeem yourself with something particularly nerdy in the next comic.

Jesternaut
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Jesternaut » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:32 am UTC

Kame wrote:I don't understand. I've always had smooth full screen flash playback out of the box using Crunch Bang Linux 8.10 on my old 2.8 ghz P4 machine using the proprietary drivers for my nvidia 6200.

Of course, the only thing I watch that uses flash is Hulu, does that have something to do with it?


I've never used CrunchBang, but in Ubuntu at least, the problem only seems to happen with certain video cards -- mostly Intel video cards (hence the alt-text).

But given how common Intel video is, I'm really surprised that this bug made it all the way to the final release. And that it's apparently going to last a full six months until it's (hopefully!) fixed in 9.10.

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Max2009
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Re: Supported Features

Postby Max2009 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 6:42 am UTC

dasada122 wrote:
10nitro wrote:But you're real problem is that you think of the singular `Linux'.


Linii?

Actually, I think Linuces is better. Pronounced Lin-uh-cees.
Cogito ergo surf - I think therefore I network

Registered Linux user #481826 Get Counted! http://counter.li.org

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Shadic
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Shadic » Thu Aug 06, 2009 8:13 am UTC

Max2009 wrote:So I can't watch full screen flash. Big deal! Why would I want to?
I still feel superior because the last time my computer crashed was over a year ago, when Vista kamikaze'd for the last time.
I will take stability over pointless "bling" any day.

If your Windows install is crashing, you're doing something wrong. Also, saying "Functionality > Shiny!" is irony with all the people who point at Compiz to try and woo outsiders.

I've used both FreeBSD and Ubuntu, and got tired of fighting with both.

Also, games.

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Max2009
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Max2009 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:25 am UTC

Shadic wrote:If your Windows install is crashing, you're doing something wrong.

Yes, it's called using Windows.
Also, saying "Functionality > Shiny!" is irony with all the people who point at Compiz to try and woo outsiders.

I don't point at Compiz to woo outsiders. I don't use Compiz, I couldn't care less.
I've used both FreeBSD and Ubuntu, and got tired of fighting with both.

FreeBSD doesn't count, even geeks can't get it to work right. Ubunu is known for working well in a carefully controlled environment, and no more.
You should try Red Hat or one of it's derivatives (like Mandriva). Fast, reliable, easy, and no geeky twerking necessary.
Also, games.

Alas, this is true. But most of us *cough* mature *cough* people need the computer to work properly on work, not for games.
There is nothing more frustrating than writing an essay for 3 days straight, and then the %^#$& Windows crashes and takes the hard drive with it.
Yes, Windows is capable of physically destroying your hard drive. It's happened to me.
Cogito ergo surf - I think therefore I network

Registered Linux user #481826 Get Counted! http://counter.li.org

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Kyo
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby Kyo » Thu Aug 06, 2009 9:39 am UTC

I am a Linux user, but that's still bollocks. Ever consider that maybe your broken harddrive crashed windows? Windows doesn't destroy harddrives, it's just a piece of software

750
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Re: "Supported Features" discussion

Postby 750 » Thu Aug 06, 2009 10:48 am UTC

could be that its a question of corrupted filesystem...


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