2092: "Consensus New Year"

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2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby gmalivuk » Mon Dec 31, 2018 10:27 pm UTC

Image
The biggest jump is at 11:00am EST (4:00pm UTC) when midnight reaches the UTC+8 time zone. That time zone, which includes China, is home to a quarter of the world's population. India and Sri Lanka (UTC+5:30) put us over the 50% mark soon after.

The now-nameless original poster wrote:In honor of the complete lack of interest in this comic (seeing as I'm creating the thread after 2019 has started in most of the world),
I'm not even going to post the comic or the alt-text.

Go ahead and sue me. The statute of limitations ran out in 2018

Sorry, no statute of limitations on forum rules.
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby hamjudo » Mon Dec 31, 2018 11:41 pm UTC

I had to go to explainxkcd to confirm that something was wrong with the labels on the graph. The left most label is supposed to be 5AM. This makes the graph cover 26 hours. The extra two hours are from small regions within the timezones near the dateline, that want to be on the same day as the other side of the dateline.

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby sotanaht » Tue Jan 01, 2019 12:02 am UTC

Right but after we account for the bugs it occurs somewhere around 4-6pm.

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby Jan Steinman » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:40 am UTC

"Consensus" means all, or nearly all. It means that everyone "consents," even if they have minor quibbles.

So a "Consensus New Year" would happen as soon as the last time zone passes 23:59:59, not when a simple majority of people are in a new year.

Although I guess if people still in the old year "consent" to be in the new year, it could work. :-)

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby Old Bruce » Tue Jan 01, 2019 1:47 am UTC

OP who didn't follow the rules wrote:In honor of the complete lack of interest in this comic (seeing as I'm creating the thread after 2019 has started in most of the world),
I'm not even going to post the comic or the alt-text.

Go ahead and sue me. The statute of limitations ran out in 2018

You misspelled statue, don't worry I won't sue you over it.

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby Soot Leopard » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:46 am UTC

Huh... No it's a statute. A law thing. Statue is a rock thing.
I took advantage of this comic's exact concept in a small way last year.
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby dash » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:48 am UTC

Actually I wanted to comment on this one the moment I saw it this morning. It was pretty good.
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:28 am UTC

It's striking that only about 15% of the population enters the New Year later than London, despite there being almost half the planet between the Greenwich Meridian and the International Date Line.

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby Soot Leopard » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:38 am UTC

Well, a lot of it is an ocean.
And another big part is Canada which has a lot of space but much lower population density than most parts of asia and europe.
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:51 am UTC

sotanaht wrote:Right but after we account for the bugs it occurs somewhere around 4-6pm.

No, only the leftmost label is wrong.
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby GlassHouses » Tue Jan 01, 2019 3:54 am UTC

I also keep forgetting that most of South America is farther east than most of North America, so even in the Eastern U.S., we're really pretty late to the party.

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby dtilque » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:14 am UTC

hamjudo wrote:I had to go to explainxkcd to confirm that something was wrong with the labels on the graph. The left most label is supposed to be 5AM. This makes the graph cover 26 hours. The extra two hours are from small regions within the timezones near the dateline, that want to be on the same day as the other side of the dateline.


That's the wrong way to look at why there are two extra hours. Those places aren't on the same day as places on the "other side" of the dateline. What happened is that when Kiribati changed what day the Line Islands are on, they moved the dateline to the other side of those islands. The dateline is not permanently fixed to any place. Governments can decide what date and hour the official time is in their country. The dateline is the result of those decisions.
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby somitomi » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:44 am UTC

Showing timezones in a graph and not labeling the time axis in UTC?
That's a paddlin'
Jan Steinman wrote:"Consensus" means all, or nearly all. It means that everyone "consents," even if they have minor quibbles.

So a "Consensus New Year" would happen as soon as the last time zone passes 23:59:59, not when a simple majority of people are in a new year.

Although I guess if people still in the old year "consent" to be in the new year, it could work. :-)

Don't worry, we have the same sort of "consensus" about our goverment here and look how well Hungary is doing :P
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby orthogon » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:22 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:Showing timezones in a graph and not labeling the time axis in UTC?
That's a paddlin'
Jan Steinman wrote:"Consensus" means all, or nearly all. It means that everyone "consents," even if they have minor quibbles.

So a "Consensus New Year" would happen as soon as the last time zone passes 23:59:59, not when a simple majority of people are in a new year.

Although I guess if people still in the old year "consent" to be in the new year, it could work. :-)

Don't worry, we have the same sort of "consensus" about our goverment here and look how well Hungary is doing :P

And we have a similar "consensus" about leaving the EU, although it's usually referred to as "the will of the people".
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby cellocgw » Tue Jan 01, 2019 2:40 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
somitomi wrote:Showing timezones in a graph and not labeling the time axis in UTC?
That's a paddlin'
Jan Steinman wrote:"Consensus" means all, or nearly all. It means that everyone "consents," even if they have minor quibbles.

So a "Consensus New Year" would happen as soon as the last time zone passes 23:59:59, not when a simple majority of people are in a new year.

Although I guess if people still in the old year "consent" to be in the new year, it could work. :-)

Don't worry, we have the same sort of "consensus" about our goverment here and look how well Hungary is doing :P

And we have a similar "consensus" about leaving the EU, although it's usually referred to as "the will of the people".

[emphasis added]
That's as in "Last will and testament," right?
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby GlassHouses » Tue Jan 01, 2019 4:37 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:Showing timezones in a graph and not labeling the time axis in UTC?
That's a paddlin'

Randall chose the time zone he himself lives in.

As someone who lives in that time zone as well, I feel that this is an entirely reasonable choice. :D

Speaking of time zones, the third largest jump in the graph, after China and India which both have a huge population and use only one time zone each, is the one at 6 PM EST, a.k.a. midnight CET, thanks to the also-abnormal-width of the Central European Time zone. Seriously, how weird is it that Spain and Poland are in the same time zone?

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby somitomi » Tue Jan 01, 2019 5:02 pm UTC

GlassHouses wrote:
somitomi wrote:Showing timezones in a graph and not labeling the time axis in UTC?
That's a paddlin'

Randall chose the time zone he himself lives in.

As someone who lives in that time zone as well, I feel that this is an entirely reasonable choice. :D

Well I could say "UTC is a reasonable choice because it's close to what I live in", but it's actually a reasonable choice because timezones are expressed relative to it and so the graph could be easily converted to your own timezone. Whereas this way you have to look up what EST actually is, how many hours it is from UTC and then add that to how many hours your... eeeh forget it.
Speaking of time zones, the third largest jump in the graph, after China and India which both have a huge population and use only one time zone each, is the one at 6 PM EST, a.k.a. midnight CET, thanks to the also-abnormal-width of the Central European Time zone. Seriously, how weird is it that Spain and Poland are in the same time zone?

I'm not even sure what that is about, because even the EU has multiple timezones anyway, so it's not like CET is achieving much beyond messing up sunrise and sunset times for the countries on either edge.
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby Rombobjörn » Tue Jan 01, 2019 8:29 pm UTC

I hear Afghanistan, Iran and Ethiopia haven't adopted the Gregorian calendar. I wonder whether their populations are included in this graph. (Does it make a visible difference?)

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby Flumble » Tue Jan 01, 2019 10:08 pm UTC

Rombobjörn wrote:I hear Afghanistan, Iran and Ethiopia haven't adopted the Gregorian calendar. I wonder whether their populations are included in this graph. (Does it make a visible difference?)

With a total of 200 million people they account for 5 pixels on the chart, so they don't make a recognizable difference among these big jumps. Unless you mean the right side of the chart has to stay 5 pixels lower until they reach their year 2019. But that's unfair considering lots of countries have their own calendar regardless of how much they celebrate Western New Year, most notably China.

somitomi wrote:
GlassHouses wrote:
somitomi wrote:Showing timezones in a graph and not labeling the time axis in UTC?
That's a paddlin'

Randall chose the time zone he himself lives in.

As someone who lives in that time zone as well, I feel that this is an entirely reasonable choice. :D

Well I could say "UTC is a reasonable choice because it's close to what I live in", but it's actually a reasonable choice because timezones are expressed relative to it and so the graph could be easily converted to your own timezone. Whereas this way you have to look up what EST actually is, how many hours it is from UTC and then add that to how many hours your... eeeh forget it.

related: 1335 - Now

I'd really have liked the x-axis to be "midnight in". It would make for comically long (vertical) labels for a small chart, but this is a comic after all.

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jan 01, 2019 11:51 pm UTC

Flumble wrote:lots of countries have their own calendar regardless of how much they celebrate Western New Year, most notably China.

I was just wondering about this myself earlier today. There isn't one definitive epoch used with the Chinese calendar system, there are at least two different traditional ones and the Western one, the latter being more common today. So for a Chinese calendar using the Western epoch, is it still 2018 until (Gregorian) February 5th?
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby herbstschweigen » Wed Jan 02, 2019 10:57 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:It's striking that only about 15% of the population enters the New Year later than London, despite there being almost half the planet between the Greenwich Meridian and the International Date Line.

But the half between the Date Line and Greenwich contains the majority of the land masses, plus the areas with the highest population.

Flumble wrote:related: 1335 - Now

I'd really have liked the x-axis to be "midnight in". It would make for comically long (vertical) labels for a small chart, but this is a comic after all.


I second that. My first thought was a world map with the time zones as the x-axis, but it would have to be upside down to work.
Also related: 1799 - Bad Map Projection: Time Zones
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby phlip » Wed Jan 02, 2019 12:28 pm UTC

herbstschweigen wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:It's striking that only about 15% of the population enters the New Year later than London, despite there being almost half the planet between the Greenwich Meridian and the International Date Line.

But the half between the Date Line and Greenwich contains the majority of the land masses, plus the areas with the highest population.

... both of the halves are between the Date Line and Greenwich. Makes referring to the hemispheres in this manner a little awkward.

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Jan 02, 2019 4:15 pm UTC

phlip wrote:
herbstschweigen wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:It's striking that only about 15% of the population enters the New Year later than London, despite there being almost half the planet between the Greenwich Meridian and the International Date Line.

But the half between the Date Line and Greenwich contains the majority of the land masses, plus the areas with the highest population.

... both of the halves are between the Date Line and Greenwich. Makes referring to the hemispheres in this manner a little awkward.


Only if you take them as an unordered pair - otherwise the other half is between Greenwich and the Date Line instead.

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby herbstschweigen » Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:35 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
phlip wrote:
herbstschweigen wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:It's striking that only about 15% of the population enters the New Year later than London, despite there being almost half the planet between the Greenwich Meridian and the International Date Line.

But the half between the Date Line and Greenwich contains the majority of the land masses, plus the areas with the highest population.

... both of the halves are between the Date Line and Greenwich. Makes referring to the hemispheres in this manner a little awkward.


Only if you take them as an unordered pair - otherwise the other half is between Greenwich and the Date Line instead.

That's exactly what I meant. The half from the Date Line to Greenwich is the eastern, asian, earlier sunrise one.
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby gmalivuk » Thu Jan 03, 2019 6:12 pm UTC

We know you meant "from...to", but what you said was "between...and", and "between" is unordered.
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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby Soupspoon » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:05 pm UTC

At least it wasn't "betwixt". Or "betwixt and between". ;)

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby Flumble » Thu Jan 03, 2019 7:14 pm UTC

herbstschweigen wrote:That's exactly what I meant. The half from the Date Line to Greenwich is the eastern, asian, earlier sunrise one.

from the date line to greenwich.png

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby rmsgrey » Fri Jan 04, 2019 4:57 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:We know you meant "from...to", but what you said was "between...and", and "between" is unordered.


When talking about something with a natural ordering, "between X and Y" should be said such that X comes before Y. For example, I have an official document on hand that does not say "patients between the ages of 15 and 12" because that would be the wrong order.

When talking about the passage of midnight around the world, the half between the Date Line and Greenwich is the half with more land, while the half between Greenwich and the Date Line is the half with less. They're also not exact halves - the Date Line isn't true to the 180 degree line of longitude, and encloses rather more area to the east of that longitude (in the western hemisphere) than to the west (in the eastern hemisphere).

"Between X and Y" doesn't imply "X<Y" but it does imply that "Y<X" is false.

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Re: 2092: "Consensus New Year"

Postby ucim » Fri Jan 04, 2019 2:48 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:When talking about something with a natural ordering, "between X and Y" should be said such that X comes before Y.
Between you and me, should isn't is.

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