2066: "Ballot Selfies"

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2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Reka » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:49 pm UTC

Image
Title text: There were actually some good reasons for those laws, but IMO they now do more harm than good. Which raises a question: If there's a ballot measure to strike them down, how can I resist the urge to take a picture of my "yes" vote?

I can't come up with a reason to outlaw ballot selfies. Well, other than as fodder for a future generation's "look at the crazy laws they used to have" listicle.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Old Bruce » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:56 pm UTC

Reka wrote:...I can't come up with a reason to outlaw ballot selfies. Well, other than as fodder for a future generation's "look at the crazy laws they used to have" listicle.

Slows the line down. And, I am only going to say this once, "Selfies are stupid"
(says the guy with a face for radio and a voice for newspapers {that'll confuse the youngsters on here})

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby DavidSh » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:56 pm UTC

If you can prove to people how you voted, you can more easily sell your vote. Similarly, other people can pressure you into voting a certain way, and into using a ballot selfie to prove you were compliant.

As it is now, no one can expect you to back up any claim you make about your vote.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby cryptoengineer » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:11 pm UTC

There's a good reason for banning voting selfies: It allows the voter to prove that he/she voted
in a particular way.

This destroys the secrecy of the ballot, and permits things like coercion (Vote for X, and prove
it, or I'll beat you'), and vote selling ("Anyone who brings me a selfie showing they voted for
Y will get $20").

These are both Bad Things.

I'm pretty much an absolutist on this. For this reason, I object to all 'vote from home' schemes,
and think postal voting should only be done in a situation where the voter can be shown to be
unable to photo or show their ballot to anyone before its sealed in an envelope (for example, with
booths set up at post offices, also usable for early voting), or otherwise anonymized.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:19 pm UTC

Somewhere (maybe here, maybe somewhere else) there was a description of the Kafkaesque¹ route to apply-for and send a postal vote, under one state's rules. It involved the eventually-obtained ballot paper being witnessed as filled in by the intended recipient and perhaps countersigned by… someone. Sounded exactly as bad as already described.


¹ Not Escheresque. This is his voting-booth selfie, though.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Heimhenge » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:27 pm UTC

I always thought Escher missed an opportunity for infinite regression in that work. There should be a drawing of the mirror globe on the sheet of paper. And that drawn globe would show ...

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby crystalmeph » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:28 pm UTC

Agree with cryptoengineer and DavidSh, allowing ballot selfies is a terrible idea that would eliminate the assurance that people can vote their conscience without undue persuasion.

I actually can't even figure out what "harm" Randall believes the laws are doing?

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:50 pm UTC

Heimhenge wrote:I always thought Escher missed an opportunity for infinite regression in that work. There should be a drawing of the mirror globe on the sheet of paper. And that drawn globe would show ...

In the "Hand with a globe" version, he doesn't even have drawing equipment/paper/place-to-draw-upon in the image.

I'm always interested in those "look into the eyeball" cinematic shots, or other intentionallly retro-reflective¹ shots, wondering how much is real (maybe the camera and any operator is shrouded just enough to not be seen) and how much is CGI overlay or distortion of a simpler back-shot.

Not counting straight-forward "looking into a mirror" shots where the actor is staring in and back out at the camera lens, sufficiently angled (yet near-ish to perpendicular) to look like they're looking straight in at themselves looking straight back. Ditto the "triptych" tri-folded dresser mirrors where the camera is planted at the point where looking 'at' the centre or one of the side mirrors gives a "face on" view of the actor, to extenuate the image of her putting on make-up while making difficult choices, without the usual two-viewpoint cutaway to break fourth-and-fifth walls, respectively.

But that isn't so much voting-booth selfies stuff. Just interesting thoughts I've accumulated over the years.


¹ Ok, so not retro-reflective, but YKWIM.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:54 pm UTC

You probably love that mirror scene with young Ellie in Contact, where a whole long shot down winding hallways then turns out to all be a reflection in the mirror at the end of the hallway.
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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby sonar1313 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:57 pm UTC

crystalmeph wrote:Agree with cryptoengineer and DavidSh, allowing ballot selfies is a terrible idea that would eliminate the assurance that people can vote their conscience without undue persuasion.

I actually can't even figure out what "harm" Randall believes the laws are doing?

There are First Amendment objections, and those always come with slippery-slope arguments. But I don't agree with them. "Thou shalt specifically not take a picture of your ballot or in a voting booth because of this exact reason" seems really hard to apply to other situations.

cryptoengineer wrote:I'm pretty much an absolutist on this. For this reason, I object to all 'vote from home' schemes,
and think postal voting should only be done in a situation where the voter can be shown to be
unable to photo or show their ballot to anyone before its sealed in an envelope (for example, with
booths set up at post offices, also usable for early voting), or otherwise anonymized.


Personally I think absentee voting should be limited to people overseas. If you're out of state, you can have a ballot mailed to you, bring it sealed to a local polling place, open it there, and have them transmit the result back to your clerks.

My state is voting on no-reason absentee voting this year. I'm voting a hard No. It'll pass anyway. The more early voting you have, the greater risk of that influencing later votes. I don't even like that they start publishing East Coast results while the West Coast is still voting. When I'm king:

- US voting would take place on Election Day only.
- National holiday which is absolutely required for all but essential people like emergency personnel.
- Polls open 24 hours, from 12 midnight to 12 midnight Eastern, 9 PM to 9 PM Pacific. (Or fiddle with the times a bit if there's some better setup, but they're all open for 24 hours all at once.)
- I am very willing to spend lots of money on poll workers, extra booths, etc. to make sure the lines move quickly.
- If you have mobility issues, we will come and get you. If you're in the hospital, we will bring you a ballot.
- National-office primaries would in fact be under national control. Presidential primaries would take place only on five successive weeks. The smallest ten states go first; the biggest ten states go last.

Access to the ballot matters immensely, so other steps may be needed. But I don't think we place nearly enough emphasis on the sanctity of secrecy and timing. The media is constantly speculating on things like who benefits from more early voting, and that is bad. Early votes should NEVER influence later ones.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby cellocgw » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:05 pm UTC

Title text: ... Which raises a question:...


Thrilled to notice that Randall did not misuse "begs the question" there. I'll be happy all day.
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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Pfhorrest » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:37 pm UTC

I hadn't considered the ability-to-prove-how-you-voted angle of it, but that aside, I am super in favor of voting by mail and think that should be the normal default way of voting for everyone. Everyone who would be eligible to register to vote should just be auto-registered and sent a mail-in ballot, and return postage should be free. Makes it as easy as possible for people to vote, and gives everyone plenty of time and space to research how they want to vote. I'm normally registered as a permanent absentee voter (in California), but when I moved counties a few years back I had to go vote in person once because moving messed that up for that election somehow, and even living in a tiny town like I do where the little polling place with no lines is within easy walking distance of my house, it was still a much bigger pain in the ass to have to go down there and bring in a cheat-sheet of the choices I had decided upon doing research from home.

I wonder if there is some clever way to make vote-by-mail more secret, without losing all of its benefits.
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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby cryptoengineer » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:49 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:
crystalmeph wrote:Agree with cryptoengineer and DavidSh, allowing ballot selfies is a terrible idea that would eliminate the assurance that people can vote their conscience without undue persuasion.

I actually can't even figure out what "harm" Randall believes the laws are doing?

There are First Amendment objections, and those always come with slippery-slope arguments. But I don't agree with them. "Thou shalt specifically not take a picture of your ballot or in a voting booth because of this exact reason" seems really hard to apply to other situations.

cryptoengineer wrote:I'm pretty much an absolutist on this. For this reason, I object to all 'vote from home' schemes,
and think postal voting should only be done in a situation where the voter can be shown to be
unable to photo or show their ballot to anyone before its sealed in an envelope (for example, with
booths set up at post offices, also usable for early voting), or otherwise anonymized.


Personally I think absentee voting should be limited to people overseas. If you're out of state, you can have a ballot mailed to you, bring it sealed to a local polling place, open it there, and have them transmit the result back to your clerks.

My state is voting on no-reason absentee voting this year. I'm voting a hard No. It'll pass anyway. The more early voting you have, the greater risk of that influencing later votes. I don't even like that they start publishing East Coast results while the West Coast is still voting. When I'm king:

- US voting would take place on Election Day only.
- National holiday which is absolutely required for all but essential people like emergency personnel.
- Polls open 24 hours, from 12 midnight to 12 midnight Eastern, 9 PM to 9 PM Pacific. (Or fiddle with the times a bit if there's some better setup, but they're all open for 24 hours all at once.)
- I am very willing to spend lots of money on poll workers, extra booths, etc. to make sure the lines move quickly.
- If you have mobility issues, we will come and get you. If you're in the hospital, we will bring you a ballot.
- National-office primaries would in fact be under national control. Presidential primaries would take place only on five successive weeks. The smallest ten states go first; the biggest ten states go last.

Access to the ballot matters immensely, so other steps may be needed. But I don't think we place nearly enough emphasis on the sanctity of secrecy and timing. The media is constantly speculating on things like who benefits from more early voting, and that is bad. Early votes should NEVER influence later ones.


You've independently invented some of the other things I've thought of: the 24 hour poll opening (The *same* 24 hours from Maine to Hawaii),
and primaries with smallest states first. There should be no non-secret voting, and every effort should be made make sure everyone has access
to vote. I'm not so worried about early voting, so long as the votes remain uncounted until the polls close.

In addition: I work in cybersecurity. I find the computerized touch screen voting machines a security nightmare, and want them banned. All ballots should be on paper, and available for a manual recount.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby orthogon » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:12 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:When I'm king:

- US voting would take place on Election Day only.
- National holiday which is absolutely required for all but essential people like emergency personnel.
- Polls open 24 hours, from 12 midnight to 12 midnight Eastern, 9 PM to 9 PM Pacific. (Or fiddle with the times a bit if there's some better setup, but they're all open for 24 hours all at once.)
- I am very willing to spend lots of money on poll workers, extra booths, etc. to make sure the lines move quickly.
- If you have mobility issues, we will come and get you. If you're in the hospital, we will bring you a ballot.
- National-office primaries would in fact be under national control. Presidential primaries would take place only on five successive weeks. The smallest ten states go first; the biggest ten states go last.

Access to the ballot matters immensely, so other steps may be needed. But I don't think we place nearly enough emphasis on the sanctity of secrecy and timing. The media is constantly speculating on things like who benefits from more early voting, and that is bad. Early votes should NEVER influence later ones.

Wait, when you're king? I'm gonna need convincing of your commitment to democracy here...
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Old Bruce » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:23 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:...
I wonder if there is some clever way to make vote-by-mail more secret, without losing all of its benefits.

Wear a blindfold.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby x7eggert » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:27 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:I wonder if there is some clever way to make vote-by-mail more secret, without losing all of its benefits.


This is how it's done in Germany: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briefwahl#Durchführung

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Soupspoon » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:53 pm UTC

x7eggert wrote:This is how it's done in Germany: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briefwahl#Durchführung

They do it in German? The clever swines!

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Weeks » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:59 pm UTC

Old Bruce wrote:(says the guy with a face for radio and a voice for newspapers {that'll confuse the youngsters on here})
gottem, got them youngsters

cryptoengineer wrote:every effort should be made [to] make sure everyone has access to vote.
This should be a priority, really.
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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby xtifr » Wed Oct 31, 2018 8:03 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:Personally I think absentee voting should be limited to people overseas.


What about people with mobility problems? Getting to the polling place at all is a big issue for a <em>lot</em> of people.

And heck, why should "overseas" be the deciding factor? Maine is closer to the UK than it is to California! The US is a big country, and can take a long time or a lot of money (or both) to cross it.

I agree that there are big problems with voting-by-mail. But there are also big problems with making it harder for people to vote.

Putting more obstacles in the way of allowing people to vote is not a good thing. And limiting the number of people who can vote by mail, while one of the more justifiable obstacles, is still going to be an obstacle for a lot of people. With the current state of things (monied minorities attempting to win through voter suppression), I'm currently leaning towards allowing easy vote-by-mail, despite its obvious flaws.

I do hope in the longer run, we can find other, less problematic ways to make it easier to vote. First thing I'd do if I were in charge is move election day to a weekend. And mandate a minimum number of easily accessible polling places. And do something about gerrymandering. Then maybe we can try to find ways to improve the security of voting-by-mail without accidentally causing more voter suppression.
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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby sonar1313 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:32 pm UTC

xtifr wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:Personally I think absentee voting should be limited to people overseas.


What about people with mobility problems? Getting to the polling place at all is a big issue for a <em>lot</em> of people.

And heck, why should "overseas" be the deciding factor? Maine is closer to the UK than it is to California! The US is a big country, and can take a long time or a lot of money (or both) to cross it.


I mean, I did answer these questions a bit further on in the post.....

If you have mobility problems, request ahead of time and we'll send a shuttle. I don't think that's all that different from having to request an absentee ballot. There already are nonprofits who run shuttles all the time. I'm OK with spending public money to do it.

And if you live in another state from where you're registered, again, request ahead of time (and again, just like requesting an absentee ballot) and we'll mail you a sealed ballot, which you take to your local polling place, unseal there, and hand to the clerks when finished for transmittal back to your place of record.

In my opinion it really is not all that difficult to vote, even with measures in place that some call voter suppression. I don't think, for example, actually asking that you prove you're eligible is unreasonable. Many people arguing against voter suppression cite the relatively few instances of voter fraud, but I believe it's severely underreported because you have to actively go looking for it, and often when governments do they're accused of.....voter suppression. So there's kind of a catch-22 there.

(Here's a study on voter fraud that informs my opinion: https://www.heritage.org/election-integ ... 6-election)

I wouldn't put election day on a weekend, because people are more likely to be out of town. I would (again, as previously mentioned) declare it a national holiday from work, mandatory for employers. Those who must be at work, say like EMTs, would still have little problem voting if you also included a 24-hour voting period. And I'm totally OK with increasing the number of polling places.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby CardcaptorRLH85 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 9:35 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:Personally I think absentee voting should be limited to people overseas. If you're out of state, you can have a ballot mailed to you, bring it sealed to a local polling place, open it there, and have them transmit the result back to your clerks.

My state is voting on no-reason absentee voting this year. I'm voting a hard No. It'll pass anyway.


I'm guessing that you are a fellow Michigander. If so, hello! Unfortunately, I have to disagree with you on Proposition 3. Did you know that some County Clerks refuse to grant an absentee ballot for being out of state for college on Election Day? I've seen that situation happen to people I know. It was hard enough to get mine while I was out of state and I couldn't change my permanent address away from my mother's house without screwing up my financial aid so I couldn't just register where I was without having to drop out of school. No excuse absentee voting will remove the clerk's ability to refuse an absentee ballot to a registered voter for any reason.

Secondly, the reason that you can't simply turn in a ballot from one state at a polling place in another is that elections are officially handled at the state level in the Federal Constitutional Republic that is the United States of America. In some States, there are even differences from County to County in the machinery that is used and the 10th Amendment prohibits the federal government from directly controlling them.

The best way for the federal government to try to change this would be to offer to fund all federal elections if they meet a certain minimum standard but, as with the Medicaid Expansion, some Governors would probably balk and refuse the money anyway and we'd still have a patchwork of systems.

As you stated in your post, the only way to truly fix this problem would be by decree but, since we do things democratically here, that's not really tenable so, we have to wait for each state to come around individually.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby ucim » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:10 pm UTC

What if one is just... away? Whether on a planned vacation, or on an unexpected business trip that happens to coincide with election day?

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby qvxb » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:26 am UTC

If a. person is in the voting booth with the curtain closed, how can anyone tell they are taking a selfie?

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Reka » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:38 am UTC

qvxb wrote:If a. person is in the voting booth with the curtain closed, how can anyone tell they are taking a selfie?

Because they post it on Instagram, of course. :|

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby pogrmman » Thu Nov 01, 2018 2:13 am UTC

I do think that preserving vote secrecy is super important, but I’m also all for making voting more accessible. Ballot selfies go against the first, and banning them is totally reasonable.

Because it undermines vote secrecy to a degree, I disagree with no-reason absentee ballots. I mean, sure, there’s a “privacy envelope” with my ballot in it, but the whole package is still associated with my name. It’s certainly possible to still make it easy to get a ballot even if you need a reason — in Texas, you basically just sign something saying that you won’t be present in the county you are voting in for all of early voting and for Election Day. Because of that, it’s not hard for college students and the like to get a ballot if they need one. It is truly an absentee ballot though — aside from that, the only other way to get one mailed to you is if you are a senior citizen, disabled, or in jail on a misdemeanor. I’m not saying it’s a perfect system for doing absentee voting, though. You still are supposed to pay postage, there’s no guarantee you’re who filled out your ballot (sure, you’ve gotta sign it, but that’s not really any sort of verification), and it must be received by the day after Election Day (and be postmarked by Election Day).

I do think voting machines are stupid and should be replaced by simple, paper ballots. It’s much, much harder to upset an election with paper ballots than one with electronic ones.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Thu Nov 01, 2018 6:59 am UTC

I was wondering about the overseas mail ballots in the US: many countries just open a polling station at their embassies. Why would people need a mail ballot?

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby WriteBrainedJR » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:24 am UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:I was wondering about the overseas mail ballots in the US: many countries just open a polling station at their embassies. Why would people need a mail ballot?

I live abroad. It takes me a full day to get to the Embassy and a full day to get back. Or, if I fly, it costs about the same as my living expenses for a month, and the round trip takes a full day. I can't afford to go to the embassy for any reasons short of impending death or arrest. :lol:

I mean, this year it'd be worth it for the sake of supporting the opposition party against an unhinged lunatic (and, at least equally important to me, an authoritarian), but most years it's just supporting one person I mostly disagree with over another person I mostly disagree with, and they're both probably puppets for Wall Street.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby DavidSh » Thu Nov 01, 2018 12:31 pm UTC

Furthermore, without major restructuring of elections, they'd have to offer from potentially tens of thousands of different ballots. My ballot for the coming election includes both senators and local school board members. There is no single national ballot. Even just for the presidential election, different sets of candidates may file in each state, and the vote is technically for the state's set of electors.

To do this at embassies (consulates would be better), I think you'd have to have each municipality mail the ballot to the embassy, which would then just serve as a private polling place, before mailing the completed ballot back to the municipality.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby LtPowers » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:04 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:- US voting would take place on Election Day only.


What about special elections? Primaries? School budgets?

- National holiday which is absolutely required for all but essential people like emergency personnel.


So after you vote, what do you go do? Can't go shopping. Can't go to work. Can't go to an amusement park. Can't visit family (no gas stations open).


The media is constantly speculating on things like who benefits from more early voting, and that is bad. Early votes should NEVER influence later ones.


That's not what's happening. No one knows the results of the early voting. The reason Democrats benefit from early voting is because early voters are more likely to be Democrats. If you expand early voting, that effect would decrease.


Powers &8^]

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby LtPowers » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:05 pm UTC

xtifr wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:First thing I'd do if I were in charge is move election day to a weekend.


That would privilege people with white-collar, M-F jobs. It would make it easier for them to vote while not making it any easier for the working poor who often have multiple jobs, with weekend hours.


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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Keyman » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:41 pm UTC

On the other hand...
A perfect democracy, a ‘warm body’ democracy in which every adult may vote and all votes count equally, has no internal feedback for self-correction. It depends solely on the wisdom and self-restraint of citizens… which is opposed by the folly and lack of self-restraint of other citizens. What is supposed to happen in a democracy is that each sovereign citizen will always vote in the public interest for the safety and welfare of all. But what does happen is that he votes his own self-interest as he sees it… which for the majority translates as ‘Bread and Circuses.’

‘Bread and Circuses’ is the cancer of democracy, the fatal disease for which there is no cure. Democracy often works beautifully at first. But once a state extends the franchise to every warm body, be he producer or parasite, that day marks the beginning of the end of the state. For when the plebs discover that they can vote themselves bread and circuses without limit and that the productive members of the body politic cannot stop them, they will do so, until the state bleeds to death, or in its weakened condition the state succumbs to an invader—the barbarians enter Rome.”

I'm pretty sure this is what would be called an "elitist attitude"
Nothing could be more ill-judged than that intolerant spirit which has, at all times, characterized political parties. - A. Hamilton

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby orthogon » Thu Nov 01, 2018 1:54 pm UTC

LtPowers wrote:
xtifr wrote:
sonar1313 wrote:First thing I'd do if I were in charge is move election day to a weekend.


That would privilege people with white-collar, M-F jobs. It would make it easier for them to vote while not making it any easier for the working poor who often have multiple jobs, with weekend hours.


Powers &8^]

I was thinking, "that's interesting: anecdotally it feels like most countries seem to have their elections at weekends", then I thought "there must be a map of the world showing this"; a quick Google later and I found this:
Spoiler:
Image


So it turns out my hunch was right: most of Europe and South and Central America as well as some East/South-East Asian countries go for Sunday.

ETA: The "Thursday club" would make a good "what links" question.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Nov 01, 2018 9:12 pm UTC

x7eggert wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:I wonder if there is some clever way to make vote-by-mail more secret, without losing all of its benefits.


This is how it's done in Germany: https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Briefwahl#Durchführung
We mean mandatory secrecy, the voter has no option to vote publicly. As far as I understand the German system, there's nothing stopping someone from inviting the local crime boss over while they go through all those steps.

America has a history of massive vote selling, so we're pretty worried about it.
absentee ballot for being out of state for college on Election Day
That's another, separate thing. In my view, a person is a resident of the state of their college if they live in the dorm.
The thing about recursion problems is that they tend to contain other recursion problems.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Pfhorrest » Thu Nov 01, 2018 11:50 pm UTC

College residency always confused me, because they would ask for "current address" and "permanent address". Like... what is a "permanent address"? People move all the fucking time. Do you want my parents' address? I don't live with my parents. I can't live with my parents. Is everyone at college assumed to be some rich fucking trust fund baby who "really lives" with their parents but is being put up out of state, and not, you know, an adult, who has to rent their own place (because hah like anybody can fucking afford to own a house).
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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Archgeek » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:05 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:College residency always confused me, because they would ask for "current address" and "permanent address". Like... what is a "permanent address"? People move all the fucking time. Do you want my parents' address? I don't live with my parents. I can't live with my parents. Is everyone at college assumed to be some rich fucking trust fund baby who "really lives" with their parents but is being put up out of state, and not, you know, an adult, who has to rent their own place (because hah like anybody can fucking afford to own a house).


Yeah, it often implies your parents' address. Also, it should really be "semi-permanent address", since whoever you might live with out of town might move too. I wouldn't say that, current and semi-permanent can freely be the same. Plus, many college kids utterly rent some cheap hole on their own or with a roommate, while maintaining a "permanent" residency in their home town, just because their childhood stuff might be there (even if only in storage), or they return there for summers and holidays.

Some colleges are utterly nuts and do outright require the student live in the dorms for at least the first couple of semesters, for the sake of the "campus experience" or some such, exceptions being made for those that live with parents or guardians and commute to classes. Upperclassmen are allowed to do whatever they see fit, though. Usually a series of cheap apartments increasingly far from campus as graduation encroaches.
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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby ucim » Fri Nov 02, 2018 12:51 am UTC

Archgeek wrote:Some colleges are utterly nuts and do outright require the student live in the dorms for at least the first couple of semesters, for the sake of the "campus experience" or some such,
I don't find that nuts at all, and I'm generally in favor of it. But I suppose it depends on whether you think of college as a place to purchase information, or a place to absorb a way of thinking. And I suppose it also depends on how good the dorms are (WRT the "experience" they are attempting to get people into).

But although the whole residence thing is fuzzy, you do have to pick one. You can pick whichever one you want, but you can't pick two (and get two votes). You can argue that students are transients and shouldn't vote in their "temporary" town on matters that affect the "permanent" residents, but it can equally be argued that today's students are a proxy for future students, and the town has students as residents. Either way, you can't live two places and get two votes.

Quizatzhaderac wrote:We mean mandatory secrecy, the voter has no option to vote publicly. As far as I understand the German system, there's nothing stopping someone from inviting the local crime boss over while they go through all those steps.
How does the US enforce secrecy for mail-in ballots? I don't think it's possible. Not a big deal so long as mail-ins are a small enough minority, but if we go 100% mail-in, the entire idea of secrecy can be tossed.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby Soupspoon » Fri Nov 02, 2018 1:13 am UTC

Isn't a semi-permanent address something you'd be able to write on a whiteboard, then simply wipe off again later?

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby pogrmman » Fri Nov 02, 2018 2:51 am UTC

ucim wrote:How does the US enforce secrecy for mail-in ballots? I don't think it's possible. Not a big deal so long as mail-ins are a small enough minority, but if we go 100% mail-in, the entire idea of secrecy can be tossed.

I don’t know how other states do it, but in Texas, you place your ballot into a blank, unmarked “privacy envelope”. You then place that envelope into a second envelope, which you sign and put a sticker on with your name and stuff.

Theoretically, they get back your ballot, check if it was ok for you (and that you were supposed) to cast an absentee ballot, and record that you voted. They then place the privacy envelope containing your ballot into a ballot box with the rest of them. Those are then opened and counted on Election Day.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby ucim » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:09 am UTC

pogrmman wrote:I don’t know how other states do it, but in Texas, you place your ballot into a blank, unmarked “privacy envelope”.
No, that's not the question I was asking about. What prevents somebody from being paid to fill out a ballot a certain way and mailing it that way, by (say) sending a video of them doing it, and inserting it in a privacy envelope, and putting it in a (locked) mailbox? Secrecy is not enforced on the sender end, whereas at a polling place it is.

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Re: 2066: "Ballot Selfies"

Postby water_moon » Fri Nov 02, 2018 3:41 am UTC

It makes sense to not allow cameras in voting booths, selling votes is still an issue (In college one of my friends had a boss who told him he'd be fired if he didn't prove to the boss he voted a certain way, the worker in question was bragging he just took a picture then told the machine it was incorrect and changed it then showed the pic to his boss to "prove" it.)

And I have an issue with you taking a selfie in line for voting, I don't want me in your background.


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