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2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 5:32 pm UTC
by Steve the Pocket
Image

Rollover caption: SUB[59]: The submission numbers for my accepted OEIS submissions in chronological order

Over on Reddit, it's a running joke that everything you can possibly imagine, and most of the things you can't, have their own subreddits. To the point where the running joke itself has its own subreddit just for posting links to the weirdest ones you've found. My point is, this is the first time I've heard that there's a website dedicated to just cataloguing lists of numbers, and my reaction is simply "of course that's a thing".

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 6:12 pm UTC
by da Doctah
Oddly, I already knew about OEIS. In fact, I was the one who suggested the entry A133377 to the guy who submitted it.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 7:57 pm UTC
by Ken_g6
This got me curious if I could generate 200TB of nines. Well, I think I can:

Code: Select all

perl -e 'for($i=0; $i < 200*1024; $i++) { print "9"x(1024*1024*1024); print STDERR "$i GB so far\n" }'


Then the next question would be how to submit it? Gzip was too big to be practical. So were bzip2 and xz. Oddly, bzip2 did the best, and it's pretty orderly. So I decided to try bzip2 on it again. It works quite well. The main problem is I estimate it would take five days to generate the full 200TB!

Here's a base64 of the first 270,000,000,000 nines, double-bzipped:

Code: Select all

QlpoOTFBWSZTWbyCwBUDJad/9VFgAIBBQGFgMgDIMABgEABAIFQAITAABBQAQAHbklQGGRgTTAmQ
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Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:08 pm UTC
by gd1
2 more comics till we reach 2018 in 2018...

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 8:15 pm UTC
by Millah
Ken_g6 wrote:This got me curious if I could generate 200TB of nines. Well, I think I can:

Code: Select all

perl -e 'for($i=0; $i < 200*1024; $i++) { print "9"x(1024*1024*1024); print STDERR "$i GB so far\n" }'


Then the next question would be how to submit it? Gzip was too big to be practical. So were bzip2 and xz. Oddly, bzip2 did the best, and it's pretty orderly. So I decided to try bzip2 on it again. It works quite well. The main problem is I estimate it would take five days to generate the full 200TB!

Here's a base64 of the first 270,000,000,000 nines, double-bzipped:

Code: Select all

QlpoOTFBWSZTWbyCwBUDJad/9VFgAIBBQGFgMgDIMABgEABAIFQAITAABBQAQAHbklQGGRgTTAmQ
xNGBhkYE0wJkMTRgJqqoaaaZMRoGh6mNMgUqqMJpgjIwCYJndApSsIFKV3wKUryhREclVER7KqIj
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28YJj4u5IpwoSD6uy94A


If you zip it, is it still 200TBs of 9s?

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 9:46 pm UTC
by drachefly
psst… use a run-length encoder first.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:25 pm UTC
by Ken_g6
Millah wrote:If you zip it, is it still 200TBs of 9s?

Hm. If each "9" is a byte, then I think it's still 200TBs of 9s. But maybe not.

270 billion 9s took 5088 bytes. Then, 200TB of double-bzipped 9s would be...about 10 sextillion 9s! :shock:

drachefly wrote:psst… use a run-length encoder first.

I didn't think they could read a run-length encoder's files. I figured maybe they could read bzip2.

As it turns out, they can't. But they'd probably take a Perl program. :twisted:

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 10:28 pm UTC
by Soupspoon

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 06, 2018 11:56 pm UTC
by Tub
drachefly wrote:psst… use a run-length encoder first.

Backreferences are just as good as run-length encoding, the limit here is that common implementations (zip/gzip/deflate etc) have a fixed bit-size for the "length" parameter. For example, a backreference in DEFLATE is at least 24 bits long but has just 8 bits for length. The maximum compression factor is 1:86 = ~1.1%.

bzip2 should produce great results here. The first three steps (initial RLE, burrow-wheeler transform, MTF) are counterproductive in this case, but you still end up with a string with reasonably long runs - an input of ~43MB will end up as 5 different runs instead of just one.
The following RLE has no limit on the run length, except the block size. Including block headers, the end result should be a compression ratio about 1:1.000.000, but on 200TB that's still 200MB. (As Ken has already figured out, the blocks do repeat, so compress recursively.)

/edit: actually, screw RLE. All you need is a good entropy coder, because the entropy of 200 trillion '9's followed by 'eof' is just around ~49 bit, plus header.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 4:31 pm UTC
by GlassHouses
Steve the Pocket wrote:Over on Reddit, it's a running joke that everything you can possibly imagine, and most of the things you can't, have their own subreddits. To the point where the running joke itself has its own subreddit just for posting links to the weirdest ones you've found. My point is, this is the first time I've heard that there's a website dedicated to just cataloguing lists of numbers, and my reaction is simply "of course that's a thing".

The OEIS existed before Reddit made this kind of thing cool, though. According to the OEIS web site, it was founded in 1964... Although I have trouble reconciling that date with the "On-Line" part of OEIS, since that's five years before ARPANET.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Sat Jul 07, 2018 7:21 pm UTC
by madaco
OEIS is useful and good

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 6:16 am UTC
by Farabor
GlassHouses wrote:The OEIS existed before Reddit made this kind of thing cool, though. According to the OEIS web site, it was founded in 1964... Although I have trouble reconciling that date with the "On-Line" part of OEIS, since that's five years before ARPANET.


If you dig a bit deeper, you'll find it was originally just the EIS, kept on paper. I've used it in the past in my course on analytic combinatorics.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:53 am UTC
by Yerushalmi
One of the sequences was approved: https://oeis.org/A316599

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:58 am UTC
by speising
Yerushalmi wrote:One of the sequences was approved: https://oeis.org/A316599

and when reading the description, we now know why randall's submissions get rejected: not because they're dumb, but because they're not precisely enough defined.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 9:30 am UTC
by Yerushalmi
It wasn't rejected, it was... workshopped.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 11:11 am UTC
by cellocgw
Ken_g6 wrote:This got me curious if I could generate 200TB of nines. Well, I think I can:

Code: Select all

perl -e 'for($i=0; $i < 200*1024; $i++) { print "9"x(1024*1024*1024); print STDERR "$i GB so far\n" }'


Then the next question would be how to submit it? Gzip was too big to be practical. So were bzip2 and xz. Oddly, bzip2 did the best, and it's pretty orderly. So I decided to try bzip2 on it again. It works quite well. The main problem is I estimate it would take five days to generate the full 200TB!

Here's a base64 of the first 270,000,000,000 nines, double-bzipped:
{code snipped}


Best clickbait of the month. I fear for the future of mankind if anyone tries to unzip that string.

Strangely enough, :lol: :lol: :lol: I can zip 200TB of "9" into a rather smaller file. Another case of progress causing regression (where 'progress' is defined as 'useless status message' )


Also:
I knew about OEIS already. Plus I'm an OTTer. They were right when they called me a nerd.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 3:25 pm UTC
by orthogon
speising wrote:
Yerushalmi wrote:One of the sequences was approved: https://oeis.org/A316599

and when reading the description, we now know why randall's submissions get rejected: not because they're dumb, but because they're not precisely enough defined.

Loving how one of the key details is related to keming.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Mon Jul 09, 2018 8:22 pm UTC
by GlassHouses
cellocgw wrote:
Ken_g6 wrote:Gzip was too big to be practical. So were bzip2 and xz.

Strangely enough, :lol: :lol: :lol: I can zip 200TB of "9" into a rather smaller file.

How? Don't zip and gzip use the same compression algorithm?

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:52 pm UTC
by cellocgw
GlassHouses wrote:
cellocgw wrote:
Ken_g6 wrote:Gzip was too big to be practical. So were bzip2 and xz.

Strangely enough, :lol: :lol: :lol: I can zip 200TB of "9" into a rather smaller file.

How? Don't zip and gzip use the same compression algorithm?


I dunno, but I do know duplicate replies occasionally sneak into threads.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 3:53 pm UTC
by cellocgw
cellocgw wrote:
GlassHouses wrote:
cellocgw wrote:
Ken_g6 wrote:Gzip was too big to be practical. So were bzip2 and xz.

Strangely enough, :lol: :lol: :lol: I can zip 200TB of "9" into a rather smaller file.

How? Don't zip and gzip use the same compression algorithm?


But if I don't include all the comment strings, I have nothing but '9's, a zero-information file. RLE will return 2 numbers, Nice and small

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:26 pm UTC
by grkvlt
Ken_g6 wrote:So I decided to try bzip2 on it again. It works quite well.


Surely this shouldn't happen? It would mean bzip2 isn't a very good compression algorithm, since the entropy of its output should be maximised and therefore uncompressible?

EDIT: Oh, there are repeated blocks in the output, so recursive compression will make it smaller, right. Still, I wonder why the algorithm doesn't handle this itself, and repeatedly apply until no reduction is found, and prepend the number of decompression steps as an extra byte at the beginning, normally 0x01.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 4:56 pm UTC
by Archgeek
Millah wrote:
Ken_g6 wrote:This got me curious if I could generate 200TB of nines. Well, I think I can:

Code: Select all

perl -e 'for($i=0; $i < 200*1024; $i++) { print "9"x(1024*1024*1024); print STDERR "$i GB so far\n" }'


Then the next question would be how to submit it? Gzip was too big to be practical. So were bzip2 and xz. Oddly, bzip2 did the best, and it's pretty orderly. So I decided to try bzip2 on it again. It works quite well. The main problem is I estimate it would take five days to generate the full 200TB!

Here's a base64 of the first 270,000,000,000 nines, double-bzipped:

Code: Select all

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IFQAITAABBQAQAHbklQGGRgTTAmQxNGBhkYE0wJkMTRgJqqoaaaZMRoGh6mNMgUqqMJpgjIwCYJn
dApSsIFKV3wKUryhREclVER7KqIj3KqIjxKoiP2VREZFVESwgUpXGBSlYoKUrTApSviBSlYkFKVi
gkRwlURH8qoiNqqiIz/UqiI6yqIjbKoiOFBSlfcClK/YFKV/wCI5qqIjoqoiPEqiFYIKUrhApSs4
FKV0QUpW8gpSsUFKVkgpSsyClKyQUpXVBSlZQKUrCBSlZoKUrOBSldjFBWSZTWQRYF5cAAAB/sQA
gAIAAQCFAAgDAAAAgEABUACEwEAAgACKABhPJCmTEyDIxdgBH4pR28YJj4u5IpwoSD6uy94AQlpo
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hkYE0wJkMTRgJqqoaaaZMRoGh6mNMgUqqMJpgjIwCYJndApSsIFKV3wKUryhREclVER7KqIj3KqI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If you zip it, is it still 200TBs of 9s?

Truly a Zen koan for our time.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Tue Jul 10, 2018 6:22 pm UTC
by ucim
grkvlt wrote:Still, I wonder why the algorithm doesn't handle this itself, and repeatedly apply until no reduction is found, and prepend the number of decompression steps as an extra byte at the beginning, normally 0x01.
Perhaps because there's not much call for 200TB of 9s, and the added complexity isn't worth the added benefit?

Jose

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 5:18 am UTC
by keldor
ucim wrote:
grkvlt wrote:Still, I wonder why the algorithm doesn't handle this itself, and repeatedly apply until no reduction is found, and prepend the number of decompression steps as an extra byte at the beginning, normally 0x01.
Perhaps because there's not much call for 200TB of 9s, and the added complexity isn't worth the added benefit?

Jose


Some file compression algorithms do this. This has led to malicious files that recursively decompress to "data" petabytes in size, or worse, carefully constructed files that decompress back into themselves infinitely.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zip_bomb

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 3:58 pm UTC
by Steve the Pocket
Yerushalmi wrote:One of the sequences was approved: https://oeis.org/A316599

Being the sort of oddball that I am, I can't help but be amused that they changed it to Arial because Helvetica is "proprietary". Do they think Arial is in the public domain or something? 'Cuz it ain't.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Wed Jul 11, 2018 4:02 pm UTC
by Yerushalmi
Steve the Pocket wrote:
Yerushalmi wrote:One of the sequences was approved: https://oeis.org/A316599

Being the sort of oddball that I am, I can't help but be amused that they changed it to Arial because Helvetica is "proprietary". Do they think Arial is in the public domain or something? 'Cuz it ain't.


An objection that was raised immediately on the OEIS mailing list :) I haven't checked if it's been resolved.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 5:49 pm UTC
by SuicideJunkie
Yerushalmi wrote:An objection that was raised immediately on the OEIS mailing list :) I haven't checked if it's been resolved.
I really hope there is an online archive where we can read this assuredly amusing exchange, and that someone will link to it.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Jul 13, 2018 7:22 pm UTC
by pernishus
Thread activity: let's post sequences that we think are interesting and possibly obscure
I'll start.
http://oeis.org/A084398
Definition: Except for a(1) = 1, rearrangement of natural numbers such that a(n) is not equal to n, but the prime signature of a(n) is the same as that of n.

Initial 20 terms:
1, 3, 2, 9, 7, 10, 5, 27, 4, 6, 13, 18, 11, 15, 14, 81, 19, 12, 17, 28

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Sat Jul 14, 2018 9:46 am UTC
by yae9911
SuicideJunkie wrote:
Yerushalmi wrote:An objection that was raised immediately on the OEIS mailing list :) I haven't checked if it's been resolved.
I really hope there is an online archive where we can read this assuredly amusing exchange, and that someone will link to it.
Unfortunately the archiving process of the SeqFan mailing list is currently broken. At the moment only a single post related to the topic is accessible: http://list.seqfan.eu/pipermail/seqfan/ ... 18694.html
Her is a copy of what I have posted to the list in reply to the "proprietary" remark:
Hugo Pfoertner wrote:The intent of the comment "Helvetica is a proprietary font ...." was different. 99.9xx % of the standard system and program installations on Windows, Linux and perhaps also Mac computers don't provide Helvetica as an option for printing. To get access to Helvetica, one has to buy a license from the Linotype-Hell AG. Most Windows users believe that Arial would deliver "somehow" similar results to Helvetica, but they cannot verify this assumption. The same caveat applies to all other substitutions for Helvetica in Ghostscript, Open/Libre office, ...
The only way for myself to use genuine Helvetica would be to write a Postscript file, re-activate my first PC and send the file to the legacy HP LaserJet 4ML postscript printer that has an authorized built-in capability to interpret Helvetica correctly.

Even the expensive Adobe CS tools like Illustrator, InDesign, etc. didn't include the Helvetica font in the standard installation. Arial was available, an I'll use InDesign and its pdf export to create the announced graphical example. So the task described in the comic " .... printed in Helvetica" is only solvable for graphics professionals with access to a licensed copy of the font.

In contrast, all Windows installations -still- include the Arial True Type font defined in the file
arial.ttf, size 1036584, dated 2018 Apr 12 01:34, last distributed with Windows 10 Pro Version 1803. What I did, was to extract the Adobe Font Metrics information from this file into an .afm file using
https://www.files-conversion.com/font-converter.php
which seems to use FontForge https://fontforge.github.io/en-US/ for the conversion. I don't think that there is anything violating license rules with this procedure.

In the meantime I have found an "official" information on the font metrics of Helvetica at Adobe's Font technical notes webpage https://www.adobe.com/devnet/font.html. It provides a link to
http://download.macromedia.com/pub/deve ... 4_AFMs.zip , which includes helvetica.afm. From its content, it seems that "integers... printed in Helvetica" would produce massive differences to "printed in Arial", due to the absence of the kern pair definition "KPX one one -74" found in arial.afm, but not in helvetica.afm, that causes the shrinking of print width for numbers containing consecutive ones. To be provocative, one can say "Arial intentionally messes up the printing of numbers".
See the second (Earl Jenkins's) answer in https://stackoverflow.com/questions/394 ... ost-pixels and David Harralson's answer in https://www.quora.com/Why-did-Microsoft ... to-Calibri for some historical background.


In the meantime A316600 is available:
http://oeis.org/A316600

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Fri Aug 24, 2018 8:45 pm UTC
by drachefly
Tub wrote:
drachefly wrote:psst… use a run-length encoder first.

Backreferences are just as good as run-length encoding, the limit here is that common implementations (zip/gzip/deflate etc) have a fixed bit-size for the "length" parameter. For example, a backreference in DEFLATE is at least 24 bits long but has just 8 bits for length. The maximum compression factor is 1:86 = ~1.1%.

bzip2 should produce great results here. The first three steps (initial RLE, burrow-wheeler transform, MTF) are counterproductive in this case, but you still end up with a string with reasonably long runs - an input of ~43MB will end up as 5 different runs instead of just one.
The following RLE has no limit on the run length, except the block size. Including block headers, the end result should be a compression ratio about 1:1.000.000, but on 200TB that's still 200MB. (As Ken has already figured out, the blocks do repeat, so compress recursively.)

/edit: actually, screw RLE. All you need is a good entropy coder, because the entropy of 200 trillion '9's followed by 'eof' is just around ~49 bit, plus header.


Entropy coders need implementations. If Bzip2 starts with an RLE and doesn't just completely finish right there, then they didn't design it with super-huge runs in mind.

Also, you're supposed to put the BWT before your RLE. Why RLE first?

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Sat Aug 25, 2018 11:10 am UTC
by Tub
drachefly wrote:Also, you're supposed to put the BWT before your RLE. Why RLE first?

bzip has two RLE steps.
RLE -> BTW -> MTF -> RLE
Both RLEs have different encodings and maximum run lengths. The first one is supposed to guard against worst-case inputs; due to its inefficient (but fast) encoding it will actually enlargen most inputs. IIRC the author has since claimed that including it was a mistake.

Re: 2016: "OEIS Submissions"

Posted: Mon Sep 10, 2018 11:40 am UTC
by Eianz
But what if the zip bomb is sitting inside compression files and unleash the curse