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1986: "River Border"

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:41 pm UTC
by Ignitus
River Border

Image

Alt Text: I'm not a lawyer, but I believe zones like this are technically considered the high seas, so if you cut a pizza into a spiral there you could be charged with pieracy under marinaritime law.


Someone is a little confused, but its cute she cares. In my home town the border is derived from where the river was in 1830. So we have lots of little loops that are the jurisdiction of the city across the river and I always wondered how much of a pain it must be to need to cross a bridge and drive through an area of town you have no jurisdiction for in order to respond to a call. I mean I assume the two cities have agreements for this stuff, but I've never formally looked it up.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:49 pm UTC
by Soupspoon
You thread-ninjaed me, had to delete my alternate OP. (You forgot the quotes around the title, BTW, and I think you also forgot the link on the image. (edit: Or not. Maybe I mis-tapped, first time.) Quickly correct it, before it gets corrected for you?)

My own follow-on comment was:


If we make the river flow backwards, do we have to get everyone in Missouri to move to Nebraska and everyone in Nebraska move to Missouri, just to make the vector mathematics work properly?

I spent minutes deciding between "maths" (better for me and most of the world who care) and "math" (better for you colonials) before deciding upon "mathematics"!

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:53 pm UTC
by jozwa
Crimes!

Image

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 3:57 pm UTC
by moody7277
Of course if you put pineapple on a pizza, that's considered a crime against humanity for which you could be charged in The Hague.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:01 pm UTC
by Keyman
Guess I agree it's a crime, even if it's not illegal.

But quite a long way to go to use "marinaritime". :wink:

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:03 pm UTC
by rmsgrey
Keyman wrote:Guess I agree it's a crime, even if it's not illegal.

But quite a long way to go to use "marinaritime". :wink:


I was so hung up on "pieracy" that I didn't even notice the subsequent non-word.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:17 pm UTC
by yakkoTDI
moody7277 wrote:Of course if you put pineapple on a pizza, that's considered a crime against humanity for which you could be charged in The Hague.


But the pineapples are so tasty with the jalapenos!



jozwa wrote:Crimes!

Image


I love this criminal!!

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 4:45 pm UTC
by pogrmman
I’m embarrassed — I thought that Missouri didn’t border Nebraska anywhere (even though I’m going to school in IA and have spent a fair amount of time in Kansas City). I thought it only bordered Kansas on that side... Looking at a map, I guess I’m wrong. I’ve even crossed both the KS/MO border and the NE/IA border multiple times.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 5:05 pm UTC
by da Doctah
Your homework assignment: research the New Madrid Bend, and be prepared to give the exact latitude and longitude of the point where Missouri, Tennessee and Kentucky meet.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:05 pm UTC
by Keyman
I *knew* there was a book in my past....

Heartily recomended. The Rift - Walter Jon Williams

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 6:12 pm UTC
by alacy52
This actually exists both on Nebraska's borders with Iowa and Missouri.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKissick_Island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Lake,_Iowa

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:00 pm UTC
by J the Ninja
There is also a section in Yellowstone where it’s theoretically impossible to prosecute any crimes committed there: https://www.vox.com/2014/5/22/5738756/y ... -away-scot

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 7:03 pm UTC
by pogrmman
alacy52 wrote:This actually exists both on Nebraska's borders with Iowa and Missouri.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McKissick_Island
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carter_Lake,_Iowa


I’m not actually all that surprised — this seems to be an issue everywhere there are borders and rivers. I know Texas/New Mexico had a dispute about this (as did Texas/Mexico). I believe on the Croatia/Serbia border, one claims the old path as the border, and the other claims the new path as the border, leaving little parcels of clans claimed by neither (and by both).

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Fri Apr 27, 2018 10:32 pm UTC
by Reka
Regarding the title text: Randall, come here. No, right here. A little closer. There. Now stand still.

THWACK! THWACK! THWACK THWACK THWACK THWACK THWACK!!!!

That is all, you may go now.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 4:07 am UTC
by RogueCynic
I wonder if Randall has ever been to 5 Corners:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QrYtUalYdWg

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:16 am UTC
by Lucia
Is there a list somewhere of xkcd comics that pass Bechdel-Wallace?

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 8:30 am UTC
by Pelyphin
This has happened a few times since the Rio Grande was recognized as the US/Mexican border. About one square mile of territory was added to the US (called the Chamizal), as the river shifted at some point. Some people settled there, and it became a point of contention between the US and Mexico for the better part of the 20th century. When it was decided that the land belonged to Mexico, as part of a bargaining process, those US citizens remaining were driven from their homes (well in advance of the ceremony that marked the handover, to keep anything from disrupting the harmony and goodwill).

Instead of recognizing the present course of the Rio Grande as the border - or setting an arbitrary border where the river had been originally - the geniuses in charge of the process dug a cement-lined canal along the border, and planned to divert the river into that, I guess so that tradition - and the language of the last border treaty - would be satisfied. The ceremony included a couple of buttons that the presidents of both countries would press simultaneously, triggering dynamite to divert the Rio Grande. The explosives failed, but some engineers got the job done shortly afterward.

It seems like the town - the whole area - should have been flooded, uninhabitable. If you look it up now, the way they settled the dispute is hailed as a triumph of diplomacy and international cooperation. It was a triumph of PR, at least.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:59 am UTC
by chrisjwmartin
*reads tooltip*

What on earth does pie have to do with pizza?

*thinks for a bit*

Oh, right - Randall is American, and for some reason they talk about "pizza pies".

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:17 am UTC
by Pelyphin
It seems strange to me to imagine pizza as something other than a pie. Especially Chicago pizza - look up images for that, and you'll get it. I mean, if someone says "pie," my first thought is dessert, but there are plenty of meat pies and pot pies and so forth all over the world. I'm keeping an open mind here, but where's the discrepancy? What else would pizza be?

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:41 am UTC
by AndrewGPaul
It's basically stuff on bread, isn't it? Whereas pies are things in pastry*. Someone else can tell us what the difference between bread and pastry is.

Although I suppose if a cottage pie and shepherds' pie are pies (with a crust made of potato, not pastry) then a deep-dish pizza could be a pie.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 12:29 pm UTC
by pogrmman
Pizza is only a pie if you’re a filthy heathen who only eats deep dish pizza. Otherwise, it’s it’s own food group.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:25 pm UTC
by eviloatmeal
AndrewGPaul wrote:It's basically stuff on bread, isn't it? Whereas pies are things in pastry*. Someone else can tell us what the difference between bread and pastry is.

Yes, hello. I do believe that technically a pastry dough must contain shortening, whereas bread dough is made with oil. Pizza is definitely bread. If you fold your slice then it might be a sandwich depending on the hot dog divide.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 1:31 pm UTC
by Soupspoon
And I first read "pieracy" as "pier"acy, even though/especially it gets a different compound of vowel sounds. A structure poking out out into water just seemed more relevant to the scenario than something supposedly like how the moon hits your eye… I worked it out eventually, but that pun didn't travel very well at all. (I'm not saying that there was not a sausage of humour, but obviously they can't all be weiners!)

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 3:16 pm UTC
by GlassHouses
Ignitus wrote:Someone is a little confused, but its cute she cares. In my home town the border is derived from where the river was in 1830. So we have lots of little loops that are the jurisdiction of the city across the river and I always wondered how much of a pain it must be to need to cross a bridge and drive through an area of town you have no jurisdiction for in order to respond to a call. I mean I assume the two cities have agreements for this stuff, but I've never formally looked it up.

A year or two ago, there was a land swap between Belgium and the Netherlands, in a similar situation. The bits of Dutch land that had ended up on the Belgian side of the river were being used for illegal wild camping, loud parties, and lots of littering/dumping, which Belgian law enforcement couldn't do anything about because it wasn't their jurisdiction, and Dutch law enforcement couldn't get there because no boats. I don't remember if similar bad behavior happened on the Belgian land that ended up on the Dutch side of the river, but if it did, the problems for law enforcement would have been the same.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 5:36 pm UTC
by wumpus
The Potomac river is the border of Maryland and Virginia, with the curious property that the entire river is part of Maryland. As far as I know, the only real difference is that you could have a building on the Virginia shore that sold VA lottery tickets, and also have a cash register on a floating pier selling MD ones as well (and also any item taxed lighter/available less expensive* than in VA). In practice I've never heard of this being done (also VA is allowed to take water from the river without the consent of MD. This isn't as big a deal as it would be in the western parts of the US).

* While I expect the official tax is lower on just about everything in VA, alcohol is typically more expensive. I'm guessing alcohol distribution is somehow even more corrupt than MD (which is pretty open and obvious).

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 9:50 pm UTC
by peteispo
Why not follow the example of Pheasant Island in the Bidasoa River between France and Spain, which switches nationality every six months: that's a proper (typically European) way of solving a problem...

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 10:29 pm UTC
by Soupspoon

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Sat Apr 28, 2018 11:07 pm UTC
by jgh
What gets me about these polyps is the orphaned border joins the border running along the new river course at a right angle. I would expect it to join with a smooth curve along the line of the old river course. Following the river downstream shows an example just north of Rula and highway 159 of what I would expect - certainly that's what I find on UK maps where rivers have moved away from boundaries.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 11:45 am UTC
by pkcommando
eviloatmeal wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:It's basically stuff on bread, isn't it? Whereas pies are things in pastry*. Someone else can tell us what the difference between bread and pastry is.

Yes, hello. I do believe that technically a pastry dough must contain shortening, whereas bread dough is made with oil. Pizza is definitely bread. If you fold your slice then it might be a sandwich depending on the hot dog divide.

Pizza is an open-face sandwich, obviously.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:03 pm UTC
by toddgeorge
pkcommando wrote:
eviloatmeal wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:It's basically stuff on bread, isn't it? Whereas pies are things in pastry*. Someone else can tell us what the difference between bread and pastry is.

Yes, hello. I do believe that technically a pastry dough must contain shortening, whereas bread dough is made with oil. Pizza is definitely bread. If you fold your slice then it might be a sandwich depending on the hot dog divide.

Pizza is an open-face sandwich, obviously.


Unless you fold it length-wise like done in NY. Then it's a taco.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:00 pm UTC
by sonar1313
wumpus wrote:The Potomac river is the border of Maryland and Virginia, with the curious property that the entire river is part of Maryland. As far as I know, the only real difference is that you could have a building on the Virginia shore that sold VA lottery tickets, and also have a cash register on a floating pier selling MD ones as well (and also any item taxed lighter/available less expensive* than in VA). In practice I've never heard of this being done (also VA is allowed to take water from the river without the consent of MD. This isn't as big a deal as it would be in the western parts of the US).

* While I expect the official tax is lower on just about everything in VA, alcohol is typically more expensive. I'm guessing alcohol distribution is somehow even more corrupt than MD (which is pretty open and obvious).


I wish I could find it, but I can't: I read a story once about a gas station that existed on top of a border between two states, which I think were New York and Connecticut. The gas pumps and the store were in New York, but the guy had set up a trailer on the Connecticut side where he sold cigarettes, thanks to New York's way-higher taxes on them.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:44 pm UTC
by eviloatmeal
toddgeorge wrote:
pkcommando wrote:
eviloatmeal wrote:
AndrewGPaul wrote:It's basically stuff on bread, isn't it? Whereas pies are things in pastry*. Someone else can tell us what the difference between bread and pastry is.

Yes, hello. I do believe that technically a pastry dough must contain shortening, whereas bread dough is made with oil. Pizza is definitely bread. If you fold your slice then it might be a sandwich depending on the hot dog divide.

Pizza is an open-face sandwich, obviously.


Unless you fold it length-wise like done in NY. Then it's a taco.


I thought tacos were the hard-shelled ones. A folded pizza is more a quesadilla.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:27 pm UTC
by DavidSh
eviloatmeal wrote:Yes, hello. I do believe that technically a pastry dough must contain shortening, whereas bread dough is made with oil. Pizza is definitely bread. If you fold your slice then it might be a sandwich depending on the hot dog divide.


Pizza as I know it, sometimes called "New York pizza", is bread-based, but Chicago pizza seems to use shortening in its crust.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:45 pm UTC
by DanD
wumpus wrote:The Potomac river is the border of Maryland and Virginia, with the curious property that the entire river is part of Maryland. As far as I know, the only real difference is that you could have a building on the Virginia shore that sold VA lottery tickets, and also have a cash register on a floating pier selling MD ones as well (and also any item taxed lighter/available less expensive* than in VA). In practice I've never heard of this being done (also VA is allowed to take water from the river without the consent of MD. This isn't as big a deal as it would be in the western parts of the US).

* While I expect the official tax is lower on just about everything in VA, alcohol is typically more expensive. I'm guessing alcohol distribution is somehow even more corrupt than MD (which is pretty open and obvious).


Sales tax in MD and Northern VA and Hampton Rhodes are equal. (Lower in the rest of VA by 0.7%). On the other hand, non-prepared food is tax exempt in MD, and only tax discounted in VA, so that might be your pier side item. (Except that I think piers are inherently in the jurisdiction of the land they connect to, regardless of the water ownership).

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:57 pm UTC
by sonar1313
DavidSh wrote:
eviloatmeal wrote:Yes, hello. I do believe that technically a pastry dough must contain shortening, whereas bread dough is made with oil. Pizza is definitely bread. If you fold your slice then it might be a sandwich depending on the hot dog divide.


Pizza as I know it, sometimes called "New York pizza", is bread-based, but Chicago pizza seems to use shortening in its crust.


Chicago pizza is really just tomato casserole.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:46 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
eviloatmeal wrote:I thought tacos were the hard-shelled ones. A folded pizza is more a quesadilla.
That may be true, but it's because of the cheese (which traditional tacos often don't have), not the soft "shell" (which traditional tacos do have).

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:58 pm UTC
by Pfhorrest
Pizzas are pastriformes because the bread is cooked with the contents already in it. Whereas quesadillas are tacoformes because they are open-faced wraps; even though unlike tacos proper they are cooked after adding the contents, the bread was already fully cooked first.

(For reference: pastriformes and sandwiformes are sibling taxons. Sandwiches and wraps are the child taxons of sandwiformes, each in turn having an open- and closed-faced child taxon of its own, with those of the wraps being respectively tacoformes and burritoformes. Hot dogs are tacoformes).

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:31 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
(For anyone who's confused about the sudden introduction of terms like "sandwiformes" into this thread, it's because we've had this discussion before and Pfhorrest came up with a fairly comprehensive taxonomy at that time.)

Pfhorrest wrote:Pizzas are pastriformes because the bread is cooked with the contents already in it. Whereas quesadillas are tacoformes because they are open-faced wraps; even though unlike tacos proper they are cooked after adding the contents, the bread was already fully cooked first.
While it's of course true that a proper taxonomy takes into account how something comes to be rather than simply what the finished result looks like, there is definitely a qualitative similarity between a quesadilla and a folded pizza or calzone.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:41 pm UTC
by rmsgrey
gmalivuk wrote:(For anyone who's confused about the sudden introduction of terms like "sandwiformes" into this thread, it's because we've had this discussion before and Pfhorrest came up with a fairly comprehensive taxonomy at that time.)

Pfhorrest wrote:Pizzas are pastriformes because the bread is cooked with the contents already in it. Whereas quesadillas are tacoformes because they are open-faced wraps; even though unlike tacos proper they are cooked after adding the contents, the bread was already fully cooked first.
While it's of course true that a proper taxonomy takes into account how something comes to be rather than simply what the finished result looks like, there is definitely a qualitative similarity between a quesadilla and a folded pizza or calzone.


When preparing food, the preparation methods are a relevant distinction; when consuming it, the qualitative properties of the food are more relevant than how it comes to be in the first place.

Whether the chef's taxonomy is the best nomenclature for the diners to use is an open question.

Re: 1986: River Border

Posted: Thu May 03, 2018 6:40 am UTC
by eviloatmeal
rmsgrey wrote:When preparing food, the preparation methods are a relevant distinction; when consuming it, the qualitative properties of the food are more relevant than how it comes to be in the first place.

Whether the chef's taxonomy is the best nomenclature for the diners to use is an open question.


So what you're saying is that before serving, a pizza is just a really messy focaccia. Then, when a diner decides to fold a particularly meaty slice and bite into it from the end, it inherits the form of a hot dog.

I could get behind this.