1541: "Voice"

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zombie_monkey
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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby zombie_monkey » Tue Jun 23, 2015 2:37 pm UTC

ucim wrote:Can you read aloud things you're making up as you go along, in your mind?


EDITED: I don't think I can do that, I think I misinterpreted your question.
OLD REST-OF-THE-POST: I revise things many, many times until they sound good. I also started reading at a very early age, three or four years old, so I think that has something to do with why I'm an outlier in that respect (I mean that as correlation, not causation).

EDIT II: This is getting very meta.

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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby peregrine_crow » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:16 pm UTC

billyswong wrote:Strange that still nobody mention/remember this:
http://animorphs.wikia.com/wiki/Yeerk

Someone did:
Showsni wrote:Have to keep me away from Kandrona rays for three days?

Also, I was totally going to post something animorphs related, but I couldn't figure out a catchy way to do it before showsni did.
Ignorance killed the cat, curiosity was framed.

Tevildo
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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby Tevildo » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:16 pm UTC

Sounds like utter crap, otherwise we'd see left-right brain separation in other primates and mammals.

The point is that humans have a unique form of consciousness not seen in other animals. Drawing parallels and creating hierarchies is dangerous. Some people rate wolves and dogs as highly intelligent, for instance, because they display meta-knowledge, despite other animals have much better problem-solving and language abilities. (And nobody gives otters enough credit.)

Human consciousness is awkward, bad at making decisions, and not well understood. We know even less about how it developed. A progression from external commands to internal commands to external conversation to internal conversation may not be overwhelmingly likely, but it's no less likely than anything else.

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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby billyswong » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:24 pm UTC

peregrine_crow wrote:
billyswong wrote:Strange that still nobody mention/remember this:
http://animorphs.wikia.com/wiki/Yeerk

Someone did:
Showsni wrote:Have to keep me away from Kandrona rays for three days?

Also, I was totally going to post something animorphs related, but I couldn't figure out a catchy way to do it before showsni did.

Oh, missed that, me bad

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Whizbang
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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby Whizbang » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:36 pm UTC

Tevildo wrote:
Sounds like utter crap, otherwise we'd see left-right brain separation in other primates and mammals.

The point is that humans have a unique form of consciousness not seen in other animals. Drawing parallels and creating hierarchies is dangerous. Some people rate wolves and dogs as highly intelligent, for instance, because they display meta-knowledge, despite other animals have much better problem-solving and language abilities. (And nobody gives otters enough credit.)

Human consciousness is awkward, bad at making decisions, and not well understood. We know even less about how it developed. A progression from external commands to internal commands to external conversation to internal conversation may not be overwhelmingly likely, but it's no less likely than anything else.



Oh, sure. Human brains have developed rapidly over the past couple million years. For sure there have been times (probably even currently) when human brains have run into issues with this rapid growth and cognative problems have occurred on a wide scale, but lack of left-right brain connectivity is most likely not the cause, unless you refine that to very specific parts of the brain lacking this connectivity or something.

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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:52 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:I came across a theory a while back that up until early historical times, humans actually did have split personalities as a matter of course - that right-left brain integration and a single unified ego is a very recent development... No idea how solid the theory is/was, but it prompts some vaguely interesting speculation about the nature of identity...

As far as I know, corpus callosotomy does not result in what people usually call "split personalities". The brain still has a strong illusion of its unity even when it's clearly unwarranted.

But that makes the nature of identity even more interesting.


There are a few fairly well-known anecdotes about people with split brains where the two sides don't co-operate - one example is a video of a man trying to read a newspaper with his left arm, while his right arm is batting it out of the way of the TV. That suggests that each side of the brain is capable of supporting a consciousness without direct communication with the other side's mind. Normally there is co-ordination between the two, and a strong perception of a single ego, but that can break down in cases of brain damage...

Dissociative identity disorder isn't the same thing at all - it's a case of having different personae that occupy the entire consciousness at different times rather than occupying different parts of consciousness all the time...

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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby zombie_monkey » Tue Jun 23, 2015 3:52 pm UTC

The difference between "left-brained" and "right-brained" people is mostly pop-psychology nonsense. And, of course, it has nothing to do with Dissociative identity disorder.

What I find most interesting as an area of research in neuroscience now is the Default mode network.

rmsgrey wrote:There are a few fairly well-known anecdotes about people with split brains where the two sides don't co-operate - one example is a video of a man trying to read a newspaper with his left arm, while his right arm is batting it out of the way of the TV. That suggests that each side of the brain is capable of supporting a consciousness without direct communication with the other side's mind. Normally there is co-ordination between the two, and a strong perception of a single ego, but that can break down in cases of brain damage...

Dissociative identity disorder isn't the same thing at all - it's a case of having different personae that occupy the entire consciousness at different times rather than occupying different parts of consciousness all the time...


Exactly.
By the way, in neuroscience right now, we are at the level of alchemy, at best. I am very excited at the prospects.

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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby Kit. » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:02 pm UTC

Tevildo wrote:The point is that humans have a unique form of consciousness not seen in other animals.
...
Human consciousness is awkward, bad at making decisions, and not well understood. We know even less about how it developed. A progression from external commands to internal commands to external conversation to internal conversation may not be overwhelmingly likely, but it's no less likely than anything else.

What do you exactly mean by "consciousness" here?

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Pfhorrest
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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:16 pm UTC

The kind of consciousness under discussion in general here is what philosophers call "access consciousness" (as distinguished from "phenomenal consciousness") and is basically equivalent to the ability to introspect: to have awareness of your own internal mental functions.
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Bounty
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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby Bounty » Tue Jun 23, 2015 6:37 pm UTC

zombie_monkey wrote:
ucim wrote:Can you read aloud things you're making up as you go along, in your mind?


EDITED: I don't think I can do that, I think I misinterpreted your question.
OLD REST-OF-THE-POST: I revise things many, many times until they sound good. I also started reading at a very early age, three or four years old, so I think that has something to do with why I'm an outlier in that respect (I mean that as correlation, not causation).


I've been increasingly interested in this as my wife is a consummate mumbler, I hear her subvocalizing as she reads, and I really don't think she can read without doing so. My son isn't nearly as bad as she is, but he does it on occasion too. He, however, appears to have almost no inner monologue. I get that being under 10, some of that might be developmental, but it seems he rarely has a thought he doesn't choose to express aloud. I've found as I've gotten over 30 that subvocalizing while reading increases comprehension, and allows me to better focus on the writing to block out distractions*. I can read 'in my head', including things I'm 'writing' drafting papers of pure thought through a revision or two before I commit them to paper (or screen). I also occasionally hold conversions in my head with characters about their motivations, or insert myself into the story to change a key point, and then watch how the story evolves from there.


I'm going to also say your reading start probably isn't overly significant, as both my wife and I started reading at four, my son as well, and we're all across the spectrum on this.

Personally I've got an over active internal dialogue. There's a half dozen archetypes that I 'talk' with on a regular basis. I've also been known to consult 'memory images' of close friends and family when dealing with things in their area of expertise; my grandmother, passed for over a decade now, often talks me through cooking issues. But I also have childhood memories (again, 4-5 years old) of playing games with Cartoon Characters in the front yard, so my grip on consensual reality was never the strongest to begin with.

ucim wrote:And welcome peterdroberts!

peterdroberts wrote:Do you understand the constant frustration of feeling something one month and only being able to express it the next month, when you are carefree and chatty?
No, having never felt it I don't understand it. But I can accept it once I know it's a thing. I find that, in the next month when I'm carefree and chatty, I no longer remember the feeling from the previous month, so cannot express it. Do you remember it well enough to do so? That would be a gift if it could be channeled (i.e. into creative writing or music).

Jose

Yes, welcome!

And I do know what you mean peterdroberts, though I'm not diagnosed bipolar myself. My swings have never been as severe as yours sound, but yeah, when you're up you're up, and when you're down you're down, and trying to explain to someone why you're there, or even what it was like when you weren't there... the words just don't exist in any language I've ever known.

EDIT: *As an aside, when I say distractions I mean I've always had a hard time not 'hearing' everything in earshot. Last night at dinner I mistakenly commented on something the party 4 tables over was discussing, and everyone looked at me like I was crazy. Crazier. than normal. anyways. Sometimes there's just to many input streams, and hearing what I'm reading while I'm reading it helps focus the data.

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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby Kit. » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:42 pm UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:The kind of consciousness under discussion in general here is what philosophers call "access consciousness" (as distinguished from "phenomenal consciousness") and is basically equivalent to the ability to introspect: to have awareness of your own internal mental functions.

Can it somehow be measured in beings that don't share the common language with the experimenter?

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Pfhorrest
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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Jun 23, 2015 7:58 pm UTC

Kit. wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:The kind of consciousness under discussion in general here is what philosophers call "access consciousness" (as distinguished from "phenomenal consciousness") and is basically equivalent to the ability to introspect: to have awareness of your own internal mental functions.

Can it somehow be measured in beings that don't share the common language with the experimenter?

I'm not sure. If you could reverse-engineer a being's brain (or brain-equivalent), then sure, because it's just a particular functionality that we're looking for, so once you can watch the functioning of a being's thought processes thoroughly, you can easily look for such a function. Failing that, outward signs if we treat the being as a black box, and can't ask it questions about its internal states to see if it can answer them? I guess we'd have to observe its nonverbal behavior and see if there's any signs in such behavior that indicate self-awareness. I've heard of the "can it recognize itself in the mirror?" test being something like this, though I'm not sure exactly how that works.

Someone in here mentioned earlier that wolves show meta-cognition, and I was wondering how exactly whoever did that study arrived at that conclusion. How do you observe meta-cognition in non-verbal creatures?
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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby Kit. » Tue Jun 23, 2015 10:28 pm UTC

We might be able to tell if a being has awareness of its mental functions by looking for the signs of it using this awareness to corrects the errors in its own thought process. However, if we try to apply this to an average (IQ 100) human, we may actually fail to detect such awareness.

Or we can speculate that this kind of awareness has developed to discover (and exploit) the errors in the thought processes of the competitors, so we can look for the signs of learning and exploiting such errors... and find them in, say, macaques. Anyway, if such sort of awareness appeared as a tool to analyze the thoughts of others, there is no reason why it would lead to the voices in one's head commanding what one ought to do.

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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby 5th Earth » Wed Jun 24, 2015 7:18 am UTC

ucim wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:I think I've heard of that theory as well... [...] I don't remember who the author behind that idea was, do you?
Sounds like Julian Jaynes: The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.



Also, the inspiration for Neal Stephenson's first book, The Big U.
It seemed like a good idea at the time.

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Re: 1541: "Voice"

Postby grkvlt » Sat Jun 27, 2015 8:53 pm UTC

5th Earth wrote:
ucim wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:I think I've heard of that theory as well... [...] I don't remember who the author behind that idea was, do you?
Sounds like Julian Jaynes: The Origin of Consciousness in the Breakdown of the Bicameral Mind.



Also, the inspiration for Neal Stephenson's first book, The Big U.


No, it was Snow Crash that took (in part) inspiration from Jaynes theories, among many other diverse influences. The Big U was his satire on American University life, and is not on the same level as his later novels, although worth reading to get a sense of how he has developed as an author.
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