1417: "Seven"

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:00 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Besides, everyone knows that Mexico and Canada and Belize and Costa Rica and El Salvador and Guatemala and Honduras and Nicaragua and Cuba and assorted Caribbean Islands are all just parts of the US anyway, so there's no need to distinguish a resident of North America from a resident of the US...

"North American" covers all of those (including Americans), and they've each got a specific demonym if you want to specify them specifically. The question is what is the USA-specific demonym? And the United States of America is the only country with "America" in its name, but it is not the only country with "United States" in its name (not even the only one in North America; just south of it is the United States of Mexico. There also used to be United States of Brazil, Columbia, Venezuela, and Central America, respectively; and that's before we even look at the Old World). So unless you want to make up something new and unrelated just to be a demonym, there's no more natural demonym for people from the United States of America than "American".
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Klear » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:23 pm UTC

da Doctah wrote:You left out the most culturally significant Set of Seven in history! One of those dwarves should be named "Mrs Howell".

Then there's the Seven Things Not Beginning With K That The Letter K Is An Abbreviation For:

  • black
  • strikeout
  • potassium
  • absolute temperature
  • one thousand
  • one thousand twenty-four
  • federal reserve bank of Dallas

(A real set that some of us should recognize: Ionian, Dorian, Phrygian, Lydian, Mixolydian, Aeolian and Locrian.)


Wikipedia disagrees. Plus kilo begins with the letter K, as does Kelvin and potassium in Latin.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby schapel » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:27 pm UTC

Klear wrote:This never happened to me, but I have some paired memories that I often have trouble remembering both at once, for example, two of Czech best composers are Bedřich Smetana and Antonín Dvořák. Very often (luckily not now) when I think of one of them, I'm incapable of remembering the name of the other.

I have a couple ore pairs like this, though it so happens I can't think of any right now.

That's very meta!

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby KnightExemplar » Fri Sep 05, 2014 7:33 pm UTC

Data Link is the 2nd layer to the OSI Networking Model.

http://www.cisco1900router.com/wp-conte ... -model.gif

Layer 1: physical layer
Layer 2: data link layer
Layer 3: network layer
Layer 4: transport layer
Layer 5: session layer
Layer 6: presentation layer
Layer 7: application layer
First Strike +1/+1 and Indestructible.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Pfhorrest » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:15 pm UTC

Or second to last (as depicted in the comic), if you count from "top" (most superficial, i.e. application layer) "down".

I was actually wondering whether the items from each set are the appropriate item for that place in that set. Assuming the set has an ordering to begin with. Green is in the right place (fourth in the ordered set of Newtonian colors), as is Phylum (second in the ordered set of Linnaean taxonomic ranks), and the Seventh Seal obviously (seventh... duh). Monday is the first day of the week by some reckonings, so I'd count that one too. Wikipedia tells me Synergize is in fact the sixth Habit of Highly Effective People, and that sloth is the fourth Deadly Sin, so those are in the right places too.

But I'm not sure if the dwarfs, continents, layers of dip, wonders of the ancient world, climate zones and/or seas, sister colleges, or Pleiades, have intrinsic orderings or not.
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Fri Sep 05, 2014 8:43 pm UTC

operagost wrote:
Diadem wrote:I didn't get all the references, I have to admit. Over here we have 5 continents, not 7 (though personally I disagree with both of those statements).


I definitely disagree with the European convention of considering the Americas one continent. There is a plate separation at the Isthmus of Panama, and evidence suggests this area was underwater in the past. We've also basically split them with the canal.

It also would be nice to discard the notion of single American continent because I'm sick of European trolls calling me a "USian". Apparently, hordes of Spanish and Portuguese-speaking peoples of other nations like to call themselves "Americans" in English, for some curious reason.

I think it's ridiculous to count the Suez canal, it has bridges that aren't even that large and needs to be dredged to maintain the canal. But it's not really relevant here as there is no English word for the Dutch word "continent". I also think it's ridiculous to call the small landmasses Australia and Antarctica continents leaving America and Afro-Eurasia...

As for the demonym: if you don't come up with an unambiguous demonym yourself someone will do it for you... We could of course switch to Hutch or something like that :P.
Diadem wrote:I didn't get all the references, I have to admit. Over here we have 5 continents, not 7 (though personally I disagree with both of those statements). So my first thought was 'moons of Jupiter' but of course there are many more than 7, so then I was trying to figure out whether the continent or the moon was meant, and who they fit in a list of 7. And I've never heard of 7 layers of dip. Is that an American thing?

The alt text was even harder. So well done, Randall.

That's because the English word "continent" doesn't translate to the Dutch world "continent" but to the Dutch word "werelddeel". Just don't insist on translating to false cognates. Of course, Antartica is often skipped in the Netherlands as it's mostly uninhabited.
LockeZ wrote:
HES wrote:
hetas wrote:Never take granted anything you were taught in school.

The later years of school basically consisted of "everything you were taught before is wrong".

In fourth grade we were taught the list of specific modern list seven seas that Wikipedia has an objectionable "weasel words" flag on. If I still had my textbook I could add a citation to that motherfucker. Of course, we also learned that the sun was the biggest star in the universe.

operagost wrote:I'm sick of people calling the US "America".


Too bad, it's our country, we get to call it whatever we want!

If we follow the logic of the US government consistently you probably need a licence to use the brand and pay a couple billion dollars to America as a whole (or to Spain, I'm not sure how that works) for every day you use the brand without their permission. Then again, their rules never apply to themselves, and only to their people if it suits them (which is usually the case with brand laws, but this may be an exception).
Pfhorrest wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Besides, everyone knows that Mexico and Canada and Belize and Costa Rica and El Salvador and Guatemala and Honduras and Nicaragua and Cuba and assorted Caribbean Islands are all just parts of the US anyway, so there's no need to distinguish a resident of North America from a resident of the US...

"North American" covers all of those (including Americans), and they've each got a specific demonym if you want to specify them specifically. The question is what is the USA-specific demonym? And the United States of America is the only country with "America" in its name, but it is not the only country with "United States" in its name (not even the only one in North America; just south of it is the United States of Mexico. There also used to be United States of Brazil, Columbia, Venezuela, and Central America, respectively; and that's before we even look at the Old World). So unless you want to make up something new and unrelated just to be a demonym, there's no more natural demonym for people from the United States of America than "American".

The problem is that it's ambiguous: it's like refering specifically to someone from the United Arab Emirates as an "Arab", to someone from Saudi-Arabia as an "Arab", to someone from England with the word "Great-Brit and Northern Irelander", to someone from the Federated States of Micronesia as a "Micronesian" or, if this ever becomes a thing, to someone from the EU as a "European". Besides, part of the US isn't even near America: calling someone from Hawai'i an American is just ridiculous, akin to calling someone from Vladivostok "European" because most Russians happen to live in Europe.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Plutarch » Fri Sep 05, 2014 10:50 pm UTC

Sauron gave seven rings of power to the dwarves. Looking at that picture, I think Guacamole might have one.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby rwald » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:05 pm UTC

squareroot wrote:Wait wait wait -- I thought Data Link was Hylian, not a Dwarf?

Close: He's a Hylian android crafted by Dr. Noonian Soong of Time.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Eebster the Great » Fri Sep 05, 2014 11:38 pm UTC

PinkShinyRose wrote:That's because the English word "continent" doesn't translate to the Dutch world "continent" but to the Dutch word "werelddeel". Just don't insist on translating to false cognates. Of course, Antartica is often skipped in the Netherlands as it's mostly uninhabited.

Well, it really depends. In geology, a "continent" is defined by continental plates. In England, "the Continent" refers to the "continental" part of Europe (excluding Great Britain, Ireland, and other islands), and the word "continental" is used similarly in other situations. On the other hand, when referring to "the seven continents" or "the continent of Asia" or something similar, you usually mean the political sense of the word.

PinkShinyRose wrote:
LockeZ wrote:
operagost wrote:I'm sick of people calling the US "America".


Too bad, it's our country, we get to call it whatever we want!

If we follow the logic of the US government consistently you probably need a licence to use the brand and pay a couple billion dollars to America as a whole (or to Spain, I'm not sure how that works) for every day you use the brand without their permission. Then again, their rules never apply to themselves, and only to their people if it suits them (which is usually the case with brand laws, but this may be an exception).

That is not even close to how branding works.

Of course we can call our country whatever we want. And other people can call it whatever they want. Nobody gets to decide what other people say. This is an utterly ridiculous argument.

As for which terms you like best, well personally I think "USian" and "United Statesian" sound really awful, "US American" is marginally better if necessary to avoid ambiguity, and "American" is probably the best except if there is a serious risk of being misunderstood. But in that case you could always go for something like "from the United States."

PinkShinyRose wrote:The problem is that it's ambiguous: it's like refering specifically to someone from the United Arab Emirates as an "Arab", to someone from Saudi-Arabia as an "Arab", to someone from England with the word "Great-Brit and Northern Irelander", to someone from the Federated States of Micronesia as a "Micronesian" or, if this ever becomes a thing, to someone from the EU as a "European". Besides, part of the US isn't even near America: calling someone from Hawai'i an American is just ridiculous, akin to calling someone from Vladivostok "European" because most Russians happen to live in Europe.

These are terrible comparisons. The UAE has no demonym at all, because people identify with its constituent emirates. If it had one, it would probably be "Arab." Saudi Arabians have a simple and unambiguous demonym that makes grammatical sense and is in common use. Englishmen are from England, not from GB or NI in general, and are correctly described as such. To suggest that "America" is never synonymous with "the USA," in the same way "England" is never synonymous with "the UK" or even "Europe" is to demonstrate total ignorance of the subject.

You have to just accept the fact that to most people, "America" can mean either "the Americas" (double continent) or "the United States of America" (country). When you realize this obvious fact, the word "American" makes perfect sense. The fact that it can be ambiguous (but rarely actually is) is just unfortunate. By that logic, maybe we should also rename our state of Georgia and our many cities with names like London, Paris, Athens, Cairo, Lisbon, and so on.

Klear wrote:I have a couple ore pairs like this, though it so happens I can't think of any right now.

kek

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby monica9999 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:37 am UTC

Aw, he spelled "Wellesley" wrong... :(

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby monica9999 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:38 am UTC

Aw, he spelled "Wellesley" wrong...

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby adavies42 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:48 am UTC

orthogon wrote:It always annoyed me that there were seven days in the week. If they had to choose a prime number, they could at least have chosen an even prime, like 8.


There are seven days because there were seven "planets" in ancient cosmology; see seven-day week, planetary hours, etc. for details.

Counting from the outside in, as the ancients did, and as you have to do to assign the days of the week correctly: { Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon }

(tl;dr: assume 24-hour days. assign hour 1 of day 1 to planet 1 (Saturn). assign hour 2 of day 1 to planet 2 (Jupiter). continue, looping around from the Moon back to Saturn every seven hours, until you assign hour 1 to Saturn again. since 7 is prime and is thus coprime with everything (including 24), this will give you 7*24=168 hours, or 7 days. then each day belongs to the planet assigned to its first hour and receives its name. thus, the relation between the order of the planets and the order of the days arises from the fact that 24 ≡ 3 (mod 7).

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby ps.02 » Sat Sep 06, 2014 12:55 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:You have to just accept the fact that to most people, "America" can mean either "the Americas" (double continent) or "the United States of America" (country). When you realize this obvious fact, the word "American" makes perfect sense.

And yet people I've met from Central and South America have expressed some confusion at the contextual implication that they are not "Americans." I didn't get the feeling they were just being snarky or playing linguistic games, either, but that it was an actual legitimate, majority view.

On the flip side, oddly enough nobody would describe me as a "Native American" despite that my natal event was in America. Nor am I generally considered "African-American" even though I spent most of my formative years in Africa.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Sep 06, 2014 2:43 am UTC

ps.02 wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:You have to just accept the fact that to most people, "America" can mean either "the Americas" (double continent) or "the United States of America" (country). When you realize this obvious fact, the word "American" makes perfect sense.

And yet people I've met from Central and South America have expressed some confusion at the contextual implication that they are not "Americans." I didn't get the feeling they were just being snarky or playing linguistic games, either, but that it was an actual legitimate, majority view.

But those people still probably understand that the word "America" has at least two meanings. They are Americans by the more general (geographic) meaning and are not American by the more specific (political) meaning.

On the flip side, oddly enough nobody would describe me as a "Native American" despite that my natal event was in America. Nor am I generally considered "African-American" even though I spent most of my formative years in Africa.

Right, that's what I mean. Clearly "native" has a different meaning here. Being "native" to an area can sometimes mean simply having your birth ("nativity") there, as in a "native New Yorker," or it could mean that most of your ancestors (at least in the past few millennia) lived there.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby armandoalvarez » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:45 am UTC

adavies42 wrote:
orthogon wrote:It always annoyed me that there were seven days in the week. If they had to choose a prime number, they could at least have chosen an even prime, like 8.


There are seven days because there were seven "planets" in ancient cosmology; see seven-day week, planetary hours, etc. for details.

Counting from the outside in, as the ancients did, and as you have to do to assign the days of the week correctly: { Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon }


Huh? If we start with Sunday, the days of the week are Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. Doesn't seem to be any order at all. Starting with Monday doesn't help. (It's easier to remember which day of the week is which planet if you know a Romance language.)
EDIT:
Here's the explanation from the Wikipedia article "Planet" in the section "Mythology and naming,"
Some Romans, following a belief possibly originating in Mesopotamia but developed in Hellenistic Egypt, believed that the seven gods after whom the planets were named took hourly shifts in looking after affairs on Earth. The order of shifts went Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon (from the farthest to the closest planet).[66] Therefore, the first day was started by Saturn (1st hour), second day by Sun (25th hour), followed by Moon (49th hour), Mars, Mercury, Jupiter and Venus. Because each day was named by the god that started it, this is also the order of the days of the week in the Roman calendar"
Last edited by armandoalvarez on Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:19 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Klear » Sat Sep 06, 2014 4:55 am UTC

armandoalvarez wrote:Huh? If we start with Sunday, the days of the week are Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. Doesn't seem to be any order at all. Starting with Monday doesn't help. (It's easier to remember which day of the week is which planet if you know a Romance language.)


This always bothered me on English names of the days. You have Sun-day and Moon-day, then there are days of Týr, Odin, Thor and Freyja (Tuesday through Friday) and then Saturn-day. Seems like three different naming schemes. I'm sure there's a good reason for this, but it looks weird.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby armandoalvarez » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:07 am UTC

Klear wrote:
armandoalvarez wrote:Huh? If we start with Sunday, the days of the week are Sun, Moon, Mars, Mercury, Jupiter, Venus, and Saturn. Doesn't seem to be any order at all. Starting with Monday doesn't help. (It's easier to remember which day of the week is which planet if you know a Romance language.)


This always bothered me on English names of the days. You have Sun-day and Moon-day, then there are days of Týr, Odin, Thor and Freyja (Tuesday through Friday) and then Saturn-day. Seems like three different naming schemes. I'm sure there's a good reason for this, but it looks weird.

Tiew, Woden, Thur, and Freya were the Anglo-Saxon gods for whom the planets were named, just like Mars, Mercury, etc. were the Roman gods for whom the planets were named. So you only have two systems: six days of the week are Old English names for the "planets," and then one day of the week is the Roman name for a planet. Wikipedia says this is because there wasn't a good Germanic equivalent for the god Saturn. Apparently, the idea that planets should be named for gods started in Babylon, and spread from there to Greece, then from the Greeks to the Romans, then from the Romans to the Germanic peoples.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby da Doctah » Sat Sep 06, 2014 6:26 am UTC

ps.02 wrote:On the flip side, oddly enough nobody would describe me as a "Native American" despite that my natal event was in America. Nor am I generally considered "African-American" even though I spent most of my formative years in Africa.
Due to the benefit of dual citizenship, this is an African-American:
Image

I always thought of myself as an American, but then this "continental plates" nonsense got started, and I was born and raised in the part of California west of the San Andreas fault.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:28 pm UTC

ps.02 wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:You have to just accept the fact that to most people, "America" can mean either "the Americas" (double continent) or "the United States of America" (country). When you realize this obvious fact, the word "American" makes perfect sense.

And yet people I've met from Central and South America have expressed some confusion at the contextual implication that they are not "Americans." I didn't get the feeling they were just being snarky or playing linguistic games, either, but that it was an actual legitimate, majority view.

They're not playing linguistic games, true, but they are making the mistake of assuming that the word "America" with no qualifiers means the same thing in English as it does in Spanish and Portuguese.

Eebster the Great wrote:The UAE has no demonym at all, because people identify with its constituent emirates. If it had one, it would probably be "Arab."
It does have one, and it's "Emirati".
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Sat Sep 06, 2014 3:32 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:The UAE has no demonym at all, because people identify with its constituent emirates. If it had one, it would probably be "Arab."
It does have one, and it's "Emirati".

I guess that's still ambiguous...

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Eebster the Great » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:16 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:The UAE has no demonym at all, because people identify with its constituent emirates. If it had one, it would probably be "Arab."
It does have one, and it's "Emirati".

According to Wikipedia, Emiratis comprise only 12-17% of the population of the UAE and that the term refers to speakers of Emirati Arabic, not citizens of the UAE.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby gmalivuk » Sat Sep 06, 2014 9:33 pm UTC

Wikipedia wrote:1.4 million Emirati citizens and 7.8 million expatriates.
Looks to me like it's pretty much coterminous with UAE citizens.
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby San Fran Sam » Sun Sep 07, 2014 1:13 am UTC

Who could ever forget the three stooges?

Moe, Larry, Curly, Shemp, Joe Besser, and Joe DeRita.

All seven of them. :wink:

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby The Devils Engineer » Sun Sep 07, 2014 3:15 am UTC

ps.02 wrote: On the flip side, oddly enough nobody would describe me as a "Native American" despite that my natal event was in America. Nor am I generally considered "African-American" even though I spent most of my formative years in Africa.


Can we just describe you a "Native African American" and cover all bases? :D

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby CrossCompiler » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:27 am UTC

There's another list for 'Sloth': Fairport Convention songs co-written by Richard Thompson and Dave Swarbrick.

Crazy Man Michael, Walk Awhile, Doctor of Physick, Sloth, Poor Will and the Jolly Hangman, The Journeyman's Grace, Sickness and Diseases.

Plus, there are exactly seven songs on the release version of the album which contains 'Sloth' ("Full House", 1970), so it's its own crossword and/or backup against a miscount.

In case you haven't heard of them, here's the 'not not notable' defence: Richard Thompson's CDs and DVDs have reached as high as #1 at Amazon in Music (current release now down to around 100). All three (Fairport Convention, Richard Thompson and Dave Swarbrick) are still releasing new material and touring. Fairport itself annually hosts Britain's largest music festival (Cropredy, now 38 years and counting). All this might also qualify them as ancient wonders, but no additional applicable sevens come to mind.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby HES » Sun Sep 07, 2014 5:53 pm UTC

Still touring indeed, I saw Richard Thompson a week ago.
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby ruurdjan » Mon Sep 08, 2014 4:35 am UTC

da Doctah wrote:Due to the benefit of dual citizenship, this is an African-American:
Image

I always thought of myself as an American, but then this "continental plates" nonsense got started, and I was born and raised in the part of California west of the San Andreas fault.

That reminds me of the comment from the Kenyan president (?) about the fact that Obama was called the fist black president of the US. He said that in Kenya, he would have been called 'The first white president of Kenya' :-)

Also: to the Dutch guy complaining about people from the US calling themselves American: You're from Holland, which is a country called 'the Netherlands', and you call yourself Dutch? Right...

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Pfhorrest » Mon Sep 08, 2014 6:14 am UTC

ruurdjan wrote:Also: to the Dutch guy complaining about people from the US calling themselves American: You're from Holland, which is a country called 'the Netherlands', and you call yourself Dutch? Right...

To be fair, in "Dutch" the country is not called Holland (that's like calling the United States "Carolina", including that there are actually two Hollands in the Netherlands), the people are effectively "Netherlanders" and the language is effectively "Netherlandish". The whole Holland/Dutch is only what English speakers say.
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Djehutynakht » Mon Sep 08, 2014 7:16 am UTC

Re: "US" vs. "America", "Americans" would be the correct demonym. For even though the continents as a whole are named "America", the country was also named "America" (probably due to it being the only major sovereign political entity (in the European style, mind) in the two continents at the time of its creation).

Although we commonly refer to the country as the United States, or the US, and no doubt it has become an integral part of the name (especially with the other parts of the Americas becoming more prominent as being American (continental-wise)), it's technically a title, sort of like "The Republic of" or "The Federation of".

To put it into context, one doesn't formally call people from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland "UKian". The UK can be used to refer to the country, but isn't a demonym for the people.

Or for instance, how "Ecuador" ("Equator") can be Ecuador despite not being close to the only country overlapping the equator. Have you ever heard anyone tell an Ecuadorian "Hey. Stop being so pretentious. You're not the only country on the equator, you know. Narcissistic jerks".

There will be confusion, sure, but it's the proper name for both.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:03 am UTC

HES wrote:
operagost wrote:I definitely disagree with the European convention of considering the Americas one continent.

Must be a continental Europe thing, there are definitely seven as far as the UK is concerned.

Not really continental. I always learned that North America and South America were separate continents. My education agrees with 7 continents.

ruurdjan wrote:Also: to the Dutch guy complaining about people from the US calling themselves American: You're from Holland, which is a country called 'the Netherlands', and you call yourself Dutch? Right...

The fact that we don't mind you calling us Dutch doesn't change the fact that it isn't our idea.
I am from Nederland I am a Nederlander and I my native language is Nederlands.
Holland is only a part of Nederland. There are two provinces called "Noord Holland" and "Zuid Holland" (that means North Holland and South Holland). Most Dutch live there and Amsterdam is there so that might be the reason why the whole "Netherlands = Holland" started. I don't really mind, although I live on the other side of the country as Holland.
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Diadem » Mon Sep 08, 2014 8:56 am UTC

The problem with people from the USA calling themselves American is not that it is ambiguous, though that is sometimes problematic as well. The main problem is that it is arrogant. Implicitly, and often even explicitly, you are saying that other people from the American continent(s) are not American. You took the common name of a group, applied it to your own subgroup, and then started insisting that all the other people of the group couldn't use that name anymore. That is very arrogant.

And none of that is the current generation's fault of course. The name has been used like this for a long time, and I understand not wanting to change a name you grew up with and got attached to. But I find it surprising, and bothersome, that so many people from the USA seem entirely unable to see the problem.

Anyway what's wrong with USian? It's short and clear, and doesn't seem to have any negative implications.

Djehutynakht wrote:To put it into context, one doesn't formally call people from the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland "UKian". The UK can be used to refer to the country, but isn't a demonym for the people.

Well that's because we already have a good demonym for the people. Why would we need two?

Djehutynakht wrote:Or for instance, how "Ecuador" ("Equator") can be Ecuador despite not being close to the only country overlapping the equator. Have you ever heard anyone tell an Ecuadorian "Hey. Stop being so pretentious. You're not the only country on the equator, you know. Narcissistic jerks".

But no country on the equator is calling itself after the equator. There is no prior claim to the name, and no confusion.



Pfhorrest wrote:
ruurdjan wrote:Also: to the Dutch guy complaining about people from the US calling themselves American: You're from Holland, which is a country called 'the Netherlands', and you call yourself Dutch? Right...

To be fair, in "Dutch" the country is not called Holland (that's like calling the United States "Carolina", including that there are actually two Hollands in the Netherlands), the people are effectively "Netherlanders" and the language is effectively "Netherlandish". The whole Holland/Dutch is only what English speakers say.

Neil_Boekend wrote:The fact that we don't mind you calling us Dutch doesn't change the fact that it isn't our idea.
I am from Nederland I am a Nederlander and I my native language is Nederlands.
Holland is only a part of Nederland. There are two provinces called "Noord Holland" and "Zuid Holland" (that means North Holland and South Holland). Most Dutch live there and Amsterdam is there so that might be the reason why the whole "Netherlands = Holland" started. I don't really mind, although I live on the other side of the country as Holland.

Actually, we do call ourselves Dutch, or rather, we used to. The old Dutch word for Dutch is Duytsch. If you're Dutch you should know this, the word is still in our national anthem. The name dates back from before the founding of The Netherlands, and refers to all the people of the area. The German word for German is 'Deutsch' and has the same origin. So while the name 'Dutch' is irregular, it's not something the English just made up.

The Holland thing though is a pure misnomer. Please, everybody, stop doing that.
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Diadem » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:04 am UTC

Also, Re: The Number of continents: In my head canon there are 8: North America, South America, Europa, Africa, Asia, Australia, Arabia and India. Adding Antartica to that list is optional and acceptable. Also not that it is Europa and not Europe. If it doesn't end in an A, it is not a continent :)
It's one of those irregular verbs, isn't it? I have an independent mind, you are an eccentric, he is round the twist
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby orthogon » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:24 am UTC

Diadem wrote:Also, Re: The Number of continents: In my head canon there are 8: North America, South America, Europa, Africa, Asia, Australia, Arabia and India. Adding Antartica to that list is optional and acceptable. Also not that it is Europa and not Europe. If it doesn't end in an A, it is not a continent :)

If you make America a single continent, then they all match /A.+a/ except for Europa and India. Alternatively you stick with "Europe" then they match /(.).+\1/, again except for India.

Anyway, India is only one of the countries in the subcontinent, so if you use that name for all of it you're doing the "America" thing in reverse.

(For the record, I learned North and South America as separate continents).
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:53 am UTC

Diadem, the implication that we have any choice in the name of our country is questionable.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Neil_Boekend » Mon Sep 08, 2014 9:54 am UTC

Diadem wrote:
Spoiler:
Pfhorrest wrote:
ruurdjan wrote:Also: to the Dutch guy complaining about people from the US calling themselves American: You're from Holland, which is a country called 'the Netherlands', and you call yourself Dutch? Right...

To be fair, in "Dutch" the country is not called Holland (that's like calling the United States "Carolina", including that there are actually two Hollands in the Netherlands), the people are effectively "Netherlanders" and the language is effectively "Netherlandish". The whole Holland/Dutch is only what English speakers say.

Neil_Boekend wrote:The fact that we don't mind you calling us Dutch doesn't change the fact that it isn't our idea.
I am from Nederland I am a Nederlander and I my native language is Nederlands.
Holland is only a part of Nederland. There are two provinces called "Noord Holland" and "Zuid Holland" (that means North Holland and South Holland). Most Dutch live there and Amsterdam is there so that might be the reason why the whole "Netherlands = Holland" started. I don't really mind, although I live on the other side of the country as Holland.

Actually, we do call ourselves Dutch, or rather, we used to. The old Dutch word for Dutch is Duytsch. If you're Dutch you should know this, the word is still in our national anthem. The name dates back from before the founding of The Netherlands, and refers to all the people of the area. The German word for German is 'Deutsch' and has the same origin. So while the name 'Dutch' is irregular, it's not something the English just made up.

Hmm, never knew it came from that. Logical, though. I should have known this, just never made the connection between our German heritage and the word "Dutch".
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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby orthogon » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:12 am UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:
Diadem wrote:
Spoiler:
Pfhorrest wrote:
ruurdjan wrote:Also: to the Dutch guy complaining about people from the US calling themselves American: You're from Holland, which is a country called 'the Netherlands', and you call yourself Dutch? Right...

To be fair, in "Dutch" the country is not called Holland (that's like calling the United States "Carolina", including that there are actually two Hollands in the Netherlands), the people are effectively "Netherlanders" and the language is effectively "Netherlandish". The whole Holland/Dutch is only what English speakers say.

Neil_Boekend wrote:The fact that we don't mind you calling us Dutch doesn't change the fact that it isn't our idea.
I am from Nederland I am a Nederlander and I my native language is Nederlands.
Holland is only a part of Nederland. There are two provinces called "Noord Holland" and "Zuid Holland" (that means North Holland and South Holland). Most Dutch live there and Amsterdam is there so that might be the reason why the whole "Netherlands = Holland" started. I don't really mind, although I live on the other side of the country as Holland.

Actually, we do call ourselves Dutch, or rather, we used to. The old Dutch word for Dutch is Duytsch. If you're Dutch you should know this, the word is still in our national anthem. The name dates back from before the founding of The Netherlands, and refers to all the people of the area. The German word for German is 'Deutsch' and has the same origin. So while the name 'Dutch' is irregular, it's not something the English just made up.

Hmm, never knew it came from that. Logical, though. I should have known this, just never made the connection between our German heritage and the word "Dutch".

There's also Pennsylvania Dutch, which is a dialect of German.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Klear » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:25 am UTC

Diadem wrote:The problem with people from the USA calling themselves American is not that it is ambiguous, though that is sometimes problematic as well. The main problem is that it is arrogant. Implicitly, and often even explicitly, you are saying that other people from the American continent(s) are not American. You took the common name of a group, applied it to your own subgroup, and then started insisting that all the other people of the group couldn't use that name anymore. That is very arrogant.


It really doesn't create any ambiguity if you consider the Americas to be separate continents. You have South Americans, you have North Americans, and you have Americans. I've never seen anybody get that wrong =/

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby orthogon » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:31 am UTC

Klear wrote:
Diadem wrote:The problem with people from the USA calling themselves American is not that it is ambiguous, though that is sometimes problematic as well. The main problem is that it is arrogant. Implicitly, and often even explicitly, you are saying that other people from the American continent(s) are not American. You took the common name of a group, applied it to your own subgroup, and then started insisting that all the other people of the group couldn't use that name anymore. That is very arrogant.


It really doesn't create any ambiguity if you consider the Americas to be separate continents. You have South Americans, you have North Americans, and you have Americans. I've never seen anybody get that wrong =/

Yeah, North Americans should really be a subset of Americans. Anything else is an abuse of what an adjective is supposed to do. That's almost as bad as job titles in our department: there's a Head of Business and Operations who reports to the Head of Operations. It annoys me every time I think about it.
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby Znirk » Mon Sep 08, 2014 10:45 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
ps.02 wrote:people I've met from Central and South America have expressed some confusion at the contextual implication that they are not "Americans." I didn't get the feeling they were just being snarky or playing linguistic games, either, but that it was an actual legitimate, majority view.

But those people still probably understand that the word "America" has at least two meanings. They are Americans by the more general (geographic) meaning and are not American by the more specific (political) meaning.

Many of them are also native speakers of Spanish, making the two meanings in English sort of irrelevant to their everyday life and usage. The continent or continents are América, the country up north is Estados Unidos (apparently this is standard even in Mexico?), and the demonym is estadounidense. Similar things apply in Portuguese.

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Re: 1417: "Seven"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Mon Sep 08, 2014 11:27 am UTC

orthogon wrote:
Neil_Boekend wrote:
Diadem wrote:
Spoiler:
Pfhorrest wrote:
ruurdjan wrote:Also: to the Dutch guy complaining about people from the US calling themselves American: You're from Holland, which is a country called 'the Netherlands', and you call yourself Dutch? Right...

To be fair, in "Dutch" the country is not called Holland (that's like calling the United States "Carolina", including that there are actually two Hollands in the Netherlands), the people are effectively "Netherlanders" and the language is effectively "Netherlandish". The whole Holland/Dutch is only what English speakers say.

Neil_Boekend wrote:The fact that we don't mind you calling us Dutch doesn't change the fact that it isn't our idea.
I am from Nederland I am a Nederlander and I my native language is Nederlands.
Holland is only a part of Nederland. There are two provinces called "Noord Holland" and "Zuid Holland" (that means North Holland and South Holland). Most Dutch live there and Amsterdam is there so that might be the reason why the whole "Netherlands = Holland" started. I don't really mind, although I live on the other side of the country as Holland.

Actually, we do call ourselves Dutch, or rather, we used to. The old Dutch word for Dutch is Duytsch. If you're Dutch you should know this, the word is still in our national anthem. The name dates back from before the founding of The Netherlands, and refers to all the people of the area. The German word for German is 'Deutsch' and has the same origin. So while the name 'Dutch' is irregular, it's not something the English just made up.

Hmm, never knew it came from that. Logical, though. I should have known this, just never made the connection between our German heritage and the word "Dutch".

There's also Pennsylvania Dutch, which is a dialect of German.

It probably has a different cause though, I suspect it was more like this:
"What's that language called again?"'
"I think that guy said it was Dootch or something like that"
"Oh, you probably mean Dutch"

While the false cognates probably arose before the Habsburgs decided to split their domain, I think the Pennsylvania Dutch thing is just a mistake.
Znirk wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:
ps.02 wrote:people I've met from Central and South America have expressed some confusion at the contextual implication that they are not "Americans." I didn't get the feeling they were just being snarky or playing linguistic games, either, but that it was an actual legitimate, majority view.

But those people still probably understand that the word "America" has at least two meanings. They are Americans by the more general (geographic) meaning and are not American by the more specific (political) meaning.

Many of them are also native speakers of Spanish, making the two meanings in English sort of irrelevant to their everyday life and usage. The continent or continents are América, the country up north is Estados Unidos (apparently this is standard even in Mexico?), and the demonym is estadounidense. Similar things apply in Portuguese.

I thought they mostly spoke English and French up north and only Spanish and Portuguese in the more southerly parts...


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