1387: "Clumsy Foreshadowing"

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DR6
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Re: 1387: "Clumsy Foreshadowing"

Postby DR6 » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:43 am UTC

Neil_Boekend wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:I wouldn't say the reverse, but more a corollary.

Foreshadowing is the technique of showing in advance some detail that's going to be significant.

Chekhov's adage about guns says essentially not to falsely foreshadow; don't show some detail early on that turns out not to be significant. Rather, it tells us that any detail shown in advance is going to turn out to be significant, with the implication that that's pattern of normal or good writing, and that doing otherwise would be bad writing or at least abnormal.

A Chekhov's Gun is the detail which is shown in advance, to become significant later.


Chekhov's guns are not as clear in movies as they are in books. If the writer takes time to describe a paperweight on the desk then it is probably a checkhov's gun. If paperweight stands on a desk in a movie then it can either be just to fill in the blank spot OR it can be a Chekhov's gun.


Actually, Checkhov's guns are most important in theatre plays: where if you want to use an object in the play, it has to be there somewhere: hiding it is possible depending on the object, but harder. The trope namer did in fact plays. In movies there are a lot of filler items, so it's harder to recognize Chekhov's guns, and in books all filler items are optionals, so if an object is going to be relevant you don't have to actually say it's there unless you want to.

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Znirk
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Re: 1387: "Clumsy Foreshadowing"

Postby Znirk » Mon Jun 30, 2014 12:37 pm UTC

Chekhov also wrote a lot of short stories, and I'd say it's in that context that his advice most applies: When writing in a condensed format, don't waste time, space and reader attention on describing something you're not going to use.

I don't have any information either way about what context his quote was torn out of, so don't trust me on this (or anything).

rmsgrey
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Re: 1387: "Clumsy Foreshadowing"

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Jun 30, 2014 2:33 pm UTC

Znirk wrote:Chekhov also wrote a lot of short stories, and I'd say it's in that context that his advice most applies: When writing in a condensed format, don't waste time, space and reader attention on describing something you're not going to use.

I don't have any information either way about what context his quote was torn out of, so don't trust me on this (or anything).


The original version: (approximately) "If a gun is on stage in the first act, it should be fired in the third" is couched in the language of theatre, for whatever that's worth.

xtifr
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Re: 1387: "Clumsy Foreshadowing"

Postby xtifr » Mon Jun 30, 2014 8:36 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:The original version: (approximately) "If a gun is on stage in the first act, it should be fired in the third" is couched in the language of theatre, for whatever that's worth.


Actually, according to the Other Wiki, the original version says "chapter", but another version, also by Chekhov, says "act".

As for foreshadowing, I think it's related and frequently overlaps, but is not a strict subset.
"[T]he author has followed the usual practice of contemporary books on graph theory, namely to use words that are similar but not identical to the terms used in other books on graph theory."
-- Donald Knuth, The Art of Computer Programming, Vol I, 3rd ed.

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PinkShinyRose
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Re: 1387: "Clumsy Foreshadowing"

Postby PinkShinyRose » Mon Jun 30, 2014 11:17 pm UTC

From what I understand from your discussion it seems somewhat like this:
Chekov's gun: anything that is described should be important.
Foreshadowing: something important is described in advance.

In proze:
Everything can be described, but doing so would make it obvious to the readers.
This seems to indicate that for literature any Chekov's gun would also be foreshadowing and vice versa.

In film:
Mostly clutter on display, explicit foreshadowing is possible.
Chekov's gun applies to the foreshadowing, it cannot feasibly apply to the clutter.

In stage drama:
Props are rare, but usually important, otherwise it's too much work to make them. Objects are not necessarily obvious though.
Chekov's gun applies to any prop, props can be, but are not necessarily part of foreshadowing.

In poetry:
Usually elaborate description of one thing but no storyline for either foreshadowing or chekov's gun.

In music:
See poetry

In graphic art/sculpting:
See poetry, also tends to cover a single timeframe.

In real life:
There is no such thing as foreshadowing or chekov's gun in real life, not everything is planned out (I think). Possible exception: certain kinds of teasing.

Did I forget something?

Scott Auld
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Re: 1387: "Clumsy Foreshadowing"

Postby Scott Auld » Tue Jul 01, 2014 4:38 pm UTC

You guys, he'll be fine - HE'S TAKING HIS TOWEL... :!: :P

TheyCallMeGawd
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Re: 1387: "Clumsy Foreshadowing"

Postby TheyCallMeGawd » Wed Jul 02, 2014 2:48 am UTC

In Dawn of the Dead 2004 we get this with both the car radio then the TV while they are in the shower.
This is why I always shower with my TV. Also it stays cleaner that way.


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