1325: "Rejection"

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Karilyn » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:20 pm UTC

sonar1313 wrote:Yes. All true. But: There are also girls and women who string guys along without realizing it one bit. They're genuinely nice, well-intentioned people, who smile, maybe even flirt a little, and then the moment a guy makes his can-we-be-more-than-friends feelings known, they say, "oh sorry, I have a boyfriend." (Or else the guy finds out on his own before having the chance to make his feelings known.) And as often as not (particularly if you've known them for, oh, say, more than an hour but less than a month), they just want things to go on as before, because they like having friends.

I love this. You know why?

Because I literally JUST fucking talked about you. Just fucking talked about it. You are the person I was talking about to Aliquid in the two paragraphs KrytenKoro quoted down below. Being nice to you, treating you like a decent fucking human being, is not "stringing you along." And treating women as if they are somehow bad people or at fault for being nice to you, is a really fucked up backwards way of thinking.

KrytenKoro wrote:
Karilyn wrote:
Aliquid wrote:I find this interesting... I have met people that share your challenge, i.e. "guys/girls keep getting mad at me for ‘leading them on’, but I am not. What the hell is wrong with these people?” At the same time I know plenty of people who don’t have that problem. Is it something about your personality that drives these kinds of jerks to you like a moth to a flame? Is it something that you do or say that gives these guys the false belief that you are interested in them (in that way)?
It might sound hard to believe, because I'm dishing out tough love in this thread, and it's going to sound ironic in the context of this thread, but it's honestly because I'm too nice. In most cases it's a person who doesn't have a lot of experience with people being nice to them, especially with people of the opposite sex. Because they have never had someone treat them that nice before, they work up the delusion in their mind that I must be in love with them, or that I'm their soulmate. So they start to think of me as their future girlfriend or something, then get angry when they feel like I was leading them on by being nice to them.

Unfortunately, as has been stated by several people in this thread, being nice to someone doesn't mean they should fall in love with you. Which is the mistake that "Nice Guys" tend to make, on both sides of the aisle. In thinking that women they are nice to should fall in love with them, but also thinking that if a woman is nice to them, that she must be in love with them.

Sooooo...you're deliberately sending out what you know certain types of guys will interpret as signals (for your own reasons, but still in the knowledge that there's a very real likelihood they could get interpreted as such). Jeebus, the poor bastards.

Wow, I'm such an asshole for being nice to everyone? Holy fucking shit. So what? Am I supposed to not be nice to anybody that I don't want to be a romantic partner? Somehow I think being an asshole to everyone I don't want as a romantic partner is not a gameplan I have any intention of adopting. Because reality is, most men I interact with don't have that issue. They understand that a girl being nice to them is no different than a guy being nice to them.

The problem is not being nice to people. The problem is people who think being nice is equatable to a romantic gesture. And it isn't. Not when you do it to a girl. Not when a girl does it to you. And treating women like they are leading you on for being nice to you, is borderline psychotic.

I'm sorry some people were unlucky to not have people be nice to them in their lifetime, and that because of that, they mistake niceness for a romantic gesture. But I don't think encouraging everyone to treat them like an asshole unless you are romantically interested in them is going to do them any favors either. What will do them a favor is learning to not think that being nice to someone equates romantic gestures. Then they might discover a magical new world where they manage to surround themselves with lots of people, male and female, who are nice to them.

So no, I'm not going to accept the notion that I'm a victimizer because I treat people nicely even if I don't have romantic interest. I would be a victimizer if I didn't treat people nicely, and continued to reinforce the notion that nice is something special instead of something you should expect out of literally every person you chose to interact with regularly, no exceptions (Quadruple emphasis for emphasis).

Requesting permission to use you as an example for Aliquid too.
Last edited by Karilyn on Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:33 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:29 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
It might sound hard to believe, because I'm dishing out tough love in this thread, and it's going to sound ironic in the context of this thread, but it's honestly because I'm too nice. In most cases it's a person who doesn't have a lot of experience with people being nice to them, especially with people of the opposite sex. Because they have never had someone treat them that nice before, they work up the delusion in their mind that I must be in love with them, or that I'm their soulmate. So they start to think of me as their future girlfriend or something, then get angry when they feel like I was leading them on by being nice to them.

Unfortunately, as has been stated by several people in this thread, being nice to someone doesn't mean they should fall in love with you. Which is the mistake that "Nice Guys" tend to make, on both sides of the aisle. In thinking that women they are nice to should fall in love with them, but also thinking that if a woman is nice to them, that she must be in love with them.
Sooooo...you're deliberately sending out what you know certain types of guys will interpret as signals (for your own reasons, but still in the knowledge that there's a very real likelihood they could get interpreted as such), then mocking them when they interpret them as signals.

Jeebus, the poor bastards.
She is deliberately being nice to people, and mocking the ones who deludedly interpret this as romantic interest. So perhaps she should be mean to everyone instead? Or she should continue handholding and babying the deluded ones even after the tenth or hundredth or thousandth unwanted out-of-the-blue advance from someone it had never even crossed her mind to romantically pursue?

If Coke makes a commercial with "America the Beautiful" being sung in multiple languages, knowing full well that tons of racist white people will interpret this as Coke being in league with terrorists or whateverthefuck, are Coke's marketing people wrong to endlessly mock those racist fucks? If I say, "Hey maybe we should let gays and lesbians marry who they want to," knowing full well that many homophobic pricks will interpret this as saying, "We should let people marry their dogs and fuck their infant children", am I not allowed to mock said idiots later?

In other words, I get to mock your stupidity even if I knew you would demonstrate that stupidity in response to something I myself said previously. I may not reasonably get to be surprised by it, but I still get to criticize it.

(And in fact, I get to say that thing even if it's in order to mock the idiots who I know will demonstrate their idiocy in response to the thing. Which I suspect is part of Randall's personal motivation for making comics like this one.)
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:33 pm UTC

No, dammit. The problem is not that you're being nice. The part you omitted from the quote? Really gotdamn important.

Its that in MANY CULTURES (including those in the west) that is a sign of interest, even if its not one for you.

Whats making you an asshole is that in one sentence you admit the existence of that culture, then in the next line say, basically, "but it isnt a signal for me so these guys are idiots to have read it as such".

Dont stop being nice, just make sure when someone makes it clear they're interpreting your actions that way, you tell them thats not what you meant. And then dont mock them for having come from a DIFFERENT CULTURE afterwards...mock them if you make it clear youre from a different culture and THEY refuse to accept that fact.

Start listening to your own rhetoric that different people look for different things in a partnership.
Jeebus.

Edit: gmalivuk, come on, thats not even analagous to what was being discussed. A better example would be...hmm, maybe a peace sign in britain? If you did it without meaning to, yay, no ones at fault. If you did it meaning peace but knowing that a totally legitimate culture will interpret it as "fuck you", youre only a dick if you make fun of them for asking, "hey, are you telling me to fuck off?" If you tell them "no, i meant it as a peace sign" and they still bitch, then yes, they are dicks.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Aliquid » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:43 pm UTC

Karilyn wrote:[It might sound hard to believe, because I'm dishing out tough love in this thread, and it's going to sound ironic in the context of this thread, but it's honestly because I'm too nice. In most cases it's a person who doesn't have a lot of experience with people being nice to them, especially with people of the opposite sex. Because they have never had someone treat them that nice before, they work up the delusion in their mind that I must be in love with them, or that I'm their soulmate. So they start to think of me as their future girlfriend or something, then get angry when they feel like I was leading them on by being nice to them.
I know that story... and it isn't always a romantic one.

I learned that lesson the hard way back when I was a teenager. There was a kid at school that was a bit of an “outcast” and had no friends. He seemed like a nice enough guy to me, so I chatted with him and was polite and friendly to him (just as I would be to anybody else). Suddenly I was his “best friend” and he followed me around everywhere. He smothered me and was obsessive. There were two options… always dismiss him and be rude to him, or spend 24/7 with him as his BFF. He wasn’t capable of accepting anything in-between.

So really this isn't about sex. This is about people who are (to put it bluntly) socially retarded. You are stuck with a difficult dilemma. Do you
(A) Treat this person with the same amount of friendliness and respect as you would any other person… and end up with a stalker, or do you
(B) Be rude and cold towards this person to make sure they don’t get the “wrong idea”. Which in turn perpetuates their social isolation.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:48 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:No, dammit. The problem is not that you're being nice.

Its that in MANY CULTURES (including those in the west) that is a sign of interest, even if its not one for you.

Whats making you an asshole is that in one sentence you admit the existence of that culture, then in the next line say, basically, "but it isnt a signal for me so these guys are idiots to have read it as such".

Dont stop being nice, just make sure when someone makes it clear they're interpreting your actions that way, you tell them thats not what you meant. And then dont mock them for having come from a DIFFERENT CULTURE afterwards...mock them if you make it clear youre from a diffwrwnt culture and THEY refuse to accept that fact.
And some different cultures are super sexist or racist or homophobic, too. If I can mock those people for those delusional beliefs, why can't I mock someone else for taking basic human decency as a sign of romantic interest?

In any case, I didn't see anyone mocking anyone else for their different culture, though I admittedly have read some of this thread from my phone and only skimmed bits of it.

Oh, also? One of the serious problems with guys like this is that they don't make it clear that's how they've been interpreting your actions all along until way too late into the friendship for it not to be weird and awkward for everyone involved.

Start listening to your own rhetoric that different people look for different things in a partnership.
Jeebus.
Yeah no shit, but that's never been the debate here, despite how many people have wanted to make it about that. Of course different people like different things, and when have I ever said anything different?

Aliquid wrote:
Karilyn wrote:[It might sound hard to believe, because I'm dishing out tough love in this thread, and it's going to sound ironic in the context of this thread, but it's honestly because I'm too nice. In most cases it's a person who doesn't have a lot of experience with people being nice to them, especially with people of the opposite sex. Because they have never had someone treat them that nice before, they work up the delusion in their mind that I must be in love with them, or that I'm their soulmate. So they start to think of me as their future girlfriend or something, then get angry when they feel like I was leading them on by being nice to them.
I know that story... and it isn't always a romantic one.

I learned that lesson the hard way back when I was a teenager. There was a kid at school that was a bit of an “outcast” and had no friends. He seemed like a nice enough guy to me, so I chatted with him and was polite and friendly to him (just as I would be to anybody else). Suddenly I was his “best friend” and he followed me around everywhere. He smothered me and was obsessive. There were two options… always dismiss him and be rude to him, or spend 24/7 with him as his BFF. He wasn’t capable of accepting anything in-between.

So really this isn't about sex. This is about people who are (to put it bluntly) socially retarded. You are stuck with a difficult dilemma. Do you
(A) Treat this person with the same amount of friendliness and respect as you would any other person… and end up with a stalker, or do you
(B) Be rude and cold towards this person to make sure they don’t get the “wrong idea”. Which in turn perpetuates their social isolation.
Yeah, this is very true. It may be generally made (by the socially inept one) about sex if they find you sexually attractive, but the underlying phenomenon exists even when they don't.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Karilyn » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:50 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:No, dammit. The problem is not that you're being nice. Its that in MANY CULTURES (including those in the west) that is a sign of interest, even if its not one for you.

No it isn't. It literally fucking isn't. If you think it is, I'm sorry you've been treated so poorly in your life. I really authentically and deeply do. It is completely and utterly unfair that you haven't had people treat you nice in life, and you have my deepest heartfelt sympathy. If I could, I would go back in time to when you were a child and be your friend, and I would drag along a dozen people with me to be friends with you too, and we'd all be nice to you and teach you that niceness is not something special, it should be bare fucking baseline that you accept nothing less.

Spoiler:
EDIT: And I'm not just saying that. I really am too fucking nice. If I could, I would one by one take care of every person in the world, teach them to be the strongest person they can be. Make them feel happy, loved, and secured. But I can't. There's not enough hours and weeks and months and years in my life. So I settled for the mere dozens of people I can lift up. And it feels so woefully inadequate like you don't even know. I may have a small army of people who say I've changed their lives and taught them to love themselves, but I wish I had the power to do it for more people. You have no fucking idea how much I want to help everyone.

Every person who says that I have changed their life, that they for the first time see their own worth. Those are the people that I derive MY self worth from. They are the legacy I leave behind. And with each one of them, I teach them to help others like I helped them. And in that small way, I leave my mark on the world. That is the value I bring.

Put under a spoiler tag because this is a brief dip into my own psychology and not relevant to the topic at hand.


I can't travel back in time though. I can't teach you what it's like to grow up surrounded by people of both genders being nice to you. But, to be honest? I didn't grow up with that either. What you can do is learn to experience it as an adult, like I did. Just because we were neglected as children, doesn't mean we have to continue to inforce our segregation from the world as adults. You don't have to accept that people won't be nice to you unless they are romantically interested in you. You can find a place in life where you are surrounded with people, men and women, who are nice. And then they could help build the self-confidence and self-esteem in you that was robbed from you as a child, and teach you to expect people to treat you right, because you fucking deserve it because you were goddamn born, and you didn't fucking have to earn it.

And then, once you've learned to start demanding more than just mere niceness out of people, you'll come to discover that instead of searching for a girl who's just nice to you to fall in love with, you can find someone who's smart, and funny, and beautiful, and all these long lists of positive traits, instead of merely that she "treats you nice."

And I want that for you. I want that for fucking everyone. Because fucking EVERYONE deserves that. You fucking deserve to live and experience your own personal world in which being nice is the barebones expected thing, instead of something extraordinary.

KrytenKoro wrote:Dont stop being nice, just make sure when someone makes it clear they're interpreting your actions that way, you tell them thats not what you meant.

FYI I do. The ones who've coped with it remained my friends. The ones who started into tirades about how all women are leading them on, or how I'm a cocktease for being goddamn fucking nice to them, are the ones that I cut off, because you know what? They may call themselves nice guys, but they aren't nice guys, they are "nice guys."

And you know what? For the ones who've remained my friends, I introduced them to friends of mine, and brought them into the circle of people I know, and taught them a whole new world of people who are nice to them, male and female. I helped teach them that being nice isn't something special, it's the baseline. And with time, I raised their fucking self-esteem till they goddamn loved themselves the way they fucking deserve to live themselves. To the point where they stop settling for people merely being nice to them.

And you know what? I think that's a fucking better life to have. I made the journey and I've helped other people make the journey. But as long as you're blaming everyone else, you'll never be able to take the first step to entering a world where people treating you nice is the bare minimum instead of the extraordinary. But you know, it's just my opinion that's a better life to have. Everyone has different ideals of what is a good life to have, and if what I'm saying sounds bad to you, or anyone else, then you don't have to fucking take it.

Personally I'd rather have the life where I surround myself with people who's "niceness" is the least mentionable of their good qualities.
Last edited by Karilyn on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:23 pm UTC, edited 4 times in total.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby hdhale » Tue Feb 04, 2014 7:56 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
hdhale wrote:Hermione marries Ron, not Harry.

Harry's kind of a drama queen, and every time he had to spend time with Hermione without Ron, it was pretty dang cold and there was no chemistry whatsoever.

It's only facepalm worthy if you think he "deserves" the main female character because he's the main male character. It was obvious that Ron actually valued Hermione as a person and friend, rather than just part of his coterie, since the second book.


Jokes aside, it doesn't hurt that Ron is modeled after the author's best friend and that Hermione is by the author's own admission, modeled after herself. Subconsciously (or perhaps even consciously) perhaps Rowling wishes that the relationship between her and Sean Harris came out differently. Certainly many of us have made decisions in the "friends & romance" area that looking back, we would have handled differently.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:01 pm UTC

First off, for fucks sake karilyn, theres such a thing as empathy, so please stop assuming that everyone who says "i can understand why this guy might be frustrated" is a perfect match for the little caricature youve created. Gotdammit.

And some different cultures are super sexist or racist or homophobic, too. If I can mock those people for those delusional beliefs, why can't I mock someone else for taking basic human decency as a sign of romantic interest?

So, cultures that treat pampering/courtship/etc. as methods of displaying romantic interest are analagous to institutionalized oppression?

Well fuck me, cause ive always been totally attracted to that. I must be a huge bigot for thinking other (but not all) people could be attracted to it too.

Edit: retracted last bit at karilyn explaining she does tell them. Those guys are arseholes.
Last edited by KrytenKoro on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:07 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Invertin » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:04 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
Ok I'm just going to break it down here.

If you act FRIENDLY towards a female and they treat you as a FRIEND that is how that works.

If you try to be ROMANTIC towards a female and they decide they don't want to date you, that's their prerogative, that's free will, that's their decision and if you try to argue against it you are saying that their decision is false without putting the thought into thinking maybe this other person has their own reasons for saying that and I really have no clue what their life story is, even if I am literally holding their autobiography.

Oh for fuck's sake. Not only is the "Nice Guy" thing the comic talks about and what most of the people are complaining about not the same thing as Friendzoning, but the way several of the defenders of the comic are formulating it is exhausting.

1) Person 1 makes advances towards Person 2 (possibly because Person 2 says they're into "nice people")
2) Person 2 rejects those advances (possibly asking to be friends instead)
3) Person 2 then chooses to date Person 3, who is objectively a sexist/racist/moronic asshole
4) If Person 1 agreed to "remain friends" earlier, Person 2 may also, at this point, complain to Person 1 about how much of an asshole Person 3 is, wishing they could find people who are "nice like you". Alternatively, Person 1 and Person 2 are in same social circles, and Person 1 is aware of all the fighting/mistreatment Person 3 gives. Very, very rarely is Person 1 bewildered by Person 2 merely choosing a jock -- usually, the bewilderment comes from Person 3 also being a beater/cheater who genuinely mistreats them.
5) Person 1 blames the colossal irrationality of Person 2 on their gender, rather than the correct answer of "their general shittiness as a person".


I love the gigantic ridiculous leap from 'made a romantic mistake as is insanely common in all steps of life' to 'a terrible person'. Wow. This says terrifying things about your perception of how romance works.

EDIT: I forgot to mention the part where- once again, the hate (specifically YOUR hate, not Person 1's hate) is directed towards Person 2, instead of the ACTUAL bad element Person 3. What that says to me is that it was never about Person 2's happiness it was about getting a relationship. Whether that's out of sexual desire or just plain loneliness doesn't matter it's still telling me that you see relationships as a means to get intimacy instead of a means to make someone you care about very happy.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby moiraemachy » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:11 pm UTC

Karilyn wrote:
TheKhan wrote:
Karilyn wrote:And this is better advice than you'll find on any of those "how to date girls" books you keep referencing. Because saying "You need to change your own attitude" doesn't sell books, but saying there's a magic trick to getting women to like you does. One is honest, the other isn't. Booksellers aren't in it to actually help you, they are in it to make something that sounds appealing and marketable. Whereas this random ass bitch on the Internet talking to you right now, has no interest in getting $20s out of you to buy a book, so I have no reason to be lying or exploitative to you. There's a lot of great websites on how to not do the shit you're currently doing. I hear constant good things about Dr Nerdlove. But who knows? I'm sure those books are working out great for you. Tell me about all the relationships they've gotten you.
Coming back with "I'm sure those books are working out great for you. Tell me about all the relationships they've gotten you." after what I wrote is a[bout as low as it gets, and it would have hurt if I was younger. Did it feel good to write that? Good for you.

Getting pissed at me because I'm trying to help you discover how to get relationships is not going to exactly help you in life.

To be clear, I think TheKhan, you and I are on the same page regarding how awful it is to try to guilt trip women into sex because of friendship. And I am thankful for your testimony some pages ago regarding how prevalent this stuff is (I had no idea). However, I think you don't realize why your rhetoric here can be offensive. While "being in the friendzone" is mostly used to frame a woman as a manipulative jerk, "nice guy" not only used to refer to the victims of the aforementioned evil women; it is also used (with this connotation, mostly by men) in order to demean men with a sexual life that is deemed "insufficient". It goes hand-in-hand with being "not manly enough", "a stick in the mud" or "a pushover". The implicit are that "real men" are seductive, have unshakable self-confidence and are straight to the point, and do not bother with this "becoming friends" stuff.

Women also hear lost from people who assume that, if you are not in a relationship, there must be something wrong with you. With men, a rough equivalent is not having enough sex. Some people are just bad at this flirting and dating thing, but, in my experience, what hurts the most generally is how often you are judged for it. This is, I believe, why your comment sounded low to TheKhan.

Of course, maybe you think this not a big deal when compared to the shit women have to go through, and that the "women don't like nice guys" rhetoric reinforces. However, it still hurts some people, and IMO hurts the message: simply using "nice guy" as a shorthand for loser who can't get sex because he complains about getting friendzoned can be read both in a feminist way ("of course he won't get sex. He can't respect the choices of women") and in a awfully normative way ("of course he can't get sex. He is such a pussy").

To be clear: I am perfectly ok with the comic, but I don't think using "Nice Guy" as diss and mocking them advances anything.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:12 pm UTC


I love the gigantic ridiculous leap from 'made a romantic mistake as is insanely common in all steps of life' to 'a terrible person'. Wow. This says terrifying things about your perception of how romance works.

Whether youre a man or woman, if youre dishonest to people, and love to bitch about your SO but refuse to do anything about it, youre pretty shitty. Ive not seen a "nice guy" formulation where person 2 is genuinely scared to leave person 3 and person 1 mocks them for it; in those cases, yeah, person 1 is both a bigot and a monster.

"How romance works"? Wtf. The whole formulation is about three shitty people being shitty and dishonest to each other. At no point have i ever claimed that men or women act like the formulation in general.

Edit: ...the part where i said person 3 should be taken out back and shot, that wasnt enough hate for you? Jeebus.

Fuckin fine: disclaimer: I DO NOT BUY INTO THIS "NICE GUY, WOMEN WANT BAD BOYS BS. AS I HAVE STATED MULTIPLE TIMES, I HAVE AMPLE EVIDENCE TO THE CONTRARY. THE PRIMARY OBJECTION I HAVE TO THE COMIC DEFENDER ARGUMENT IS THE ASSUMPTION THAT ANY "NICE GUY" AND ANYONE NOT IN LOCKSTEP WITH THEIR ARGUMENT, IS A FEMALE-OBJECTIFYING SEXUAL FRUSTRATEE. THAT PEOPLE ARE APPLYING THAT SAME LABEL TO ME, OF ALL PEOPLE, IS FUCKING HILARIOUS."
Last edited by KrytenKoro on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:20 pm UTC, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby WibblyWobbly » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:16 pm UTC

Aliquid wrote:So really this isn't about sex. This is about people who are (to put it bluntly) socially retarded.


I personally prefer "stunted" to "retarded", purely on a connotation level, but it's really six of one, a half-dozen of the other.

I have a slightly related question that maybe someone in this discussion can help with. If not, that's OK. But basically, I was a social outcast when I was younger (still am, too), and while I don't think I'm ugly, I am considerably overweight, which makes me unattractive to most women, I've found, and one in particular that I was interested in. And it basically reads like the story Karilyn and others were talking about: she was nice, and though I had a good family life, I had few friends and rather terrible social skills, so most of my peers weren't as nice as she was, and as the story went, I misinterpreted her being nice for some level of romantic interest. Naturally, I got rejected when I tried to make something more of it, and then I went through the moron phase where I was angry at her (and other women, but less so). Over time, I realized my misinterpretation and realized that being nice doesn't mean that a woman is interested in me, but somewhere after that revelation, I feel like I swung back the other way: I am told that some women have expressed romantic interest in me, but I had no idea whatsoever, because I just assumed they were being nice as a function of social politeness. So if there are such things as signs of genuine romantic interest, I'm pretty sure I'll never pick up on them, because I'm going to interpret them as someone "just being nice," and in the culture I live in, it's up to the man to ask the woman out, so I'm pretty much going to assume forever that no one has any interest in me. Any advice for that kind of loser?

Spoiler:
If your answer is "seek therapy," unfortunately, I've done that. Multiple times. No help.

I get told a lot that I'm just going to have to "man up" or something similarly aggravating and accept that I'm going to get shot down a lot. I just don't have the self-esteem to do that. Every rejection is a shot that I feel like I'm just not equipped to withstand. So am I doomed? I hope I'm not doomed.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Invertin » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:23 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:

I love the gigantic ridiculous leap from 'made a romantic mistake as is insanely common in all steps of life' to 'a terrible person'. Wow. This says terrifying things about your perception of how romance works.

Whether youre a man or woman, if youre dishonest to people, and love to bitch about your SO but refuse to do anything about it, youre pretty shitty. Ive not seen a "nice guy" formulation where person 2 is genuinely scared to leave person 3 and person 1 mocks them for it; in those cases, yeah, person 1 is both a bigot and a monster.


The only reason Person 2 isn't getting out of the relationship right away is because society paints relationships to work a specific way that they DON'T. You don't find your soulmate the first try, you don't magically cure all your problems by working through it. And people don't know that. So when people get in a shitty relationship, ESPECIALLY if they're new to it (for example, young adults, the age range most relevant for this whole situation) they aren't going to know it's a shitty relationship. They're going to think they've hit a speedbump. And then they keep hitting speedbumps, but it's fine, it's been a month since the last one, it's getting better, right?

What you are doing is acting and talking from complete ignorance of the topic. You. Do not. Know what you're talking about. There are people older than me, older than you, older than most of the forum I would expect, who have been in relationships exactly like Person 2 and Person 3 for the vast majority of their LIVES and been too afraid or too pressured by this stupid image society paints of love that they can't get out or don't want to. It's like expecting someone to take medication for their depression when all they've heard of depression is the use of the word to mean 'sad'.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby GGCS » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:24 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:
And some different cultures are super sexist or racist or homophobic, too. If I can mock those people for those delusional beliefs, why can't I mock someone else for taking basic human decency as a sign of romantic interest?

So, cultures that treat pampering/courtship/etc. as methods of displaying romantic interest are analagous to institutionalized oppression?

Well fuck me, cause ive always been totally attracted to that. I must be a huge bigot for thinking other (but not all) people could be attracted to it too.

Well, him mocking said cultures for being "super [bigoted]" is in itself super bigoted, because it isn't always a case of oppression and the tendencies for a culture's people to do things one way doesn't mean the rest of their culture is bad. Hell, there's a culture that mocks men who don't enjoy homosexuality. That's against my values, a person should be allowed their sexual preferences, but I don't claim their culture is ENTIRELY wrong because of that and can't possibly have any values or are "delusional" in any way. If that's a "delusion" then what's the truth? What's reality? The one and only American progressive way? Please.

Besides, the fact that *any* cultures are super bigoted doesn't preclude your argument that some cultures do things differently from how Americans perceive courtship and would be thrown off by us. Completely botched argument. I think emotion and smugness got in that one's way.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Epictetus » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:27 pm UTC

Realize that there are men out there who look like everyone else but know as much about romance as your grandmother knows about computers. We want to know. We truly do. The people I grew up with are getting married or have been in the same relationship for years. I hear people speak highly of it and it sounds like something I might enjoy, but I don't know where to start or how to proceed. To introduce myself to someone and strike up a casual conversation--this I can manage. Proceeding from this to an intimate relationship? Might as well be magic.

I don't say that lightly. Women have actually asked me out in the past. At the time, I either took it as humor or was so blindsided that I had to extricate myself from the situation. I honestly have no intuition about when to bring up that sort of thing (not to be confused with intuition about when NOT to do it).

So maybe I don't have quite the same background as the "nice guys", but I'm in the same situation of having spent my life failing at something those around me have had moderate success at. I don't think the frustrations are essentially different and I was very nearly swayed to the MRA/PUA mindset as so many others.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Karilyn » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:28 pm UTC

Aliquid wrote:
Karilyn wrote:[It might sound hard to believe, because I'm dishing out tough love in this thread, and it's going to sound ironic in the context of this thread, but it's honestly because I'm too nice. In most cases it's a person who doesn't have a lot of experience with people being nice to them, especially with people of the opposite sex. Because they have never had someone treat them that nice before, they work up the delusion in their mind that I must be in love with them, or that I'm their soulmate. So they start to think of me as their future girlfriend or something, then get angry when they feel like I was leading them on by being nice to them.
I know that story... and it isn't always a romantic one.

I learned that lesson the hard way back when I was a teenager. There was a kid at school that was a bit of an “outcast” and had no friends. He seemed like a nice enough guy to me, so I chatted with him and was polite and friendly to him (just as I would be to anybody else). Suddenly I was his “best friend” and he followed me around everywhere. He smothered me and was obsessive. There were two options… always dismiss him and be rude to him, or spend 24/7 with him as his BFF. He wasn’t capable of accepting anything in-between.

So really this isn't about sex. This is about people who are (to put it bluntly) socially retarded. You are stuck with a difficult dilemma. Do you
(A) Treat this person with the same amount of friendliness and respect as you would any other person… and end up with a stalker, or do you
(B) Be rude and cold towards this person to make sure they don’t get the “wrong idea”. Which in turn perpetuates their social isolation.

Oh you're right. And I don't think I need to explain to you how much more frustrating it is when you're of the opposite sex and a person's doing that to you, but instead of thinking of you as their "best friend" they think you're their girlfriend or boyfriend.

Nowadays I take option C BTW. I sit them down and calmly lecture them on what healthy relationships should be like, because in most cases it's their first or second friendship (or not even necessarily friendship, could be someone I'm already dating for realz) that they've ever had. And I help teach them. And if they get worse, then I cut it off. If they get better, I spend time and work with them on building their self esteem.

I've had about a 2/3rds success rate with the lecture. Every one of them is doing much much better after a bit of time, and strove hard to try and not be obsessive and smothering, because they are /authentically good people/ who didn't realize what they were doing was problematic. And as a part of a mutual payback for them becoming an awesome friend or awesome boy/girlfriend, I take time to help them improve their self-esteem and learn how to make new friends. And thus far I've had 100% success rate with these people going on to make lots of awesome new friends, and most of them have even obtained relationships with people, and ones that, as far as I can tell, are happy, mutual and self-fulfilling.

The other 1/3rd were NOT authentically good people, they just put on the mask of being a good person, IE the "nice guy." And I'm entirely okay with dumping those people.

C seems to be the best option. It usually reveals pretty rapidly what the person's true colors are.

EDIT: Alright this is my last post for the day, gotta go hop a plane, head to the other side of the country. Hugs and kisses everyone, stay awesome, and I hope you have a totally radical life full of more love than you can imagine.

EDIT EDIT: I just know I'm going to have some typo in this post that tomorrow I'm going to some 5 different posts making fun of lol. That always happens.

EDIT EDIT EDIT: One last comment before I run out the door. That remaining 1/3rd people? Those are the people the comic are about. Not the former 2/3rds. Option C is very useful for me to reveal which type of person I'm dealing with. An innocent person who's just socially inept, and is willing to learn. Or an asshole would rather blame the world than realize their behavior might be /slightly/ out of line.
Last edited by Karilyn on Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:51 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:35 pm UTC

Invertin: please, freaking please, stop interpreting statements of empathy as statements of agreement or identity.

Anyway: if they made an irrational mistake, they made an irrational mistake.

Both person 1 and 2 made irrational mistakes. Both deserve to be called out in proportion for those mistakes -- 2 for the original lie (which was, come on, perfectly understandable), and 1 for allowing a painful frustration get them to day something bigoted and stupid.

Person 3, as said multiple times, is a monster who deserves to be shot, and it kind of goes without saying that person 1 already hates him.

What person 1 in the comic, and in the general formulation is not: expecting sex in return for favors
What person 2 (implied in the comic) and in the general formulation is not: someone making a perfectly rational set of choices that person 1 has no justification in feeling confused and frustrated by
Also, person 2 is not: someone who owes anyone sex or intimacy.
What women are not: something that can be painted in broad strokes like person 1 claimed.

Bloody hell. Me saying "person 2 did do something to hurt/frustrate" person 1 was not me saying "person 2 is the monster, person 1 is a sinless angel."
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Invertin » Tue Feb 04, 2014 8:45 pm UTC

But that isn't what you said in the original post. In the original post you, commenting on the scenario rather than as a character within it, called Person 2 a shitty person.

I also still have absolutely no idea what 'lie' person 2 gave here because you never mentioned one at any point.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:00 pm UTC

Invertin wrote:But that isn't what you said in the original post. In the original post you, commenting on the scenario rather than as a character within it, called Person 2 a shitty person.

I also still have absolutely no idea what 'lie' person 2 gave here because you never mentioned one at any point.

They are shitty. As is person 1, and probably person 7. Calling someone shitty isnt equivalent to hate. Saying person 3 should be shot, is.

As for "what the lie is" -- it can be either where person 2 gives a dishonest reason for rejecting 1, meaning they cant correct any problematic behavior they may have, or its where they tell person 1 they want a nice guy ("women say...") or say "i wish 3 was like you", yet rejected 1. --Thats what hurts 1, not the fact that he didnt get sex, but that person 2 (maybe even unintentionally!) is not being honest about what they like/dont like about person 1.

And yes, there are examples where person 2 said nothing of the sort, and person 1 is making shit up. Thats not the formulation the nice guy thing relies on, and is an example of 1 being an even shittier person.

1 should be good to everyone, and is shitty NOT for being raised to equate special favors with romance, but for being irrational and a bigot. 2 is shitty NOT for being attracted to 3 and unattracted to 1, but for being dishonest to 1 and implicitly communicating that they see 1 as less "good" of a person than someone who is objecively a shitbag.

3, as always, should be shot for being a big ol bag of shitty arseholery.

Honestly? What karilyn has recently explained she does is what 2 should have done. If 2 did that, then 2 isnt shitty at all and we arent really talking about the formulation anymore.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Invertin » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:07 pm UTC

Well here's the problem in that you're suggesting that by being friends with 1, 2 is saying that they are less of a person. Or less important. There are friendships that are more important to the people within them than their own marriage, to paraphrase Penny Arcade 'he's not my friend he's more like my arm'. The real mistake in 1 is by attributing values to his personal relationships, like having a girlfriend is worth 200 points but he's in the friendzone so he didn't get the multiplier or something.

I still don't see how 2 is at fault in this scenario. Or at least, how they're a bad person for being at fault. 1 is directing active malice for things that are out of his control because he didn't get what he wants. 3 is actively being a bad person to someone they said they are in love with (or at least implied it by being in a relationship with them). 2 purely through human emotional connections doesn't reciprocate feelings to a friend, and then made a romantic mistake as people do.

I'd also like to say that saying 'i like nice guys' is never a lie. Generally girls don't want someone who shits on them? Metaphorically, anyway. I mean some of them might be into the literal action, you never know these days.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:12 pm UTC

I think the main difference is that i dont think person 1 is a bad person either, unless they start living the stupid thing they said and treating women like objects.

And once again, this has nothing whatsoever to do with thw whole "friendzone" thing, ive said multiple times that i think thats stupid miscommunication from both parties.

The formulation you are responding to is about the sitution in the comic, not friendzoning. I dont disagree with your views on people who espouse the friendzone theory.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Invertin » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:15 pm UTC

Friendzoning and Nice Guy syndrome are essentially the same issue though, the same basic idea of friendliness and kindness being all you need instead of the bare minimum for human interaction.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:21 pm UTC

Invertin wrote:Friendzoning and Nice Guy syndrome are essentially the same issue though, the same basic idea of friendliness and kindness being all you need instead of the bare minimum for human interaction.

...no. They are related and are often synchronous complaints of the same fool, but theyre not the same thing, and theyre...really not talking about that kind of friendliness, either. Nice Guy is usually from a guy who full-on pampers the girl, not just being polite.

I really think that differing definitions of what the complainers mean when they claim to have been nice is at the root of a lot of the vitriol on this. Yeah, it doesnt change that no one owes them sex or intimacy, but theyre rarely if ever talking about ordinary kindness, no "i said thanks to the waitress for the meal, why isnt she riding me yet?"

And again, if a guy defines THAT as niceness, he is once again an asshole who should be slapped.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby rmsgrey » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:24 pm UTC

General responses/reactions to the thread:

I doubt there's anyone out there who gets frustrated with women in general because one specific woman won't have sex with him - it's when you are unable to find anyone to have a relationship including sex with that it gets frustrating.

It's helpful and reassuring the first time someone says "I'm sorry, I'm not interested in being anything more than friends, but you're such a great guy that there's going to be someone out there for you". By the twentieth time, it's frustrating and unconvincing.

Anecdote: I've never been good at reading signals - I tend to question whether they're really there, or I'm just projecting what I want to see (I'm told maths is like that for a lot of people - where I look at a piece of algebra and see an obvious meaning, they just see a mess of letters and symbols and second-guess themselves out of anything they think they recognise) but there was this one girl where even I couldn't miss them, so I asked her if I was picking up the signals correctly - and she explained that she was in a happy relationship, but she'd been told she does give off those signals - so we parted on friendly terms (living several hours away from each other and having no history to justify friendship - just one shared interest that caused us to meet). So the one time I picked up on someone's signals was the time they didn't intend to send them...

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby gmalivuk » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:55 pm UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:So, cultures that treat pampering/courtship/etc. as methods of displaying romantic interest are analagous to institutionalized oppression?
When you use words like "courtship" you're begging the question and phrasing it in a way that is obviously about romantic interest, because that's what "courtship" means. But the rest of us aren't talking about courtship, we're talking about being nice, which is sometimes misinterpreted as being courtship by people without sufficient experience of genuine niceness in their lives. (At least, if you want to be charitable like Karilyn, this is why they misinterpret it. Personally, I think it's often instead the fact that those guys themselves simply wouldn't treat women with that basic level of kindness if they weren't looking to have a relationship, so they can't fathom why a woman would treat them that way. They may have plenty of experience of genuine kindness among men, but they see that as an entirely different category of interactions, because they see women as an entirely different category of being. Hence all the nonsense about "the female mind" and "women are from Venus" and "women are more complicated than men" and "women say they want a nice guy, but what they really want is...".)

KrytenKoro wrote:As for "what the lie is" -- it can be either where person 2 gives a dishonest reason for rejecting 1, meaning they cant correct any problematic behavior they may have
There are plenty of completely valid reasons for this, none of which even remotely make person 2 at all shitty. For one thing, there might not *be* any straightforward problematic behavior to fix. Sometimes people just aren't attracted to other people. Sometimes people *do* think other people are attractive but there's still no romantic chemistry, and it's straight-up impossible to articulate why that's the case. I recently experienced that situation, and thankfully and surprisingly it turned out to be completely mutual on all counts, but going forward it's something I'll have to keep in mind in the future if I'm rejected by someone I do feel chemistry for, and realize that there may not be any easy-to-explain reason for the rejection, but that doesn't mean she's being dishonest or anything.

For another thing, maybe there is something specific, but it's not something person 2 reasonably expects person 1 to be able to change, and so it would be rude and unhelpful to share it.

Thirdly, perhaps person 2 has previous experience with being open and honest about someone's flaws or problematic behavior, and having that honesty repaid with bitterness and nastiness from a person who went straight for angrily defensive. Ask any woman about some of the reactions she's gotten to turning men down, either in person or on dating websites, and you'll realize that this unfortunately is not a particularly rare event. And so perhaps in the case in question, person 2 quite simply doesn't want to risk the possibility that person 1 will react that way, and so doesn't tell him why she rejected him.

And in all three of these cases, person 1 might react exactly the same way as the guy in the comic, without any unreasonable dishonesty on the part of person 2.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby xtifr » Tue Feb 04, 2014 9:58 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:I doubt there's anyone out there who gets frustrated with women in general because one specific woman won't have sex with him - it's when you are unable to find anyone to have a relationship including sex with that it gets frustrating.


In my experience, this usually stems from having too-high standards. If you're only interested in women (or men) who are out of your league, you're unlikely to get far. I, unfortunately, suffer from this a bit myself, but I'm not stupid enough to try to place the blame on my crushes. Especially since I've seen just how "successful" you can be if you have no standards, and I'm simply not willing to go quite that far. (My ex-stepfather is a lying, cheating horndog who was far too butt-ugly and repellent to have managed to bang as many women as he did, except for the fact that his standards were non-existent.)

The world is full of horny, desperate men and women. If you can't can't find someone willing to try out a relationship with you, it's most likely to be because of your "no fatties or uggos" rule. Which is probably hypocrisy on your part (yes, women and men can both be somewhat shallow about this sort of thing).
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby sje46 » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:28 pm UTC

If I may input my humble thought-penny here:

I think people underestimate the effect virgin-shaming has on many young males. The idea of virgin = not being a real man is so ingrained into society (there are entire movies written about that, and it's a default insult on the Internet) and I think it affects most Western males to some extent. I've seen people become depressed or even suicidal from being "25 and still a virgin", or "22 and still a virgin" or even "16 and still a virgin". It becomes a sort of milestone through which people measure their social success and from what I see it pretty much only affects males. I'll even go so far to see men are victims of this mentality. Although women are victims to so many more things, don't get me wrong.

So if you're a depressed person who is a virgin, or maybe isn't a virgin but only had sex once or twice, or only had one girlfriend, or never been on a real date (etc) you start getting desperate to prove yourself. Not to other people really, but to *yourself*, that you can be a normal person.

Before you color the rest of my post with the assumption I'm sympathetic to the "nice guy worldview", let me say I'm definitely not.

I can understand where it comes from though. Lack of social experience can lead to a sort of desperateness that feels to you like a special desperateness that can never be sated. The more interactions you have with the opposite sex (erm, or whatever sex you're attracted to) leads you into thinking you can never develop a relationship, because there will always be that ineluctable quality that you not only don't have but you can't even figure out what it is or know how to figure out what it is. It is the pit of hopelessness. And it's a viscious cycle too, because when you *do* get in potential relationship, you are so anxious for sex that you try to rush it without even realizing that you *are* rushing it, because you simply don't have the experience and are operating off the osmosis from television sitcoms. This doesn't even need to be objectification--you could feel deeply for this girl and you want to share this moment with her and feel like a normal functioning human who gets to have sex(!) like a normal person and feel normal and socially successful. But your rushing things and general lack of social experience may creep her out and she may dump you and deny you. Which just makes you feel hopeless. And you don't have to necessarily be a virgin for all this, but just have self-esteem issues borne from society which works as a self-fulfilling prophecy.

It's understandable for someone facing that kind of pressure to result to defense mechanisms. Even disgusting ones. Even turning into an MRA asshole.

Even though I'm sure quite a few people who give this "Nice Guy" speech are actual assholes, it's also possible that a lot of them are just trying to make sense of why he feels so inadequate and isolated from the rest of the human condition and aren't sexist or trying to be sexist at all. Because there *are* shallow girls out there. And girls are humans too, which means a ton of them lie. A man may say that personality is all that matters, but he may never date an overweight girl or a girl with a unibrow. A girl may say that she cares only about personality but she won't date a short man or a guy with a funky-looking nose. Whatever. What percent of humanity are shallow? How much can you blame your lack of success on this ineluctable quality about you you can't even identify, and how much can you blame on just the proportion of girls who just aren't feeling it with you for no particular reason?

I guess my main point is that dating and relationships is a very dangerous thing that makes fools out of us all, and not everyone knows how to deal with it. Branding everyone who is confused as a sexist I don't think is a fair assumption to make. Then again I'm not really a woman who experienced this from the other end. I *don't* know how many creeps there are. I have no clue how many of the "nice guy" people are actual assholes. I'm speaking more on behalf of those guys who *really* don't understand why they can't get into a relationship regardless if they make up 99% or 1%.
Last edited by sje46 on Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:30 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Klear » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:30 pm UTC

Off topic, but this thread seems to be the fastest growing once since you-know-which. Scary. You should ease up a little bit.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Dontget » Tue Feb 04, 2014 10:41 pm UTC

I've had incredibly close, intimate friendships. I've had them with girls who have explicitly refused to date me. And in more than one case it was literally everything except for explicitly sexual physical contact. Not every friendship is going to be that, sure. But any friendship could be, and taking a "rejection" as some sort of defeat for anything but your sex drive is stupid. I'm not saying you have to have anything but shallow friendships with your friends. Some people prefer to keep their friends at a distance, and that's a perfectly fine way to live. In fact, I do it sometimes too. People tend to get under my skin fairly easily. But being single with a lot of great friends will never be analogous to being homeless, on any level.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby KrytenKoro » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:06 pm UTC

When i say courtship, gmal, im talking about oldstyle courtship, favors and paying for dinner and buying presents and all that shit. Stuff that has, and in many places still is, a perfectly normal way to show affection. Im not talking about basic politeness, and most of the examples of the nice guy thing ive seen, even in the media, is stuff like this -- the desparate nerd who does the girls homework for her, etc.

I, personally, have only ever had one person pursue me, so i can only talk from observation, not recieving experience, but ive never heard the nice guy complaint or seen it in action from a person who was being merely "friendly". Im perfectly willing to agree that a guy who is merely polite and bitches about getting rejected is an asshole. Ive not seen them (in this thread or others or even in real life) , but sure, ill accept they exist and are assholes.

But thats not whats explicitly presented in the comic, and i see no reason to assume its true of the people on this thread being told that they are "emotionally retarded", "delusional", and "sexist assholes" for even admitting that they to are confused on how to interpret/communicate affection (and they're not even attacking the people they yearned for or even aleays saying they agree with guy 1 in the comic!)

For a forum like this, where people are usually pretty good at not kicking people when theyre down, and being rational enough to not sling stereotypes, thats pretty fing disappointing, and "the term and claims we consistently use to refer to people who are socially awkward and attempt to find love through kindness dont apply to you if youre not that specific guy"...is far less than even a weak copout, especially when theyre being applied to guys (like me) who fit no part of the caricature beyond saying "i can vouch for people valuing niceness, and the people whove said these stupid things are still in real pain." (Im neither alone, friendless, nor ever been bitter that a girl rejected me or choze someone else - in fact, except for the one time they explicitly lied to me, ive stayed good friends afterward.)

Sidenote: a lot of the posters in this thread are so caught up in applauding the jeering of these "losers" for saying something stupid based on pain, that they dont realize how many genuine attacks theyre making against the ones who just post to say "ive felt that pain too, even if i disagree with guy 1's response to it."

Edit: gmal, im also assuming that guy 1 is being honest about what person2 said. If hes not, thats not even the nice guy trope, thats just dishonesty. As for the person 2 excuses - if they tell the truth that theyre simply not attracted, thats back to 1 being a liar. If they withhold the truth out of "politeness", its still a shitty thing to do because even if 1 cant change the thing, they would know its pointless to go after people who cant accept that thing. Theres no way 1 is better served by ignorance, even if all they can do is say "well they just couldnt accept me". As for the third -- sure, 2 is being reasonable to keep themselves safe. That doesnt change the fact they are hurting 1 by lying to them.

Ill clarify again: if someone expresses affection through special favors, niceness, old style courtship, thats good for them. Theres no bigotry unless they refuse to accept that other people may not be like that, and the REVERSE IS TRUE. And more importantly: no one ever owes sex, or intimacy, or even friendship to another person, but if we wanna talk "minimum acceptable standards" honesty is at the top of that list.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby shadowspinner » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:41 pm UTC

Dear Randal,
Thank you, thank you, thank you! : )
-Signed, some random chick from the internet

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Pfhorrest » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:46 pm UTC

Klear wrote:Off topic, but this thread seems to be the fastest growing once since you-know-which. Scary. You should ease up a little bit.

You must not have been around for the "Pickup Artist" thread, which was already at 18 pages by the time it was the age this six-page thread is now.

Oh shit, I must have dropped that ten-foot pole I wasn't touching this thread with....
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby BlitzGirl » Tue Feb 04, 2014 11:47 pm UTC

Klear wrote:Off topic, but this thread seems to be the fastest growing once since you-know-which. Scary. You should ease up a little bit.

I wouldn't worry about it. When the OTT debuted, it had five times as many pages added over roughly the same timespan.

You're right about one thing: this is a scary thread.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby kommunist » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:05 am UTC

I've just read this whole thing about women and nice guys and suddenly...
Men don't want nice girls either. They want them bad in all the right places.
And I believe there's plenty of complaining from nice girls about that too.
Wow. Thanks, Internet.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby WibblyWobbly » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:19 am UTC

BlitzGirl wrote:You're right about one thing: this is a scary thread.


Ha! That's rich!

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Klear » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:30 am UTC

Pfhorrest wrote:
Klear wrote:Off topic, but this thread seems to be the fastest growing once since you-know-which. Scary. You should ease up a little bit.

You must not have been around for the "Pickup Artist" thread, which was already at 18 pages by the time it was the age this six-page thread is now.

Oh shit, I must have dropped that ten-foot pole I wasn't touching this thread with....

I blocked that thread from my memory. Can't recall whether on purpose or not.

As far as long threads go, I still kinda miss "Pressures".

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby gmalivuk » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:37 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:When i say courtship, gmal, im talking about oldstyle courtship, favors and paying for dinner and buying presents and all that shit.
Yes, I know what actions you mean. My objection is to your calling it "courtship", which is an explicitly romantic word. When those behaviors aren't courtship, calling them courtship is already assuming the very misinterpretation people are complaining about.

As for the person 2 excuses - if they tell the truth that theyre simply not attracted, thats back to 1 being a liar.
What's the lie? I'm confused about what exists in this case but not the others, where 1's interpretation is dishonest if 2 says she's not attracted to him. As far as I can tell, 1 is overreacting in each of the three cases, not just this one.

If they withhold the truth out of "politeness", its still a shitty thing to do because even if 1 cant change the thing, they would know its pointless to go after people who cant accept that thing. Theres no way 1 is better served by ignorance, even if all they can do is say "well they just couldnt accept me".
Even if he knows why person 2 didn't accept him, how will he know ahead of time whether another potential partner also can't accept the same thing? Is he going to bring it up early in every relationship from now on, to check if new people can't accept it? I honestly don't see how he could make use of the information in any practical way.

As for the third -- sure, 2 is being reasonable to keep themselves safe. That doesnt change the fact they are hurting 1 by lying to them.
It's not lying, it's simply not giving the full details of one's own inner thoughts. And hurting someone isn't the same as being a shitty person. Your contention was that in every case either 1 is a liar or 2 is a shitty person, and I just gave you multiple examples where neither of those is the case. I never contended that any of them were examples that didn't hurt the person being rejected, nor would I ever so do. Of course it hurts person 1. Rejection hurts! But that doesn't mean that any of the people involved are being dishonest or shitty.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Carioca » Wed Feb 05, 2014 12:38 am UTC

KrytenKoro wrote:When i say courtship, gmal, im talking about oldstyle courtship, favors and paying for dinner and buying presents and all that shit. Stuff that has, and in many places still is, a perfectly normal way to show affection. Im not talking about basic politeness, and most of the examples of the nice guy thing ive seen, even in the media, is stuff like this -- the desparate nerd who does the girls homework for her, etc.


It used to be that women would refuse such gifts and favors from a man that she wasn't romantically interested in, as a way to avoid any misunderstanding about her intentions. That is no longer the case, sadly, which makes it much tougher for men by denying them a really obvious signal as to their odds of success.

I think guys have a legitimate gripe, when they've been allowed to go above and beyond by a woman who either doesn't consider his feelings or ignores them in order to get some bennies. Judgement and self-awareness are exactly what's wanted. (This is based on the assumption that he's acting out of a genuine desire to make the object of his affections happy, of course, regardless of whether he also hopes to receive some benefit from doing so.)

It's much easier to blame women as a group for the behavior of one or twelve, than it is to evaluate how one could have expressed their wishes more clearly, at an earlier point in their interactions together. Not ideal, but so common it's become a cliche. (Feel free to reverse the sexes here, it's certainly true of both).

It seems to me that the second guy in the comic has heard the first guy's complaints before, or he wouldn't be interrupting so sarcastically or making a point about walking away. I see the comic as being as much about endless self-pity as about "nice guys". But that topic's not nearly so controversial.

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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby firesoul31 » Wed Feb 05, 2014 1:48 am UTC

At the risk of bringing up something completely outside of the conversation, saying that the women is to blame for letting the man down because she was open to the gifts is like saying that lawmakers are responsible for smoking because they don't do enough to restrict it.
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Re: 1325: "Rejection"

Postby Soft Hyphen » Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:33 am UTC

Invertin wrote:I still don't see how 2 is at fault in this scenario.

Person 1 is guilty of: Generalizing the behaviour of a limited number of women (perhaps just one) to the entire female gender.
Person 2 is guilty of: Saying they want a partner who is X, rejecting a potential partner who is X, instead choosing a partner who is not-X, then whining about the consequences of their choice.

In my personal, subjective, and no doubt highly biased opinion, Person 2 has committed a far greater violation of reason and common sense than Person 1, and furthermore, Person 2's actions have caused more harm (to emotionally-vulnerable Person 1) than Person 1's actions (which just amount to spouting generalizations to someone with no personal stake in the matter; a mere annoyance).

Everyone generalizes. It's not a good thing, and should be fought whenever practical, but it's human nature.
Saying you want to do something, doing the opposite, then complaining about the result, is unforgivably stupid.

Ergo, Person 2 is a far, far shitter person than Person 1.
Last edited by Soft Hyphen on Wed Feb 05, 2014 3:52 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.


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