1292: Pi vs. Tau

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Mattman
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1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Mattman » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:15 am UTC

Image

Title text: Conveniently approximated as e+2, Pau is commonly known as the Devil's Ratio (because in the octal expansion, '666' appears four times in the first 200 digits while no other run of 3+ digits appears more than once.)

But all of these use Pi as their reference... I guess Randall is in the pocket of big Pi!

EDIT: PI FOREVER!!!

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby rhomboidal » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:16 am UTC

Coming soon: the Ti/Pau dispute.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Tasrayryn » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:27 am UTC

The title text is wrong. The first 200 decimal places of 1.5π in octal are:
4.5545743763144164456766617143366171162404440766665105335330776311513504520604364524762740226212061363100001776216741750712622557020442741544760057441760026766230424023460366047331305225241275347777145

And as you can see there are triples other than '666'. There are even 3 quads, albeit including a '6666'.

Did Randal get this wrong, or have I misinterpreted "octal expansion"? Or is this all just to stir up the Pi/Tau debate and give both sides a common enemy?

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Hatless » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:36 am UTC

Mmmm... big pi.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Steeler » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:42 am UTC

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Brian-M » Mon Nov 18, 2013 5:54 am UTC

In case anyone is wondering, here's some YouTube videos about it...
Tau replaces Pi: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=83ofi_L6eAo
Tau vs Pi Smackdown: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPv1UV0rD8U

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Envelope Generator » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:01 am UTC

"Conveniently approximated as e+2" took me waaaaay too long to register.
I'm going to step off the LEM now... here we are, Pismo Beach and all the clams we can eat

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Taniwha » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:13 am UTC

Of course that's exactly how ATM chose their payload size, Europe wanted 32 bytes, the US 64 bytes - we all got stuck with 48 byte packets (plus header)

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Antior » Mon Nov 18, 2013 6:15 am UTC

No. Just no.

You are an epic nerdtroller, sir Randall.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Super_Pickle » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:22 am UTC

There is only one way to express my feelings on this matter, but I can't post the correct rustled jimmies picture, because the forums dislike me.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby obfpen » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:35 am UTC

Being from the north of Vulcan (lots of planets have a north) we call it T'Pau. There we think Tau and Pi should fight to the death, only for the logical one to sod off and let some other number get the circle.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby chenille » Mon Nov 18, 2013 7:44 am UTC

Except there is no dispute about Pi/Tau, which is agreed to be 1/2 by definition.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby mishka » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:19 am UTC

Multiple Standards

We have 3 standards now.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Moonfish » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:24 am UTC

The compromise should be the Chinese symbol for Rooster: 酉.

Math is always running out of symbols and it should be more culturally inclusive anyway.

There is a wonderful story about animals racing across a river that helps people remember the order.

Image

Here are the numbers to go with the traditional symbols.
Image

Notice how the rat pushes the cat off the ox.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby bachaddict » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:27 am UTC

Tasrayryn wrote:The title text is wrong. The first 200 decimal places of 1.5π in octal are:
4.5545743763144164456766617143366171162404440766665105335330776311513504520604364524762740226212061363100001776216741750712622557020442741544760057441760026766230424023460366047331305225241275347777145

And as you can see there are triples other than '666'. There are even 3 quads, albeit including a '6666'.

Did Randal get this wrong, or have I misinterpreted "octal expansion"? Or is this all just to stir up the Pi/Tau debate and give both sides a common enemy?


There are also 444, 777 and 000, but only 666 appears multiple times.
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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby ps.02 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 8:34 am UTC

I don't get it. What's the joke? Or is it just another takeoff on the classic quip?
Stan Kelly-Bootle wrote:Should array indices start at 0 or 1? My ecumenical compromise of 0.5 was rejected without, I thought, proper consideration.

(Cleverly referenced in http://xkcd.com/394/.)

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Jérôme ^ » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:04 am UTC

And now, the big arithmetic vs. geometric vs. harmonic mean debate. I mean, obviously √2π makes more sense than 3π/2. (In a non-silly way too, because it's the integral of some interesting Gaussian function).

And even more obviously, the arithmetico-geometric_mean is the one mean to rule them all...

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby danhaas » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:04 am UTC

Pau means "Penis" in portuguese, so this discussion is quite cringesworthy for me.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby MathUhhhSaurus » Mon Nov 18, 2013 9:42 am UTC

This reminds me of how the inverse of an ohm was referred to as a mho before they changed it.

I still like to call them mhos. Reminds me that electrical engineers can actually be funny on occasion.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby YellowYeti » Mon Nov 18, 2013 10:34 am UTC

rhomboidal wrote:Coming soon: the Ti/Pau dispute.


No dispute - 'China in your hand' was definitely their best song.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Graham Finch » Mon Nov 18, 2013 11:36 am UTC


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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby kasmeneo » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:25 pm UTC

WTF? Never heard of it. To everyone with the same problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_%282%CF%80%29#In_popular_culture
It's cooler up here.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby PolakoVoador » Mon Nov 18, 2013 12:49 pm UTC

danhaas wrote:Pau means "Penis" in portuguese, so this discussion is quite cringesworthy for me.


It's worse than that. Pau is actually the slang/crude word for it, like dick or cock. Definetly weird to read this discussion.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Jackpot777 » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:04 pm UTC

danhaas wrote:Pau means "Penis" in portuguese, so this discussion is quite cringesworthy for me.


I wonder how this scene in American Pie was taken by the Portuguese scientific community...

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Elvish Pillager » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:07 pm UTC

Jeez, Randall, the compromise should obviously be the geometric mean, not the arithmetic mean.
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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Grop » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:16 pm UTC

danhaas wrote:Pau means "Penis" in portuguese, so this discussion is quite cringesworthy for me.


And I have family who live in Pau, the city.

Also never heard of tau before.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby ellbur » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:26 pm UTC

I think we can all agree 1.5pi is a turn in the right direction.
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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby patzer » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:26 pm UTC

kasmeneo wrote:WTF? Never heard of it. To everyone with the same problem: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tau_%282%CF%80%29#In_popular_culture

Better link
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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby cellocgw » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:32 pm UTC

Maybe I'm not nerdy enough this Monday [heretical outside unit, blah blah blah], but my first thought was of the opening lyrics to "La Grange"

Oh, if only we lived in some nonEuclidean space where tau was exactly equal to 44/7 :twisted:
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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby typo » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:34 pm UTC

Moonfish wrote:The compromise should be the Chinese symbol for Rooster: 酉.

Here are the numbers to go with the traditional symbols.
Spoiler:
Image

Notice how the rat pushes the cat off the ox.

Shouldn't sin(tau) = cos(rooster) = exactly zero? Or is roundoff error part of the tradition?

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Flumble » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:36 pm UTC

Moonfish wrote:The compromise should be the Chinese symbol for Rooster: 酉.

I instantly agree, for it is a rooster. :D

Moonfish wrote:Image

Am I being nerd-sniped here? (looking at the last two columns)

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby webdude » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:44 pm UTC

DOUBLE ENTENDRE, ANYONE?

In Hawaiian, pau means finished. As in done, finito, case closed. As in the L.A. Lakers without Kobe? Pau.

Pau FTW!

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby peewee_RotA » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:52 pm UTC

Martial arts studios have adopted Pau while measuring the area of various arm blocks. They've started calling this math form Kung Pau.

In a related story, Billy Blanks has created a franchise of Chinese restaurants and sued the martial arts studios over the name.
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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby waveney » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:58 pm UTC

Taniwha wrote:Of course that's exactly how ATM chose their payload size, Europe wanted 32 bytes, the US 64 bytes - we all got stuck with 48 byte packets (plus header)

Actually that is only partially right. Most of the European PTTs and Alcatel wanted 32, we (a European, with a US element) manufacturer fully supported the 64. Most other European manufacturers were sitting on the fence and playing lip service to the PTTs. If the US had stuck to their guns they would have won, more and more companies and PTTs where (quietly) moving to sit on the fence (or back us in private).

I was there and led our companies standards involvement in this (and was very very unpopular at ETSI). I eventually became VP of the ATM forum.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby webdude » Mon Nov 18, 2013 1:59 pm UTC

Hmmm...

Maybe I should've mentioned pau's rhyme, the LAU. What's a LAU, you ask? No, not a misspelled luau. LAU is what I came up with way before Terrans finally got around to establishing the NEO program. Most folks have trouble wrapping their heads around AUs. Why not express NEO distances in terms of LAUs (Lunar Astronomical Units)? That way the media could freak out the general public whenever a NEO was projected to get within 2-5 LAUs, and really go crazy whenever the number approached 1 LAU or closer.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby orthogon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:07 pm UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:
danhaas wrote:Pau means "Penis" in portuguese, so this discussion is quite cringesworthy for me.


It's worse than that. Pau is actually the slang/crude word for it, like dick or cock. Definetly weird to read this discussion.

Ah, so now I know why my Brazillian friends always snigger when I attempt to pronounce pão de queijo. Obviously it comes out sounding like "cheesy dick".
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby jc » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:33 pm UTC

Elvish Pillager wrote:Jeez, Randall, the compromise should obviously be the geometric mean, not the arithmetic mean.

Heh; you beat me to it. That was my first thought, that √πτ would be a much more useful number than (π+τ)/2.

But I suspect that Randal was trying to twerk people like us, too, by proposing a "compromise" that's mathematically much worse than either of the popular numbers. Sorta like the way that committees and other human "teams" tend to do.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby Wnderer » Mon Nov 18, 2013 2:42 pm UTC

The old compromise story. Johnny wants the whole pie. Janey thinks they should split it 50/50. Mommy comes in an says 'Let's compromise' and gives three quarters of the pie to Johnny and one quarter to Janey.

With that in mind the Tau faction changes their bargaining position to 3 * pi.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby PolakoVoador » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:06 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:
danhaas wrote:Pau means "Penis" in portuguese, so this discussion is quite cringesworthy for me.


It's worse than that. Pau is actually the slang/crude word for it, like dick or cock. Definetly weird to read this discussion.

Ah, so now I know why my Brazillian friends always snigger when I attempt to pronounce pão de queijo. Obviously it comes out sounding like "cheesy dick".


:P It's always funny to hear foreigners trying to pronounce our nasal diphtongs [ɐ̃w̃]¹. They're notorously hard to master for non-native speakers.


¹I couldn't find a definitive IPA transcription for ão. It seems it can be transcribed as [ɐ̃w̃], [ãw̃], [ãʊ̃], and maybe some other variants.

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Re: 1292: Pi vs. Tau

Postby orthogon » Mon Nov 18, 2013 3:14 pm UTC

PolakoVoador wrote:
orthogon wrote:
PolakoVoador wrote:
danhaas wrote:Pau means "Penis" in portuguese, so this discussion is quite cringesworthy for me.


It's worse than that. Pau is actually the slang/crude word for it, like dick or cock. Definetly weird to read this discussion.

Ah, so now I know why my Brazillian friends always snigger when I attempt to pronounce pão de queijo. Obviously it comes out sounding like "cheesy dick".


:P It's always funny to hear foreigners trying to pronounce our nasal diphtongs [ɐ̃w̃]¹. They're notorously hard to master for non-native speakers.

¹I couldn't find a definitive IPA transcription for ão. It seems it can be transcribed as [ɐ̃w̃], [ãw̃], [ãʊ̃], and maybe some other variants.

If even professional linguists can't agree on how to pronounce it, I don't feel quite so bad.
This reminds me that, to a Frenchman, the difference between love and death is just a pout of the lips. (It's the same as the difference between plenty and a nice backside).
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.


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