1262: "Unquote"

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby BlitzGirl » Tue Sep 10, 2013 6:45 pm UTC

gmalivuk wrote: Even if you're too unimaginative to think of the many reasons we might no longer know Star Wars quotes in a couple centuries, it would take a very special kind of stagnation for it to remain in the popular consciousness ten or twenty or a hundred millennia from now.

ImageImageImage.ImageImage = "May the Force be with you."

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby project2051 » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:25 pm UTC

Mike Rore wrote:
project2051 wrote:
Red Hal wrote:
kaley wrote:It just seems reasonable that thousands of years from now there will be a lot of today still available for anyone who cares. That might be what actually unquotes our culture.
Inconceivable!

You Keep Using That Word, I Do Not Think It Means What You Think It Means.


Ideas are conceived. So he is saying that what kaley wrote is unthinkable, incredible, that he could not imagine it in his mind... why shouldn't he use that word?



I guess 26 years must be too long ago.

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby Red Hal » Tue Sep 10, 2013 8:48 pm UTC

Don't bother me with trifles. After 20 years, at last my father's soul will be at peace. There will be blood tonight!
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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby webgiant » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:50 am UTC

Locoluis wrote:Given the fact that we're still quoting literature and religious books that are several millennia old, and given the impact that Star Wars has left in this time compared to that of other works released since quite a while, I don't think it's going to be unquoted any time soon.

Same with:
- The Lord of The Rings (Even the smallest person can change the course of the future)
- Harry Potter (There is no good and evil, there is only power, and those too weak to seek it)
- The Godfather (I'm gonna make him an offer he can't refuse)

And countless others.

Somewhere in La Mancha, in a place whose name i do not care to remember...

I imagine Twitlight and Hunger Games (i.e., "The Importance Of Having A Boyfriend") have an expiration date on them.

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby orthogon » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:43 am UTC

KarenRei wrote:Really, are these the most memorable quotes people have from LOTR? I always thought it was, "YOU SHALL NOT PASS!" I mean, it spawned a meme...

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Image

[... more lolz ...]

Always wished I'd run into Ian McKellen in a line and he'd try to cut ahead of me...

:lol:
I've been trying to think what "you shall not pass ... so better luck next year" would mean. Firstly, he doesn't say "you did not pass" or "you have not passed", so he's making some kind of statement about the future.

Second, the auxiliary "shall" in the second and third person conveys volition. If he had said "you will not pass" he would have been making an indicative statement about the future. Perhaps the student hasn't finished the course yet, but getting an 'F' in this module has made it impossible that he will pass the year: it's a foregone conclusion now but hasn't formally happened. However, by saying "you shall not pass", Gandalf is expressing his determination that the student should not pass; he will do everything in his power to ensure the student fails. Why, then, would he say "better luck next year"? Is he being sarcastic? Perhaps he's about to retire or go on sabbatical, and the tutor next year might be more generous. Or his determination only extends to this year; he's prepared to accept that the student might be good enough by next year. Or he has a pretty good idea that the student has been cheating / bullying other students / setting fire to the broomstick sheds, but can't prove it; making him fail the year is his underhand way of exacting punishment without due process.

Am I overthinking this?
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby redbird71 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:03 am UTC

orthogon wrote:Am I overthinking this?


Nop. You just pointing out the importance of tiny details. IMHO an essential exercise.

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby redbird71 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:23 am UTC

gmalivuk wrote:Even if you're too unimaginative to think of the many reasons we might no longer know Star Wars quotes in a couple centuries....


Consider the use of 'Even if you can't imagine....'. 'Too unimaginative' implies that you think that I am short of something.

And I can easily imagine sufficient knowlegde in the near future to manipulate human brains to forget specific information forcefully.
I can imagine that the amount of information generated at some stage will totally cover up Star Wars, LotR and even xkcd.
I can also imagine that after a full scale thermo nuclear war which destroys the better part of the world and gets as all back to stone age basically, Star Wars is still remembered by mouth to mouth transmission.
But I choose to imagine that Star Wars will be quoted until a mayor event changes Civilization as we know it. If you gmalivuk choose to imagine future in a different fashion... please do this STANDING RIGHT IN THIS CORNER OVER THERE. ( :wink: )

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby orthogon » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:33 pm UTC

redbird71 wrote:... Star Wars is still remembered by mouth to mouth transmission.

Eurgh. Sorry, but you've given me a mental picture of the quotes being written on some kind of waterproof material and stored in the cheeks between transfers. Sounds like some kind of teenage party game or hazing ritual... :wink:
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby Whizbang » Wed Sep 11, 2013 12:36 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:
redbird71 wrote:... Star Wars is still remembered by mouth to mouth transmission.

Eurgh. Sorry, but you've given me a mental picture of the quotes being written on some kind of waterproof material and stored in the cheeks between transfers. Sounds like some kind of teenage party game or hazing ritual... :wink:


This is how I imagined it.
Image

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby SerMufasa » Wed Sep 11, 2013 1:13 pm UTC

I wonder when will be the last 9/11 people post remembrances/pics of 9/11/2001 on their Facebook page
(note there are three possible ending points for this one)
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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:12 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Second, the auxiliary "shall" in the second and third person conveys volition. If he had said "you will not pass" he would have been making an indicative statement about the future.


The way I learned "will" and "shall" is that "will" indicates an intention (on the part of the subject, not necessarily the speaker) while "shall" indicates a fated outcome, so "You shall not pass" is a prediction of fact; "You will not pass" is more like a prediction that they'll give up before getting past.

The classic joke is that of the man in the water who, in the stress of the moment, says "I will drown and nobody shall save me" (a statement that he intends to drown and a prediction that attempts to save him would be unsuccessful) so, the bystanders being polite, they comply with his stated intent and allow him to die. Had he said "I shall drown and nobody will save me" (a prediction that he is going to drown and a statement that no attempt to save him would be made) then the bystanders would have been happy to prove him wrong on both counts.

Obviously, statements about other people's intentions are somewhat suspect so in general usage, "Randall will post a new xkcd strip on Friday" gets treated more as a routine prediction, while "Randall shall post a new xkcd strip on Friday" is treated as having the additional implication that I have some reason to be absolutely certain it'll happen rather than just expecting it. With the first person, "I shall check the xkcd comic on Friday" is a routine prediction, while "I will check the xkcd comic on Friday" is more emphatic since it suggests not only that it is going to happen (without my having any agency in the matter) but that it's going to happen because I want it to.


Of course, in common usage, both "will" and "shall" are predictions about the future, with the difference being one of emphasis and shading rather than of primary meaning.

In technical contexts, I'm told, it's not uncommon for product specifications to include "the product shall" for requirements that are non-negotiable and "the product will" for requirements that have some scope for slippage or negotiation.

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby orthogon » Wed Sep 11, 2013 3:37 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
orthogon wrote:Second, the auxiliary "shall" in the second and third person conveys volition. If he had said "you will not pass" he would have been making an indicative statement about the future.


The way I learned "will" and "shall" is that "will" indicates an intention (on the part of the subject, not necessarily the speaker) while "shall" indicates a fated outcome, so "You shall not pass" is a prediction of fact; "You will not pass" is more like a prediction that they'll give up before getting past.

The classic joke is that of the man in the water who, in the stress of the moment, says "I will drown and nobody shall save me" (a statement that he intends to drown and a prediction that attempts to save him would be unsuccessful) so, the bystanders being polite, they comply with his stated intent and allow him to die. Had he said "I shall drown and nobody will save me" (a prediction that he is going to drown and a statement that no attempt to save him would be made) then the bystanders would have been happy to prove him wrong on both counts.

Obviously, statements about other people's intentions are somewhat suspect so in general usage, "Randall will post a new xkcd strip on Friday" gets treated more as a routine prediction, while "Randall shall post a new xkcd strip on Friday" is treated as having the additional implication that I have some reason to be absolutely certain it'll happen rather than just expecting it. With the first person, "I shall check the xkcd comic on Friday" is a routine prediction, while "I will check the xkcd comic on Friday" is more emphatic since it suggests not only that it is going to happen (without my having any agency in the matter) but that it's going to happen because I want it to.


Of course, in common usage, both "will" and "shall" are predictions about the future, with the difference being one of emphasis and shading rather than of primary meaning.

In technical contexts, I'm told, it's not uncommon for product specifications to include "the product shall" for requirements that are non-negotiable and "the product will" for requirements that have some scope for slippage or negotiation.


I learned this rule (which is a bit like your "Obviously ..." paragraph): it's one way for the first person, but it swaps around for the second and third, hence Gandalf's "shall" is an intention rather than a prediction. This seems surprising when stated as a rule, but seems far more plausible if you consider that it's "you shall go to the ball" but "I will survive". Your explanation for why it's that way is intriguing.

I guess that in normal speech, "will" is generally more common and can have both meanings whereas "shall" sounds a bit formal; nevertheless if "shall" is used, it still retains the special meaning for me.

Regarding technical usage, I've worked quite a lot with ETSI specifications: ETSI define all the auxiliaries that you are allowed to use. In their world, "shall" sets down a requirement, i.e. the document is mandating that something be done a particular way, whereas "will" denotes inevitability, i.e. something will happen as a natural result of something else. For example, you might say "the CRC field shall be calculated according to annex G. The resulting checksum will be 32 bits long".
xtifr wrote:... and orthogon merely sounds undecided.

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby Fire Brns » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:00 pm UTC

redbird71 wrote:I can also imagine that after a full scale thermo nuclear war which destroys the better part of the world and gets as all back to stone age basically, Star Wars is still remembered by mouth to mouth transmission.

Not nuclear and not star wars but, this.
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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby redbird71 » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:03 pm UTC

orthogon wrote:Eurgh. Sorry, but you've given me a mental picture of the quotes being written on some kind of waterproof material and stored in the cheeks between transfers. Sounds like some kind of teenage party game or hazing ritual... :wink:


Sorry 'bout that. I'm not a natural english speaker. Still an idea for a party game here. "Guess what quote I've got in my mouth carved in stone using ONLY your tongue."

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby neremanth » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:56 pm UTC

This reminds me of Trilby. A huge bestseller at the end of the nineteenth century, but mostly forgotten today. It's left its mark - that's where the name of the trilby hat comes from (indirectly, from the stage adaptation), and the term svengali. But I doubt most people using those words know their origin; I had certainly never heard of it, whilst being familiar with those words, until a few years ago. (It may be more known now than it was a decade or two ago - I found out about it when I read David Lodge's Author Author, which was a reasonably popular book). And new vocabulary items don't really count as quotes. I don't know whether we do have any quotes from Trilby still in use, but I would suspect not.

Robert Elsmere is another example of a book that was very successful when it was published but is almost unknown now.

I guess my point is that a work can be wildly popular in its day, can leave its mark on the language, can continue to be available to read (i.e. all existing copies are not destroyed, even if it goes out of print), and yet a hundred years later have fallen into obscurity, not even leaving any quotes in currency to remember it by. The interesting question is what determines longevity. Will Star Wars be another Trilby or Robert Elsmere, or will it be a Pride and Prejudice or Hamlet?

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:21 pm UTC

neremanth wrote:This reminds me of Trilby. A huge bestseller at the end of the nineteenth century, but mostly forgotten today. It's left its mark - that's where the name of the trilby hat comes from (indirectly, from the stage adaptation), and the term svengali. But I doubt most people using those words know their origin; I had certainly never heard of it, whilst being familiar with those words, until a few years ago. (It may be more known now than it was a decade or two ago - I found out about it when I read David Lodge's Author Author, which was a reasonably popular book). And new vocabulary items don't really count as quotes. I don't know whether we do have any quotes from Trilby still in use, but I would suspect not.

Robert Elsmere is another example of a book that was very successful when it was published but is almost unknown now.

I guess my point is that a work can be wildly popular in its day, can leave its mark on the language, can continue to be available to read (i.e. all existing copies are not destroyed, even if it goes out of print), and yet a hundred years later have fallen into obscurity, not even leaving any quotes in currency to remember it by. The interesting question is what determines longevity. Will Star Wars be another Trilby or Robert Elsmere, or will it be a Pride and Prejudice or Hamlet?


But was Trilby widely quoted in its day? Not every popular and/or widely known book or film today is widely quoted so we wouldn't expect them to become widely quoted in future...

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby redbird71 » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:17 am UTC

rmsgrey wrote:Not every popular and/or widely known book or film today is widely quoted so we wouldn't expect them to become widely quoted in future...


THAT is the point. There are few cuotes from ... let's say Pirates of the Caribean. (I had E.T. first but than I remembered "Call Home"...)

Especially the phrase "May the force be with you" fills an important slot in an glowingly agnostic world. So first of all it is a catchy phrase .... second it's got far over critical mass (there are lots of people that know, recognize and use the phrase that haven't even seen the movie) ... third it's applicable in a specific condition (wishing well to someone without wanting to recur to "old school" god).

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby Coyoty » Thu Sep 12, 2013 7:48 pm UTC

"When we get back to the Shire, Sam, I--" ::bump:: "Oh, excuse me..."
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"I apologize, sir. Allow me to--"
"HODOR!!!" ::fling::

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby bmonk » Thu Sep 12, 2013 9:08 pm UTC

Ne quid nimis.
Having become a Wizard on n.p. 2183, the Yellow Piggy retroactively appointed his honorable self a Temporal Wizardly Piggy on n.p.1488, not to be effective until n.p. 2183, thereby avoiding a partial temporal paradox. Since he couldn't afford two philosophical PhDs to rule on the title.

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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby addams » Fri Sep 13, 2013 2:10 am UTC

redbird71 wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:Not every popular and/or widely known book or film today is widely quoted so we wouldn't expect them to become widely quoted in future...


THAT is the point. There are few cuotes from ... let's say Pirates of the Caribean. (I had E.T. first but than I remembered "Call Home"...)

Especially the phrase "May the force be with you" fills an important slot in an glowingly agnostic world. So first of all it is a catchy phrase .... second it's got far over critical mass (there are lots of people that know, recognize and use the phrase that haven't even seen the movie) ... third it's applicable in a specific condition (wishing well to someone without wanting to recur to "old school" god).

Amen
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Re: 1262: "Unquote"

Postby Mike Rosoft » Sun Sep 15, 2013 5:42 am UTC

Red Hal wrote:Don't bother me with trifles. After 20 years, at last my father's soul will be at peace. There will be blood tonight!


I initially read it as "Don't bother me with tribbles".


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