1200: "Authorization"

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Steve the Pocket
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1200: "Authorization"

Postby Steve the Pocket » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:12 am UTC

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Mouseover caption: Before you say anything, no, I know not to leave my computer sitting out logged in to all my accounts. I have it set up so after a few minutes of inactivity it automatically switches to my brother's.

Can't this be remedied by simply not having your browser automatically log into every site? Heck, I'm pretty sure PayPal forces you to enter your password every time you visit, at least, and I'd be very surprised if banks don't too.
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby rhomboidal » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:13 am UTC

My machine is set to self-detonate if anyone including me installs 3rd-party drivers. It's easier to just get a new machine.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby RogueCynic » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:17 am UTC

My laptop has never left my house. I refuse to tell it about the outside world.
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Quicksilver » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:18 am UTC

Run as administrator?

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PhoenixRising
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby PhoenixRising » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:48 am UTC

Step 1: move all passwords to KeePass.
Step 2: set KeePass to lock after X seconds of inactivity, where X is some reasonable number (BHG has his set to 1).
Step 3: ???
Step 4: Profit.

And you get the additional benefit of having strong passwords without needing to resort to correct horse battery staple.
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby ekolis » Wed Apr 17, 2013 5:50 am UTC

What you need is a separate user account on your laptop for every online account you have.

Oh, wait, someone already built that. It's called "Android".
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby eviloatmeal » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:13 am UTC

Quicksilver wrote:Run as administrator?


Windows prompts you for the administrator password. That's the joke, since everything else is set to "keep me logged in", "remember my password the next time I visit" and so on.
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Eliram
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Eliram » Wed Apr 17, 2013 6:46 am UTC

I think the point is that Microsoft should have used the administrator password mechanism and expand it to protect modern computer uses and not just the silly stuff + your files.
Computers have been mobile for quite a while, now, files moved to the cloud, not to mention services etc.

KeePass is a good solution, also changing passwords in case of a stolen computer is a good idea. (Gmail first, other email accounts used to retreive passwords later, then paypal, banks, ebay, facebook etc.

There should be a list somewhere. Well, there probably is.
It's about time.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Wooloomooloo » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:24 am UTC

I feel amused by a feature Gmail has - to notify you with a mail when your password gets changed. I keep wondering how are you supposed to GET that mail considering your next attempt to poll for new mail will fail since you're still trying to use the old password to do it (not to mention what the heck you should do about it, same reason). Unless of course changed password are still accepted for a while after a pass change - which kinda invalidates any reason to change them in the first place. So what gives? Is this some "keyboard error, press F1" type lunacy...?

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Iranon » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:22 am UTC

Falls falt, feels as if written by someone tech-ignorant. What happens in a user account is that user's responsibility. What may cause trouble for other users, like installing potentially buggy drivers, requires admin privileges. How big potential troubles are doesn't enter the picture, just whom they affect.

Direct equivalent to "If I leave my flat unlocked people can steal my stuff and scrawl reproductive organs on the walls. But the utiliy room requires A TOTALLY DIFFERENT KEY AND THEY CAN'T GO THERE". I don't see how that insight is particularly insightful.
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby shashwat986 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:30 am UTC

Iranon wrote:Falls falt, feels as if written by someone tech-ignorant. What happens in a user account is that user's responsibility. What may cause trouble for other users, like installing potentially buggy drivers, requires admin privileges. How big potential troubles are doesn't enter the picture, just whom they affect.

Direct equivalent to "If I leave my flat unlocked people can steal my stuff and scrawl reproductive organs on the walls. But the utiliy room requires A TOTALLY DIFFERENT KEY AND THEY CAN'T GO THERE". I don't see how that insight is particularly insightful.


It's kinda like that utility closet is guarded like Fort Knox, and every upgrade just makes the lock on the utility closet better and more secure. Noone's playing any attention to the fact that the flat's pretty much insecure.
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Xenomortis » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:58 am UTC

Steve the Pocket wrote:Can't this be remedied by simply not having your browser automatically log into every site? Heck, I'm pretty sure PayPal forces you to enter your password every time you visit, at least, and I'd be very surprised if banks don't too.


He has access to his email.
That's very powerful. Maybe not enough for Banks, but I think enough for Paypal.
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby mcv » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:02 am UTC

Wait, bank? That others make sense, but bank? Does Randal's bank not have any kind of security? If so, then why does he still bank there?

Normal banks have a system of unique one-time codes to authorize individual payments. Knowing my login and password gets you my bank info, but still not my money.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Wooloomooloo » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:16 am UTC

Iranon wrote:Falls falt, feels as if written by someone tech-ignorant. What happens in a user account is that user's responsibility. What may cause trouble for other users, like installing potentially buggy drivers, requires admin privileges. How big potential troubles are doesn't enter the picture, just whom they affect.

Direct equivalent to "If I leave my flat unlocked people can steal my stuff and scrawl reproductive organs on the walls. But the utiliy room requires A TOTALLY DIFFERENT KEY AND THEY CAN'T GO THERE". I don't see how that insight is particularly insightful.


But how is that relevant on a single-user "personal" computer, which is basically 99% of them, not counting work PCs? The point made is that modern computing encourages us to keep system resources protected while at the same time all but begging us to leave all personal accounts unprotected (by offering to remember logged-in state, passwords etc.). That won't change what a security-conscious person will actually do, but it is indeed a surprising contradiction in attitude.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby KarenRei » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:41 am UTC

mcv wrote:Wait, bank? That others make sense, but bank? Does Randal's bank not have any kind of security? If so, then why does he still bank there?

Normal banks have a system of unique one-time codes to authorize individual payments. Knowing my login and password gets you my bank info, but still not my money.


What I don't get is why the banks here (Iceland) *downgraded* security last year. We used to have to use one of those devices where you press a button and it generates a one-time key. Now we don't have to anymore. Seems like a step backwards.

Anyway, Randall lives in the US, so his banking system is still in the 19th century anyway. I don't think most Americans have any clue how backwards their banking system is.

Anyway, my system: a separate password for 1) root, 2) my user account (home and work), 3) things having to do with finances, 4) everything else (my "throwaway password"). And not of the "correct horse battery staple" variety, but of the acronym variety (think of a short sentence as your password and the first letter of each word is what you type in, optionally twerked to add in numbers, symbols, etc as desired). Seems to work pretty well.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Ehsanit » Wed Apr 17, 2013 9:51 am UTC

No-one can impersonate him to his friends without first exclaiming the many benefits of public-private key identity verification.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Ekaros » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:35 am UTC

KarenRei wrote:
mcv wrote:Wait, bank? That others make sense, but bank? Does Randal's bank not have any kind of security? If so, then why does he still bank there?

Normal banks have a system of unique one-time codes to authorize individual payments. Knowing my login and password gets you my bank info, but still not my money.


What I don't get is why the banks here (Iceland) *downgraded* security last year. We used to have to use one of those devices where you press a button and it generates a one-time key. Now we don't have to anymore. Seems like a step backwards.

Anyway, Randall lives in the US, so his banking system is still in the 19th century anyway. I don't think most Americans have any clue how backwards their banking system is.

Anyway, my system: a separate password for 1) root, 2) my user account (home and work), 3) things having to do with finances, 4) everything else (my "throwaway password"). And not of the "correct horse battery staple" variety, but of the acronym variety (think of a short sentence as your password and the first letter of each word is what you type in, optionally twerked to add in numbers, symbols, etc as desired). Seems to work pretty well.


I somewhat prefer two-step or 3-step authentication used in Finland for banking... Though number+pin and one time code from sheet to access and an other one time code to confirm payments and maybe a SMS sometimes...

I don't have anything massive to lose. Not that it wouldn't hurt, but still. I'm too lax with my security...

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Liggliluff » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:36 am UTC

Wooloomooloo wrote:I feel amused by a feature Gmail has - to notify you with a mail when your password gets changed. I keep wondering how are you supposed to GET that mail considering your next attempt to poll for new mail will fail since you're still trying to use the old password to do it (not to mention what the heck you should do about it, same reason).

And if you're logged in on Android, you can't get that email either as it will throw an error saying that the password is wrong.


And when we're on banks. My bank has a one-time key when I put in by pin. A safe system until someone gets my pin... 3 guesses and it's out. 10000 combinations.
And I also have a password for using my credit card number, but I only move over as much money to use on my card anyway, so no one can take more than they should anyway.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Wnderer » Wed Apr 17, 2013 12:00 pm UTC

A lot of the security seems ass backwards. It's like Firefox privacy mode. It hides what the internet is doing from me. The internet can install any cookie it wants but I can't see what they are. It's the equivalent of calling a blindfold the changing room.

Programs from Google, Microsoft, Adobe, Java, etc. can all connect to the internet, download, and install anything they want, whenever they want but I have to give myself permission to do anything. Oh sure the programs themselves might have check box that allows me set it to ask me first but that is not required. I want a gateway on my internet connection that forces any program that wants to connect to have to ask me first without letting the application decide whether it wants to check with me. It's like Microsoft's attitude to what wrong with their operating system is the user.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Klear » Wed Apr 17, 2013 1:01 pm UTC

Wnderer wrote:A lot of the security seems ass backwards. It's like Firefox privacy mode. It hides what the internet is doing from me. The internet can install any cookie it wants but I can't see what they are. It's the equivalent of calling a blindfold the changing room.


Privacy mode isn't for security but for watching porn.

It's also useful if someone else needs to check their email from your computer and you don't want to get logged out in the process...

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby MadH » Wed Apr 17, 2013 2:43 pm UTC

Wnderer wrote:...
It's like Microsoft's attitude to what wrong with their operating system is the user.


If tech support call centers have anything to say about it, the problem with modern computers is usually the user.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:23 pm UTC

rhomboidal wrote:My machine is set to self-detonate if anyone including me installs 3rd-party drivers. It's easier to just get a new machine.

My machine is set to take off and nuke the site from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Eshru » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:30 pm UTC

Wooloomooloo wrote:I feel amused by a feature Gmail has - to notify you with a mail when your password gets changed. I keep wondering how are you supposed to GET that mail considering your next attempt to poll for new mail will fail since you're still trying to use the old password to do it (not to mention what the heck you should do about it, same reason). Unless of course changed password are still accepted for a while after a pass change - which kinda invalidates any reason to change them in the first place. So what gives? Is this some "keyboard error, press F1" type lunacy...?

I get a notification to my phone when I receive an email. Not really a good excuse for the practice of sending the email, but at least it's -a- reason.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby drummerpatch » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:40 pm UTC

MadH wrote:
Wnderer wrote:...
It's like Microsoft's attitude to what wrong with their operating system is the user.


If tech support call centers have anything to say about it, the problem with modern computers is usually the user.


No, if tech support call centers have anything to say about it, there is no problem, that's a feature.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Apr 17, 2013 3:51 pm UTC

drummerpatch wrote:
MadH wrote:
Wnderer wrote:...
It's like Microsoft's attitude to what wrong with their operating system is the user.

If tech support call centers have anything to say about it, the problem with modern computers is usually the user.

No, if tech support call centers have anything to say about it, there is no problem, that's a feature.

No, if tech support call centers have anything to say about it, then they've clearly gone off-script, because they never say a god-damn thing.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Random832 » Wed Apr 17, 2013 4:00 pm UTC

Iranon wrote:Falls falt, feels as if written by someone tech-ignorant. What happens in a user account is that user's responsibility. What may cause trouble for other users, like installing potentially buggy drivers, requires admin privileges. How big potential troubles are doesn't enter the picture, just whom they affect.


WHAT other users? This is the same early-80s minicomputer mentality that the comic is criticizing.

The problem is the attitude that only the admin account needs to be protected, that it's important to put massive walls between the admin account and everything else, if a security exploit only affects the user account it's not a problem, etc. The idea that having an unpriviliged "user" account makes Linux and OSX have a special immunity to viruses (as compared to, I guess, Windows 98) is the worst symptom of this attitude.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby ekolis » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:22 pm UTC

Random832 wrote:WHAT other users?


Hey, not EVERYONE can afford their own computer...
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby ekolis » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:30 pm UTC

By the way, is it just me or does this comic remind anyone else of a heavily guarded female reproductive system? :P
Reading posts on the xkcd forum makes me feel stupid.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Mighty Jalapeno » Wed Apr 17, 2013 7:34 pm UTC

You're overestimating how close the tops of nerd's laps get to reproductive organs...

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby richP » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:11 pm UTC

ekolis wrote:By the way, is it just me or does this comic remind anyone else of a heavily guarded female reproductive system? :P


The Admin Account part didn't look like a female reproductive organ...

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby mathmannix » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:26 pm UTC

richP wrote:
ekolis wrote:By the way, is it just me or does this comic remind anyone else of a heavily guarded female reproductive system? :P


The Admin Account part didn't look like a female reproductive organ...


I used to think that diagram was crazy, but now I just see its nuts.
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby lgw » Wed Apr 17, 2013 8:32 pm UTC

My home computer does auto-login on boot (no security at all if you have physical possession), but I do all my financial activity from an encrypted VM that I don't use for anything else. I really need to get around to moving all my financial email addresses to an account that's not used for anything else, to complete the pattern.

Everyone uses VMs for isolation and different email addresses for different vendors, right?
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby garaden » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:04 pm UTC

Obligatory mention of 2-step verification for Gmail. It makes it practically impossible to get into your Gmail from another cookie store (this term would be a lot more confusing if bakeries routinely offered WiFi) if someone doesn't also have your cell phone. It's really not a pain: you only have to enter a code if you haven't logged in from that cookie store (now I'm hungry...) before. And if you have a smartphone you can use the Authenticator app which will allow you to get a code even without cell service AFAIK.

Highly recommended, especially in light of some writer for Wired getting his whole online presence owned a while back: there were several screwups that compromised him, some of which were his own, but using 2-step would have stymied the worst parts of the attack.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby xtifr » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:06 pm UTC

ekolis wrote:
Random832 wrote:WHAT other users?


Hey, not EVERYONE can afford their own computer...

I think what he was actually forgetting is that not everyone is an asocial loner; that some percentage of people in this world actually have family. And not just mom upstairs, but a wife and kids.

eta: Anyway, anyone who steals my laptop is only going to have access if they start using it within fifteen minutes. After that, it demands a password. And even with access to my account, they're still not going to have access to my bank.
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby vvn » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:15 pm UTC

mcv wrote:Normal banks have a system of unique one-time codes to authorize individual payments. Knowing my login and password gets you my bank info, but still not my money.

Bank of America (my small local bank) doesn't do the one time code for less than $5,000. And, the one time code is sent to my phone. (Possibly stolen if they got my laptop.) Of course on my machine you need two passwords to even get to that point.

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby vvn » Wed Apr 17, 2013 10:30 pm UTC

Somewhat an aside, Donald Knuth http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Donald_Knuth stopped using banks some years ago because the security was so bad. (referenced in http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knuth_reward_check, for checks that are mostly never cashed.)

xkcd references to Knuth:
http://xkcd.com/163/
http://xkcd.com/342/
http://xkcd.com/816/
http://xkcd.com/1162/

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby ThemePark » Wed Apr 17, 2013 11:58 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
richP wrote:
ekolis wrote:By the way, is it just me or does this comic remind anyone else of a heavily guarded female reproductive system? :P


The Admin Account part didn't look like a female reproductive organ...


I used to think that diagram was crazy, but now I just see its nuts.


http://explosm.net/comics/3142/

Perfect timing.
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby mcrocker » Thu Apr 18, 2013 3:37 am UTC

ekolis wrote:What you need is a separate user account on your laptop for every online account you have.

Oh, wait, someone already built that. It's called "Android".


Actually, Qubes OS is probably more appropriate for the intended platform and provides much better isolation.
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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Horselover Frost » Thu Apr 18, 2013 7:24 am UTC

What you're all forgetting is, if somebody steals your laptop, whether or not it's logged in, they have complete access to everything on it unless you use full disk encryption. Even in the case of some partial disk encryption schemes (like earlier versions of Apple's FileVault), you're only delaying them however long it takes to crack your password hash (from minutes with a good rainbow table and some luck, to maybe a month, tops, on a home PC doing a brute force attack).

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Re: 1200: "Authorization"

Postby Xenomortis » Thu Apr 18, 2013 8:08 am UTC

If it's turned on when they steal it, you run the risk of them performing a cold boot attack.
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