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Re: Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:02 pm UTC
by whotyjones
SeySayux wrote:That's not a Venn diagram.

That's a Euler diagram.



Thank you! I tell people this all the time....I'm glad someone else knows the difference!

Re: Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:09 pm UTC
by whotyjones
pachinkoid wrote:The vast majority of XKCD can easily be understood with a high school education. I don't think most people at that education level learn Euler diagrams, but would know Venn diagrams.


Sounds like a problem with the education system. I would argue that most high school (middle, elementary) teachers don't know the difference or that they are teaching it incorrectly. People wouldn't recognize it because it's being poorly taught.

pachinkoid wrote:So the first reason to call it a Venn diagram is because we know what a Venn diagram is.


Clearly, many do NOT know what a Venn diagram is....recognizing the term does not equal knowing what the term means.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:27 pm UTC
by Moose Anus
Image

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:28 pm UTC
by Fire Brns
SeySayux wrote:That's not a Venn diagram.

That's a Euler diagram.

I just love how the picture on the Euler page looks like Amoebas feeding.

Istaro wrote:Tortoise vs. turtle, though, isn't an issue of terminology, nor is it a subset/superset relationship—they're different animals. One lives on land, one in the sea, if I'm not mistaken. In other words, it would simply wrong, not pedantic, to insist that someone use "tortoise" instead of "turtle" if they were actually talking about turtles and not tortoises.
Except this is wrong. Only sea turtles are entirely sea going (excluding eggs, but they can't swim). Pond turtles spend a considerable time sunning themselves on land.

cellocgw wrote:
Lewton wrote:This comic is nonsense. I don't disagree with the premise that there are viruses out there that are not meant to be found, and probably won't be found but there's a very real class of very in your face visible viruses, like the fake anti-virus popups that try to convince you you need to pay 30 bucks to get rid of a malicious infection


Pop-ups are not even close to being viruses, even in the current colloquialism which lumps viruses and trojan horses and a few other things into a single category.

You are much closer to nonsense than this comic is.
Except when it is in fact a program that installs itself on a computer and then generates pop ups. Not necessarily but it might also restrict internet by potholing anything you type to it's webpage. (I somehow get these a lot)

Re: Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:32 pm UTC
by Davidy
omgryebread wrote:
... you don't really get a joke naming it properly. When the title proclaims you will see a Venn diagram, your mind is setup to see a Venn diagram. When you don't, that surprise is funny. The joke is that there's no intersection. Expecting a Euler diagram and seeing one wouldn't set that up.

Well said, and exactly correct.

Re: Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 6:49 pm UTC
by el sjaako
omgryebread wrote:So the first reason to call it a Venn diagram is because we know what a Venn diagram is. The vast majority of XKCD can easily be understood with a high school education. I don't think most people at that education level learn Euler diagrams, but would know Venn diagrams.


Except that it could still work without calling it a Venn diagram. Enough people know about this to recognise it without the header including the word Venn Diagram. In fact I think there are probably plenty of people who don't know what either a Venn or an Euler diagram are called, and yet would still get the joke.

omgryebread wrote: The second is that you don't really get a joke naming it properly. When the title proclaims you will see a Venn diagram, your mind is setup to see a Venn diagram. When you don't, that surprise is funny. The joke is that there's no intersection. Expecting a Euler diagram and seeing one wouldn't set that up.


Seriously? I think this mistake is common enough that no one will see it as something funny. You may ask "Then why do you care?" It's because I hold xkcd to a higher standard.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 7:37 pm UTC
by wolfticket
I like to accept that language changes and evolves over time.

I now take "virus" to be synonymous with "every piece of pointless and malicious software I've misguidedly installed in the last few years all running at once in the background".

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:08 pm UTC
by u_2_guy
The Singularity will respond with: "Go defrag YOURSELF!"

Re: Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:20 pm UTC
by Klear
omgryebread wrote:The vast majority of XKCD can easily be understood with a high school education.


Ha! That's a first. Usually it's "XKCD has always been about geek jokes. If you don't get it, it's not for you."

Re: Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 9:25 pm UTC
by project2051
algorerhythms wrote:The main difference between the viruses of today and the viruses of 25 years ago is that today's viruses are made to make money rather than as pranks, so they work best if they stay hidden, which means a computer infected with a (well-coded) virus will tend not to show symptoms that make people think it has a virus.


So if my computer suddenly starts working better I might have a virus?

cisengineer wrote:I had a really nice English professor claim that a bolt of lightning caused her to have to defragment her hard drive...I didn't have the heart to say anything, but it still makes me cringe to this day.


That reminds me of the time at work when a arc of static electricity jumped between my finger and a usb port on a computer and the computer just shut down. I sat there for a second just going "Oh god." since it wasn't even my computer. But it booted up fine with out anything evidently wrong.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 10:21 pm UTC
by dosboot
For Firefox users:

(1) Performance problems which make people suggest 'maybe is caused by one of your add-ons?'.

(2) Performance problems which are actually caused by your add-ons.

Re: Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:53 pm UTC
by bmonk
keithl wrote:
Primis wrote:Personally, I've never been able to prove this, I've never had a known virus.


That's what YOU think, chum. :-/

Yeah. I've gotten so many viruses that random emails can diagnose them within 15 seconds!

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Fri Mar 01, 2013 11:56 pm UTC
by bmonk
cisengineer wrote:I had a really nice English professor claim that a bolt of lightning caused her to have to defragment her hard drive...I didn't have the heart to say anything, but it still makes me cringe to this day.

Well, all that static electricity in motion--no doubt it caused no end of bytes moving around. In kilobyte packets.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 8:26 am UTC
by hetas
cisengineer wrote:I had a really nice English professor claim that a bolt of lightning caused her to have to defragment her hard drive...I didn't have the heart to say anything, but it still makes me cringe to this day.

Maybe lightning started a fire which caused some kind of explosion due to explosive materials kept near the harddrive and the explosion defragmentet the harddrive to a 100m radius?

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:16 pm UTC
by billybobfred
In my experience, the diagram should look a little more like this.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:55 am UTC
by tomandlu
Moose Anus wrote:Image


Surely 2 should be smaller than 1 (there are more people who know what a Venn is than a Euler, or is that not how Venn works?)

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 2:14 pm UTC
by Klear
tomandlu wrote:
Moose Anus wrote:Image


Surely 2 should be smaller than 1 (there are more people who know what a Venn is than a Euler, or is that not how Venn works?)


I believe it's not - it is used to point out the existence and relations of different groupings, but doesn't show have to show their relative sizes.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 7:19 pm UTC
by 5th Earth
In my personal experience, the one sure sign you have a virus is you are suddenly unable to use your antivirus software. The one time it happened to me I had to make a fresh windows install on a new hard drive, install antivirus on that drive, and cure the old drive from there. Trying to fix things from the infected drive itself was pretty much impossible.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Sun Mar 03, 2013 9:10 pm UTC
by Klear
5th Earth wrote:In my personal experience, the one sure sign you have a virus is you are suddenly unable to use your antivirus software. The one time it happened to me I had to make a fresh windows install on a new hard drive, install antivirus on that drive, and cure the old drive from there. Trying to fix things from the infected drive itself was pretty much impossible.


Or you may have two antiviruses at once. I've seen them battle each other a couple of times.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 12:50 am UTC
by addams
Klear wrote:
tomandlu wrote:
Moose Anus wrote:Image


Surely 2 should be smaller than 1 (there are more people who know what a Venn is than a Euler, or is that not how Venn works?)


I believe it's not - it is used to point out the existence and relations of different groupings, but doesn't show have to show their relative sizes.


Venn Diagrams are so useful.
The size of the art work can be worked out, after the relationship has been visually established.
Some things have no relationship at all.

The Math is Too Hard!
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Euler_diag ... rnaugh_map
This is supposed to be fun.
I don't like truth tables. They are wrong more often than they are right.
Spoiler:
On the same planet at the same time is a relationship.
Inside the same universe, but at different times is a relationship; But not a close one.

What is up with the subatomic particles that blink off and on?
Anthropocentric Observer Error?

Re: Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:21 pm UTC
by webgiant
algorerhythms wrote:
SchighSchagh wrote:Wow, I can't even remember when's the last time I had to worry about defragging. Probably when I was still using Window$...

I haven't needed to defrag a computer (Windows or Linux) in at least ten years.

Chances are if you have used a Windows machine, you have needed to defrag the hard drive on a regular basis, but Windows did it for you automatically.

If you used a Linux machine, you needed defragging when your hard drive filled up above 95% full, but over the last ten years hard drives have gotten so big you probably haven't gotten close to 90% for any excessively long period of time.

Not knowing you needed to do something is not the same as not needing to do it.

5th Earth wrote:In my personal experience, the one sure sign you have a virus is you are suddenly unable to use your antivirus software.

Or you suddenly have some brand new antivirus software you do not remember installing, though sometimes that is just malware.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 1:50 pm UTC
by styrofoam
addams wrote:I don't like truth tables. They are wrong more often than they are right.

Tables are, just, a way of writing.

It is up to us to us to write the truth.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 4:54 pm UTC
by rmsgrey
Klear wrote:
5th Earth wrote:In my personal experience, the one sure sign you have a virus is you are suddenly unable to use your antivirus software. The one time it happened to me I had to make a fresh windows install on a new hard drive, install antivirus on that drive, and cure the old drive from there. Trying to fix things from the infected drive itself was pretty much impossible.


Or you may have two antiviruses at once. I've seen them battle each other a couple of times.


I once got asked to try to fix someone's computer that was taking 45 minutes to boot. After a couple of hours watching the mouse-pointer playing catch-up, I found and disabled the active McAfee anti-virus. Then I found and disabled the active Norton anti-virus. With just Microsoft Security Essentials running, the computer suddenly started working properly...

That's right. There were three different anti-virus programs running, each actively policing everything else doing anything on the computer - including each other, like the proverbial soviet secret police spending most of their time and effort spying on each other...

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:33 pm UTC
by Pfhorrest
tomandlu wrote:
Moose Anus wrote:Image


Surely 2 should be smaller than 1 (there are more people who know what a Venn is than a Euler, or is that not how Venn works?)

Other issues aside, I should point out that that image is also not a Venn diagram. The existence of set 3 entirely within the intersection of sets 1 and 2 makes it a Euler diagram.

A three-set Venn diagram always looks like this:

Image

And a three-set Venn equivalent to MA's diagram above would have regions AC, AB, and A shaded out (assuming C = 1 and B = 2).

Also I'm not clear but did MA intend to draw that diagram such that there may be some people who know what a Venn diagram is and know what a Euler diagram is but do not know the difference? Because his diagram shows areas in the intersection of 1 and 2 that are not within 3, which would indicate that.

Also note that most people fall outside any of the sets of that diagram. Most people who have even heard of "Venn diagrams" think of Euler diagrams and so do not actually know what a Venn diagram is. Most people have never even heard of Euler diagrams and so cannot know what they are. I'd wager most people who know what Venn diagrams are (have heard of them and can correctly identify one) also know what an Euler diagram is and the difference between them.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 8:53 pm UTC
by brenok
Pfhorrest wrote:Also note that most people fall outside any of the sets of that diagram. Most people who have even heard of "Venn diagrams" think of Euler diagrams and so do not actually know what a Venn diagram is. Most people have never even heard of Euler diagrams and so cannot know what they are. I'd wager most people who know what Venn diagrams are (have heard of them and can correctly identify one) also know what an Euler diagram is and the difference between them.


I'm proposing this diagram:

Image

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:06 pm UTC
by Raisins
brenok wrote:
I'm proposing this diagram:

You need to put the know circle inside the think one.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:29 pm UTC
by 5th Earth
Klear wrote:
5th Earth wrote:In my personal experience, the one sure sign you have a virus is you are suddenly unable to use your antivirus software. The one time it happened to me I had to make a fresh windows install on a new hard drive, install antivirus on that drive, and cure the old drive from there. Trying to fix things from the infected drive itself was pretty much impossible.


Or you may have two antiviruses at once. I've seen them battle each other a couple of times.


No, it was definitely a virus.

1: I only had AVG installed.
2: I had just spent the previous day looking for a crack for a game I had bought recently. I bought the game, brought it home, opened it up, and...no CD key in the packaging. FUCK. Of course I can't return it because the packaging is open. So I decide the just find a crack online. Of course that's a pretty dodgy business, so when my computer, in particular AVG, started acting up I knew I had probably put something on my computer in the process. I swear on my backups this is true.
3: When I did the whole fresh install on a new HD thing, AVG did in fact find a virus.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Mon Mar 04, 2013 9:33 pm UTC
by brenok
Raisins wrote:
brenok wrote:
I'm proposing this diagram:

You need to put the know circle inside the think one.


Technically, you're right. I was thinking more at lines of "People who only think they know what a Venn Diagram is"

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:39 am UTC
by rmsgrey
5th Earth wrote:
Klear wrote:
5th Earth wrote:In my personal experience, the one sure sign you have a virus is you are suddenly unable to use your antivirus software. The one time it happened to me I had to make a fresh windows install on a new hard drive, install antivirus on that drive, and cure the old drive from there. Trying to fix things from the infected drive itself was pretty much impossible.


Or you may have two antiviruses at once. I've seen them battle each other a couple of times.


No, it was definitely a virus.

1: I only had AVG installed.
2: I had just spent the previous day looking for a crack for a game I had bought recently. I bought the game, brought it home, opened it up, and...no CD key in the packaging. FUCK. Of course I can't return it because the packaging is open. So I decide the just find a crack online. Of course that's a pretty dodgy business, so when my computer, in particular AVG, started acting up I knew I had probably put something on my computer in the process. I swear on my backups this is true.
3: When I did the whole fresh install on a new HD thing, AVG did in fact find a virus.

Here in the UK, you'd have been legally entitled to return the game as not-fit-for-purpose or some such - and it would be hard to convince a judge that you should have been able to tell whether or not the license key was included without opening the packaging. I don't know how Californian law treats the situation, but if you wanted to stay legally in the clear, you could potentially have made things rather embarrassing for the store if they didn't put things right.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 3:58 am UTC
by Coyne
5th Earth wrote:[...] I bought the game, brought it home, opened it up, and...no CD key in the packaging.


Isn't it interesting how game manufacturers can spend approximately $99 bazillion on DRM to ensure you don't share the game or run it on more than one console, but they can't spend 3¢ to make sure the CD key is in the package? Must have something to do with whose pocket they're worried about.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:04 am UTC
by Klear
Pfhorrest wrote:Other issues aside, I should point out that that image is also not a Venn diagram. The existence of set 3 entirely within the intersection of sets 1 and 2 makes it a Euler diagram.


That was the joke.

5th Earth wrote:
Klear wrote:
5th Earth wrote:In my personal experience, the one sure sign you have a virus is you are suddenly unable to use your antivirus software. The one time it happened to me I had to make a fresh windows install on a new hard drive, install antivirus on that drive, and cure the old drive from there. Trying to fix things from the infected drive itself was pretty much impossible.


Or you may have two antiviruses at once. I've seen them battle each other a couple of times.


No, it was definitely a virus.

1: I only had AVG installed.
2: I had just spent the previous day looking for a crack for a game I had bought recently. I bought the game, brought it home, opened it up, and...no CD key in the packaging. FUCK. Of course I can't return it because the packaging is open. So I decide the just find a crack online. Of course that's a pretty dodgy business, so when my computer, in particular AVG, started acting up I knew I had probably put something on my computer in the process. I swear on my backups this is true.
3: When I did the whole fresh install on a new HD thing, AVG did in fact find a virus.


I only meant that this stuff can happen, not that it was the case in your.. ehm... case.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:13 pm UTC
by Pfhorrest
Klear wrote:
Pfhorrest wrote:Other issues aside, I should point out that that image is also not a Venn diagram. The existence of set 3 entirely within the intersection of sets 1 and 2 makes it a Euler diagram.

That was the joke.

Are you saying you think tomandlu's comment "or is that not how Venn works?" in reference to his question about Moose Anus' Euler diagram was intended as a joke? Cause that's what I was responding to. I can see the joke in Moose Anus' diagram itself (or at least, I considered reading a joke into it, though I wasn't sure if one was intended).

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Tue Mar 05, 2013 10:55 pm UTC
by Moose Anus
I copied that image from the wikipedia article, which says it is a Humorous diagram. I still don't know what a Humorous diagram is but it seemed relevant to the conversation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Euler ... xample.png

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:09 am UTC
by Jinxed
It's truly sad how many people miss (or just ignore, it's hard to tell) the joke, that it's a Venn diagram wherein neither circles touch because they share nothing in common.

1/3* of the replies to this thread involve Venn vs Euler diagram debates about the comic (For the record it's a Venn diagram).
1/3* of the replies to this thread involve debates on the accuracy of the joke/information in the comic
1/3* of the replies to this thread involve debates about viruses, malware, etc
*Not accurate statistics

There's a difference between a virus and a program or application that cloaks itself as an anti-virus/malware etc program that slows down your computer/renders it unusable/etc. A virus will infect a computer then try to spread copies of itself to other computers usually via email before inflicting its harmful effects. If this isn't the design of the program in question, then it isn't a virus, which is why the joke of this comic is accurate. There aren't many true viruses these days, most programs mistaken for viruses are just Trojan horses or malware designed to convince you to (pay money to) install another program on your computer, or possible unlock the trial version of a program you already have. Interestingly enough, the only viruses I've encountered as of late were the variants that roam Facebook and Online email services, which you unintentionally install by accepting some third-party app which you give access to send messages/email that then send other messages to your contacts which creates a cycle that can only be stopped by spreading awareness about the threat (which usually comes after you need to reset your password because the app compromised that too).

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Wed Mar 06, 2013 7:06 am UTC
by Pfhorrest
Jinxed wrote:1/3* of the replies to this thread involve Venn vs Euler diagram debates about the comic (For the record it's a Venn diagram).


No, it's not. A Venn diagram ALWAYS shows an intersection between two or more shapes where every possible combination of the shapes has exactly one region in the diagram. Regions representing sets which definitely have no members in them are then shaded out, and marks are placed in regions representing sets which definitely have some members in them, and unmarked, unshaded regions represent sets which may or may not have some members in them.

If this comic was a Venn diagram, it would show two intersecting circles, with the intersecting area shaded out, and at least one mark placed in the non-intersecting regions of each circle. That would say "There are some problems people think are caused by viruses and there are some problems which are actually caused by viruses but there are no problems which people think are caused by viruses that actually were caused by viruses." It says that by saying "This set has some members, and that set has some members, but their intersection has no members."

The chart depicted in the comic is an Euler diagram with the same import. An Euler diagram only depicts regions which definitely have some members, and shows subset/superset/intersection/etc be the relations of those regions. Thus, as an Euler diagram, the comic also says "There are some problems people think are caused by viruses and there are some problems which are actually caused by viruses but there are no problems which people think are caused by viruses that actually were caused by viruses." It does that by saying "there's a population that fits in this set, and a population that fits in that set, but those populations don't have any members in common".

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 1:45 am UTC
by addams
Venn diagrams are wonderful.
When the Venn Diagram looks like that one;
1. The problem is fixed
2. There never was a problem.
3. The problem is not what we thought it was.
4. The problem is unsolvable with the information we have.
5. Do I show up on this diagram? No? Thank God. It's not my problem.

My first Venn Diagram was so useful.
I love them all. Some more than others.

It is a positive prejudice.
A Venn Diagram can be used to tell lies and make more problems than it solves.
That's not Venn's fault.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 2:40 am UTC
by webgiant
Jinxed wrote:1/3* of the replies to this thread involve Venn vs Euler diagram debates about the comic (For the record it's a Venn diagram).
1/3* of the replies to this thread involve debates on the accuracy of the joke/information in the comic
1/3* of the replies to this thread involve debates about viruses, malware, etc
*Not accurate statistics

And the remaining 1/3 quotes statistics which may or may not be true.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Thu Mar 07, 2013 4:12 am UTC
by Coyne
webgiant wrote:
Jinxed wrote:1/3* of the replies to this thread involve Venn vs Euler diagram debates about the comic (For the record it's a Venn diagram).
1/3* of the replies to this thread involve debates on the accuracy of the joke/information in the comic
1/3* of the replies to this thread involve debates about viruses, malware, etc
*Not accurate statistics

And the remaining 1/3 quotes statistics which may or may not be true.


So? This Dilbert strip.

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 1:00 am UTC
by styrofoam
rmsgrey wrote:
5th Earth wrote:
Klear wrote:
5th Earth wrote:In my personal experience, the one sure sign you have a virus is you are suddenly unable to use your antivirus software. The one time it happened to me I had to make a fresh windows install on a new hard drive, install antivirus on that drive, and cure the old drive from there. Trying to fix things from the infected drive itself was pretty much impossible.


Or you may have two antiviruses at once. I've seen them battle each other a couple of times.


No, it was definitely a virus.

1: I only had AVG installed.
2: I had just spent the previous day looking for a crack for a game I had bought recently. I bought the game, brought it home, opened it up, and...no CD key in the packaging. FUCK. Of course I can't return it because the packaging is open. So I decide the just find a crack online. Of course that's a pretty dodgy business, so when my computer, in particular AVG, started acting up I knew I had probably put something on my computer in the process. I swear on my backups this is true.
3: When I did the whole fresh install on a new HD thing, AVG did in fact find a virus.

Here in the UK, you'd have been legally entitled to return the game as not-fit-for-purpose or some such - and it would be hard to convince a judge that you should have been able to tell whether or not the license key was included without opening the packaging. I don't know how Californian law treats the situation, but if you wanted to stay legally in the clear, you could potentially have made things rather embarrassing for the store if they didn't put things right.

How would you prove the case actually came empty, as opposed to removing the disk from the case and trying to get your money back?

Re: 1180: "Virus Venn Diagram"

Posted: Sun Mar 10, 2013 4:08 am UTC
by elasto
styrofoam wrote:How would you prove the case actually came empty, as opposed to removing the disk from the case and trying to get your money back?


It didn't have a missing disk - just a missing key:

I had just spent the previous day looking for a crack for a game I had bought recently. I bought the game, brought it home, opened it up, and...no CD key in the packaging. FUCK. Of course I can't return it because the packaging is open. So I decide the just find a crack online.


I've never had that happen to me but I'd think it likely a UK store would exchange the faulty product in that instance. No, they'd be unlikely to refund but they'd likely exchange. I'd be disappointed if a US store wouldn't do the same.

Course, it's yet another good argument for buying your game from Steam or equivalent where such issues are never likely to arise.