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Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:14 pm UTC
by Carlington
Wait, yeah, you're quite right. I had it flipped in my head.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 5:44 pm UTC
by Роберт
Probably from flipping the order. But I do think that's great.

Traveling at Nix 0 would be handy if you forgot to study for a test.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:01 pm UTC
by mathmannix
Роберт wrote:Probably from flipping the order. But I do think that's great.

Traveling at Nix 0 would be handy if you forgot to study for a test.


Or any time you wanted a nap but couldn't really afford to, timewise. Of course, you'd live a shorter amount of time as far as the rest of the world is concerned...

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 7:14 pm UTC
by Роберт
mathmannix wrote:
Роберт wrote:Probably from flipping the order. But I do think that's great.

Traveling at Nix 0 would be handy if you forgot to study for a test.


Or any time you wanted a nap but couldn't really afford to, timewise. Of course, you'd live a shorter amount of time as far as the rest of the world is concerned...

Just time travel forward later.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:58 pm UTC
by Christophoros
Роберт wrote:
mathmannix wrote:
Роберт wrote:Probably from flipping the order. But I do think that's great.

Traveling at Nix 0 would be handy if you forgot to study for a test.


Or any time you wanted a nap but couldn't really afford to, timewise. Of course, you'd live a shorter amount of time as far as the rest of the world is concerned...

Just time travel forward later.

Being able to just skip winter would be quite nice.

Also, wouldn't Nix 0 be a problem? At Nix 0.5 you spend 1 second and the world spends 2. At nix 0.25 you spend 1 second and the world spends 4. Doesn't that mean that at nix 0 you would spend 1 second and the world would spend eternity? We hit the divide by 0 problem again. I think Nix 0 is like the speed of light - you can never actually get there.

Or have I got Nix the wrong way around?

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:15 pm UTC
by Xenomortis
Your ratio is the wrong way around.
At 1 nix (nix-1? 1 nix?), for every second that passes for you, one second passes for 'everyone else'.
At 2 nix, for every second that passes for you, two passes for 'everyone else'.
At 0.5 nix, for every second that passes for you, only half a second passes for 'everyone else'.
At 0 nix, for every second that passes for you, none pass for anyone else.

You've made the exact same mistake as was detailed just a few posts above.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:25 pm UTC
by mathmannix
mathmannix wrote: I propose the metric unit "nix" to be derived as one second per second. For example, if my time machine can jump forward one year in what appears to me to take one second, it will travel at a rating of approximately 31.5 meganixes. And if my time machine is just an ordinary closet / car / phone booth, then it will travel at a rating of 1 nix (not counting the effects of relativity in the case of the car.)


Temporal velocity
(nixes)..............Machine.....Outside world

31,536,000.........1 second.....1 year (365 days)
(~31.5 Mnix)
86,400............. 1 second.....1 day
3,600...............1 second.....1 hour
60...................1 second.....1 minute
1....................1 second.....1 second
0.5..................2 seconds....1 second
0.01666667.........1 minute.....1 second
0.00027778.........1 hour........1 second
0.000011574........1 day.........1 second
(~11.6 μnix)
0.00000003171.....1 year........1 second
(~31.7 nnix)

0....................1 second.....time is "paused"

-1...................1 second.....-1 second
-31,536,000........1 second.....-1 year

[Oh, I was ninja'd... oh well]

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 4:10 pm UTC
by Christophoros
Xenomortis wrote:Your ratio is the wrong way around.
At 1 nix (nix-1? 1 nix?), for every second that passes for you, one second passes for 'everyone else'.
At 2 nix, for every second that passes for you, two passes for 'everyone else'.
At 0.5 nix, for every second that passes for you, only half a second passes for 'everyone else'.
At 0 nix, for every second that passes for you, none pass for anyone else.

You've made the exact same mistake as was detailed just a few posts above.


Yeah, I realised that shortly after logging out. It makes more sense your way round.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:20 pm UTC
by Christophoros
OK, so suppose I get in my spaceship and fly away from the Earth at some incredible speed and then back again. I'll encounter a time dilation effect due to my astronomical speeds. If the journey takes 2 years from my point of view, and 4 years from everyone else's point of view, that's effectively a time machine with a power of 2 nix. Therefore time dilation due to relativity and the effect caused by our time machine are measured in the same units.

Since we already have to account for time dilation effects with things like satellites, shouldn't there already be a unit of measurement for this that we could appropriate?

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 11:24 pm UTC
by Carlington
I don't think we really use a unit when talking about time dilation. However, we could appropriate this unit for use when talking about time dilation. It's not so much a unit, though, as it is a placeholder for "ratio of subjective time vs. proper time"

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 9:25 pm UTC
by eSOANEM
Carlington wrote:I don't think we really use a unit when talking about time dilation. However, we could appropriate this unit for use when talking about time dilation. It's not so much a unit, though, as it is a placeholder for "ratio of subjective time vs. proper time"


This is an eloquent explanation of what I was stumbling through in my earlier posts

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 9:50 am UTC
by Carlington
eSOANEM wrote:
Carlington wrote:I don't think we really use a unit when talking about time dilation. However, we could appropriate this unit for use when talking about time dilation. It's not so much a unit, though, as it is a placeholder for "ratio of subjective time vs. proper time"


This is an eloquent explanation of what I was stumbling through in my earlier posts

I consider this a success.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:52 am UTC
by makc
gmalivuk wrote:And radians are (unit length) per (unit length), but we still have a pretty useful name for them.
Is 1 radian not just another way to write 1/2pi ?

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:05 am UTC
by makc
Christophoros wrote:OK, so suppose I get in my spaceship and fly away from the Earth at some incredible speed and then back again. I'll encounter a time dilation effect due to my astronomical speeds. If the journey takes 2 years from my point of view, and 4 years from everyone else's point of view, that's effectively a time machine with a power of 2 nix. Therefore time dilation due to relativity and the effect caused by our time machine are measured in the same units.

This will not work, unless you place severe restrictions on what times you want to compare. E.g. in spaceship scenario there will be any number of event pairs that happen at the same time on spaceship, and one after another on Earth - obviously, any such pair will give you infinite "nix" ratio.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:37 am UTC
by eSOANEM
makc wrote:
gmalivuk wrote:And radians are (unit length) per (unit length), but we still have a pretty useful name for them.
Is 1 radian not just another way to write 1/2pi ?


Nope.

Radian is shorthand for "this quantity here is the ratio of arc length to radius of the arc between two lines/planes/etc.". You can make a 1/2pi come in there if you want it to be phrased in the proportion of a full turn you have to go through to move from one line/plane/etc. to the other.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 8:36 pm UTC
by Роберт
makc wrote:
Christophoros wrote:OK, so suppose I get in my spaceship and fly away from the Earth at some incredible speed and then back again. I'll encounter a time dilation effect due to my astronomical speeds. If the journey takes 2 years from my point of view, and 4 years from everyone else's point of view, that's effectively a time machine with a power of 2 nix. Therefore time dilation due to relativity and the effect caused by our time machine are measured in the same units.

This will not work, unless you place severe restrictions on what times you want to compare. E.g. in spaceship scenario there will be any number of event pairs that happen at the same time on spaceship, and one after another on Earth - obviously, any such pair will give you infinite "nix" ratio.

No, it's not obvious: could you elaborate?

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 10:15 pm UTC
by makc
makc wrote:...event pairs that happen at the same time on spaceship...
that is 0 seconds
makc wrote:...and one after another on Earth...
that is t > 0 seconds. 2nd divided by first is infinity.

now you might say, this does not happen on the traveller world line, so we're safe. but, the "world line" is abstraction, the extension of "particle". real objects such as spaceship do have non-zero dimensions. so, if you fly your spaceship at under c, two clocks perfectly synced on board become time-shifted on earth, and you have to account for that somehow.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:46 pm UTC
by Роберт
makc wrote:
makc wrote:...event pairs that happen at the same time on spaceship...
that is 0 seconds
makc wrote:...and one after another on Earth...
that is t > 0 seconds. 2nd divided by first is infinity.

now you might say, this does not happen on the traveller world line, so we're safe. but, the "world line" is abstraction, the extension of "particle". real objects such as spaceship do have non-zero dimensions. so, if you fly your spaceship at under c, two clocks perfectly synced on board become time-shifted on earth, and you have to account for that somehow.
Why are you randomly dividing by 0? Not to determine the nix rate.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:57 pm UTC
by makc
Randomly?

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:12 am UTC
by gmalivuk
Perhaps it's not random, but it is the inverse of how "nix" was originally defined in this thread.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:29 pm UTC
by makc
it is time passed between two events on board divided by time passed between same events on earth. if you want inverse of that, you could again pick two (different) events that happen at the same time on earth and one after another on board - it does not really matter :) what I am saying here is that thanks to relativity the simple ratio like that is kind of useless.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:33 pm UTC
by Роберт
makc wrote:it is time passed between two events on board divided by time passed between same events on earth. if you want inverse of that, you could again pick two (different) events that happen at the same time on earth and one after another on board - it does not really matter :) what I am saying here is that thanks to relativity the simple ratio like that is kind of useless.

I'm familiar with relativity. But what does this have to do with nix? Why would you use events that don't have a clear ordering from all reference frames to determine the time? I mean, I don't even get what these "events" are, but it seems odd that you would be using events with a space-like separation, instead of a time-like separation for calculating time passed. I can't think of any event pairs that have a space-like separation that are used for calculating time. What you're doing does seem pretty unrelated to nix.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:51 pm UTC
by gmalivuk
makc wrote:it is time passed between two events on board divided by time passed between same events on earth.
Right you are. My mistake.

what I am saying here is that thanks to relativity the simple ratio like that is kind of useless.
Yeah, except no one else was talking about space-like separated events. In special relativity, nix is basically just the "unit" in which we measure gamma. Which of course doesn't run into any of these problems you're claiming "thanks to relativity", as it's *part* of relativity.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:07 pm UTC
by makc
gmalivuk wrote:Yeah, except no one else was talking about space-like separated events.

Exactly! How nice of me it was to come and fix this :)

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:28 pm UTC
by makc
Роберт wrote: I can't think of any event pairs that have a space-like separation that are used for calculating time.
what are you talking about, every clock on earth is space-separated from any other clock. there are probably dozens of totally independent separate atomic clocks used to maintain utc or whatever system our daily time is based on, and while they are in agreement on earth, they will not be on your spaceship. which one are you going to use for your measurements?

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 8:59 pm UTC
by Роберт
makc wrote:
Роберт wrote: I can't think of any event pairs that have a space-like separation that are used for calculating time.
what are you talking about, every clock on earth is space-separated from any other clock. there are probably dozens of totally independent separate atomic clocks used to maintain utc or whatever system our daily time is based on, and while they are in agreement on earth, they will not be on your spaceship. which one are you going to use for your measurements?

I really don't think you understand what you are talking about. Let's start by having you clarify what you're saying. What do you mean by "space-separated", and how does this relate to me talking about event pairs with a space-like separation vs a time-like separation?

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:31 pm UTC
by makc
sigh. millions of clocks that show 22:31 right now in my time zone are "separated", or whatever word you use, in a sense that somebody moving around fast enough will see them as 22:22, 22:26, 23:59 etc at the time X on board.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:48 pm UTC
by Роберт

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 9:53 pm UTC
by makc
great, so what do you call an interval between a clock on your wrist showing 22:52 and a clock in your kitchen showing 22:52?

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:03 pm UTC
by Роберт
makc wrote:great, so what do you call an interval between a clock on your wrist showing 22:52 and a clock in your kitchen showing 22:52?

I have no idea what you mean by that. With no event, there's no space-time interval to consider, just space. If you have events, like the clocks updating to 22:53, then you'll have space-time. The interval between the two events will likely be time-like. In order for the interval to be space-like, they would have to be synchronized to within roughly 3 ns for any reference frame, given that they are a meter apart.

I think this discussion of events (which you brought up) is confusing the issue, anyway. It's really pretty simple.

makc wrote:there are probably dozens of totally independent separate atomic clocks used to maintain utc or whatever system our daily time is based on, and while they are in agreement on earth, they will not be on your spaceship. which one are you going to use for your measurements?

To measure nix, you would just need to know the amount of time that passed on one spaceship clock and one earth clock. Then you could take the ratio. If, for example, I go on a trip and return 2 years later according to the earth clock but 1 year later according to my spaceship clock, my trip was at nix 2.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 8:16 am UTC
by makc
To measure nix, you would just need to know the amount of time that passed on one spaceship clock and one earth clock. Then you could take the ratio. If, for example, I go on a trip and return 2 years later according to the earth clock but 1 year later according to my spaceship clock, my trip was at nix 2.
Three things about this:

1 it does leave the nix ratio undefined for any trip where final frame is not re-sync-ed with initial frame,

2 it averages whole trip, and you can't have a plot of nix by travel time because of 1, and

3 it does depend on the choice of clocks which means there might be a range of values for the same trip. e.g. I assume all clocks on board will be time-shifted upon return because different parts of ship followed different path in space - basically same effect that you have between ship and earth on smaller scale. you could increase this flying really close to Sagittarius A*, for example, so your right arm could be like hours older than your left one in the end... this will probably create serious problems with blood circulation :twisted:

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 5:43 pm UTC
by Роберт
makc wrote:
To measure nix, you would just need to know the amount of time that passed on one spaceship clock and one earth clock. Then you could take the ratio. If, for example, I go on a trip and return 2 years later according to the earth clock but 1 year later according to my spaceship clock, my trip was at nix 2.
Three things about this:

1 it does leave the nix ratio undefined for any trip where final frame is not re-sync-ed with initial frame,

2 it averages whole trip, and you can't have a plot of nix by travel time because of 1, and

3 it does depend on the choice of clocks which means there might be a range of values for the same trip. e.g. I assume all clocks on board will be time-shifted upon return because different parts of ship followed different path in space - basically same effect that you have between ship and earth on smaller scale. you could increase this flying really close to Sagittarius A*, for example, so your right arm could be like hours older than your left one in the end... this will probably create serious problems with blood circulation :twisted:

Well, I mean, in that case of 3, the nix for those different locations are actually different. So one arm may have actually traveled at nix 2.005 while the other traveled at nix 2. No biggie. This stuff you're bringing up now is question about the feasibility of measuring nix, and has nothing to do with your event-pair thing and dividing by zero. Is this an intentional change of topic because you realize that the first objection doesn't really make sense?

Anyway, measuring nix shouldn't be an issue so any time your relative speeds are approximately the same. In cases when your relative speeds are dramatically different, your ability to measure nix will be reduced in proportion to the distance between the two references for which nix is being measured.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 9:28 pm UTC
by makc
Is this an intentional change of topic because you realize that the first objection doesn't really make sense?
I am having troubles forcing myself to continue posting in this thread because of this kind of attitude on your part. The topic is not changed. The event pairs I was originally talking about and
If you have events, like the clocks updating to 22:53
are the same thing. The objections are valid. You dismiss it and put extra effort to imply something about me personally, why should I bother to continue. Have your nix, please. I don't care.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:32 pm UTC
by Роберт
makc wrote:
Is this an intentional change of topic because you realize that the first objection doesn't really make sense?
I am having troubles forcing myself to continue posting in this thread because of this kind of attitude on your part. The topic is not changed. The event pairs I was originally talking about and
If you have events, like the clocks updating to 22:53
are the same thing. The objections are valid. You dismiss it and put extra effort to imply something about me personally, why should I bother to continue. Have your nix, please. I don't care.

I apologize for my poor skill at online communication. Certainly I don't have an attitude that would make it less desirable to post in this thread, and certainly I am not intending to imply anything about your personally, except perhaps that from your posts it appears that you don't understand some of the important facts related to the current topic, but that's not meant as an insult or a slight. I clearly came across incorrectly, so I beg your forgiveness. It is important, if you're going to be discussing things in a relativistic context, that you understand the concepts of time-like intervals vs space-like intervals, etc. Please be assured that I mean you no insult, and I assume you are an intelligent person.

Since you say your original quote still applies, I'm pretty baffled. Let's break this down to something really simple. So, no spaceship. One device used to measure time elapsed. In my mind, all devices used to measure elapsed time are going to be using events with time-like intervals between them. You are proposing measuring time elapsed using events with space-like intervals between them (or perhaps light-like). Can you describe such device in use?

BTW: measuring nix in this situation is probably not necessary, since the time travel is based on purely relativistic effects, which you can calculate if you know the relative speeds.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:07 am UTC
by gmalivuk
makc wrote:The event pairs I was originally talking about and
If you have events, like the clocks updating to 22:53
are the same thing.
If you wish to be understood when talking about relativistic effects, then, you should take care to use the existing vocabulary in the conventional way to describe such effects. When you aren't understood because you're not using words the same way, it's nobody else's fault.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 3:12 pm UTC
by makc
This is a check-in post to let you know I have seen your replies. Then, I'm less like that guy and more like this guy, so please continue the thread where I have interrupted it.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Fri Dec 21, 2012 7:36 pm UTC
by eSOANEM
No, given that last post, I'm pretty sure you're this guy.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 4:02 pm UTC
by brenok
If we're quoting strips now, I'd suggest this one

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 12:45 am UTC
by PM 2Ring
makc wrote:great, so what do you call an interval between a clock on your wrist showing 22:52 and a clock in your kitchen showing 22:52?

Assuming the two clocks are synchronized, then the spacetime interval between them is space-like, and since they are at rest with respect to each other and to you, in your frame the separation between the two events is purely space-like, with a zero temporal component.

Special Relativity tells us that the type of a spacetime interval is invariant, i.e., all observers will agree on whether a particular interval is space-like, light-like or time-like. So if we're comparing the time rates as measured by different observers between a given pair of events we will never be in a situation where one observer claims the separation is time-like and another claims the separation is space-like.

Re: Unit of Time Travel

Posted: Mon Jan 14, 2013 10:16 pm UTC
by Роберт
More like this guy perhaps:
Spoiler:
Image