Meta discussion

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VectorZero
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby VectorZero » Tue Jan 11, 2011 10:57 am UTC

Dr Ug wrote:Adacore's post just made me reread the options. I am adding an addendum to "2" - they can "try" to take back the "hammer" (ie the person who unhammered can unvote), but in all my games if it was indeed the hammer, all votes / unvotes after said hammer won't count.
Pretty much this. I interpreted take back votes to mean unvote and continue play, but that the mod would implement night based on the status of the game at the time of the hammer. So, you couldn't get hammered and then use a day ability for instance.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Adacore » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:03 am UTC

Yeah, ok - I agree with Option 2 on that proviso.

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roband
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:05 am UTC

Yeah, I can see how that could work. Especially if there's rules like "needs 1 more vote than normal to lynch" or something, that not all the players are aware of.

But it should still be specified pregame, IMO

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby VectorZero » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:10 am UTC

[redacted]
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.

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roband
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:18 am UTC

Ok, but in the instance that triggered this discussion, those rules weren't adhered to.

Mainly because of people's differing views "of what I'd do as a mod".

What I mean is that looking forwards, it should be explicitly stated what will and will not be tolerated once the hammer has fallen. So there should be more detail in the 'standard rules' maybe.

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby VectorZero » Tue Jan 11, 2011 11:39 am UTC

Yeah, sorry, I realized after i posted that that particular rule was open to interpretation, hence the redacting.

I agree with your subsequent points.
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Dr Ug
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Dr Ug » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:02 pm UTC

Sure, but in this game it was explicitly stated - that night didn't start until mod declared it so. Just because the mod wanted a different rule, doesn't make it so - he should have changed that rule. It had nothing to do with "what I would have done" as mod.
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roband
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Tue Jan 11, 2011 12:08 pm UTC

Dr Ug wrote:Sure, but in this game it was explicitly stated - that night didn't start until mod declared it so.


Does it say that in BigNose's OP? I can't find it.

The closest to anything regarding what we're discussing is:

7. If you die, don't say anything for the rest of the game except a simple, "Bah, you got me," or "Urrghh" which reveals no information. Seriously, dead people, you are dead, stay that way. YOU ARE DEAD DEAD DEAD DEAD!


IMO, once the hammer falls, you're dead. And, as such, should not say anything else.
The key part of that quote is "reveals no information".

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Weeks » Tue Jan 11, 2011 2:55 pm UTC

Dr Ug wrote:I am adding an addendum to "2" - they can "try" to take back the "hammer" (ie the person who unhammered can unvote), but in all my games if it was indeed the hammer, all votes / unvotes after said hammer won't count.
Weeks wrote:2; the mod chooses the first hammer to happen if there were unvotes or anything.
So, yeah, again, 2.

@Krong: 1, 2, and 3 of your post are the very things we are discussing now: a new rule. I think it should reflect the needs of our players in our current time, not what was said ages past or on another forum, because we don't play too much like that.
4 is dealt with using Ug's Proviso (which I had already mentioned)
5: hammering to silence is a strategy derived from older rules; like gaming the system. We can choose to make it invalid if we want, it's not like that strategy is so necessary or useful. The mods can still alter the rules slightly in their games to enforce immediate hammer if they want.
6: I agree.
7: I think that's all moot if the mod doesn't explicitly state that "you can't PM someone who claimed mason" or "you cannot talk after the hammer". I think game rules should be explicit always.
8: I concur.
9: I believe we're not basing our game on real-life mafia or anything other than the Mafia that was played in this forum for about two years, and the way we play right now.

The thing is, I think talking after the hammer isn't really necessary when playing, especially as town. Still, I don't think it should be enforced that players can't do it in all games since most of the time it doesn't matter if people talk anyway, and I think players should not decide what happens, that's the job of the Mod.

roband wrote:IMO, once the hammer falls, you're dead. And, as such, should not say anything else.
The key part of that quote is "reveals no information".
For this reason, mods usually reveal roles/alignments on the following day, not right away. You can't (or shouldn't) give any more credence to something the hammered says after they are lynched, than before they were. Whatever the hammered says only gets out of bounds if they are confirmed dead, by the mod, because by then they are no longer part of the game.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby VectorZero » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:06 pm UTC

BTW, I did notice your point the first read through, Weeks.

Ideally, the moderator would use these people as an example and exile them immediately. If that is not a feasible option due to number of players, then the game should be reset with the understanding that any further similar behavior will result in exile of the players that committed the offense. If the moderator is set on their decision, then make your objection known and either quit or accept that you are in a game with a generous moderator. Keep that in mind when considering joining games with this moderator in the future.
Whoa. Remind me never to play on mafiascum. Harsh.

The fact that this discussion occurred at all means we do need to address it in game. Perhaps all active mods should clarify their position in thread and new games should highlight their policy?
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Tue Jan 11, 2011 3:07 pm UTC

Yes. I agree with that idea VZ

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Lataro
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Lataro » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:38 pm UTC

Agreed. Without clear consensus on this matter, mods should include how they wish that handled explicitly.

Perhaps something as simple as, provided the addendum to number two by Dr Ug, since I don't believe anyone currently means in in the strict interpretation, and no one has provided an additional option via choice 5, that even taking one of the above choices and pasting it into the rules in the OP would be the easiest way, since any confusion over what was meant could be looked up in this discussion and clarified if need be.

Q. How do you think players should conduct themselves after a hammer post in a game thread? For the purposes of this question, assume the hammer vote is readily apparent as one.

Choice 1. Players are free to continue discussion as if it didn't matter that the hammer was made until the mod calls for night.
Choice 2. Players are free to continue discussion, voting, and unvoting, even attempting to undoing the hammer, until a mod calls for night. Hammer is still hammer though, if it actually is, and can not be taken back.
Choice 3. Players should stop any game related discussion, except any post they had already prepared, and the hammer vote had ninja'ed, provided they were not the lynch target, and the hammer didn't change anything they had planned to say.
Choice 4. Players should stop all game related discussion entirely, if you were ninja'ed by a hammer, then you should not post what you planned to.
Choice 5. Any other action that is not yet considered, please be specific if you choose this.


If anyone actually feels the hammer should be able to be taken back, which I don't believe anyone does in context of recent discussion, it could always fall under an option 5 if they feel like they could make a good case for it.
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roband
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Tue Jan 11, 2011 4:41 pm UTC

I'm still 3.

I would say 4 was acceptable, if it was made clear beforehand.

If I'm writing up a big ol' post and get ninja'd by two people voting and hammering, I'm going to post that post regardless of the hammer, tbh.

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Dr Ug » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:43 am UTC

roband wrote:
Dr Ug wrote:Sure, but in this game it was explicitly stated - that night didn't start until mod declared it so.


Does it say that in BigNose's OP? I can't find it.
Rules in Twins wrote:6. Once I say that it's nighttime, do not post in the thread AT ALL. Minor off topicness will be tolerated but please, do not discuss the game during night.
Once I say it's nighttime. Not once you think the hammer has happened.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby _infina_ » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:02 am UTC

I am a firm believer in option 4. I will now state here that all of my games will follow that.
Spoiler:
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Wed Jan 12, 2011 9:11 am UTC

Dr Ug wrote:
roband wrote:
Dr Ug wrote:Sure, but in this game it was explicitly stated - that night didn't start until mod declared it so.


Does it say that in BigNose's OP? I can't find it.
Rules in Twins wrote:6. Once I say that it's nighttime, do not post in the thread AT ALL. Minor off topicness will be tolerated but please, do not discuss the game during night.
Once I say it's nighttime. Not once you think the hammer has happened.


But we're not talking about the mechanic of talking after a mod has posted the closing message for the day.

We're talking about posting after the hammer, but before that message. Which isn't mentioned at all, because it's something completely different. What we're discussing, effectively, is: does hammer = night?

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Zid » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:18 pm UTC

roband wrote:
Dr Ug wrote:
roband wrote:
Dr Ug wrote:Sure, but in this game it was explicitly stated - that night didn't start until mod declared it so.


Does it say that in BigNose's OP? I can't find it.
Rules in Twins wrote:6. Once I say that it's nighttime, do not post in the thread AT ALL. Minor off topicness will be tolerated but please, do not discuss the game during night.
Once I say it's nighttime. Not once you think the hammer has happened.


But we're not talking about the mechanic of talking after a mod has posted the closing message for the day.

We're talking about posting after the hammer, but before that message. Which isn't mentioned at all, because it's something completely different. What we're discussing, effectively, is: does hammer = night?


Dr Ug is responding to your conversation with him about the specific game, and he's quoting BigNose's rules from his OP of Twins.

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:38 pm UTC

What I'm saying is that the quoted rule is relevant to what I've been saying.

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Weeks » Wed Jan 12, 2011 2:49 pm UTC

Yes, and Ug is saying that hammer is not night because you need to wait till the mod says it's night.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Wed Jan 12, 2011 3:04 pm UTC

The rule doesn't say, it's not night until I say so.

It says..
*realisation*
This doesn't matter. The specific game doesn't really matter. Mods just need to make it explicit what the rules are.

Sorry if I got overaggressive.

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Weeks » Wed Jan 12, 2011 5:06 pm UTC

I still think it does matter, because I believe we need a better, clearer set of (default) rules, or have the mods be more explicit with their rules/not complain to their players if they don't follow their vague rules.
TaintedDeity wrote:Tainted Deity
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
Dthen wrote:FUCK CHRISTMAS FUCK EVERYTHING FUCK YOU TOO FUCK OFF

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Lataro » Wed Jan 12, 2011 6:17 pm UTC

going back to a game that I think had the "standard rules" in it that were not modified (newbie myth, my first game here!)

Rules:
1. Do not talk about the game outside this thread. You can post in the "discussion" thread in a spoiler tag labeled with this game's name - there you can say anything you want. (Be sure not to read spoilers for games you're playing in!) Other than that, see rule #2.
2. DO NOT TALK ABOUT THE GAME OUTSIDE THIS THREAD.
3. Please stay on topic.
4. Don't just read through the whole game without posting; if you need to drop out, we'll keep a running tab of players who want to be replacements.
5. Conversely, don't spam spam the thread with low content posts; it makes it hard to actually analyze you.
6. If you aren't part of the game, please post in a separate, forbidden to players, thread for outside analysis. (ie. discussion thread, in spoiler tags labeled with this game's name). Posting at the start of the game with something like "I'll be watching this *munches popcorn*" is fine.
7. Once one of us says that it's nighttime, do not post in the thread AT ALL.
8. If you die, don't say anything for the rest of the game except a simple, "Bah, you got me," which reveals no information if you wish.
9. You may not post verbatim or quote from your role PM. Paraphrasing is fine.
10. You may not edit your posts. This is to preempt the possibility of cheating by sending messages to other people and then editing them out.
11. YOU MAY NOT EDIT YOUR POSTS. If you made a mistake of some kind in a post, add a new post to correct it (the common term used for this is "EBWOP" = "Edit by way of post".
12. Please use bold text when you have a question or action that the mods need to read. Please don't use it otherwise.
13. Have fun! Posts that are full of mythological flavor goodness are highly encouraged :D

How would you change them to be clearer? Perhaps some of them, like the one about when it is night, should have a "checkbox" for the mod to select which one is being used. Something like...

[] It is night when hammer is cast
[] It is night when I say it is night
[X] You guys are screwed, you'll never know when night is!

I dunno, assuming those rules are the standard ones and not edited for that game I took them from, how would people alter them to reflect current needs?
DS9, after being told the story and moral of the boy who cried wolf by Julian.

Garak: "Are you sure that's the moral?"
Julian: "Of course. What else could it be?"
Garak: "Never tell the same lie twice."

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Mavketl » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:21 pm UTC

I suspect that rule 13 was a bit more game-specific... :P

Anyway, rule 7 can just be elaborated on with the relevant information about when it is night. I don't think you need checkboxes really, just add the one (for example "It is night when the mod declares it is") that you want. Or are you suggesting a checkbox because it's easier for mods who copy-paste the whole thing?

Also, I think rule 5 is almost never enforced and maybe a bit redundant. When someone is spamming no-content crap really badly, town generally just lynches them.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Weeks » Wed Jan 12, 2011 7:39 pm UTC

The Rules wrote:1. You may only talk about this game in this thread and in an appropriately named spoiler in the Discussion Thread. If you are not playing this game, you may not post in this thread.
2. You may not play to lose. This will be dealt with at the mod's discretion (expect an immediate modkill if you play against your faction).
3. Do not lurk. If you no longer want to or can't play, ask the mod as soon as possible for a replacement. If there are no replacements, you must keep playing until a replacement arrives or the mod decides to modkill you.
4. You may not edit your posts.
5. You may not post your role PM, or quote verbatim from it. You may paraphrase.
6. Votes and questions must be posted in

bold, on a newline.

You may also ask questions to the mod in PM.
7. You may not post game content in this thread after you are dead. (You may post death flavor.) You are dead when the mod says so. If you are lynched, you are dead when the hammer is cast. Else, you are dead when the mod says so.
8. You may not post game content at night. It is night when the mod says so. It is night when hammer is cast.
9. The mod's decisions are final.


You delete the appropriate phrase, and remove strikethrough from the other. Anything else can be edited if you really need it.

Also, forum wide I think we should ban first time offenders to game rules, permaban if they do it twice.

I wanted to add something about etiquette, but that hardly fits with game rules that have to be followed no matter what. Especially that thing about insulting other players, or posting triggers without posting trigger warnings/spoilering. Perhaps that falls into an "Etiquette" post somewhere else.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Van » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:03 pm UTC

If you're twerking the generic ruleset, you really should break it down into two categories: rules and suggestions.

"do not talk about the game outside of spoilered comments in discussion" is a rule.
"make contentful posts" is a suggestion. Active lurkers are generally left to the players to handle.

And if you're going to propose banning people for "offenses", you need to clearly define what offenses are, and probably have write up some guidelines on how to avoid them. "Don't reveal your entire scum team" seems like a relevant example, it's sort of obvious, but it has still popped up a couple times in the last few months, iirc.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Weeks » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:24 pm UTC

That's the thing, I think players should handle active lurkers, not complete lurkers, so "do not lurk" is a rule, not a suggestion. Maybe...it can be modified to say: "Do not lurk for more than 24 hours. If you think you won't be able to post for 24 hours, PM the mod in advance, or state it in thread, bolded on a new line."

I don't get that thing about guidelines...I'd rather make the rules as clear as possible. If someone doesn't understand that they shouldn't out their whole faction, they shouldn't be playing mafia. If they really don't understand the rules, they should PM the mod.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Weeks » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:26 pm UTC

That came out so elitist...what I mean is not that new players shouldn't learn to play, and they will likely make mistakes, but it should be clear that you shouldn't play against your faction, because you're not the only one who is playing.
TaintedDeity wrote:Tainted Deity
suffer-cait wrote:One day I'm gun a go visit weeks and discover they're just a computer in a trashcan at an ice cream shop.
Dthen wrote:FUCK CHRISTMAS FUCK EVERYTHING FUCK YOU TOO FUCK OFF

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Lataro » Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:50 pm UTC

The 24 hours part is no good, in my opinion. That is generally reserved for turbo's only, and inactivity for a longer length of time is more accepted in non-turbo.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Dr Ug » Wed Jan 12, 2011 10:41 pm UTC

I am against banning / permabanning for any rule infringement. I mean look at the whole discussion around infinas alleged spoiler reading thing - we're never going to come to a consensus on that, so I don't think it's worth trying.

Again, coming up with some "standard" rules seems a bit silly - the rules are rewritten / edited in pretty much every single game on this forum. If people want to edit the standard ruleset to match what they feel it should be - they should do that - when they mod a game. And guess what - that's exactly what happens already.

As for "don't post after I say it's night" being ambiguous, that's only because you're making up a rule that says don't post after the hammer. That rule didn't exist in the game we're talking about (or in the "standard" rules). So what makes you think that anyone would have a reason not to post between the "hammer" and when mod calls night? There is no mention of this "rule" in the Rules, therefore it doesn't exist.

I still think this is a silly conversation, as each mod is just going to choose their own implementation. The only real conclusion from this is if you want the rule to be "don't post after the hammer", you should change rule 7 to be:

7. Do not post after the hammer, as advertised by votals.

if you want it to remain as it is (ie don't post until I call night), leave it as it is.

7. Do not post after the mod calls night.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby VectorZero » Wed Jan 12, 2011 11:14 pm UTC

I also dislike the prospect of banning, hence my response to the quote from mafiascum. People make mistakes, they learn. We get the occasional troll, once we catch on we ignore them, they go away.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Weeks » Thu Jan 13, 2011 2:27 am UTC

Dr Ug wrote:I still think this is a silly conversation
We're trying to come up with a standard set so that you don't have to edit it and so we can have better rules that we all understand/agree on; obviously every mod can change it, but that doesn't mean they have to.

I mean, how many games have you seen with rules post copied and pasted verbatim? You can just add flavor or a new mechanic. The rest remains intact, and we all know what they are. I think like this we should at least have less people complaining over vague rules.

But whatever.
TaintedDeity wrote:Tainted Deity
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Dthen wrote:FUCK CHRISTMAS FUCK EVERYTHING FUCK YOU TOO FUCK OFF

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:49 pm UTC

*waits to see how MoA deals with a hammer nearly 12 hours before deadline*

at least, it's a hammer by my maths

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby Mavketl » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:59 pm UTC

Gee roband, way to give me a heart attack.

Your math is off by a whoopin' 3 votes.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:59 pm UTC

really? I will count up again

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby VectorZero » Fri Jan 14, 2011 1:59 pm UTC

Also, wrong thread.
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:01 pm UTC

Yeah, guess who added up the votes from the current day with those that NaR had on him at the close of the last day? (Put night in for day, obviously)
Haha. Sorry guys.

Original thing posted here because it related to previous conversation.

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Re: Meta discussion

Postby VectorZero » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:17 pm UTC

You are posting in the (meta) discussion referring to a game currently in play, are you not?
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:19 pm UTC

roband wrote:*waits to see how MoA deals with a hammer nearly 12 hours before deadline*

at least, it's a hammer by my maths


That post was about meta, regardless of which game it was.

Whatever. I can edit the posts if you'd rather?

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VectorZero
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby VectorZero » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:34 pm UTC

*shrug*

I'm not the forums police; do as you like. However, most games have a rule against posting outside the game thread.
Van wrote:Fireballs don't lie.

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roband
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Re: Meta discussion

Postby roband » Fri Jan 14, 2011 2:35 pm UTC

I'm not part of the game. I'm observing.

Apologies if I did it wrong. My head's not in the game today.

*goes*


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