Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (N5)

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wam
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby wam » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:06 pm UTC

Mark_Cangila wrote:
plytho wrote:Mark_Cangila: I have no read yet so some questions:
@mark: why are you voting MoA?
Also, those spoilers make your reads list harder to read and don’t really help so please don’t use them next time.
Also, could you order the list from town to scum?
Could you elaborate your moody read? Which points are irrelevant?
What’s the problem with mpolo’s wincon speculation? Do you think he’s scum for doing it?
Sabrar had a lot of content in his first post, did you not read it? What’s suspicious?


I'm voting MoA in the same sorta way I voted for Vicarin in B99. I would rather not completly random vote so I'll pick some minor thing and vote on it.
Looking over moody's posts, especially his newer one, they look a lot better. That read wasn't great and was done in a rush at 11 PM.
On the topic of Mpolo wincon, I seem to have misinterpreted their points. I thought Mpolo was alluding to wincon as something secret like was done in Alien Warfare.
On the sabrar point, I did not read his first post closely enough so I missed some of it.


Was reading back through marks post and noticed the underlined. Surely that misinterpretation can only occur if Mark is scum who hasn't realised the town win con is in the OP?

Mark care to explain?
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby plytho » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:10 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:I really am taking it easy this game, but I'm surprised that no one's suspicions were raised by this decision after game started and alignments were known instead of announcing it in signups or publicly before game. Specifically LaserGuy, plytho and Mark should have had raised eyebrows. Maybe plytho is compensating for our D1 TvsT fight last game though. I need to think about this more.

Not related to the TvT, I just figured that taking it easy was your "thing" this game. Why Laser, Mark and me specifically?

@Mark: with that unvote you've pretty much reset all the scum reads you had. Time to make a new list, no?

MasterOfAll wrote:moody - In the games where I play along at home, I often find him scummy on D1, and this game feels the same
That's not really a read, is it? When you play along and home and you find moody scummy D1, how often is he actually scum?
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:12 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:BoomFrog
BoomFrog wrote:Why? plytho is savvy enough to see the obvious joke there...

Madge wrote:i literally thought it was a stupid joke because OF COURSE it's not a mass claim D1

Do you think that the two are similar? Is LaserGuy's scum-read on Madge justified because he expected a serious answer?
They are similar but not the same. I think most would read MoA's claim as a joke and LG's idea as crazy but serious. But more importantly, even as a joke, I am surprised Madge didn't talk about the idea, but she gave zero response until prompted. I do think that shows lack of confidence in how to react naturally, and LaserGuy's read is justified. Plytho was confident that his read of MoA's claim as a joke was natural and didn't self censor.

I recall you having another older question I didn't answer. Digging it up now...
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby wam » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:14 pm UTC

Boomfrog is voting twice?


Didn't bold it originally
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:36 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@BoomFrog: please explain your read on SuicideJunkie and MasterOfAll

Oh, I guess it was this which I've done anyway. Never mind.

plytho wrote:Not related to the TvT, I just figured that taking it easy was your "thing" this game. Why Laser, Mark and me specifically?
You three tend to bring up that I'm acting differently from previous games most often. Bessie and Sabrar note the differences but try to read me freshly each game. Others seem to have mostly given up on trying to get a read of me and generally give me a pass D1. I guess I'm pleased that I've developed a meta where I'm allowed to take it easy if I want to, but I'm not going to always have a "thing" every game. I haven't had a significant "thing" since chaos mafia. Gambit's are works of art, and you can't force art.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:37 pm UTC

wam wrote:Boomfrog is voting twice?


Didn't bold it originally

For the record, I am pretty sure I shouldn't be voting twice.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Mon Dec 17, 2018 9:54 pm UTC

wam wrote:Boomfrog is voting twice?

Oops, no I've edited to fix. This is why unvotes are helpful :P
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Mon Dec 17, 2018 10:36 pm UTC

wam wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote:
plytho wrote:Mark_Cangila: I have no read yet so some questions:
@mark: why are you voting MoA?
Also, those spoilers make your reads list harder to read and don’t really help so please don’t use them next time.
Also, could you order the list from town to scum?
Could you elaborate your moody read? Which points are irrelevant?
What’s the problem with mpolo’s wincon speculation? Do you think he’s scum for doing it?
Sabrar had a lot of content in his first post, did you not read it? What’s suspicious?


I'm voting MoA in the same sorta way I voted for Vicarin in B99. I would rather not completly random vote so I'll pick some minor thing and vote on it.
Looking over moody's posts, especially his newer one, they look a lot better. That read wasn't great and was done in a rush at 11 PM.
On the topic of Mpolo wincon, I seem to have misinterpreted their points. I thought Mpolo was alluding to wincon as something secret like was done in Alien Warfare.
On the sabrar point, I did not read his first post closely enough so I missed some of it.


Was reading back through marks post and noticed the underlined. Surely that misinterpretation can only occur if Mark is scum who hasn't realised the town win con is in the OP?

Mark care to explain?

I don't see how this makes me scum. I didn't read the op as closely as I should have.

BoomFrog wrote:.

I really am taking it easy this game, but I'm surprised that no one's suspicions were raised by this decision after game started and alignments were known instead of announcing it in signups or publicly before game. Specifically LaserGuy, plytho and Mark should have had raised eyebrows. Maybe plytho is compensating for our D1 TvsT fight last game though. I need to think about this more.

The reason I didn't mention it was because I have become sorta used to less of a boom gambit or none in the last few games, as I said in my spoilered reads post.

MasterOfAll wrote: Mark_Cangila - That last post of his where he criticizes himself and disagrees with 'a lot of' his own points (without specifying which, if any, he stands behind) is plain odd

I have looked back at it. I agree with my Bessie read, my Boom read, and maybe my Madge read pending reread.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby MasterOfAll » Mon Dec 17, 2018 11:56 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
MasterOfAll wrote:moody - In the games where I play along at home, I often find him scummy on D1, and this game feels the same
That's not really a read, is it? When you play along and home and you find moody scummy D1, how often is he actually scum?
I'd say it is still a read, even if it's not a well argued or well communicated one. Basically, I'm saying that something in moody's playstyle usually pings me as scummy, and the same thing has happened in this game. But it is an overall feel, not the sort of thing where I can point to a specific quote or action as scummy. I can't tell you how often I was correct, because I don't have records of exactly which games I did find him scummy on D1, other than just a couple GoJoe posts on two of the more recent games. WoT - thought he was scummy D1, he flipped town. wam Chaos - did not think he was scummy D1, he was cult leader. So, based on a sample size of 2, horrible results. YMMV.

BoomFrog wrote:What did you think I ment when I said "tadpole"? I'm glad I amused you but why does that make me townie?
I assumed that 'tadpole' meant 'could one day grow up to be a frog', aka claiming to be vanilla in a non-vanilla game was cute but isn't really a gambit.

And, yes, being amused by something is a silly reason to give a town read. But, although you claim to be taking it easy this game, to me it seems that you are fully participating and being helpful, so I will stick with my town read of you.

Mark_Cangila wrote:
MasterOfAll wrote: Mark_Cangila - That last post of his where he criticizes himself and disagrees with 'a lot of' his own points (without specifying which, if any, he stands behind) is plain odd

I have looked back at it. I agree with my Bessie read, my Boom read, and maybe my Madge read pending reread.
Thanks for responding, but there isn't much meat to your bessie or BoomFrog reads, so hopefully you will have time to post more soon, including who you think are scum.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Madge » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:38 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:
Madge wrote:- moody's post looks good at first glance but i'm not happy with how many people are neutral. if you're gonna do reads then be more willing to put people on one side or the other.


That would be three out of eleven? One of whom is in his first game here, so I don't have any starting point for a read.


I more meant like "neutral with slight scum lean" is kind of in the neutral box (shoutout to So Kim) for me - it's equivocating, you know?. but all good.

BoomFrog wrote:Her last post is exactly what is expected from her but I expected it much sooner, not after everyone poked her about not acting normally.


Is this post on tone and schedule, boss? :lol:

RE: Mark - I think his taking back of his past post comes from a townie place.

I'm going to try and put some buckets around as I know people like reads lists. These are not in order and mostly from gut feel.

scummy:
Moody
SJ??????

townie:
Mark
Laserguy (due to groupthink tho)
mpolo
Sabrar
wam

????:
Boomfrog
Bessie
MoA

forgot about:
one more person i'm sorry for forgetting you but POST MORE

I got the tadpole joke from boomfrog. it amused me but not enough to put him into the town pile ;)
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby wam » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:34 am UTC

Mark_Cangila wrote:
wam wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote:
plytho wrote:Mark_Cangila: I have no read yet so some questions:
@mark: why are you voting MoA?
Also, those spoilers make your reads list harder to read and don’t really help so please don’t use them next time.
Also, could you order the list from town to scum?
Could you elaborate your moody read? Which points are irrelevant?
What’s the problem with mpolo’s wincon speculation? Do you think he’s scum for doing it?
Sabrar had a lot of content in his first post, did you not read it? What’s suspicious?


I'm voting MoA in the same sorta way I voted for Vicarin in B99. I would rather not completly random vote so I'll pick some minor thing and vote on it.
Looking over moody's posts, especially his newer one, they look a lot better. That read wasn't great and was done in a rush at 11 PM.
On the topic of Mpolo wincon, I seem to have misinterpreted their points. I thought Mpolo was alluding to wincon as something secret like was done in Alien Warfare.
On the sabrar point, I did not read his first post closely enough so I missed some of it.


Was reading back through marks post and noticed the underlined. Surely that misinterpretation can only occur if Mark is scum who hasn't realised the town win con is in the OP?

Mark care to explain?

I don't see how this makes me scum. I didn't read the op as closely as I should have.


Because the town win con should be in your role pm???

unvote

Vote mark
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby bessie » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:54 am UTC

mpolo wrote:Unfortunately, there hasn't been a lot of movement in thread.
Cool, then you should have time to do detailed analysis and a reads list.

Madge wrote:@bessie i'd be very interested why you're encouraging people to post more in such a direct way, i can only assume you DIDN'T submit a role that interacts with post contents in some way (don't claim either way because it's against the rules to do so obv), because that fishing would not be allowed if you had. but maybe you suspect someone else did. it's the sort of thing i can see someone doing.
Everyone should be posting without needing to be prodded by me. Like you are; you have an extraordinary amount of content so far this game, by D1 Madge standards. You can assume what you want as to whether or not I am fishing or breaking Rule #7 by speculating. But the Sample Town role PM in the OP contains a posting restriction, so if I think about the example while I consider my setup spec, it is possible for other roles to have posting restrictions as well. And I think it’s fair to speculate based on public mod-provided information. If the mods disagree they can slap a penalty on me.

Madge wrote:mpolo's point about sabrar's complaint about the rule is interesting, but you know how Sabrar is with his Opinions about rules, I think he'd still be upset if he was scum. but again a townie place when he could jump on the sabrar wagon if he was scum.
So Madge, what exactly do you think is Sabrar’s complaint, and mpolo's point, and why is it interesting?

Sabrar wrote:And as I have explicitly linked to, scum!moody went out of his way to not make the same joke.
Both ways it’s still the same joke.

Sabrar, I really liked the previous format more, though it seems like I was the only one. I think it gave me better insight into how you read the game. By the way, I failed at the homework assignment. Is it compare Texas and Chaos to each other? Because I’m not seeing anything yet.

Mark_Cangila wrote:I disagree here. I think SJ could easily be scum if there is daychat. From what I've picked up on, many players on here are very reluctant to advise mafia partners, especially newbies.
Depends on the players. You in particular do not like to be coached, you like to appear natural, so you do not receive a lot of coaching from your partners. Compare to Peaceful Whale and Hari Seldon in Newbie New Year. Or if you want to go back four years, you can read Smalltown PyP, where newbie bessie was being heavily coached by the brilliant scum team of Madge, SDK, and Lawrencelot.

SuicideJunkie wrote:- "Many" threads is an exaggeration. I've read a few (3-5?) recent ones for entertainment, not for studying and taking notes.
Interesting, you said in this post you read DS9, which was so long ago it was before I was even playing regularly.

mpolo wrote:SuicideJunkie has jumped in with both feet, which is to be commended. His content shows that he has done a lot of reading/preparation before starting, so, while I'm inclined to give the newbie some slack, he seems less new than he otherwise might.
Well he implies in the previous post I quoted that he didn’t, that he only casually read a few recent games. And the DS9 Secret Santra from 2013.

MasterOfAll wrote:bessie - seems like normal bessie to me, but being bessie, I'm just neutral on her for now
Interesting, no one ever says that about me. [/sarcasm]

MasterOfAll wrote:Madge - I'm not going to go find it now, but there was 1 specific post she made that gave me strong town vibes
I would be interested in knowing which post you found townie. There are only eight so you should have time to find it before deadline. [/actual request]

BoomFrog wrote: Gambit's are works of art, and you can't force art.
+1, QFT, <3. You don’t need to have a gambit every game, just the ones Vicarin is playing. :P

MasterOfAll wrote:Basically, I'm saying that something in moody's playstyle usually pings me as scummy
Hahaha another thing no one ever says. [/sarcasm]

Hey, is that another Madge post?? That’s like 11 on D1, and some of them actually have a lot of words in them! I wonder again why the atypical D1 enthusiasm? Not that I don’t like it, I’ve been prodding you for more D1 (D2, D3, etc) content for years.

Madge wrote:forgot about:
one more person i'm sorry for forgetting you but POST MORE
Hahahahahaha, Madge prodding plytho for more content . . . Oh me yarm. . . :lol: :lol: :lol:

Post count, including confirmation posts:
Spoiler:
bessie: 10
BoomFrog: 15
LaserGuy: 12
Madge: 11
Mark_Cangila: 8
MasterOfAll: 8
moody7277: 7
mpolo: 7
plytho: 14
Sabrar: 4
SuicideJunkie: 12
wam: 14

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby plytho » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:35 am UTC

Stuff I'm thinking about:

Wam vs Mark:
Wam seems to have caught mark slipping? It looks like a nice catch. Mark is definitely both saying scummy things and misunderstandig what wam is saying about those things.
Without a doubt this could come from scum!Mark. The question is, could this come from town!Mark?
I think it could? But it would require a thorough misunderstanding of what happened in alien warfare.
@Mark: why was the wincon stuff bad in alien warfare? Please be detailed in your explanation.


MoA's double standard: If you say bessie is bessie and put her in neutral for that, you can't say moody is moody and put him in scum.


@Bessie: could you do a reads list please?

Hmm, bessie being late with a reads list has been a scum tell before. The stuff with the post counts also has a rolefishy feeling to it.

Madge wrote:@laserguy: i didn't realise you were testing people with that, i literally thought it was a stupid joke because OF COURSE it's not a mass claim D1 (just like OF COURSE boomfrog won't really be barking all game or whatever). I'm kind of shocked so many people took it so seriously. if you want to make another joke that i'll respond to as though it were serious let me know.
LaserGuy was serious. The testing people part is beneficial but wasn't LaserGuy's main goal. (As far as I understand.)
It feels odd that madge didn't get that. Also not seeing what's different about Sabrar. (Although that might be because she knows what's going on and isn't allowed to say so?)
Hmm, increased Madge activity due to a feeling of responsibility towards buddies?
Also, how could you forget about me me me?


MoA: I agree with Sabrar's analysis.


scummy: Wam, Mark, MoA
suspicious: Bessie, Madge
null: moody, mpolo, BoomFrog, SuicideJunkie
townie:Sabrar, LaserGuy
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Sabrar » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:50 am UTC

Having availability issues (unfortunately will continue tomorrow as well), apologies for the briefer post. I appreciate all answers, if I don't react to them right now it probably means they are satisfactory.

MasterOfAll wrote:This game is supposed to be fun, and for me, posting some fluff makes it more fun.
I'm totally okay with you posting fluff, I had issues with you posting nothing but. And this should have been clear to you, you failed to address why you haven't been scum-hunting at all.

bessie wrote:I failed at the homework assignment. Is it compare Texas and Chaos to each other?
I goofed up and forgot to change the reference to the correct game in the final version. It's Texas and B99. All the while I was following along B99 it seemed to me that mpolo was just cruising along and lurking. He also had little content in Texas (speaking about D1 here) but at least he gave a couple opinions on other players. Now that he has started to provide these here as well I'm feeling better about him.

re Mark's 'slip': I don't think that it's that damning but would like to have a detailed explanation from Mark.
re Mark's retraction: I gave scum a pass before because they retracted their points after I challenged them (Pen Pal). This does not indicate townieness (but not necessarily scum either).

I propose a voting-block. Let's start with MasterOfAll.
Spoiler:
LaserGuy wrote:Town
LaserGuy
plytho
Sabrar
bessie
moody
SuicideJunkie

mpolo
BoomFrog
MasterOfAll

Madge
Mark_Cangila
wam

Scum

Sabrar wrote:Votable list for now: Mark_Cangila, MasterOfAll, wam. Second tier is Madge and BoomFrog

BoomFrog wrote:Town:
LG
Bessie
Sabrar
SJ

plytho
moody
mpolo
mark
Madge

wam
MoA

plytho wrote:scummy: Wam, Mark, MoA
suspicious: Bessie, Madge
null: moody, mpolo, BoomFrog, SuicideJunkie
townie:Sabrar, LaserGuy

@bessie, moody, mpolo: you're welcome to join.
@SuicideJunkie: please have a full read-list before the end of the day.
@Madge, Mark_Cangila, MasterOfAll, wam: if you happen to be a Vig then shoot someone tonight from this same group. Don't claim just yet.

Vote: MasterOfAll

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby plytho » Tue Dec 18, 2018 12:06 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:re Mark's retraction: I gave scum a pass before because they retracted their points after I challenged them (Pen Pal). This does not indicate townieness (but not necessarily scum either).
The odd thing is that I wasn't even really challenging Mark. Just asking for clarification. But he responded as though he was being challenged.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:23 pm UTC

wam wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote:
wam wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote:
plytho wrote:Mark_Cangila: I have no read yet so some questions:
@mark: why are you voting MoA?
Also, those spoilers make your reads list harder to read and don’t really help so please don’t use them next time.
Also, could you order the list from town to scum?
Could you elaborate your moody read? Which points are irrelevant?
What’s the problem with mpolo’s wincon speculation? Do you think he’s scum for doing it?
Sabrar had a lot of content in his first post, did you not read it? What’s suspicious?


I'm voting MoA in the same sorta way I voted for Vicarin in B99. I would rather not completly random vote so I'll pick some minor thing and vote on it.
Looking over moody's posts, especially his newer one, they look a lot better. That read wasn't great and was done in a rush at 11 PM.
On the topic of Mpolo wincon, I seem to have misinterpreted their points. I thought Mpolo was alluding to wincon as something secret like was done in Alien Warfare.
On the sabrar point, I did not read his first post closely enough so I missed some of it.


Was reading back through marks post and noticed the underlined. Surely that misinterpretation can only occur if Mark is scum who hasn't realised the town win con is in the OP?

Mark care to explain?

I don't see how this makes me scum. I didn't read the op as closely as I should have.


Because the town win con should be in your role pm???

unvote

Vote mark


This still doesn't add up. I know the wincon. I just didn't realize it was also in the OP. I therefore thought Mpolo was trying to sort town and scum based on their knowledge of the wincon. This seemed like the same mess that was Alien Warfare and pretty odd considering the wincon was standard.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby moody7277 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 2:26 pm UTC

Madge's latest post drips with OMGUS, with a slight seasoning of hypocrisy re the reads list at bottom. I'm going to remove the neutral part, and say my current votables are her, Mark, maybe wam.

On the MoA wagon, I don't have a strong enough feeling on him to join. The read on me cited by plytho, for example, is exactly the D1 read I'd expect him to remember from days of yore reinforced by reading current games, and the same kind of read say bessie gives me (Cynical View here: it's a lazy boilerplate read which goes along with the boatload of fluff Sabrar pointed out).
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:09 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
Sabrar wrote:re Mark's retraction: I gave scum a pass before because they retracted their points after I challenged them (Pen Pal). This does not indicate townieness (but not necessarily scum either).
The odd thing is that I wasn't even really challenging Mark. Just asking for clarification. But he responded as though he was being challenged.

Vote:MasterOfAll

That's pretty typical from me imo.

plytho wrote:Wam vs Mark:
Wam seems to have caught mark slipping? It looks like a nice catch. Mark is definitely both saying scummy things and misunderstanding what wam is saying about those things.
Without a doubt this could come from scum!Mark. The question is, could this come from town!Mark?
I think it could? But it would require a thorough misunderstanding of what happened in alien warfare.
@Mark: why was the wincon stuff bad in alien warfare? Please be detailed in your explanation.

It caused confusion that was unnecessary imo. While it may have caught wam that was pretty lucky and I don't think it should be reported. It could have easily caused a mislynch.

Also, I know see no issue in the wincon thing now. I understand it was being used for setup spec.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby plytho » Tue Dec 18, 2018 3:39 pm UTC

Mark_Cangila wrote:
plytho wrote:
Sabrar wrote:re Mark's retraction: I gave scum a pass before because they retracted their points after I challenged them (Pen Pal). This does not indicate townieness (but not necessarily scum either).
The odd thing is that I wasn't even really challenging Mark. Just asking for clarification. But he responded as though he was being challenged.

Vote:MasterOfAll

That's pretty typical from me imo.

Is it? Why do you think this is the case?

Mark_Cangila wrote:
plytho wrote:@Mark: why was the wincon stuff bad in alien warfare? Please be detailed in your explanation.

It caused confusion that was unnecessary imo. While it may have caught wam that was pretty lucky and I don't think it should be reported. It could have easily caused a mislynch.
That's simply not true. The wincon stuff caught just about everyone that wasn't town in alien warfare. It was bad for you because you were scum. It was great for town.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:26 pm UTC

I think it is pretty typical for me to act as if challenged. It's in my playstyle to act quite defensive when attacked. I showed it when the werewolf question came up in Meta Mafia.

I didn't even realize it had been so effective because I was scum, so I had bad memories of it. Also, I would argue that freezeblade's counterclaim is what killed me in Alien.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby plytho » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:36 pm UTC

Mark_Cangila wrote:I think it is pretty typical for me to act as if challenged. It's in my playstyle to act quite defensive when attacked. I showed it when the werewolf question came up in Meta Mafia.
My point is that you're acting defensive even though you're not being attacked. I was just asking for you to explain your view.

Mark_Cangila wrote:I didn't even realize it had been so effective because I was scum, so I had bad memories of it. Also, I would argue that freezeblade's counterclaim is what killed me in Alien.
Yeah, it makes sense for you to have bad memories of it. (And yes, Freezeblade counterclaiming you got you lynched. But you false claimed because it was clear you weren't town.)
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby dimochka » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:46 pm UTC

Votals:

wam (2): LaserGuy, MasterOfAll
MasterOfAll (3): BoomFrog, Sabrar, plytho
Mark_Cangila (1): wam

A bit over 1 Day + 4 Hours to go.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:56 pm UTC

moody7277 wrote:On the MoA wagon, I don't have a strong enough feeling on him to join. The read on me cited by plytho, for example, is exactly the D1 read I'd expect him to remember from days of yore reinforced by reading current games, and the same kind of read say bessie gives me (Cynical View here: it's a lazy boilerplate read which goes along with the boatload of fluff Sabrar pointed out).
This doesn't sound like a convincing reason to not vote MoA. Is your read purly from feeling? Can you point out anything specific that is townie about his play?
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Tue Dec 18, 2018 4:57 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote:I think it is pretty typical for me to act as if challenged. It's in my playstyle to act quite defensive when attacked. I showed it when the werewolf question came up in Meta Mafia.
My point is that you're acting defensive even though you're not being attacked. I was just asking for you to explain your view.

Attacked was likely bad wording. Mainly when people ask questions I always play to keep myself not-lynched as one of my higher priorities.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby wam » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:11 pm UTC

Yeah I found the win con stuff I alien really annoying which means it was great for town!
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby wam » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:11 pm UTC

My Top lynch choice is still Mark. MOA is my 2nd choice.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Dec 18, 2018 5:36 pm UTC

I still think I'd prefer wam or Madge but the case against MoA is pretty compelling. I'm fine with this.

I'll check back in tonight but I probably won't be around at deadline.

Vote MoA

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby moody7277 » Tue Dec 18, 2018 7:05 pm UTC

My original read of MoA was in the 3-4 range, as opposed to LG or plytho who I have at 7ish, so it's not a strong town read. I also have sufficient other people that I want to prioritize that pushing off an in depth look at him was feasible. With him being the wagon du jour, that would seem not to pertain.

MasterofAll

Spoiler:
post 1: proactive apology of future lurking, joke claim of vanilla and vote for SJ
post 2: fluff at Sabrar and SJ, metagaming the mods, wants info on LG claim plan before passing judgement
post 3: discusses LG's reasoning on claim, summarises by saying scum get more benefit out of it, credits LG with providing D1 discussion fodder. last line is the whole thing about "scum should't kill me because that would make me sad"

This was the point where I made my "slightly townie" read, which look to be based on the light-hearted tone of the posts, and the fact his idea for when the mass claim might be executed coincided with mine.

post 4: response to wam's vote of him, calls his reasoning crap, switches to voting wam.
post 5: attempt to justify post 4 as not OMGUS. reads list with Madge and BF as towniest, wam me and Mark as scummiest. also has Sabrar and LG as slightly scummy.

So, yeah. :?

post 6: deadline warning
post 7: response to plytho and BF criticising his reads, also friendly response to Mark


I can see that there is enough that with the proper perspective (Cynical View here) he is scummy enough to be voteable. My more moderate impression is that he's dropped to 0-1 on the scale.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Dec 18, 2018 9:13 pm UTC

I'm still here. Working on the reads list you all wanted. Apparently I've been here reading and typing for 3 hours so far?

Regardless:
Avatar=Applied. I guess it looked a lot bigger last century when screens were tiny. :|

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby wam » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:04 pm UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:I'm still here. Working on the reads list you all wanted. Apparently I've been here reading and typing for 3 hours so far?



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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby wam » Tue Dec 18, 2018 10:06 pm UTC

If MOA flips scum Moody needs looking at, that last post sounds like a hesitant buddy.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:39 pm UTC

*Yeargh* That was scary. Its a Christmas miracle that the back button still had my 12kb of post after I logged back in.
2nd: Oh, Bleepity. That was the wrong button. Fortune has smiled upon me this day, as I'd just saved the post away to disk because of that first problem before cleaning up the text and closing the tab.


For the sake of fairness, I punched in some points to Sabrar based on the spoiler. That makes it a B/A/B, and a middle-of-the-pack score of 0.3. Which also pulls everyone else slightly down due the the averaging, and negates most of those vote bonuses which dings Bessie Boom and Wam.

On to Q&A:
Laserguy wanted a rundown for MoA's score, and I didn't actually do that yet:
I have down A/C/D, which was from 10/4/3
Per post, that would probably be:
Spoiler:
MasterOfAll wrote:
plytho wrote:Master of all, you used to play here, right?
Yes, many years ago. But I also replaced into the Newbie New Year game way back at the beginning of 2018, and lurked my way to a scum win by coasting on the 'town slip' of the player I replaced.

Apologies in advance if I become demotivated and end up lurking too much in this game; hopefully if that does happen, there will be someone left on the replacement list.

But, there is no reason to vote for me in this game, as I am a mere Vanilla townie (thanks, secret santa; but at least I smell good; who doesn't like the smell of Vanilla?).

Welcome to the game, SuicideJunkie. Here, I got you something nice . . .

Vote: SuicideJunkie
(3, 1, 0)

Spoiler:
MasterOfAll wrote:@Sabrar: I'll get back to you later on the Vanilla claim.

By the way, I *do* really like the smell of vanilla. It might be my favorite scent overall.

@SuicideJunkie: Don't worry about my vote on you. I just didn't want you to feel left out of the random voting stage. But, as a new player, you should know that it is exceedingly unlikely that you will be lynched here on D1. That doesn't mean your D1 posts won't be scrutinized and possibly used to lynch you on later days, but just don't worry about being lynched this first day and have fun with the game.

@Everyone who is familiar with the mods: How do you think they went about setting up the game? Fixing up our role submissions a bit, deciding on town-scum-indy balance, then just randomly assigning each role and alignment? Or would they be more likely to manually select things?

Not that I think that setup speculation serves much purpose on D1, but I am curious about the process our mods were likely to have used, as that information might be useful mid and late game.

@LaserGuy: I am at least willing to consider your reasoning for a D1 mass claim. So, what are you thinking everyone should claim (Rolename and ability?) and why do that here on D1?
(3, 2, 1)

Spoiler:
MasterOfAll wrote:Regarding claiming abilities, I don't think it is the worst idea, but my opinion is that it would be better to wait for later in the game for that. I don't like the idea of 'trying to break the game' as that seems a lot less fun than playing the game. And while scum know up to 3 of the roles of non-scum, it might be only 2 or even 1 or hilariously 0. And then they still have to try to figure out which of us has *that* role they submitted in order to target us, and I really doubt that the flavor is going to help them with that (much more likely the things we say would).

Although the point about last year's scum!bessie having strongest powers and thus would have stood out for not being NK'd is interesting, I think there is a better chance that the strongest powers ended up with town (since we outnumber them) and then the mass claim just helps scum to identify targets. This, of course, assumes that we could even agree on what abilities scum would be most scared of, which isn't a discussion I would expect us to ever have until endgame because who wants to help scum not only by knowing all the abilities, but also the ramifications of how they interact and thus who is most dangerous. tl;dr: I still think scum benefits more than town from an early mass claim.

But, as a way to give people something to talk about, congrats to LaserGuy on bringing up a mass roleclaim and then even making town/scum reads from it.


Regarding my vanilla claim, of course it's a fake claim. I did not do it for any particular purpose, but rather, I just thought it would be amusing to claim to be vanilla when we clearly all got some sort of ability gifted to us, because, you know, that's how Secret Santa works.

Still, maybe others will be able to find something useful in the responses to my claim, so I wasn't quite ready to retract my claim earlier. But, I wouldn't want it to be a distraction, so . . . yeah, it was a big, fat lie.

In fact, my role is amazing. I am super excited to make use of these interesting and incredibly powerful abilities, and scum should definitely leave me alone at night because I would be very sad if I got knocked out of this game early.
(4, 3, 2)

10 Volume on a scale of 1 to Bessie (13) = A
6/10 On topicness = C
3/10 Insights = D

Subtotal was 3 (/3) + 6 (/10) + 10 (/6) = 3.3
After subtracting the average score, that became 0.5.

It probably would have been better to weight volume negatively, in hindsight, since I was scoring for on-topicness too.

Sabrar wrote:His 'reads' are mostly useless.

Hah! If you believe I can sniff out the scum a quarter the way through D1 in my first game ever, I've got a whole set of bridges in the Atacama to sell.

start of buddying between BoomFrog and SuicideJunkie
It felt like Bessie and Boom were the only ones engaging, and Boom had some trouble with the clutch. I'm neutral on Boomfrog as of page 2.5, but it does seem that he likes me quickly.

There are a fair number of traditions I don't like in the world. Random voting is one more thing I'll have to live with. I still don't have to like it, just not take it as inherently scummy.

...I lost your train of context-free bullet points here...

**********

plytho wrote:Like I kind of exlained to SuicideJunkie, pushing a theory you believe in but that is likely going to be rejected by town at first sight is a townie thing to do. As others said the logic does make more sense than expected, though I still disagree with it. I like the Madge scum read laser got out of this. Laser feels townie.
I think I found the bit you're referring to. This is much more clear.
It is something that either will be rejected out of hand, or quietly accepted (scummy), or they'll see the hidden gem from a clever town perspective and be able to communicate that.


plytho wrote:SuicideJunkie: Is figuring out the game and seems to be focusing on the wrong things for now. Looking for what town appreciates and trying to solve the game with data isn’t going to help town win the game. Unless, as Madge said, that data has been shown to work on previous games.
I'm not surprised. Too many trees to bark up at, and they all look the same to me. I'm not expecting to be too useful except as cannon fodder, but by golly I'm going to try.

bessie wrote:Interesting, you said in this post you read DS9, which was so long ago it was before I was even playing regularly.
I'm not sure where it was linked from, but I'm a Trekkie, so I was all over that as soon as I saw the title.
I caught the Texas Hold'em, skimmed the B99 and was watching Poetry until this game started. None of the titles on the last 3 pages other than that are familiar.
I did dig into the stickied noob guide and how to threads. OotD's scratch & say post is one of those things where everything has that veneer of plausibility and the underlying smell of extremism but it is hard to say which bits it is coming from.
I've also done a lot of thought about how to make a Spy-vs-spy Bond game work mechanically, but the black magic social stuff is opaque to me.

*******

almost everybody wrote:Player Reads! Player Reads!

Okay. (wall of text incoming)
Spoiler:
Boomfrog: Slow start was concerning, but the analysis and usefulness picked up and I swung to townie. Now it feels like I'm being tied in too much, like some sort of meta-cult. I want to like him, but I'm getting the impression that people think he wants me to be a fake scumbuddy to up his death price to two lynches?
I think I'll be penalized no matter what I say on this. Less sketchy than the other names near the bottom of this list.

Bessie:
Waggly tail and friendliness from the get-go. Meta-towniness. All that is going to make subliminal town vibes and has to be canceled out.
Still feels legit with ongoing analysis and good points made, voted Sab even after their big spoiler post but unvoted later, so I'll stick with somewhat town.

Plytho: I do like how Plytho was one of the few to complain directly about some of my default ideas. Clarifying the lurking scum thing was useful. And wasn't lurky. I don't know enough to chip in on the claims thing, but I'm agreeing with a lot of what I see there. Not sure how the Vanilla claim went whoosh. Doing some digging for scum.
I don't think we see eye to eye on everything, but I think we're looking in the same direction. Pretty Townie.

Laserguy: The mass claim thing... hooo boy. Divisive. It is clear that everyone else is reading that and the reactions, but it went over my head. Might be like Plytho was explaining and I'm the naive townie thinking heck no and not seeing the secret benefits while everyone else considers it. Unless Laser and Plytho are in cahoots and feeding me tainted logic that nobody has complained about, this is townie. Regardless, the claim effect insights are good.
My big problem here is that Laserguy doesn't seem to have chased anything other than the claims and a poke at my chart (which is admittedly an easy target).
I think Laserguy is overrated. Somewhat Sketchy.

Sabrar:
Started off in a big hole due to missing the spoiler, and low post count. On review, most people who voted Sabrar did so before the problem post, and nobody jumped on my error as an opportunity. Scum should have tried something if Sabrar was town, unless my mistake was too obvious to everyone else? The incident gathered a lot of unvotes instead. Excessive pushiness to link me to Boomfrog. Holding a grudge? Heart seems to be in the right place overall.
Slightly sketchy, might be personal.

mpolo: A fair number of posts, but on review, not much said. Not much to comment on. Active lurking?
Sketchy, but low momentum. Needs content.

moa: Lurk excuse. Fluffy wambler content.
Quite sketchy. Votable.

madge: Some sniping at me for the chart. That's probably a good thing. Light on digging. Everyone seems to be calling this typical madge, but reading scummy regardless? Likes laser due to groupthink? Likes mpolo. Likes Mark.
Sketchy. Votable.

wam: Bit light on the posting. Seems to be doing some digging. Nothing really jumps out at me.
Neutral.

moody: Not bad. Doesn't stand out too much, but seems to be doing the right thing.
Neutral.

mark: Seems to expect spacebattles competence in my first game; excuse for disliking me. Gotta agree with him that his reads list was very disappointing. I'm not able to follow the daychat => scum!sj thing. The potential of me being a sockpuppet of the mafia means I'm not?
Huge quotes, itty-bitty replies. Too defensive in the last half of the thread to even consider scumhunting, which is understandable.
Most Sketchy. Votable.


Well, since the game definitely isn't a majority mafia, I've gotta bell curve those reads.
Spoiler:
-= In no particular order =-
Town:
Plytho
Bessie

Neutral:
Boomfrog
Laserguy
Sabrar

DNF:
Wam
Moody

Sketchy:
Mpolo

Scummy:
Mark
Madge
MoA

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby MasterOfAll » Tue Dec 18, 2018 11:53 pm UTC

Yay, I'm winning! (note: this is sarcasm)

Sabrar wrote:I'm totally okay with you posting fluff, I had issues with you posting nothing but. And this should have been clear to you, you failed to address why you haven't been scum-hunting at all.
I honestly have no idea what you expected from me.


bessie wrote:
MasterOfAll wrote:Madge - I'm not going to go find it now, but there was 1 specific post she made that gave me strong town vibes
I would be interested in knowing which post you found townie. There are only eight so you should have time to find it before deadline.
It was this one.


I've been busy lately, and am not sure that I will be able to post again before deadline. So, I am going to go ahead and roleclaim now, just in case I die and there is some ability that obscures role info after death, at least town will have it:

I am a 'jinxed voice-thrower'.

Each night I can impose a post restriction on a player for the next day, where every post of theirs must be in italics and I also choose a post in which they must include 1 sentence of my choosing (target, sentence to be included, and when to include sent in at night).

I also have the ability to send separate messages (1 each) to approx. half of the remaining players each night.

I highly suspect that there are hidden mechanics to this role.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Wed Dec 19, 2018 12:18 am UTC

That doesn't sound particularly townie, but nobody ever said the powers needed to be appropriate, just usable.

There are probably some good uses, but the ones I'm thinking of would need to be comboed with others or done late game.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Dec 19, 2018 1:42 am UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:
Scummy:
Mark
Madge
MoA[/spoiler]

Why this order?
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Wed Dec 19, 2018 3:19 am UTC

SuicideJunkie wrote:-= In no particular order =-

That's just a group.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby dimochka » Wed Dec 19, 2018 4:26 am UTC

Sir Jimbob glanced at the sun, and decided that it may soon be time to end this part of the quest.

"Soon, but not quite yet. I'll let them enjoy it just a bit longer." He thought.


Votals:

wam (1): MasterOfAll
MasterOfAll (4): BoomFrog, Sabrar, plytho, LaserGuy
Mark_Cangila (1): wam

Deadline is 9pm UTC, Wednesday 19th December in roughly 16.5 hours.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Dec 19, 2018 5:17 am UTC

I'm not particularly happy with this wagon, it's too easy, and I don't like the assumption that we caught scum so easily and all their buddies are just sitting back and giving up. At minimum someone would have proposed a serious second candidate.

I have a feeling that MoA wouldn't be a strong player regardless of his alignment. Mark and plytho's exchange feels really weird to me. Like, usually in this situation plytho would find Mark scummy and vote for him. I feel like they are buddies and plytho is trying to help Mark dig himself out of a hole.

Unvote MoA
Vote Mark


I'd consider voting plytho instead.
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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby SuicideJunkie » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:03 am UTC

So my thoughts before bed:
1) No lynch is the worst possible outcome as I understand things.
2) The only way to get a no-lynch is for scum to unvote and/or revote such that there are only two people being voted for, and both are tied in votals.
3a) MoA switching to Mark could do that unilaterally at this point in time.
3b) Wam and Boom switching to Wam could also do that with only two involved, albeit a blatantly scummy move to cause no-lynch with a self-vote.
4) Voting for MoA would require one additional player beyond those mentioned in (3) to vote or unvote, but does not ensure anything.
5) I can't imagine MoA, Wam and Boom to all be in cahoots together.

Therefore, my optimal action is to vote for a fourth party to eliminate the possibility of a no-lynch, even if my pick is unlikely to be directly chosen.
I'm OK with Mark, MoA, and Madge, and the first two are already voted for.

As such, I'll:
Vote Madge
And see what has happened when I wake up.

SuicideJunkie wrote:Voting hijinks will upset me. Possibly unduly so. But if someone does that unvote/revote thing so they can vote for someone they don't actually want lynched... That'll be a double barrelled FoS from me.
While I am voting for someone who I don't expect to get lynched today, I'm still voting for someone I read as scummy and wouldn't mind lynching if there are overnight hijinks.

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Re: Secret Santa 2018: A Christmas Knight (D1)

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Dec 19, 2018 6:39 am UTC

Current votals

wam (1): MasterOfAll
MasterOfAll (3): Sabrar, plytho, LaserGuy
Mark_Cangila (2): wam, BoomFrog
Madge (1): Suicide_Junkie

Not voting: bessie, Madge, mpolo, Mark, moody


Not loving have 5 people sitting with no vote so close to deadline. All of you should be planning on placing a vote somewhere.

MoA's possibly-final post doesn't give me any particular Town vibes, but I agree with the sentiment that the lack of action on this wagon makes it kind of dubious. Hmm.

I'm kind of liking this, actually.

Vote: Madge


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