Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 6 - Ultimate Mammal Sash Genius

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:10 am UTC

LaserGuy unvoting is very townie.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Madge » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:48 am UTC

plytho wrote:Who is getting replaced?


Moody is getting replaced.

Mark has been prodded.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:11 pm UTC

Impressions on the five talketeers pre-reread:

jimbob: feeling pretty good except for the moody vote ping.
Zenii: pinged me with the wamslip. unpinged now. wam was still playing when this Zen first mentioned the slip.
BoomFrog: For some reason BoomFrog is feeling very scummy this game. Can't really put my finger on why. His townbro buddying with zen feels fake somehow? His buddying with me doesn't give me a very sincere impression either. Need to take a good look here.
LaserGuy: that unvote is looking very good.
Vicarin: I'm not as convinced of the slip as I was before. worrying about who has the sash because someone might be subconsciously throwing the game still feels odd to me. I'm also a bit concerned about his hesitance to vote me. Need to check his historic stance on indies.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:24 pm UTC

Why is the unvote looking so townie to you in particular?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:47 pm UTC

Because I don't see scum!LaserGuy unvoting here. That was a pretty good position for scum to be in. Why unvote just when the wagon is getting started? There's no counterwagon to jump on, so scum!LaserGuy is making things really hard for himself. Keeping his vote on with an excuse isn't that hard and wouldn't look that scummy.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby somitomi » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:13 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:Well, if you have the Sash, it'd be great if you could claim so ASAP.

Actually, should probably have everyone in their next post definitively claim whether or not they have it.

I don't have the sash either.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Hi somitomi! What are some of your initial thoughts? I'm particularly interested in your read of moody, and your thoughts on Mark's question and retraction.

My first thought was "I did not expect to replace quite so soon" :P
Reading it the first time Mark retracting felt like newbie-town realising the mistake and trying to save it. Mark isn't really that newbie though and underestimating newbies has bitten us in the butt before. Now I'm leaning a little towards Mark faking it, because retracting the question isn't necessarily the best choice as town. Once you realise the question helps scum more than town, trying to undo it will only call attention to that fact whereas otherwise scum might not realise the implications of the answer. I feel like saying "a noob might make that mistake" isn't giving enough credit to Mark.
There's not much to go on from moody and I have a little trouble parsing his last post. The above makes Jimbob's otherwise excellent reasoning moot, since scum!moody could've chalked it off as newbie mistake
LaserGuy wrote:
Playing to secondary win conditions is anti-Town because you are focusing your efforts and/or night actions on something that is not catching scum, which is the ultimate goal of Town. Especially given that it is impossible for an individual townie to get the secondary wincon without getting their primary wincon anyway, then it makes zero sense for anyone on Townside to be expending any effort on trying to go for a sash win.

I agree. Let the sash go wherever it may go, it's not our primary concern.
plytho wrote:No, from earlier questions, we already knew town can't collude with scum. The pyrrhic victory Vic is talking about is town happening to have the sash when town loses and getting a win from that. The fact that they can't is great news for scum as they don't need to worry about a townie getting a sash win, they just need to win the game, while town isn't helped by that at all , they still need to win the game and the sash.

Wouldn't the sash go to town (or maybe an indie) when the last mafia is lynched though? Mafia is just as unable to get a pyrrhic victory as town is and indies winning along with town isn't unheard of.
Zenii wrote:We need you in order to win. It doesn't look like we'll be getting replacements anytime soon. You don't have to read everything to make an informed decision. You can catch up during the night if you need. All we need from you right now is to vote for plytho.

You can find a quick summary of Laserguy's case here. Much if it relates to plytho's post here.

I tentatively agree with LaserGuy's case, but I will definitely take a closer look before voting. I know we don't have much time, but rushing things would just help scum in my opinion.
mpolo wrote:@somitomi: You can demand content all you want during European night, it's not going to come, because I am asleep at those times.

Not really, I'm usually asleep at those times too. Seriously though, I'd like to know where this came from.

That's all for the moment, I'll look at plytho later, but I'll have to do some shopping now.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:47 pm UTC

plytho wrote:@BoomFrog: why did you only call me a jerk and not others wanting indies to claim?

You were the only one I felt intended to not keep the deal. I think the others (besides zanii) thought the deal could be upheld. Zenii gets a bit of a pass because it was a good way to generate discussion.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:50 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
plytho wrote:@BoomFrog: why did you only call me a jerk and not others wanting indies to claim?

You were the only one I felt intended to not keep the deal. I think the others (besides zanii) thought the deal could be upheld. Zenii gets a bit of a pass because it was a good way to generate discussion.
Moody included?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Nov 07, 2018 4:55 pm UTC

plytho wrote:BoomFrog: For some reason BoomFrog is feeling very scummy this game. Can't really put my finger on why. His townbro buddying with zen feels fake somehow? His buddying with me doesn't give me a very sincere impression either. Need to take a good look here.

I don't like this. I'm fine with the assessment that my tone is off. (It's true, I'm more flippant then normal). What bothers me is that Mark, LaserGuy and JimBob have all already expressed this opinion but plytho is stating it like it's a new and unique feeling. I think that means town!plytho had been ignoring/skimming others reads of me or scum!Plytho is trying to build support for my lynch without being the leader of the lynch. I'm leaning toward the latter.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:14 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:
plytho wrote:@BoomFrog: why did you only call me a jerk and not others wanting indies to claim?

You were the only one I felt intended to not keep the deal. I think the others (besides zanii) thought the deal could be upheld. Zenii gets a bit of a pass because it was a good way to generate discussion.
Moody included?

Hmm, I see what you mean, but yeah, Moody included. The same words from you and moody mean different things. I think Moody didn't bother to think all the way to the end. He was fine with indies claiming and giving them the sash today but didn't care what happens to them later. Whereas for you, it was a very real possibility the Indi would be lynched day one for claiming.

To be clear I was just trying to show off my mind reading skills. I don't think it is alignment indicative for you. I considered "jerk" to be a very mild insult, sorry that I offended.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:38 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
plytho wrote:BoomFrog: For some reason BoomFrog is feeling very scummy this game. Can't really put my finger on why. His townbro buddying with zen feels fake somehow? His buddying with me doesn't give me a very sincere impression either. Need to take a good look here.

I don't like this. I'm fine with the assessment that my tone is off. (It's true, I'm more flippant then normal). What bothers me is that Mark, LaserGuy and JimBob have all already expressed this opinion but plytho is stating it like it's a new and unique feeling. I think that means town!plytho had been ignoring/skimming others reads of me or scum!Plytho is trying to build support for my lynch without being the leader of the lynch. I'm leaning toward the latter.
That's just me saying that I saw your scumminess too and I'll take a good look at you in my reread.

BoomFrog wrote:I think Moody didn't bother to think all the way to the end. He was fine with indies claiming and giving them the sash today but didn't care what happens to them later.
The plan was to give them the sash at the end of the game, not today. You're missing a lot of these things. Also, that's a big assumption on moody.

Btw, svs is scum versus scum. Sorry for being rude.

BoomFrog wrote:I considered "jerk" to be a very mild insult, sorry that I offended.
No worries.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:58 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I'm going to do this for now while I recalibrate a bit.

Unvote
Please don't do this **** again. Let's just win.

Spoiler:
Hari Seldon wrote:@Laser
You were right about my scum slip D2. As soon as I made my post, I realized my mistake. You almost had me!!!

I think you have the potential to become a very strong Town player. There are two things I think you should work on:

1. [irrelevant]

2. Give far more weight to your initial instincts. One thing I really like about your play is how willing you are to change your view. You seem to rely on the use of the multiple brains of the game to determine your reads, rather than just your own. I highly agree with this way of playing; however, I do not think you give enough credence to your own instincts, and are too influenced by how others read a situation. This makes it too easy for you to overthink a[nd] lose grasp on what is truly scummy. Over time, [scum have more to work on to spin their tale]. I guarantee that your impression in the first few pages will yield more accuracy than the average of your impressions taken over the course of the game. Do not disregard them so easily [unless it's your read on Vicarin].

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:03 pm UTC

Zenii, what do you think of JimBob?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:05 pm UTC

Zenii wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:I'm going to do this for now while I recalibrate a bit.

Unvote
Please don't do this **** again. Let's just win.

Spoiler:
Hari Seldon wrote:@Laser
You were right about my scum slip D2. As soon as I made my post, I realized my mistake. You almost had me!!!

I think you have the potential to become a very strong Town player. There are two things I think you should work on:

1. [irrelevant]

2. Give far more weight to your initial instincts. One thing I really like about your play is how willing you are to change your view. You seem to rely on the use of the multiple brains of the game to determine your reads, rather than just your own. I highly agree with this way of playing; however, I do not think you give enough credence to your own instincts, and are too influenced by how others read a situation. This makes it too easy for you to overthink a[nd] lose grasp on what is truly scummy. Over time, [scum have more to work on to spin their tale]. I guarantee that your impression in the first few pages will yield more accuracy than the average of your impressions taken over the course of the game. Do not disregard them so easily [unless it's your read on Vicarin].


I had completely forgotten about those comments :P

@Mods: Could we get a vote count please?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:29 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:To Zenii: [declassified]
Zenii wrote:boom too much kn (boom @ 30% cause he seems to have too much knowledge like what he thought plytho was thinking. reading boom & plytho as svs)

How is it a surprise that I can read minds? What is svs?
svs means scum vs scum, i.e two scum players interacting with each other. You knew this.

I picked up on it too late in crossover, but there's a scum tell that, while all are susceptible to it, you are particularly faulty of: you express far too much knowledge of another person's motives. Since town members are alignment blind, it's harder for us to pick up on nuance and motives of others. This whole thing:

Spoiler:
BoomFrog wrote:Plytho is a jerk.
plytho wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:Plytho is a jerk for reasons I will explain after plytho reacts.
I'm not sure what you're talking about. Is this based on your Mark-Indie-Sash-Cangila theory?
BoomFrog wrote:No, it's based on what believe you were thinking about the sash and indy claiming. Why did you say they should both claim, and what do you actually think would happen to the indy?
plytho wrote:My "indies should claim D1" bit was a cheeky response to Zen's question about making a deal with the indie(s). Given what we know about the sash I'm pretty sure we can't hold up our end of the deal. My simplified version was "indies should claim". As for what would happen: indie claims a useful power, we discuss whether we allow them to prove it or just lynch them right away.

As for the sash: I'm convinced that claiming the sash is beneficial for town.
plytho wrote:@BoomFrog: PS: I don't like being called a jerk so please clearly explain why you think I was a jerk so I can either explain how I wasn't or realize I was and correct my behavior/apologize.
BoomFrog wrote:
plytho wrote:My "indies should claim D1" bit was a cheeky response to Zen's question about making a deal with the indie(s). Given what we know about the sash I'm pretty sure we can't hold up our end of the deal. My simplified version was "indies should claim". As for what would happen: indie claims a useful power, we discuss whether we allow them to prove it or just lynch them right away.

If some indy did take your advise then claimed and got lynched, I expect they would feel betrayed. Obviously this is a game about lying I don't like offering false deals as town. (and even if you are scum, I sense this is a false deal you are offering from your "town perspective".) I guess, I feel it went past cheeky to jerk territory because it could have ended the game bitterly for an indy who thought they could trust town, as a whole, to be honest. I think I see now that you meant it to be obvious sarcasm, but it was easily taken as just confirming Zenii's plan while not intending to keep it.
plytho wrote:Yeah I see your point. I definitely didn't mean for it to look like I was supporting the deal. It was meant to look as silly as "scum should claim", but it still could have tricked an indie. I apologize.
Is not something that could have been gained from this single line:
plytho wrote:I agree indies should claim today.

This is especially true because you didn't call anyone else out for also agreeing with it. How would you know that plytho was "being a jerk" rather than he simply being indy or scum. The whole premise of your jerk read is that plytho is town who was trying to trick indies. A premise which town could not have gathered from a single line with no other context. There's no emojis to indicate his supposed "cheekyness". No further elaboration in other posts. Nothing.

The fact that plytho agreed with your interpretation and apologized (lol) indicates that the interaction between you is fake and that the two of you are scum partners.

BoomFrog wrote:Zenii, what do you think of JimBob?
I'm mainly insulted that you think I'd fall for this same stuff again.

*flashbacks to crossover*
Spoiler:
#HBC | Zyth wrote:Vote: Red Ryu

BoomFrog wrote:I'm for lynching Red, but I'd rather lynch Jim first to prevent power use. His latest content is good but not enough to make up for the stagnate reads.

BoomFrog wrote:@Sabrar: Why suggest comparing to me instead of Laser? Comparing to Laser results in a definitive answer on one person. Comparing to me leads to more uncertainty:
Aligned: Zen is suspicious that Red and I are on a team together considering his coaching point from before. Many others have both Red and me as Scum. One of us will have to be lynched to resolve the issue. Result, one constrained lynch and one definitive result.
Unaligned: We lynch Red (probably) and I get confirmed town. Okay, actually that is better and it's better by more then aligned is worse. I feel silly deleting this so I'm just going to leave this here then.

BoomFrog wrote:I'm two pages behind. What's going on?


(For those of you that weren't in it: Red, Boom, and Sabrar were on a team)

This game:
BoomFrog wrote:
plytho wrote:@BoomFrog: why LaserGuy?
I was about to move off of LaserGuy onto JimBob, but I wanted to keep solidarity with Zenii and the scum read of plytho caught my eye. Unless I missed it he's ignored the question from you and I about why he is scum reading you. The vote stays until I get a good answer for that at least.

BoomFrog wrote:To Zenii:
I could vote plytho but I still think JimBob is scum. But LaserGuy is going to think I'm trying to distract from the plytho case.
Yeah, you're right. LaserGuy is going to think I am scummy no matter what. Mark is going to be annoyed by this whole post. :roll:

BoomFrog wrote:I feel like Laser is coming from a townie POV. I'll review plytho later, but my gut says decent chance of scum.

BoomFrog wrote:Zenii, what do you think of JimBob?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:37 pm UTC

Reads:
Spoiler:
Town:
Mark 55%
Laser 40%
Jim 30%
mpolo (PoE)
moody (PoE)

Pinging:
Vic 35%
Somi 60%

Scum:
Boom 90%
plytho 90%

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:41 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:@Zenii: you're going to have to explain those percentages to me some time, I'm not seeing how they make sense.

I'm going to pencil you both in as no Sash.

They represent my confidence on an individual. They have no relationship to each other. And yes, no sash.

I'm off again.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Sabrar » Wed Nov 07, 2018 7:58 pm UTC

Votals

plytho - (2) - Zenii, Vicarin
BoomFrog - (1) - Mark_Cangila
jimbobmacdoodle - (1) - BoomFrog
moody - (1) - jimbobmacdoodle
mpolo - (1) - moody
Vicarin - (1) - plytho

Not voting: LaserGuy, mpolo, somitomi

Let us know if something is incorrect.

Deadline in 2 days and a bit

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:44 pm UTC

You are right, of course, Zen.

Vote: plytho

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:55 pm UTC

Zen is, in fact, not right.

Would you mind starting with a BoomFrog lynch?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:00 pm UTC

Even if you're not buddies, it's still s v s. We're executing you first unless you claim indy now.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:03 pm UTC

Zenii wrote:Even if you're not buddies, it's still s v s.
Why? And why didn't you answer my question?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:19 pm UTC

Zenii: Zen's playing a solid game. I'm not seeing any cracks so far. Can't say if that's townie or scummy, though.

A couple of questions:
How did you get to a 55% scum read on me?
Zenii wrote:plytho related
plytho wrote:How do you know there are two scum?
Interesting. plytho, what do you think of this?

Why did you ask this?
Zenii wrote:-I love his thinking through how we should use the Sash -- and think it brilliant -- BUT I do think he would think through this as any alignment.

Why do you think it's brilliant? Because of the scum-catching mechanism?

Sort of ninja because I'm spending a long time on this: I'm impressed by Zen's reasoning for me and BoomFrog. If it didn't involve me I'd probably buy it.
Zenii wrote:The fact that plytho agreed with your interpretation and apologized (lol) indicates that the interaction between you is fake and that the two of you are scum partners.
Actually that's because I'm sensitive to insults.

Zen, what do you think about a Boom-moody link? This is a big assumption about moody's thought process. It's a bigger leap than assuming I don't intend to make a deal with indies since I didn't mention a deal.

Vicarin: My confidence about the slip has waned a little. I still maintain that "As [a pyrrhic townie sash victory is] not possible, there's very little reason to worry about who has it" applies a lot more to scum than to town. But yeah, maybe vic was worried about subconscious defectors.
Vicarin wrote:
Zenii wrote:It's also interesting to me that you were aware of Night chat only. I had overlooked it.


Sure you did :roll:

This is where you implied Zen was lying. Do you (still) think he was lying?

Vicarin wrote:Because there's still some discussion about the Sash claim and it being a pseudo-watcher, I'm saying we should go further. Don't target the Sash wearer, at all (unless you're a vig, then go nuts). If someone has the Sash, any ability that doesn't kill is guaranteed to be wasted, and having it move around is bad. If it DOES move, then scum presumably has it if everyone's been cooperating, and so that gives us something to go on if someone ends up getting blocked in the future. Scum having it doesn't make them like a Godfather, it just means that we know it's a waste of time trying to cop them in particular.

This is confusing me. How is this going further than the original plan? I thought this was the plan? Who was supposed to target the sash wearer in the original plan?

Why no vote for me earlier? Also this is weird:
Vicarin wrote:Fine, looks like everyone else thinks Mark's absurd behaviour has a perfectly innocent explanation anyway...

Sounds like Vicarin doesn't really want to vote for me.

That's what BoomFrog was pre-emptively accusing me of: not owning your vote.

Aww, man, looking for Vicarin's stance on indies I found a quote of him saying "indies hurt town but they usually hurt mafia more" unfortunately that was a translation from boomfrog's oracle in wot3 and not his own opinion.
I found very little reference to indies in Vicarins latest games. He did want to lynch EGW when he claimed indie in stellaris. Still, not really an indicator for wanting to lynch an indie before a decent scum read.

still scummy.

LaserGuy: Weirdly stubborn about his initial Vicarin read. But that unvote is strong. I also really like his mpolo indie-read. It's more thought out than just 'talks a lot about indies'.

jimbobmacdoodle: re-re-considering that ping. I think I didn't really take into account this bit of the moody read:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Scum!moody won't want to label him as town if he can avoid it, because that would prevent him pushing a mislynch on one of the more inexperienced (and therefore likely lynchable) players.

The lyncheability argument does make the reasoning stronger.
Would like to see a trademark jimbob reads list but I'm thinking likely town for now.

BoomFrog: I get the impression BoomFrog was initially trying to buddy me, trying to convince me to move to jimbob. I feel like jimbob's moody vote and BoomFrog's jimbob vote were similarly weak. So BoomFrog trying to convince me to join him feels forced. The sudden switch based on my immunity interpretation also felt surprisingly quick.
This private conversation feels incredibly forced. The Zen-BoomFrog interactions don't seem like interactions between two equal partners. Zen comes across as a strong player, while BoomFrog is just trying to tag along.
@BoomFrog: why do you care what LaserGuy thinks about your vote? That's scumthink.


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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:27 pm UTC

Well, that took a lot of effort. Taking a break now. I'll order everyone in a list tomorrow.

Pretty sure BoomFrog is the way to go and my wagon is town-driven.

Also, pretty frustrating when I @all and get no response (well, jimbob said he'd respond later and LaserGuy thinks he already responded?)
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:35 pm UTC

Partial reads list, focusing on the people I don't have strong town reads on.

BoomFrog:
Spoiler:
Upset by Vicarin appreciating Zen play, but not his gambits. Knowing where sash is early is good. Won't promise an indie a sash. Will only keep them alive if trusting their claim. "Plytho is a jerk. LaserGuy is scum. Mark is probably indy. JimBob is scum. Vic is town." Thinks Mark not indie, just town with sash. Says Zenii saying nonsensical things hides true intentions. Prods plytho for discussion about indie and sash claiming. Suggests to Mark that he should take him as seriously as Zenii. plytho suggestions jerky for potentially making false promises. I'm scum for attacking moody for being moody. LaserGuy is scum for not doing anything townie and Vicarin read is exaggerated. Argues against sash claiming, and then changes his mind. Defends plytho by attacking LaserGuy argument against him. Says town is glad no pyrrhic victory for holding sash. LaserGuy coming from townie PoV and has plytho sliding towards scum. Votes me. Thinks scum might not be unified and that attempting to get sash currently pointless. Thinks others intended to keep the give-sash-to-indie deal, but not plytho. Admits tone is off. Bothered that plytho is presenting argument as new. Asks Zenii about me.
I've gone over Boom's posts, and Zenii's case against him, and along with the previously mentioned issues with his tone, I'm now adding "knowing plytho to be town" to his list of issues. This is a slight rehash of Zenii's argument, I acknowledge. In his original explanation of why plytho is a jerk, BoomFrog explicitly adds the "even if you are scum" clause to show he doesn't know that plytho is definitely town, which is fine. I've done it before, both as town and scum. However, the whole of this post is written on the basis that everybody mentioned is town, despite having scum reads on some: "You were the only one I felt intended to not keep the deal" - plytho is implicitly town, as noted by Zenii. If BoomFrog seriously considered him sucmmy, then plytho isn't being a jerk because scum lie all the time. "I think the others ... thought the deal could be upheld" implies that the others are all town. "Zenii gets a bit of a pass ...": Zenii doesn't need a pass necessarily, unless he's town. No caveats, no indication that anybody mentioned might potentially be scum etc.

Unvote: moody
Vote: BoomFrog

mpolo:
Spoiler:
Asks if we're willing to give up a double win re. sash. Points out we want sash in hands of someone we can trust. Confused by Zenii's certainty re. LaserGuy scum. Pro-town neutrals not guaranteed but hinted at by mod. Asks wam about flavour. Doesn't have sash. Weird statement addressed at somitomi. Moody argument weak reasoning. Comments on moody/Mark link.
This feels fairly normal play for town!mpolo (maybe scum!mpolo too though). I don't have any issues with it so far, apart from his comments re. Moody and Mark look a bit weird.
mpolo wrote:I would agree that it is fairly weak as reasoning on moody's part. On the other hand, I wouldn't assign an overwhelmingly scummy value to Mark's question/retraction for the reason moody gave. Which gives at least some level of scumminess for both Mark and moody. Not sure if they are linked by this, though.
How does Mark end up scummy in this equation?

plytho:
Spoiler:
Agrees indies should claim today. Asks moody about his weird Mark post. I'm making sense. Prods moody about his answer. Prods Mark about BoomFrog gambits/lying. Claiming the sash is beneficial for town. Asks BF for more explanation of read. Indies should claim was not intended to be serious. Not a lot to like about BF. Votes Vicarin for "slip". Doesn't think Mark is a mentor. Discussion with Vicarin about win conditions. Reads list. Doesn't think BF reasoning good. Likes my reasoning, but maybe too harsh on moody. Suggest LG should re-evaluate Vic read. Mark Q&R does not look to come from scum. moody null read on Mark odd. mpolo odd for mentioning pro-town indies. Argues that scum is relieved about no pyrrhic victory, but not town and Vicarin's comments relating to this are slip. Likes Zenii hitting ground running. Me forgetting night chat alignment indicative, but not for Zenii. Various discussions with Vicarin about sash and other things. Talks with LaserGuy about Vicarin. Admits bad reads. Provides updated thoughts on low-content players. My early vote is a scum ping. Gives brief updates on other players. Likes LG's unvote. Not as convinced about Vicarin slip. Prods BF re. jerk comments/moody.
Re. my early vote on moody: two reasons - 1) I'm busy and not sure how often I'll get to check in, so having a vote down helps steer me and makes it clear where I stand. 2) Zenii asked us not to hang around and wait until late D1, so I thought I wouldn't.

I'm not convinced plytho is scum, but I'm not really seeing anything as obviously townie from him either. His best thing going for him is that he picked up on similar issues with Moody's comment re. Mark as I did. He's talked a lot, but a lot of his comments are just back-and-forth arguments over minor points that don't really seem alignment indicative to me. I'd rather lynch BoomFrog though.

Skipping LaserGuy, Vicarin, Zenii and Mark_Cangila, as I'm fairly confident they are town. Will review another Day.
Skipping moody because there's no new info since I last read him. I still have a gut scum lean on him, but I'm more confident that BoomFrog is scum.
Also not done wam/somitomi, as I don't think there's really enough there to analyse yet.

Rough town to scum ordering:
Town
Zenii
Mark_Cangila
Vicarin
LaserGuy
mpolo
wam
plytho
moody
BoomFrog
Scum

I don't think plytho and BoomFrog are buddies, but I suppose not co-aligned scum is possible.

Ninja'ed by plytho. Yup. Not buddies, I think.

Re. the @all comment reasoning, I've spent too long on this and my brain is now shot to give a proper think, but my gut still says it's a false ping. I think it's possible you genuinely believed it to be. However, I think it's entirely possible for people to react differently to different things. For example, I am slightly disappointed that I can't win by surviving with the sash until endgame (not that I was planning to, but it's nice to have a fallback option). Meanwhile, Vicarin is happy that there are no pyrrhic victories, because he's thinking about it in terms of the town-as-a-whole winning, rather than just himself winning.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:48 pm UTC

plytho wrote:
Zenii wrote:Even if you're not buddies, it's still s v s.
Why? And why didn't you answer my question?

Your scum tells are independent of your relationship. You're scum because:

-your ceding to boom's point
-your regurgitation over analysis read list
-your convoluted vic slip
-a lot of the other points you've been making are also convoluted. There's too many to get into right now. It's nothing like your play in Texas.
-your read list was essentially a sheep of mine. I think you (and Boom) were playing to the winds and hoping to ride my pushing in the wrong direction.

I think your current shift is an attempt to salvage of your misread of where the wagon was going to go earlier.

I'll switch to Boom if you claim. I'm not changing otherwise.

@jim, literally nothing from Boom/plytho over the last couple of pages should be indicative of not being buddies. They are at a point where bussing is necessary.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:05 pm UTC

Well there's the Zenii paranoia that I expected in Texas'Hold'em. Zenii is 99% town.

The svs question was sincere. I was already set to expect odd shorthand in your notes because you said "kn" instead of "know" earlier.

The "plytho is a jerk" read really did just come from my mental model of plytho and that one line. And as I said, it's not alignment indicative, scum!plytho could have been equally as flippant. However, this does not make sense.
Zenii wrote:Even if you're not buddies, it's still s v s. We're executing you first unless you claim indy now.

I get that our interaction could be scummates putting on a little play to avoid the "did interact with buddies D1" problem some scum have. But if we are not buddies then I don't see how me being scum gives me the insight needed to make this read. And I don't see how that has any bearing on plytho's alignment if we aren't buddies.

That said, plytho is my 2nd pick for scum, so I'm fine lynching him. If he's scum I expect to be lynched D2 and that a fine trade. Just lynch him first.

Vote plytho

That's L-2. Considering the tie breaker, don't be shy about putting him at L-1.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:19 pm UTC

After the dust settles on D2 take a look back at that last post by JimBob. That is a scumbuddy of plytho post. Vaguely reading plytho as kinda scummy, but still puts him above moody and a flimsy reason to find me scummy just because I'm the 2nd best candidate even though he disagrees with Zenii's whole premise that we are scummates.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I've gone over Boom's posts, and Zenii's case against him, and along with the previously mentioned issues with his tone, I'm now adding "knowing plytho to be town" to his list of issues. This is a slight rehash of Zenii's argument
So he finds me scummy due to "tone issues" (which he doesn't elaborate on at all.) Zenii's case (which he actually disagrees with because he thinks plytho and I are not mates). And "knowing plytho to be town":
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:However, the whole of this post is written on the basis that everybody mentioned is town, despite having scum reads on some
I think everyone is responding as if they are town (obviously). No one's response was alignment indicative. So I am only measuring jerkiness from the perspective of "is this a jerky thing to say as town."

There's far more reason to feel plytho is scum, but JimBob manages to not see any of that, and find me scummy basically on unspecified tone issues.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Madge » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:46 pm UTC

Votals

plytho - (4) - Zenii, Vicarin, LaserGuy, BoomFrog
BoomFrog - (2) - Mark_Cangila, jimbobmacdoodle
mpolo - (1) - moody
Vicarin - (1) - plytho

Not voting: mpolo, somitomi

Let us know if something is incorrect.

Deadline in 2 days and a bit


A replacement for moody will be on deck in a few hours.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:50 pm UTC

Madge wrote:Let us know if something is incorrect.
I'm voting for Boomfrog.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Mark_Cangila » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:51 pm UTC

Sorry I was off for so long. I had a bunch of work yesterday + midterms, and today I had Model UN. I don't think Boom and Plytho are scum buddies. Boom would have been far more careful in treating plytho as conf town in the jerk post that zenii mentioned. I also think that Boom is in the mafia in my 7-2-1 setup. If he was indie he wouldn't treat everyone as conf town, but I could totally see him making that mistake as part of the mafia. I really think we should lynch Boom first, as mafia is generally worse than indies.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Mark_Cangila » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:53 pm UTC

Also, now, to lynch Boom we would have to put him in L -1 territory, which isn't great due to tie rules.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Mark_Cangila » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:54 pm UTC

Note: In such a setup the 2 is mafia and the 1 is indie.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:36 pm UTC

Mark_Cangila wrote:I also think that Boom is in the mafia in my 7-2-1 setup.

Do you actually have a mafia team or indy you are betting on, or is this just a long winded way to say "boom is mafia"?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Madge » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:36 am UTC

Bessie is replacing moody effective immediately

Votals

plytho - (4) - Zenii, Vicarin, LaserGuy, BoomFrog
BoomFrog - (3) - Mark_Cangila, jimbobmacdoodle, plytho
mpolo - (1) - moody

Not voting: mpolo, somitomi

Let us know if something is incorrect.

Deadline in 2 days
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:53 am UTC

Hi bessie!

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Thu Nov 08, 2018 12:55 am UTC

Stuff from overnight:

@plytho: what do you think of LaserGuy's revote on you now?

The eye rolling at Zen saying he'd missed night chat wasn't accusing him of lying outright, it's more that I've seen people say that sort of thing plenty of times as both scum and town now, and it's always been useless to mention, so I wasn't very impressed by him doing so.

With regards to the sash plan, I saw comment's like wam's saying that it was good that the Sash could act like a public watcher on the Sash wearer. I wanted to be clear that the better plan is to go further; make sure noone targets the Sash wearer, on pain of lynching. Then, we end up with less blocked abilities, and less confusion.

With regards to indies, it really depends on the indie. I really doubt that we'd have a significantly pro-town indie in a 7-2-1 setup, because that would be rather tough for the Mafia to win with, so at best the indie is probably survivor-ish, and at worst is something like an SK which I'll have no qualms about going for D1.

@somitomi: rushing things a bit gives people time to actually do claims and have people have some time to respond, but we're looking on schedule right now I guess. Can you look at BoomFrog at least as well, seeing as he seems to be the main other wagon?

@Zen: Nice edits in that quote :P. Also, that's not really how percentage confidences work, but ok...

The angle you're using for BoomFrog going at plytho is actually pretty interesting. Do you think daychat would have made any of the interaction different? Would BoomFrog have been wanting plytho to disagree with the interpretation?

@BoomFrog: you really think that there's a ~1% chance that Zen is faking that paranoia?

@Mark: You got the Sash or not?

@bessie: Hey bessie! Got the Sash? I know you love claiming stuff on D1 and all :P

No Sash List:

Vicarin
Jimbob
mpolo
LaserGuy
BoomFrog
Zen
somitomi

Unknown

Mark
bessie
plytho (I think? Couldn't find a definitive statement...)

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:00 am UTC

Oh yeah, also strongly agree with BoomFrog with regards to the tiebreaker. Anyone trying to quickhammer D1 should be first on the chopping block D2, and if people are squeamish about putting someone at L-1 when there's 2 frontrunners, it gives a lot of power to people jumping onto the main candidates right at the end of the day.

Mark_Cangila wrote:Also, now, to lynch Boom we would have to put him in L -1 territory, which isn't great due to tie rules.


Why isn't it great due to the tie rules?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby bessie » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:01 am UTC

Confirm.

I will have a post in a few hours when I get back to my hotel. I will be phone reading/posting for the next day so please point out anything in particular you would like me to respond to. I will be on a plane vomiting tomorrow, and I'm supposed to be at work Friday at deadline so you won't be seeing my normal D1 content level.

Unvote

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Thu Nov 08, 2018 1:18 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:@BoomFrog: you really think that there's a ~1% chance that Zen is faking that paranoia?

Ehh, I was using the numbers sloppily to communicate the way most people understand the meaning of confidence. I guess in real confidence terms I guess maybe more like 95%. I would be extremely impressed if he faked that.

bessie wrote:please point out anything in particular you would like me to respond to.
Which of the two main theories do you find most likely. I correctly read plytho's intent when calling him a jerk, or he and I are scum buddies and put on a little fake back and forth?

Also, what do you think of my read of JimBob's read of moody's read of Mark's question and retraction? :D
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