Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 6 - Ultimate Mammal Sash Genius

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:23 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:I don't recall you pointing it out.
Huh, that's odd, it's in my reads list you read in detail, following your name.
I also don't feel it is relevant since that is not the post I'm talking about, and never has been.
Huh, that's odd. I do think it's relevant. I wouldn't ask the question otherwise. So you're deciding Vicarin's post that actually refers to his earlier post should be evaluated without that context? Why?

LaserGuy wrote:
Do you mind walking me through where I got it wrong because I'm not seeing it. Just saying I'm wrong isn't really helpful.


It's literally the line just before that in the post you're quoting.

LaserGuy wrote:The Vicarin “slip” feels quite manufactured to me. I think plytho has fallen into the same trap as Vic/wam did in WoT3, of assuming that Town should be focused on their secondary wincon rather than realizing that the optimal play for Town is to win as Town, and let the sash business sort itself on its own. Vic is correct here, and not only is this not a slip, but it’s a pro-Town suggestion from Vicarin.


Playing to secondary win conditions is anti-Town because you are focusing your efforts and/or night actions on something that is not catching scum, which is the ultimate goal of Town. Especially given that it is impossible for an individual townie to get the secondary wincon without getting their primary wincon anyway, then it makes zero sense for anyone on Townside to be expending any effort on trying to go for a sash win.

That's walking me through where I'm wrong. That's an assumption you're making about what I'm saying. Show me where I'm saying town should be focused on the secondary wincon and show me where Vicarin is making that pro-town suggestion.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 8:40 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:
plytho wrote:Vicarin:
Vicarin wrote:Also, I asked that because I was wondering if it was possible for me (or anyone else) to get a pyrrhic victory of having the Sash as scum gets a majority. As it's not possible, there's very little reason to worry about who has it beyond making sure that they're not going to accidentally block a bunch of abilities, and making sure scum doesn't get it and try to block stuff on them.
This doesn't make sense for town but it makes a lot of sense for scum. Town does need to worry about who has the sash because they need it for the double win. This is true with or without the pyrrhic victory in place. Scum, on the other hand, is relieved that there's no pyrrhic victory possible because that means (assuming 2 scum/individual win) that if they win, they either get a perfect victory and one of them gets the double or the one that survives automatically gets the double win. So town does need to worry and scum doesn't. That's the slip.

As a point of strategy, you are wrong. Town is glad there is no pyrrhic victory because if there was the sash holder can side with scum and we would be basically at +1 scum for the calculation of LYLO if a townie had the sash. It is interesting that Vic didn't bring this up as his reason to ask the question. But Vic's reasoning is also valid and from a townie perspective.
No, from earlier questions, we already knew town can't collude with scum. The pyrrhic victory Vic is talking about is town happening to have the sash when town loses and getting a win from that. The fact that they can't is great news for scum as they don't need to worry about a townie getting a sash win, they just need to win the game, while town isn't helped by that at all , they still need to win the game and the sash.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:26 pm UTC

BoomFrog wrote:You found plytho very scummy before the Vic slip was explained and before his reads list so I'm ignoring those for now which leaves only your first line. Is that really not what plytho does in town games early D1? What do you expect town plytho to be doing differently?


Scumhunting? Game solving? Providing some level of reads or analysis? You've played with him before. Feel free to pick any of his Town games and see if you can spot the differences. Stellaris and Meta Mafia are good references. Contrast Chaos mafia for a scum game.

Your defense of plytho is noted.

plytho wrote:Huh, that's odd, it's in my reads list you read in detail, following your name.


Ah, I remember now. I had noted you had made this comment but figured that you'd be able to get the answer you needed from my Vicarin read. I think you are also using "pregame" and "confirmation phase" to mean different things, whereas I generally consider "pregame" to be everything before official game start.

Huh, that's odd. I do think it's relevant. I wouldn't ask the question otherwise. So you're deciding Vicarin's post that actually refers to his earlier post should be evaluated without that context? Why?


Because the second post is AI and the first is not. I'm pretty sure I'd be Townreading Vicarin regardless of this, though, actually.

plytho wrote:That's walking me through where I'm wrong. That's an assumption you're making about what I'm saying. Show me where I'm saying town should be focused on the secondary wincon and show me where Vicarin is making that pro-town suggestion.


This is the quote that you claim is a slip:
Vicarin wrote:Also, I asked that because I was wondering if it was possible for me (or anyone else) to get a pyrrhic victory of having the Sash as scum gets a majority. As it's not possible, there's very little reason to worry about who has it beyond making sure that they're not going to accidentally block a bunch of abilities, and making sure scum doesn't get it and try to block stuff on them.


Here's your explanation of why this is a slip.
plytho wrote:This doesn't make sense for town but it makes a lot of sense for scum. Town does need to worry about who has the sash because they need it for the double win. This is true with or without the pyrrhic victory in place. Scum, on the other hand, is relieved that there's no pyrrhic victory possible because that means (assuming 2 scum/individual win) that if they win, they either get a perfect victory and one of them gets the double or the one that survives automatically gets the double win. So town does need to worry and scum doesn't. That's the slip.


Vicarin states in the first quote that Town should not worry about who has the sash. This is the line you have highlighted as a slip. This is the line that you voted for Vicarin on the basis of. The reason that you believe this is a slip is because you believe that Town ought to be worried about who has the sash in order to achieve a double win. This is highlighted in your post. The onus is on you to demonstrate how this is a scumslip. How exactly do you want me to interpret this? How is it a scumslip to say "I don't care about the double win, I just want to win with Town"? If everyone were to adopt this position, do you think it would be more or less likely that Town would achieve our primary wincon? This is very clearly a pro-Town position. Your entire argument here is based on the fact that people ought to be caring about someone getting a sash win. But there is no requirement for us to do so, and, indeed it actually works against our collective interests to do so (much like how scum in WoT3 was overly focused on achieving their secondary wincons whereas Town mostly just ignored them). The fact that you can't see this is, IMHO, scummy.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 9:41 pm UTC

Vic is saying we don't need to worry about who has the sash specifically because a pyrrhic victory isn't possible. Explain to me why we do need to worry if a pyrrhic victory is possible.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:09 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote: Your entire argument here is based on the fact that people ought to be caring about someone getting a sash win.
That's not what my argument is based on at all. I do think people ought to care though:
But there is no requirement for us to do so.
I disagree.
[*] Possessing the Sash at the end of the game is an additional win equivalent to the standard goal, not just a secondary win-con

I interpret my wincon as: win with town and get the sash. So I will do everything I can for a town win and do anything I can to get the sash (as long as that doesn't interfere with the town win.) There's going to be one winner and some half winners.


Does acting against the sash wincon fall under rule 9 of the standard rules? (the one about acting against the wincon)
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:20 pm UTC

This is a lot of questions to answer on phone. Oh well.

@BoomFrog: that's correct.

@plytho: think these are in order...

- That was with regards to multiple defections. If only one person defects, they'll probably get the Sash, if many do, it's a toss up.
- The logic you're presenting strongly implies that you're worrying about the Sash wincon right now. This is incredibly bad for town if everyone does it, and is in fact counterproductive for your wincon. Are you modifying your town play in order to increase your Sash wincon chances already?
- Not much of an idea, but I don't think it's particularly relevant right now. If we end up in a truly commanding position like 2 scum dead and a confirmed cop result on a third, I'll consider silly Sash shenanigans, possibly.
- Well, he was one of two people up for a lynch, and fakeclaiming cop made scum afraid enough that he got NKed that night, so it did seem pretty effective. Why?
- Indies are precisely as scummy as in they're not Town. Unless someone feels like claiming a town-adjacent Indie right now?
- Yep, because I get frustrated. I also didnt want a repeat of that marathon TvsT argument with Sabrar.
- Yeah, when was this?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:22 pm UTC

Huh, ok.

Can you describe what sorts of actions you're going to take to try to get a Sash win (or could theoretically take), that don't interfere with contributing to a Town victory?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:26 pm UTC

No.

Can you answer this?
plytho wrote:Vic is saying we don't need to worry about who has the sash specifically because a pyrrhic victory isn't possible. Explain to me why we do need to worry if a pyrrhic victory is possible.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:27 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Huh, that's odd. I do think it's relevant. I wouldn't ask the question otherwise. So you're deciding Vicarin's post that actually refers to his earlier post should be evaluated without that context? Why?


Because the second post is AI and the first is not. I'm pretty sure I'd be Townreading Vicarin regardless of this, though, actually.
That's not an answer to my question. I'm asking you why you think the context isn't relevant and your answer is that the context isn't relevant. Please answer my question and why you're dodging it.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:31 pm UTC

plytho wrote:I interpret my wincon as: win with town and get the sash. So I will do everything I can for a town win and do anything I can to get the sash (as long as that doesn't interfere with the town win.) There's going to be one winner and some half winners.


Town wincon does not mention the sash. It is "You win if all threats to the town are eliminated and at least one town-aligned player is alive." If that's not the wincon you are playing for, then you're anti-Town and I'm happy with my vote.

Please answer my question and why you're dodging it.


I did not consider the first post as part of my read on Vicarin, so pretending that I did would be disingenuous. I read the second one, thought, "Oh wow, Vicarin is obvtown", and made a note of it.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Madge » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:34 pm UTC

plytho wrote:Does acting against the sash wincon fall under rule 9 of the standard rules? (the one about acting against the wincon)


Yes.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:35 pm UTC

@plytho: Can you describe the sort of action anyone could take for that?

I was worried about someone throwing the game on a subconscious level, or at least not really trying their hardest, if they felt that they had the Sash wincon locked in at least. Thankfully, that's not an issue. I'd also give slightly more credence to moving the Sash before game end, because I'd prefer it if Scum didn't manage to get a pyrrhic victory if we're winning. Again, now not an issue.

Ninja'd: ooooooooook what. That's going to make the endgame stupidly messy.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:37 pm UTC

Which of those wincons is a higher priority?

How much is sacrificing one wincon's chances to boost the other's likelihood allowed?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:38 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:- Indies are precisely as scummy as in they're not Town. Unless someone feels like claiming a town-adjacent Indie right now?
That's an odd statement.
Vicarin wrote:- Well, he was one of two people up for a lynch, and fakeclaiming cop made scum afraid enough that he got NKed that night, so it did seem pretty effective. Why?
Because you seemed to be accusing him of lying for no good reason and didn't follow up.
Vicarin wrote:- Yeah, when was this?
In my reads post, when I pointed out your slip.

plytho wrote:
Vicarin wrote:Your logic for the wincons is terrible. Putting any emphasis on fulfilling your personal Sash wincon as town is a horrible idea, because you'll end up with a prisoner's dilemma situation where people are defecting. Except not really, because the everyone defects situation makes scum much, much more likely to win, without helping any particular person hold onto the Sash.
Why do we need to help any particular person to hold onto the sash? Also what particular logic are you talking about? I haven't put any emphasis on fulfilling my personal sash wincon.
Vicarin wrote:- The logic you're presenting strongly implies that you're worrying about the Sash wincon right now. This is incredibly bad for town if everyone does it, and is in fact counterproductive for your wincon. Are you modifying your town play in order to increase your Sash wincon chances already?
That's not an answer to my questions. I'm not modifying my play in order to increase my sash wincon chances. (Although I do somewhat enjoy the fact that I'm being scumread in that regard, that was in no way deliberate).

Vicarin wrote:- That was with regards to multiple defections. If only one person defects, they'll probably get the Sash, if many do, it's a toss up.
I don't know what this is about.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:45 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:For the rule of "you can't play against your win condition", the possession of the Sash being equivalent of a standard win condition doesn't override this, right? (don't want someone throwing the game because they're currently in possession of it)

Sabrar wrote:No override. Just because you want the Sash doesn't mean you can ignore everything else.

plytho wrote:Does acting against the sash wincon fall under rule 9 of the standard rules? (the one about acting against the wincon)

Madge wrote:Yes.


I have no idea how this is supposed to work.

@Madge: Can you give an example of what playing against the sash wincon would look like?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Madge » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:47 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:Which of those wincons is a higher priority?


Per the OP, they are considered equal wins.

Vicarin wrote:How much is sacrificing one wincon's chances to boost the other's likelihood allowed?


It depends.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:50 pm UTC

If you think it's odd to want not-Town, i.e. Scum, then good for you.

I don't remember saying that Zen was lying. What are you referring to?

Well, I've answered them now I guess?

If there's optimal Town play, and trying to get the Sash changes that at all, then going for the Sash is getting in the way of Town.

That's in reference to the 'any particular person' question.

Ninja'd: aaaargghhhhh that's so silly. Well, at least we HAVE to win as Town to have any chance at the Sash win, so we still have to cooperate normally. Mostly...

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Madge » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:54 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:@Madge: Can you give an example of what playing against the sash wincon would look like?


There are many examples but they are all highly dependent on circumstances (but you will not be considered to break the rules if you are acting on incorrect information).

Withholding action on what you believe is likely the last night of the game could be one example.


But guys, don't go paranoid about this. The rule in question was added years ago, mostly to stop people preemptively siding with cults / betraying cults. As long as you're acting in good faith to both your win conditions you'll be fine.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:55 pm UTC

Is claiming to have the Sash considered to be playing against the Sash wincon?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:56 pm UTC

Bedtime here, will answer other stuff tomorrow.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Madge » Tue Nov 06, 2018 10:57 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:Is claiming to have the Sash considered to be playing against the Sash wincon?


It depends.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:15 pm UTC

To Zenii: (This is a private conversation, others should please not read it, that would be rude)
Spoiler:
Zenii wrote:boom too much kn (boom @ 30% cause he seems to have too much knowledge like what he thought plytho was thinking. reading boom & plytho as svs)

How is it a surprise that I can read minds? What is svs?

Also, like, can we invite Vic to the town block? He's pretty ObvTown. I don't understand what you were going after him for. Also, also, I may not fully understand what being a town block entails. I thought we were supposed to vote together? I could vote plytho but I still think JimBob is scum. But LaserGuy is going to think I'm trying to distract from the plytho case.

Yeah, you're right. LaserGuy is going to think I am scummy no matter what. Mark is going to be annoyed by this whole post. :roll:


Vote JimBob

I feel like Laser is coming from a townie POV. I'll review plytho later, but my gut says decent chance of scum.

Town:
Bessie
BoomFrog
Vic
Mark
LaserGuy
Zenii

moody
mpolo
wam/somitomi

plytho
JimBob
Scum
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:18 pm UTC

I've not been home long enough to read and digest LaserGuy and Vicarin versus pkytho, and only skimmed content from various others. Fortunately, tomorrow evening I should have plenty of time to catch up.

If there are any urgent issues that need addressing, please let me know, and I will try to comment on them on my commute into work.

I vaguely recall somebody asking if, asides from moody, I have any scum reads. I'm not confident about it, pending a reread, but I'm not too happy with BoomFrog's content. It doesn't feel like himself, though OMGUS may be speaking (ninjaed :roll: ). I need to re-evaluate most of my reads, now that there's more than a few hours content. Currently still happy with Mark and Vicarin as town, probably also Zenii and maybe LaserGuy. Others I don't have a good feel for.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:32 pm UTC

As to the whole wincon thing. It seems straightforward to me. Town must win to get be able to get the bonus win. And you must live to get the bonus win. So for now we should play normally, but try harder to survive then one normally would. Assuming 2 scum and any indy could win with town, there is about a 6% chance of getting the sash win. (1/2 * 1/8 = 1/16 = 6.25%) So anything that increases your sash win chance is pretty unlikely to actually get you a win at this point. About the only time it might be worth going for the sash is if we are in MYLO.

Also, based on the "it depends" answer for if scum share the sash win, I'm guessing scum are not 100% unified. So, scum, if your win condition does let you win with your partner then that means they are probably the one who has the selfish scum win-con. So try to get them lynched before endgame... ;)
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Tue Nov 06, 2018 11:33 pm UTC

So, I think we can still do this...

Everyone who hasn't already claimed to not have the Sash, either claims to not have it, or claims to have it, or doesn't do anything.

If we don't end up with a unique person claiming to have it, and can't work it out by elimination, whoever had the Sash gets lynched when we do work it out.

If we do, we agree to not target that person tonight, on threat of lynching whoever steals the Sash from them.

I think this benefits everyone, because everyone without the Sash gets to know where it is and not waste their powers N1 trying to steal something that almost certainly will just be stolen again by the end of the game. The person with the Sash gets to not die immediately, which is known to make a Sash victory harder, thus allowing them to claim having it with a clear conscience :P.

Hopefully this stops the Sash from messing up too much stuff while we actually try to get some useful results the first few nights.

@BoomFrog: ok, I'll bite. Is bessie at the top of your ordered list just to see who'd be the first to notice?

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby BoomFrog » Wed Nov 07, 2018 12:09 am UTC

Vicarin wrote:@BoomFrog: ok, I'll bite. Is bessie at the top of your ordered list just to see who'd be the first to notice?

Yes, and because it was funny. And I want Bessie to feel included in the game. Hi Bessie!
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Wed Nov 07, 2018 5:58 am UTC

Vic, could you actually put your vote on a scum read.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Zenii » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:29 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:-

mpolo wrote:-

somitomi wrote:-

We need you in order to win. It doesn't look like we'll be getting replacements anytime soon. You don't have to read everything to make an informed decision. You can catch up during the night if you need. All we need from you right now is to vote for plytho.

You can find a quick summary of Laserguy's case here. Much if it relates to plytho's post here.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:41 am UTC

Also still need definitive Sash or no Sash claims from everyone.

Fine, looks like everyone else thinks Mark's absurd behaviour has a perfectly innocent explanation anyway...

Vote plytho

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby Vicarin » Wed Nov 07, 2018 6:50 am UTC

Mark_Cangila wrote:A


Speaking of which, he hasn't posted in quite a while either.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:43 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Please answer my question and why you're dodging it.


I did not consider the first post as part of my read on Vicarin, so pretending that I did would be disingenuous. I read the second one, thought, "Oh wow, Vicarin is obvtown", and made a note of it.

I'm not asking you to pretend anything. I'm asking you for the nth time to reevaluate that consideration based on the relevant contextual information I pointed out. Or, point out why that contextual information isn't relevant right now not at the time you made your read.

This is our conversation:
LG: this post makes Vic look townie
P: please consider the context of the earlier post, does that change your mind
LG: that one post makes Vic look townie
P: I think the context is relevant, please consider it
LG: that one post makes vic look townie
P: are you saying the context isn't relevant?
LG: back when said Vic was townie based on that post I didn't consider the context
P: :?

Vicarin wrote:I was worried about someone throwing the game on a subconscious level, or at least not really trying their hardest, if they felt that they had the Sash wincon locked in at least. Thankfully, that's not an issue.

Right. I didn't consider townies subconsciously throwing the game. Still, to me this would fall under "very little reason to care about who has it" and as such it's a negligeable difference for town compared to the actual scenario.
On the other hand, for scum the difference between pyrrhic and non-pyrrhic is significant as it strongly increases their odds of a sash win.

So a "sweet, townies can't win through a pyrrhic victory" sentiment seems more apt coming from scum than from town.

@all: your comments on this reasoning please.


LaserGuy wrote:Plytho:

Most of plytho’s content prior to his recent reads list has been short questions with minimal follow-up, reads, or analysis. I don’t really feel that there has been a level of engagement that is really consistent with his Town play, but does look a lot like his scum play in wam’s chaos.
LaserGuy wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:You found plytho very scummy before the Vic slip was explained and before his reads list so I'm ignoring those for now which leaves only your first line. Is that really not what plytho does in town games early D1? What do you expect town plytho to be doing differently?


Scumhunting? Game solving? Providing some level of reads or analysis? You've played with him before. Feel free to pick any of his Town games and see if you can spot the differences. Stellaris and Meta Mafia are good references. Contrast Chaos mafia for a scum game.

crossover: Can't really find something quickly. I got into a huge argument with bessie so probably did look engaged.

secret santa: viewtopic.php?p=4276405#p4276405
bessie wrote: Your content so far in this game has been, well, for you, pretty tame, as already noted by me. You are usually more confrontational, but you possibly were purposely so in Crossover in an effort to make it your town meta. So I don’t know what to think right now, except to note that you have made a conscious decision in the past to develop a meta, and you may be doing so now.


stellaris: viewtopic.php?p=4316209#p4316209
LaserGuy wrote:plytho:
plytho's content is very light this game. I haven't really noticed him at all, which pings me since he's normally much more, um, involved. Leaves me wondering if he's a little self-conscious about being lynched and isn't putting himself out there.


meta mafia: viewtopic.php?p=4358290#p4358290
LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:@LaserGuy: Why plytho?


Most of my reads D1 are a combination of gutreads, tone, and meta. There isn't really a lot to analyse at this point, which is one of the reasons why I hate D1 and normally try to replace in later in the game if I can. Once we get some juicy night results to analyse things become much easier for me. But if I felt that someone was being overly cautious, not wanting to engage, and maybe a bit lurkier than I normally associate with them, that might be enough to put someone on the naughty list at this point.


texas holdem: I was busy D1 and announced this beforehand so didn't really get any complaints there. (aside from bessie, I guess)

So, yeah. People/you have been saying this before in most of my town games.

Looking at his reads in detail, what I mostly see here again is information over analysis. He mostly summarizes people’s content, but doesn’t actually explain why this makes anyone Town/scum. This is particularly true of BoomFrog, moody, me, jimbob.
yup, my reads are shitty. All I have is the Vic slip, almost everyone else is somewhat scummy.

The Vicarin “slip” feels quite manufactured to me. I think plytho has fallen into the same trap as Vic/wam did in WoT3, of assuming that Town should be focused on their secondary wincon rather than realizing that the optimal play for Town is to win as Town, and let the sash business sort itself on its own. Vic is correct here, and not only is this not a slip, but it’s a pro-Town suggestion from Vicarin.
It's not a trap, it's the rules. Vicarin was happy about something that benefits scum more than it benefits town. This has nothing to do with a suggestion.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 8:50 am UTC

Who is getting replaced?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:00 am UTC

Okay, I've read through page 5 now. Still need to digest things and definitely want to reread plytho and BoomFrog now. I particularly like these comments by LaserGuy directed at the pair of them (spoilered for length):
Spoiler:
LaserGuy wrote:
BoomFrog wrote:You found plytho very scummy before the Vic slip was explained and before his reads list so I'm ignoring those for now which leaves only your first line. Is that really not what plytho does in town games early D1? What do you expect town plytho to be doing differently?


Scumhunting? Game solving? Providing some level of reads or analysis? You've played with him before. Feel free to pick any of his Town games and see if you can spot the differences. Stellaris and Meta Mafia are good references. Contrast Chaos mafia for a scum game.

Your defense of plytho is noted.

...

plytho wrote:That's walking me through where I'm wrong. That's an assumption you're making about what I'm saying. Show me where I'm saying town should be focused on the secondary wincon and show me where Vicarin is making that pro-town suggestion.


This is the quote that you claim is a slip:
Vicarin wrote:Also, I asked that because I was wondering if it was possible for me (or anyone else) to get a pyrrhic victory of having the Sash as scum gets a majority. As it's not possible, there's very little reason to worry about who has it beyond making sure that they're not going to accidentally block a bunch of abilities, and making sure scum doesn't get it and try to block stuff on them.


Here's your explanation of why this is a slip.
plytho wrote:This doesn't make sense for town but it makes a lot of sense for scum. Town does need to worry about who has the sash because they need it for the double win. This is true with or without the pyrrhic victory in place. Scum, on the other hand, is relieved that there's no pyrrhic victory possible because that means (assuming 2 scum/individual win) that if they win, they either get a perfect victory and one of them gets the double or the one that survives automatically gets the double win. So town does need to worry and scum doesn't. That's the slip.


Vicarin states in the first quote that Town should not worry about who has the sash. This is the line you have highlighted as a slip. This is the line that you voted for Vicarin on the basis of. The reason that you believe this is a slip is because you believe that Town ought to be worried about who has the sash in order to achieve a double win. This is highlighted in your post. The onus is on you to demonstrate how this is a scumslip. How exactly do you want me to interpret this? How is it a scumslip to say "I don't care about the double win, I just want to win with Town"? If everyone were to adopt this position, do you think it would be more or less likely that Town would achieve our primary wincon? This is very clearly a pro-Town position. Your entire argument here is based on the fact that people ought to be caring about someone getting a sash win. But there is no requirement for us to do so, and, indeed it actually works against our collective interests to do so (much like how scum in WoT3 was overly focused on achieving their secondary wincons whereas Town mostly just ignored them). The fact that you can't see this is, IMHO, scummy.
If this quote was coming from anybody else other than Vicarin, then I'd be crying rolefishing, but Vicarin does this sort of thing all the time:
Vicarin wrote:Can you describe what sorts of actions you're going to take to try to get a Sash win (or could theoretically take), that don't interfere with contributing to a Town victory?
Vicarin wrote:I'd also give slightly more credence to moving the Sash before game end, because I'd prefer it if Scum didn't manage to get a pyrrhic victory if we're winning.
I've lost the context of this post. How could scum ever have claimed a pyrrhic victory?

@plytho, I will go back over your case for why it's a slip at a later point, but I'm pretty sure I disagree with your reasoning. Will try to find the time to pick at it later.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:17 am UTC

request modprod on Mark

request modprod on moody
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby mpolo » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:46 am UTC

@somitomi: You can demand content all you want during European night, it's not going to come, because I am asleep at those times.

So, the intent of the mods seems to be that we specifically try to get the sash at the same time we are playing for our traditional win condition. That means that in certain cases, we are going to be forced to target the sash-holder with our actions to improve the chance of getting the sash, even if that targeting is not our first choice for fulfilling the town win-con. (I sincerely hope we don't have a vigilante who is going to be killing people to get the sash, because that's going to be hard to differentiate from a serial killer.)

I take it the moody argument I am supposed to be looking at is this one:

moody (for giving a NAI read on Mark for this "brain fart" - this doesn't seem well thought through)


I would agree that it is fairly weak as reasoning on moody's part. On the other hand, I wouldn't assign an overwhelmingly scummy value to Mark's question/retraction for the reason moody gave. Which gives at least some level of scumminess for both Mark and moody. Not sure if they are linked by this, though.

What is the case against plytho that is supposed to be so obvious that I would just pop in and vote?

I will be travelling over the next week. I should have Wi-Fi, so should be able to participate more or less normally, but wanted to at least mention this.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 9:56 am UTC

mpolo wrote:What is the case against plytho that is supposed to be so obvious that I would just pop in and vote?

LaserGuy wrote:Plytho:

Most of plytho’s content prior to his recent reads list has been short questions with minimal follow-up, reads, or analysis. I don’t really feel that there has been a level of engagement that is really consistent with his Town play, but does look a lot like his scum play in wam’s chaos.

Looking at his reads in detail, what I mostly see here again is information over analysis. He mostly summarizes people’s content, but doesn’t actually explain why this makes anyone Town/scum. This is particularly true of BoomFrog, moody, me, jimbob.

The Vicarin “slip” feels quite manufactured to me. I think plytho has fallen into the same trap as Vic/wam did in WoT3, of assuming that Town should be focused on their secondary wincon rather than realizing that the optimal play for Town is to win as Town, and let the sash business sort itself on its own. Vic is correct here, and not only is this not a slip, but it’s a pro-Town suggestion from Vicarin.


I have a response in my earlier big post.
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:12 am UTC

mpolo wrote:@somitomi: You can demand content all you want during European night, it's not going to come, because I am asleep at those times.
Where did somitomi demand this?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby LaserGuy » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:23 am UTC

plytho wrote:I'm not asking you to pretend anything. I'm asking you for the nth time to reevaluate that consideration based on the relevant contextual information I pointed out. Or, point out why that contextual information isn't relevant right now not at the time you made your read.


Well, the contextual information isn't relevant right now because, as I've said already, I have other reasons to believe that Vicarin is Town, so even if I were to omit this read (which I don't see any reason to), it wouldn't substantially change my overall opinion of Vicarin.

So, yeah. People/you have been saying this before in most of my town games.


Mmm... this is actually a fair point.

yup, my reads are shitty. All I have is the Vic slip, almost everyone else is somewhat scummy.


That is not the impression I get from your reads at all. If you think almost everyone is somewhat scummy, why didn't your reads reflect that?

It's not a trap, it's the rules. Vicarin was happy about something that benefits scum more than it benefits town. This has nothing to do with a suggestion.


We've already been over this so I'm not going to rehash it again.


I'm going to do this for now while I recalibrate a bit.

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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 10:51 am UTC

Some updated thoughts on the four low-contenteers. I'll try to get an update on everyone else tonight.

Mark: disappeared, probably town (Q&R), possibly indie, probably has the sash.
moody: disappeared, still joke-voting mpolo, very little content, very moody-like observations that don't really tell anything. Most notably the null on Mark which moved to a town based on jimbob's reasoning.
BoomFrog wrote:
plytho wrote:BoomFrog: ... Only provides reason for Jimbob but I don't think it's a good reason.
Jimbobmacdoodle:... I like his reasoning on Mark and moody. Maybe a little too harsh on moody, though.
moody: the null read on mark is odd. It feels like moody skipped the attempt to read mark and went straight for the null. BoomFrog may call this moody being moody but I'm not sure I agree.

Scum!JimBob isn't going to be blatant, we've seen he's good. Is he being too harsh on moody or not? If he's being too harsh do you think it's because he's scum looking for leverage? Mistakes must be magnified by the skill of the player, otherwise we'd just lynch noobs every day.

The problem here is that there's really very little to go on. I agree with jimbob that moody's noncommitance on Mark is weird. At the same time I think it's weird that that's enough for jimbob to vote. On top of that, you're right about this being moody-like but since there's so little else from moody, I feel jimbob is has a point that it's suspicious and there's definitely something to be read in Mark's Q&R, so why didn't moody see that?.
These are two scum pings that feel pretty close in magnitude. You do have a point that jimbob rarely generates those and moody does it all the time so in that view jimbob is looking scummier.

mpolo: seems to be worried about indies and particularly an SK. I'm still not really gettin anything from mpolo so far, it feels like he hasn't really started yet.
mpolo wrote:I take it the moody argument I am supposed to be looking at is this one:

moody (for giving a NAI read on Mark for this "brain fart" - this doesn't seem well thought through)


I would agree that it is fairly weak as reasoning on moody's part. On the other hand, I wouldn't assign an overwhelmingly scummy value to Mark's question/retraction for the reason moody gave. Which gives at least some level of scumminess for both Mark and moody. Not sure if they are linked by this, though.
I don't really understand this reasoning. How do you arrive at "some level scumminess for both Mark and moody"?

mpolo wrote:So, the intent of the mods seems to be that we specifically try to get the sash at the same time we are playing for our traditional win condition. That means that in certain cases, we are going to be forced to target the sash-holder with our actions to improve the chance of getting the sash, even if that targeting is not our first choice for fulfilling the town win-con. (I sincerely hope we don't have a vigilante who is going to be killing people to get the sash, because that's going to be hard to differentiate from a serial killer.)

Yeah, a Vig needing to shoot people every night to grab the sash is bastard in my book, I wouldn't worry about that. As for other roles: if you have three potential tracking targets, sure, pick the one you most likely think has the sash. If you only have one good scum read, track them.

wamitomi:
Zenii wrote:Other things
wam wrote:@jimbob marks played enough to go on **** town wouldn't have asked that

It seemed like wam slipped here and forgot his stated read on Mark. I guess we'll not be getting clarification though : [
That was a response to this:
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:
wam wrote:Marks misstep with all the questions, to me is NAI as I can see him doing it as either alignment.
Do you believe that scum!Mark would have bothered to retract his question? Why?

So not a slip. (scummy ping on Zen)

Nothing else on wam. Eagerly awaiting somitomi's input.

Also:
@BoomFrog: why did you only call me a jerk and not others wanting indies to claim?
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Re: Brooklyn 99 Mafia: Halloween Heist - Day 1 - A-Sashin's Creed

Postby plytho » Wed Nov 07, 2018 11:05 am UTC

LaserGuy wrote:Well, the contextual information isn't relevant right now because, as I've said already, I have other reasons to believe that Vicarin is Town, so even if I were to omit this read (which I don't see any reason to), it wouldn't substantially change my overall opinion of Vicarin.
I'm going to drop this now.
LaserGuy wrote:That is not the impression I get from your reads at all. If you think almost everyone is somewhat scummy, why didn't your reads reflect that?
Mpolo was the neutral line, so on the townie side I only had Zen and jimbob, neither of whom I trust D1 everyone else had suspicious stuff going on.
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