Wams chaos game day 5

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Sabrar
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:18 am UTC

Madge wrote:He and Sabrar probably both want to vote me off today
Do you think that just because you keep repeating something it will somehow magically turn true? I've said it before that I'm not interested in voting or vigging you today but there is nothing else you can focus on.

moody7277 wrote:Kind of glad now that I fibbed about Kirk (had Star Trek on the mind when I made that PM, so it kind of followed easy enough).
So you did not copy your actual role-pm even though you claim the same win-con but decided to falsify a new flavor. I think that is admission enough.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby moody7277 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:37 am UTC

If you're sure that scum are me and Madge, and that's all that's going on, it does not matter to you which order we get voted off. Therefore we can both get what we want today, and you get what you want D4.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:46 am UTC

I'm 99.99% sure about you, I'm ~80% sure about Madge. Not gonna happen.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby moody7277 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:55 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:I'm 99.99% sure about you, I'm ~80% sure about Madge. Not gonna happen.


Well, then town can blame you when they lose.

@mpolo{/b] & somi[/b]: If you have any doubt at all whatsoever that I have a kill, lynching me is the wrong play.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Madge » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:04 am UTC

I'm town so voting me off is also guaranteed doom. I'm handing you scum on a silver platter if you'll just have faith in and believe in me.

And, from a storytelling point of view, what could possibly be more chaotic than believing the shitty scumhunter who has a scummy AF meta who can't even explain her reads? Exactly. It's poetry. Especially because it's the only way we can damn well win.

Seriously town if one of you is vig please kill Sabrar tonight if moody doesn't die.

INSTRUCTIONS TO TOWN IF I DIE AND SOMEHOW IT DOESN'T END THE GAME AND ALSO TOWN WANTS TO FINALLY BELIEVE ME:
If moody is scum, Sabrar is also scum; kill Sabrar.
If moody is town, Sabrar is still scum; kill Sabrar.
If moody is town, plytho is probably scum; kill Plytho but only after you've killed Sabrar first.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby somitomi » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:31 am UTC

mpolo wrote:Don't ask how Gboard turned explicitly into sparkly.

Maybe one of those amusing forum filters.
moody7277 wrote:So, Sabrar, maybe plytho, believe that we're in 4-1-1, and you can deal with scum piece-wise in standard fashion. Madge is also insisting on it, but I really don't care about her opinion at this point. The real situation is this:

3(town)-1(Madge)-1(player X)-1(me)

I'm unsure about which situtation we're in and so I think assuming the second one is the safe option. This sort of implies you're not the scum we're looking for though and there's also what mpolo said about the importance of the flavour text. So yes, I have doubts about you having a kill.

Madge wrote:And, from a storytelling point of view, what could possibly be more chaotic than believing the shitty scumhunter who has a scummy AF meta who can't even explain her reads? Exactly. It's poetry. Especially because it's the only way we can damn well win.

Nice, but I doubt wam used his powers of clairvoyance to set this game up for a specific narrative to occur.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby plytho » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:36 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:1. If I had given my true name right when Sabrar asked, I'd be dead and you'd still have two scum to find and one less person to vote them off.
Yeah, but we'd be in a much better position to do so. Clearly we don't trust your word. I Sabrar had actually vigged indie!you we'd have gained a lynch. Now, if you are telling the truth, we're only going to find out after we lynch you and we'll pay with night kills.

That was clearly a town optimum so your behavior is counter to your claim that you consider yourself in a lost position and just want to help town.

moody7277 wrote:If you don't lynch me, the situation is 3-1-1 but with only one kill. Obviously, that leads to 2-1-1 because scum isn't going to kill an obvious mislynch. At that point if Sabrar is still alive, and not player X, he'll get my true name and you can kill me and player X for a town win.
Why should we trust you to give your true name then? You can just fake out again for a scum win.

moody7277 wrote:@mpolo{/b] & somi[/b]: If you have any doubt at all whatsoever that I have a kill, lynching me is the wrong play.
This goes for anyone, though, doesn't it? Why should doubt protect you from the lynch but not, say, Madge?
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sat Sep 22, 2018 7:50 am UTC

somitomi wrote:I'm unsure about which situtation we're in and so I think assuming the second one is the safe option. This sort of implies you're not the scum we're looking for though and there's also what mpolo said about the importance of the flavour text. So yes, I have doubts about you having a kill.
This is circular reasoning. You start from believing moody about the possibility of a 3-1-1-1 scenario and because of that end up believing moody that he doesn't have a kill. The much simpler explanation is that moody is lying about it just as he lied about everything else. He already admitted making up a false role-pm.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby plytho » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:10 am UTC

Summary of the current game status:

Most of the talking is being done by moody, Madge, Sabrar and me.

Sabrar and I think moody and Madge are the two remaining scum.
Madge thinks moody and Sabrar.
Moody thinks Madge and me

So that gets us to a stalemate as far as scum reads go:
moody (3)
Madge (3)
Sabrar (1)
plytho (1)

I don't think more talking among us 4 is going to push the game forward.

@somitomi, mpolo: I feel you guys need to step up and start taking a stand here. You're pretty much universally considered town so we really need your voices in the conversation. mpolo just rejoined the game and is away for the weekend so I'm willing to give him some leeway. But, somi, you've been around for the entire game so you should have a better picture.

A couple of questions (that I kind of expect you to be working on already): Do you believe moody is indie? Do you believe Madge is VT? Who do you think is more likely scum? If moody is indie, who are the two scum?
somitomi wrote: This is not to say I have confidence in Sabrar being town (moody is clearly not town), but I'll have to do my own research about this.
How's that research going?

Could you post a reads list please?
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby plytho » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:21 am UTC

moody, somitomi asked this interesting question earlier:

somitomi wrote:
moody7277 wrote:I'm just a vanilla survivor, I win if I make it to the end of the game alive. Still have no idea how that was supposed to square with what you pointed out earlier, maybe wam was just going to gloss over it if I were to be alive with town at the end. Unfortunately, I don't have any night-results.

How have you not asked about this in PM already? A survivor being impossible in this game was pointed out on D1, maybe even on page 1.
I'd really like to hear the answer.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Madge » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:35 am UTC

plytho wrote:Do you believe Madge is VT?


I am vanilla town.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sat Sep 22, 2018 8:39 am UTC

@plytho: I somehow doubt moody will answer as I also brought that up without any reaction.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby plytho » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:50 am UTC

Well, now there's three of us asking him so he can't plausibly avoid answering any more.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sat Sep 22, 2018 12:47 pm UTC

Madge wrote:INSTRUCTIONS TO TOWN IF I DIE AND SOMEHOW IT DOESN'T END THE GAME
So I think the 'somehow' is a slip. We are lynching scum, there should be only 1 kill during the night. If that happens to be Madge (or in fact any town at all) then tomorrow we are at 3-1 and game obviously doesn't end.
The only way game is over with Madge's death is if she's scum.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby moody7277 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:14 pm UTC

Checking back, and what somi remembers is among these three posts (1,2,3). The very next post after plytho's shows that I was not concerned about my win con and the town win con being incompatible, so no I did not PM wam about it.


1. http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=125100#p4387247
2. http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=125100#p4387250
3. http://forums.xkcd.com/viewtopic.php?f=53&t=125100#p4387312
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:20 pm UTC

@moody: why did you claim that you were in an unwinnable situation before? Survivor!you could win with scum.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby moody7277 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:29 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@moody: why did you claim that you were in an unwinnable situation before? Survivor!you could win with scum.


That would be winning dirty. The only time I want to win with scum is when I am scum.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:39 pm UTC

I appreciate the sentiment but deliberately not wanting to win with scum would be playing against your wincon.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Madge » Sat Sep 22, 2018 1:45 pm UTC

I feel like we're at MYLO, we have two scum teams left because we are informed if a scum team is eliminated. If I die today, two kills, possibly endgame or town King maker.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sat Sep 22, 2018 2:49 pm UTC

Madge wrote:Everyone thinks moody is scummy and then when he claims non-town it's like "oh I am sure a scummy person WOULDN'T LIE ABOUT BEING A NON-DANGEROUS SCUM". Moody is scum. Moody is dangerous. 100%. Let's not repeat previous mistakes. He goes, a kill goes. Sabrar goes, another kill goes.
Yeah, 2 kills don't happen according to your earlier opinion.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby somitomi » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:09 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
somitomi wrote:I'm unsure about which situtation we're in and so I think assuming the second one is the safe option. This sort of implies you're not the scum we're looking for though and there's also what mpolo said about the importance of the flavour text. So yes, I have doubts about you having a kill.
This is circular reasoning. You start from believing moody about the possibility of a 3-1-1-1 scenario and because of that end up believing moody that he doesn't have a kill. The much simpler explanation is that moody is lying about it just as he lied about everything else. He already admitted making up a false role-pm.

It's not circular, my starting point was that we should consider a 3-1-1-1 scenario, because that gives us less mistakes before game over, not because moody says so.
plytho wrote:How's that research going?

Could you post a reads list please?

Apologies everyone, it's the weekend so I've been working on model railroad stuff and helping my parents around the house. I plan to do this in the evening, hold me accountable.
moody7277 wrote:
Sabrar wrote:@moody: why did you claim that you were in an unwinnable situation before? Survivor!you could win with scum.


That would be winning dirty. The only time I want to win with scum is when I am scum.

I got lynched as survivor once because I could side with mafia in the endgame. I was too much in the town mindset to see it before I stupidly claimed and well, town didn't believe me either. And that was a normal game where me living didn't actually conflict with the town wincon.
Sabrar wrote:
Madge wrote:INSTRUCTIONS TO TOWN IF I DIE AND SOMEHOW IT DOESN'T END THE GAME
So I think the 'somehow' is a slip. We are lynching scum, there should be only 1 kill during the night. If that happens to be Madge (or in fact any town at all) then tomorrow we are at 3-1 and game obviously doesn't end.
The only way game is over with Madge's death is if she's scum.

Hmmmm.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby moody7277 » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:34 pm UTC

@somi: Appreciate the sympathy. Given my meta, I don't get much practice at endgame.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sat Sep 22, 2018 4:48 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:It's not circular, my starting point was that we should consider a 3-1-1-1 scenario, because that gives us less mistakes before game over, not because moody says so.
I understand but I think moody's claim heavily influences your thought-process and if you disregard it then you would have much less reason to consider the 3-1-1-1 setup. Furthermore it has already been demonstrated (for multiple reasons) that moody is just lying.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:00 pm UTC

somitomi wrote:
plytho wrote:How's that research going?

Could you post a reads list please?

Apologies everyone, it's the weekend so I've been working on model railroad stuff and helping my parents around the house. I plan to do this in the evening, hold me accountable.
It's midnight. :wink:

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby somitomi » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:08 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:
somitomi wrote:
plytho wrote:How's that research going?

Could you post a reads list please?

Apologies everyone, it's the weekend so I've been working on model railroad stuff and helping my parents around the house. I plan to do this in the evening, hold me accountable.
It's midnight. :wink:

I'm working on it.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby somitomi » Sat Sep 22, 2018 10:53 pm UTC

Reads&thoughts time.
TOWN
plytho: quite active and fairly thoughtful. He's been one of the people driving the conversation for most of the game and prodding less active players.
mpolo: not much to look at here, he spent D2 dead and isn't the most active player. His posts have nothing suspicious in them though and I feel like he's genuinely trying to figure things out. Additionally, he told us about his double-vote, which scum would probably keep to themselves.
Sabrar: I always have trouble with Sabrar due to the sheer amount of posts (and because he's good). The way he used his vigilante-power seems townie
Madge: my main concern about Madge is that she simultaneously complains that we don't believe her and refuses to post even a little bit of analysis. Kind of strange, since most of us agree with her on moody, so really she'd only have to convince us about Sabrar.
moody: my biggest issue is that moody mislead us with the role-PM he posted. I think this is particularly damning, because it's not consistent with his promise to help town. Why would survivor!moody lie if he thinks he can't win anyway?
MAFIA

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Madge » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:10 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:
Madge wrote:Everyone thinks moody is scummy and then when he claims non-town it's like "oh I am sure a scummy person WOULDN'T LIE ABOUT BEING A NON-DANGEROUS SCUM". Moody is scum. Moody is dangerous. 100%. Let's not repeat previous mistakes. He goes, a kill goes. Sabrar goes, another kill goes.
Yeah, 2 kills don't happen according to your earlier opinion.

??? I don't understand what you're saying.

I think there are two kills, yours and moody's. If I get voted off today, two kills stay, hence why I suspect MYLO.

If moody or you gets voted off today, only one kill stays, hopefully not MYLO.

Finally, remember, Wam told us we'd be told when a side was eliminated. We still have two mafia teams out there.

@all: we gotta have a cop, watcher, tracker, something like that, right? if that's you, please throw me a bone and see if you can use it to catch Sabrar out - maybe then we'll have info to use
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 23, 2018 4:20 am UTC

@Madge: ok, I see what you were saying but why did you assume again that you would be lynched today?

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Sun Sep 23, 2018 5:33 am UTC

@mpolo, somitomi: could you have a look at plytho's statements and my issues with them regarding the 'slip' he found from ConMan? I've collected all links below to save you some time.


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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Madge » Sun Sep 23, 2018 6:27 am UTC

Sabrar wrote:@Madge: ok, I see what you were saying but why did you assume again that you would be lynched today?


Because I'm public enemy number 1
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby plytho » Sun Sep 23, 2018 9:05 am UTC

moody7277 wrote:Checking back, and what somi remembers is among these three posts (1,2,3). The very next post after plytho's shows that I was not concerned about my win con and the town win con being incompatible, so no I did not PM wam about it.
So you weren't concerned. The question is why not? Also, you described your role as unwinnable, not just the situation you found yourself in. That's contradictory.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby mpolo » Sun Sep 23, 2018 10:21 am UTC

Sitting in a traffic jam. It will likely be tomorrow before I can make a major contribution. I am tending to believe Madge, because a claim of vanilla is so contrary to the feel of chaos, but I knew that such role PMs existed.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby moody7277 » Sun Sep 23, 2018 12:42 pm UTC

Madge wrote:
Sabrar wrote:@Madge: ok, I see what you were saying but why did you assume again that you would be lynched today?


Because I'm public enemy number 1


I think you're overestimating yourself.

plytho wrote:So you weren't concerned. The question is why not? Also, you described your role as unwinnable, not just the situation you found yourself in. That's contradictory.


I was figuring on just playing to my win condition, and see how it worked out in the end. Given my meta, there was a really good shot it was going to be moot anyway.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby wam » Mon Sep 24, 2018 8:18 am UTC

Votals

Moody7277 - 1 - Madge

Not voting:Sabrar, Moody7277, Plytho, Somitomi, Mpolo

Deadline Tuesday evening uk time.
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 24, 2018 9:07 am UTC

I must say I actually enjoyed the quiet weekend. But now I'm really looking forward to mpolo's view on things as his belief in Madge and moody's claims seems to put him at odds with the rest of us.

Somitomi's reads puts scum reads at:

moody (4)
madge (4)
plytho (1)
Sabrar (1)
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby Sabrar » Mon Sep 24, 2018 12:47 pm UTC

Madge's D2 in Newbie Mafia

She was Vanilla Town, she was considered suspicious by many players and she really ended up getting lynched. Her tone and content however was completely different from this game, she gave actual reads with reasons behind them.

@moody: could you actually reply to this? Why did you falsify your role-pm if you really wanted to help town?

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby moody7277 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:05 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:@moody: could you actually reply to this? Why did you falsify your role-pm if you really wanted to help town?


Because of the rule I cited I figured that, besides possible mod action, there were going to be role name shenanigans, and as a survivor I didn't want to get caught up in any such. Turns out I was right, but not to the degree that actually happened. To me, it looks like the only reason you wanted the role name was to do what you did, the town helpfulness of which looks debatable, but which doesn't help me at all.

Bit over 24 hours till deadline, so I'll just leave this here.

Vote: Madge
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:17 pm UTC

There are three aspects to the role pm:
- The rolename
- the italic flavor
- the bold text containing power and wincon

You are misleadingly defending your changing of the role pm by focusing on the changing of the rolename but this quote clearly implies you made up the pm, not just the name:

moody7277 wrote:Kind of glad now that I fibbed about Kirk (had Star Trek on the mind when I made that PM, so it kind of followed easy enough).
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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby moody7277 » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:24 pm UTC

The post you cited says I fibbed about the role name. You're inferring the rest was made up because you already thought I was scum.
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Tigerlion wrote:Well, I imagine as the game progresses, various people will be getting moody.


BoomFrog wrote:I still have no idea what town moody really looks like.

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Re: Wams chaos game day 3

Postby plytho » Mon Sep 24, 2018 1:33 pm UTC

No, you said you fibbed about Kirk when you made that role pm.
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