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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:30 pm UTC
by Vicarin
Sabrar wrote:Seeing that you have no idea what I discussed with the mod I don't think you are in a position to know my reasons.


I guess not, but it still makes your statements look awfully suspicious if you're not willing to give a more detailed explanation for the 180 position change.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:31 pm UTC
by wam
Argh hit submit too early.

Second half of that post was going to be. I don't know if maven is a player who would gambit like that though.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 1:39 pm UTC
by Sabrar
Vicarin wrote:I guess not, but it still makes your statements look awfully suspicious if you're not willing to give a more detailed explanation for the 180 position change.

I think we have a different idea what talking about the content of a role-pm means.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 2:56 pm UTC
by SDK
Vicarin wrote:Found it interesting that the town win condition was not posted in the game setup info, asked about it, and apparently that's on purpose (post was updated to reflect these questions). Town all have the same win condition and there's a decent possibility that scum don't know exactly what it is, so discussing it is almost certainly a bad idea until we have more info.

Didn't catch that, but if so, this could be quite powerful. At the very least, it could be used as a one-shot innocent child for any town player.

mpolo wrote:Aliens in general make me a little worried about a cult mechanism (too many sci-fi works have this trope). Although the game is small enough that a cult would be really hard to root out.

God, I hope not. Cults suck. Hopefully that's not the case. I generally consider any alignment changing abilities to be mid-level bastardry at least. Hopefully heury would agree.

Sabrar wrote:SDK is just plain dangerous.

Vote: SDK

Hello! Vote: Sabrar

Sabrar's post weirdness is weird, but maybe not that big a deal? I think it quickly got blown out of proportion, but tempered down for good reason. Maven's probably town, wam felt flip-floppy (which might be normal), and Bessie's probably town.

I'm not sure about Vicarin, but I do agree with him that Sabrar is unlikely to be town. I find it hard to believe that the proper mafia would not be warned about this trap in some way though, so maybe pro-town indy? Or neutral indy of some kind? That said, I do understand what Sabrar is saying about not wanting to play the game in that way, and I believe he's said similar in the past as well. He could be town sticking to his guns, though I doubt it based on how that all went down (he didn't mention this until a little too late, in my opinion). Oh. And then clears everything up for "waiting for a PM" related reasons. Could be true. Standard tack for Sabrar. I feel like that was not nearly as useful as it should have been overall... Might have to reread these exchanges. I guess wam ends up looking worse...

wam wrote:
plytho wrote:Maven volunteering to claim town wincon is weird and I don't see how it could help town.


I've been thinking this through. If I was scum who knew the town win con. In the situation the game was in, That is the sort of gambit I would play to make myseit look town.

I don't like this post.

Unvote, Vote: wam

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:12 pm UTC
by freezeblade
Hi Everyone! I was away over the weekend, and am back now.

I'm just making a quick post so everyone knows I'm here before I go though the thread with thoughts.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:26 pm UTC
by wam
@SDK I love a good gambit, look at stellaris.

@freeze it only started this morning were just going st a 100 miles an hour in terms of content.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:32 pm UTC
by SDK
wam wrote:@SDK I love a good gambit, look at stellaris.

Hey, far be it from me to nag on someone for trying a gambit! I don't know that there has ever been a game when I haven't tried one!

No, my problem with you is where you take that comment. You are more suspicious of maven as a result of that post, correct? Maybe you could better explain your thought process on that one?

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 3:34 pm UTC
by wam
Yeah I need to explain myself better, it's a common theme. Basically what I was trying to say is that I don't view mavens post as alignment indicative as I can see scum maven doing that. I was wondering if anyone had enough meta knowledge of maven to say whether scum maven would be likely to do that.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:35 pm UTC
by Mark_Cangila
I just got back on. I was away over the weekend. I still don't understand how this works. The scheming is odd. Well, no time like now to learn!

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 4:55 pm UTC
by LaserGuy
Sabrar wrote:BTW the setup must be a combination of Shakespeare III and Cross-over but similarly to those I don't think it's balanced.


So, given this, why did you FoS me at the start of the day? Was it not obvious to you that posting your setup spec would immediately draw a reaction from Town? Like, if you'd said this was a gambit, I might have believed you up to a certain point, but this strikes me more as you being kind of oblivious, which is very un-Sabrar-like.

Sabrar wrote:I'm avoiding giving hints to scum and was the reason why I posted my original setup without any modification.

Sabrar wrote:(besides it wouldn't prove anything if my belief of scum receiving the town win-con is true).


If you believe that scum has the Town wincon, what would be the point of avoiding giving them hints about this aspect of the game?

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:00 pm UTC
by LaserGuy
Mark_Cangila wrote:I just got back on. I was away over the weekend. I still don't understand how this works. The scheming is odd. Well, no time like now to learn!


Welcome!

Have you played forum mafia before? If you have any gameplay related questions, don't hesitate to ask. People here are very accommodating to newbies and will try to help you out as best as they can.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:02 pm UTC
by Mark_Cangila
I have not played before. I'm just browsing the wiki and learning.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:03 pm UTC
by SDK
Mark_Cangila wrote:I just got back on. I was away over the weekend. I still don't understand how this works. The scheming is odd. Well, no time like now to learn!

Hi Mark! I've been away for a while, but are you new here? If so, welcome to mafia!

If you're unsure about where to start, just make sure you understand your role PM fully. Don't hesitate to ask heury any and all questions! He might not be able to answer some, but it's better to ask when you're starting out. He can tell you a lot, including on how your role relates to other players in general. If you've got that covered, give some thoughts on what others have been posting so far. I suspect wam - do you share that suspicion? What do you think about Sabrar? Is Vicarin playing like he's town, or is he trying to push the game in a direction that he likes? That sort of thing.

Two questions for you:
1) What do you mean by "scheming"?
2) Why did you post your gender pronouns half an hour before making a post here in-thread? Was that prompted by reading this thread when Sabrar asked Vicarin to do it?

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:06 pm UTC
by Sabrar
LaserGuy wrote:So, given this, why did you FoS me at the start of the day?
Because given our history you specifically should have been more aware that anything I say at the beginning of the day might not be exactly what I think. But no, you straight up jumped to immediately voting me without considering any alternatives.

LaserGuy wrote:If you believe that scum has the Town wincon, what would be the point of avoiding giving them hints about this aspect of the game?
Never claimed to be infallible.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:17 pm UTC
by Mark_Cangila
SDK wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote:I just got back on. I was away over the weekend. I still don't understand how this works. The scheming is odd. Well, no time like now to learn!

Hi Mark! I've been away for a while, but are you new here? If so, welcome to mafia!

If you're unsure about where to start, just make sure you understand your role PM fully. Don't hesitate to ask heury any and all questions! He might not be able to answer some, but it's better to ask when you're starting out. He can tell you a lot, including on how your role relates to other players in general. If you've got that covered, give some thoughts on what others have been posting so far. I suspect wam - do you share that suspicion? What do you think about Sabrar? Is Vicarin playing like he's town, or is he trying to push the game in a direction that he likes? That sort of thing.

Two questions for you:
1) What do you mean by "scheming"?
2) Why did you post your gender pronouns half an hour before making a post here in-thread? Was that prompted by reading this thread when Sabrar asked Vicarin to do it?

1. I meant discussion/suspicion instead. Sorry.
2. I'm at school so I can only be on every now and then. But yeah, I needed a bit of time to read the thread.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:19 pm UTC
by Mark_Cangila
Sabrar wrote:[
LaserGuy wrote:If you believe that scum has the Town wincon, what would be the point of avoiding giving them hints about this aspect of the game?
Never claimed to be infallible.

This gets me, because having read a tiny bit on the wiki it says that Scum will try to make Town think of unlikely possibilities and worry about those. If you suspect Scum know the wincon, why bring it up?

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:22 pm UTC
by LaserGuy
Sabrar wrote:
LaserGuy wrote:So, given this, why did you FoS me at the start of the day?
Because given our history you specifically should have been more aware that anything I say at the beginning of the day might not be exactly what I think. But no, you straight up jumped to immediately voting me without considering any alternatives.


:|
And why do you feel this reaction is alignment indicative for me?

LaserGuy wrote:If you believe that scum has the Town wincon, what would be the point of avoiding giving them hints about this aspect of the game?
Never claimed to be infallible.


:|

I like the new guy. He can be Town too.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:22 pm UTC
by Sabrar
Mark_Cangila wrote:This gets me, because having read a tiny bit on the wiki it says that Scum will try to make Town think of unlikely possibilities and worry about those. If you suspect Scum know the wincon, why bring it up?
I think you've got this backwards. Scum knowing the town win-con is how things are usually done.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:23 pm UTC
by Sabrar
LaserGuy wrote:And why do you feel this reaction is alignment indicative for me?
Because I would expect town!you to show some restraint after all the previous games when you falsely accused me because of some perceived issue.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:51 pm UTC
by heuristically_alone
I've been asked enough so clarifying here in the game thread. Town win condition may have been provided to some other factions, all other factions, or no other factions.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:59 pm UTC
by wam
So what pings me is town sabrar very rarely backs down in my experience. Having never played with scum sabrar does he back down more as scum? I'm looking at Bessie here.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 5:59 pm UTC
by wam
Also welc9me Mark. As others have said ask any questions we will try and help.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:03 pm UTC
by Sabrar
wam wrote:So what pings me is town sabrar very rarely backs down in my experience. Having never played with scum sabrar does he back down more as scum? I'm looking at Bessie here.

If you could define what you mean by 'backing down' and/or provide some examples we could have some meaningful discussion going here.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:23 pm UTC
by wam
Here you go Sabrar

Post 1 (of case): says not telling scum the town win con is not minimal bastardry

Spoiler:
Sabrar wrote:
Vicarin wrote:@Sabrar: I don't think that a quick lynch is the way to go as we've got ages to discuss stuff, but you're not doing a very good job of defending yourself.
I haven't been scum since Crossover, I tried to shake up my meta multiple times and I'm still accused in every single game of being weird. I get tired of that.

bessie wrote:How does this follow from the mod not posting the town win condition in the OP?
How do you reconcile minimal bastardry with the hypothetical situation of scum not being told the town win-con?


Post 2: Says will not use role Pm's as a basis on principle and is happy to be lynched based on it.

Spoiler:
Sabrar wrote:Let's just nip it in the bud before you needlessly wait for me to explain it.

I was once mod-warned about fishing for information in another player's role-pm. Here was my take on the situation. Quoting myself:
I'm against outside circumstances (like wording in pm) deciding the outcome of any game

So no, I'm not going to discuss role-pms. I'm perfectly fine being lynched over this, it's just not how I want to play the game.

@Maven: You should be aware of rule 7.


Post 3 & 4: Backs up post 2

Spoiler:
Sabrar wrote:Obviously the specifics were different but it was the closest example I could find. I understand all of your issues but I still don't wish to discuss it (besides it wouldn't prove anything if my belief of scum receiving the town win-con is true).


Spoiler:
Sabrar wrote:As explained before, it's not how I want to play the game. I get it that you think differently and want to lynch me because of it but you do not seem to make any effort trying to understand my pov.


Post 5: Changes tack and talks about setup based on role pm

Spoiler:
Sabrar wrote:BTW the setup must be a combination of Shakespeare III and Cross-over but similarly to those I don't think it's balanced.


Post 6: Brings up the question to the mod as reason

Spoiler:
Sabrar wrote:WoT2 did not have a 'Town'-faction.

@Vicarin: I had to wait for the mod to answer a question.


Post 7: Backs up post 6

Spoiler:
Sabrar wrote:Seeing that you have no idea what I discussed with the mod I don't think you are in a position to know my reasons.


Post 8: Claims the change is different to talking about content of role-pm.

Sabrar wrote:
Vicarin wrote:I guess not, but it still makes your statements look awfully suspicious if you're not willing to give a more detailed explanation for the 180 position change.

I think we have a different idea what talking about the content of a role-pm means.


As I stated to me sabrar seemed to back down massively between post 5 and 6. Also if its a matter of principle I can't see how a question to the mod can change his view.

The above has made up my mind
Vote Sabrar

We have a lot of time so no rush! Please note that I will be away friday to sunday so my posting will be very limited.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:29 pm UTC
by SDK
Sabrar, what did you ask the mod and what response did you get?

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:29 pm UTC
by Sabrar
You misunderstood me. Please bring examples from previous games from which you claim to know how town!me behaves.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:30 pm UTC
by Sabrar
SDK wrote:Sabrar, what did you ask the mod and what response did you get?
Sorry, that's private.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:32 pm UTC
by wam
Sabrar wrote:You misunderstood me. Please bring examples from previous games from which you claim to know how town!me behaves.


That will take longer! Off the top of my head the ridiculous tunnelling on me in SS. I will try and get examples tonight but it maybe tomorrow.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:32 pm UTC
by wam
EBWOP That was not meant to be bolded.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:34 pm UTC
by SDK
Sabrar wrote:You misunderstood me. Please bring examples from previous games from which you claim to know how town!me behaves.

You know as well as anyone that meta only goes so far, Sabrar. At the end of the day, you will be held accountable not to your own standard, but to the standard of the majority. How you behave elsewhere is relevant, but more relevant is how the other players think you ought to behave.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:50 pm UTC
by Sabrar
SDK wrote:At the end of the day, you will be held accountable not to your own standard, but to the standard of the majority. How you behave elsewhere is relevant, but more relevant is how the other players think you ought to behave.
I'm aware but being stubborn I'm still trying to change it.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:51 pm UTC
by Mark_Cangila
Sabrar wrote:
Mark_Cangila wrote:This gets me, because having read a tiny bit on the wiki it says that Scum will try to make Town think of unlikely possibilities and worry about those. If you suspect Scum know the wincon, why bring it up?
I think you've got this backwards. Scum knowing the town win-con is how things are usually done.

Why bring it up then? It seems unnecessary. If you were scum, there are 2 possibilities. You know the town win con, or you don't. If you do, this helps repress townie conversation. If you don't, then reverse psychology? Not sure for that. It still pings me a bit.

Vote: Sabrar

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:51 pm UTC
by Mark_Cangila
Also, what is FoSing?

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:53 pm UTC
by LaserGuy
FoS means "Finger of Suspicion". It's basically a way of saying "I think that you might be scum, but I don't feel it strongly enough to vote right now".

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 6:54 pm UTC
by Sabrar
FoS = Finger of Suspicion

It's like an unoffical vote.

Mark_Cangila wrote:Why bring it up then?
Vicarin already brought it up before me.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:06 pm UTC
by Mark_Cangila
Sabrar wrote:FoS = Finger of Suspicion

It's like an unoffical vote.

Mark_Cangila wrote:Why bring it up then?
Vicarin already brought it up before me.

Oh. Crap. My bad.
Unvote
FoS: Vicarin

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 7:37 pm UTC
by LaserGuy
SDK wrote:I'm not sure about Vicarin, but I do agree with him that Sabrar is unlikely to be town. I find it hard to believe that the proper mafia would not be warned about this trap in some way though, so maybe pro-town indy? Or neutral indy of some kind?


How do you see a pro-Town indie fitting into this setup, exactly?

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 9:48 pm UTC
by jimbobmacdoodle
Scattered thoughts and comments in no particular order:
LaserGuy wrote:
SDK wrote:I'm not sure about Vicarin, but I do agree with him that Sabrar is unlikely to be town. I find it hard to believe that the proper mafia would not be warned about this trap in some way though, so maybe pro-town indy? Or neutral indy of some kind?


How do you see a pro-Town indie fitting into this setup, exactly?
I'd like to hear your answer to this as well at some point, LaserGuy. Happy for it to be after SDK's response.

@Sabrar - WoT2 didn't have an official Town faction, but the unaligned players were essentially Town.

I'm a little concerned that everybody is focusing too much on Sabrar (at least that's what I get the feeling of). Don't get me wrong - the suspicions on Sabrar are justified, I just feel like half the players are essentially being ignored. Mind you, it's only day 1 of D1, so still plenty of time.

heuristically_alone wrote:Faction win conditions purposely left out of the Original Post.
For balance reasons, I don't believe it likely that scum don't have the human faction PM, having thought about it a bit more. However, I think it's possible that one or more other factions (indies?) don't for whatever reason, with part of their challenge having to be to figure it out somehow.

plytho wrote:First thoughts, Sabrar is suspicious and I don't feel his last posts absolve him of that suspicion.
Please explain what you find suspicious about Sabrar, and why his posts don't absolve him of that suspicion, as much as you can without giving away the town win con.

I should have mentioned this earlier, but D1 is going to be VERY busy for me IRL, especially Friday through to deadline, so I'm not sure how much posting I'm going to be able to do for the rest of the day. Will be back to normal D2.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:23 pm UTC
by Maven89
If I had to kill 3 people right now, it's be Sabrar, Wam and Bessie, in that order. Sabrar for obvious reasons I already mentioned, Wam because his response to the questiosn about Sabrar are so vague that it seems clear he has no idea what we're really talking about, and Bessie for something semi-similar.

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day One)

Posted: Mon Apr 30, 2018 10:56 pm UTC
by LaserGuy
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I'd like to hear your answer to this as well at some point, LaserGuy. Happy for it to be after SDK's response.


Sure, I'll give you some thoughts on indies after I hear from SDK.