Alien Warfare Mafia (GAME OVER)

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LaserGuy
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 10, 2018 4:01 am UTC

Madge wrote:Melissa Chapman?


Yes...

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Madge » Thu May 10, 2018 4:01 am UTC

The alien races are all animorphs alien races, and my name is extremely similar to an animorphs character's name, and Melissa Chapman is an animorphs character too.

Heury said it doesn't mean anything but it's still interesting. I probably should have kept my mouth shut because I could expose fake role names.
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Madge
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Madge » Thu May 10, 2018 4:02 am UTC

I assumed someone else must have picked it up, but I think I read the Megamorphs: In The Time of Dinosaurs book ten times as a kid, and that featured the Mercora prominently (though they were antagonistic to the Nesk, so you know).
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LaserGuy
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 10, 2018 4:02 am UTC

That's interesting :D

There's also something else that I'm not sure if other people have claimed or I'm the only one who can claim it. It's interesting.


Check Page 11 for mpolo's role PM. If it's not included there, then presumably it's exclusive to you.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Vicarin » Thu May 10, 2018 4:03 am UTC

Hmmm, I can't seem to find any relation between my human name and animorphs...

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Madge
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Madge » Thu May 10, 2018 4:06 am UTC

Mine own name is spelled differently and one of the alien species is extremely obscure (like, one or two throwaway sentences in one book obscure). After the game I might be able to tell you or Heury can tell us :P
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Vicarin
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Vicarin » Thu May 10, 2018 4:08 am UTC

Oh, looks like he might have made up a last name for a character that doesn't have one, huh.

But yeah, I'd guess that h_a just took the names and not much else then.

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Sabrar
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 10, 2018 4:12 am UTC

I google-searched the alien names in my role-pm right after I got it and found this. Illaman later also confirmed that it was animorphs but I think it's irrelevant.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby heuristically_alone » Thu May 10, 2018 4:14 am UTC

I'll jump in here real quick for a comment. The flavor itself is not based on a book series though names may have been taken from one for my own pure enjoyment. It is 100% impossible to distinguish anyone's faction based on names as they were all randomly chosen.
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Vicarin » Thu May 10, 2018 4:15 am UTC

Thanks h_a that's pretty much what I expected from the beginning of day flavour.

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bessie
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby bessie » Thu May 10, 2018 5:15 am UTC

Picking up on P15.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I stand by my reasons. Please explain why you find my reasons questionable.

Reference this post.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:It would reducing the kill pool by 1, yes. It would also reduce the lynch pool by the same number, not to mention allow more focused use of player abilities on both sides, so I don't think it makes significant difference. I wonder if you might be against it because we're unlikely to lynch a revealed Illaman at this point?
1. It would reduce the kill pool by 1. This is not good for town.
2. It would reduce the lynch pool by 1. Ok, increases the odds of lynching scum but reducing the lynch pool also increases the chance of lynching town. You are assuming that we would be removing someone scummy from the pool, making it easier to pick a target, this is not necessarily the case.
3. Ok, perhaps town could better select night targets, but I don’t want mafia to have more info to select their night targets. I want scum to waste whatever powers they have at night targeting Illaman. And I don’t think the tradeoff is balanced when you consider typical town/scum powers.

Sabrar wrote:Also would have appreciated if people don't start giving ideas to Illaman about how to kill us...
Like telling Mark to target the scummiest person and redirect them to SDK? :P

plytho wrote:@bessie: did you miss my question?
Sorry plytho, yes I did miss it.
plytho wrote:
bessie wrote: Feeling is wam didn’t know about the other two factions, so if he’s Garatron there’s probably 3.
How did you get that feeling?
plytho, I did a single read through on N1 and wrote that post, so I'll try to explain it as well as I can remember, with the reminder that I have since seen wam's flip. wam's D1 content didn’t seem like he knew there were two indie factions until we started talking about them and I can say that I didn’t expect the indie factions to be named in his role pm, because if he knew the setup from the beginning he would have known what we found suspicious in Sabrar’s setup spec, and not blundered here. My theory now is perhaps in the beginning he thought one of the named factions was the human faction.

Vicarin wrote:When we lynch the last Garatron, I thought we're going to have to have a somewhat interesting conversation in Town about which side to lynch away, and the deciding factor is almost certainly going to be how each faction acted towards Town.
TBH, if the game is in the state you describe, I don’t think this that this going to be a deciding factor at all. I think it will more likely depend on what powers are out there.

Vicarin wrote:I'm not particularly interested in continuing in this argument because I know that you'll never, ever, ever admit defeat (I still remember what happened in the Newbie Game :P) but if you still feel like winning this game, just show that you're more trustworthy than Illaman and I'll be happy to side with you once the last Garatron is dead.
This is a promise you shouldn’t make, because this is a promise you can’t keep.

Everyone with setup spec 7/2/2/2, I’m still not seeing it based on the Garatron win condition.
wam wrote: You are in the alien faction Garatron with [Name(s) Redacted]

Faction Ability: You have night chat, and each night one of you may make a night kill. Please include me in all conversations.

Role: You are a Exact Rolecop. Each night you may target a player to gain knowledge of their alignment and role.

Win Condition: You win when at least one Garatron is alive, and only one of either Mercora or Illaman has at least one living member. All others must be dead.
For Garatron to win, they need to kill almost everyone else in the game. I mean, Ok, maybe it’s not totally unreasonable for Garatron to start with two and no recruit, but is it likely?

LaserGuy wrote: General tone and play all align with what I expect from Town!plytho (except maybe that he hasn't done an outrageous tunnel on bessie).
Give us time. :lol:

Maven89 wrote:Sorry, but I'm going to need a replacement for this game. I'm going to be working 50 hours a week for the next two weeks and I wont be able to keep this up. Apologies
Good luck with the job! We all look forward to playing with you again when things calm down at work.

plytho wrote:Bessie: Bessie was very early to vote wam, second only behind SDK. I don’t really see garatron!bessie bussing this hard. On the other hand, she spent most of her time D2 interacting with Sabrar, SDK and Vicarin. They don’t feel like priorities to me, so I feel bessie hasn’t really been trying to help town with her play today. Maybe Illaman? Her town to scum looks similar to my own. But if her buddy is already outed she should have no problem sorting everyone else. Illaman/Human
Well, first of all, you are assuming that both Sabrar and SDK are being entirely truthful in what they have revealed. I agree it is likely that they are being truthful at this point, but FoS anyone that is trying to downplay the potential threat of Mercora (or Illaman). I mean, we’re talking about Sabrar and SDK. One of them is a clever crafty slimy manipulative genius, the other is an evil supercomputer that is currently plotting our doom and will be sending the plans via secret pm to his buddy on N2. Sure, they’re not the immediate threat, but I will be watching them. But yes, plytho, I have been interacting with them because they have been interacting with me, possibly to keep me occupied. It’s embarrassingly easy to distract me, as I’ve admitted here, especially if you can bait me into a debate. You should be well aware of this, as you are usually the one with whom I am debating, and you should also know that it is non-alignment indicative for me.

Liri, briefly, me, heury, freezeblade, LaserGuy, Maven, and SDK (and you if I remember correctly) are in North American time zones. jimbob, mpolo, plytho, Sabrar, and wam are in European time zones. Vicarin is in Australia. I don’t know where Mark is. Yes, much of the action seems to take place while I am at work or asleep, so I too feel as if I’m always behind. I tend to post late at night (I’m in California) and usually just manage to catch Sabrar in the morning. We usually have to wait for the weekends to have our real-time arguments. :) :P

Ok, I was almost caught up, but this is where I was pulled away from my computer and had to take care of something which took a lot longer than I expected, and came back to...

Thank you Madge for replacing!

And, well, Madge starts out true to meta. If she’s Illaman we should know soon enough.

Madge wrote:Has anyone discussed the animorphs flavour at all?
Never heard of it...google... :shock: ...jeezuzfuckingchrist. Ok, heury has claimed in bold that the names were randomly assigned to factions. I’m going to trust he would never violate the sanctity of the mod-bolding rule.

I haven’t had a chance to start my comprehensive reads list yet, posting what I have for now.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 10, 2018 5:36 am UTC

bessie always says such nice things about me... :lol:

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Madge
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Madge » Thu May 10, 2018 5:37 am UTC

what are you bessie?

Animorphs was a great book series. The pdfs / mobi files are floating around the internet, and you can read each book in an hour. It's a really dark take for a series aimed at kids, it's got war and the ending is realistic, which means a lot of people hate it but the author explained what she was going for with the ending and I respect that.

If you're interested I can probably rustle up a list of the "essential" books in the series, which had about 60 books total, and of those probably about 30 are non-filler. (The other 30 are "the evil aliens had a plan. the animorphs stopped it. then they all went to the mall.")
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LaserGuy
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 10, 2018 7:16 am UTC

bessie wrote:Everyone with setup spec 7/2/2/2, I’m still not seeing it based on the Garatron win condition.
wam wrote: You are in the alien faction Garatron with [Name(s) Redacted]

Faction Ability: You have night chat, and each night one of you may make a night kill. Please include me in all conversations.

Role: You are a Exact Rolecop. Each night you may target a player to gain knowledge of their alignment and role.

Win Condition: You win when at least one Garatron is alive, and only one of either Mercora or Illaman has at least one living member. All others must be dead.
For Garatron to win, they need to kill almost everyone else in the game. I mean, Ok, maybe it’s not totally unreasonable for Garatron to start with two and no recruit, but is it likely?


I don't follow. Garatron wins easier in this setup than a normal game even with only two players. If one of the indie faction sides with them, they have four votes. If SDK's faction sides with them, they potentially have 5. Worst case scenario, one mislynch and one dead Townie puts us at MYLO. With three scum, Town loses if they lynch Illaman or mislynch on D1.

In a typical 10-3 setup, Town has three mislynches available. In a 7-2-2-2 setup, we have two mislynches available. And since Garatron can win with either indie faction, lynching an indy (except maybe SDK) is almost as bad as lynching Town.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby jimbobmacdoodle » Thu May 10, 2018 8:08 am UTC

Okay, thank you for your explanation bessie, although I'm not sure I agree with all of your points. What do you think about Vicarin and his ultimatum.

If Vicarin didn't feel so pro-town near game start, I'd FoS him for being so fixated on Illaman claiming, even going so far as to propose lynching someone who will actively be trying to help us by redirecting the scum kill away from town. I still am going to review his early content when I get a chance.
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plytho
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby plytho » Thu May 10, 2018 8:23 am UTC

I'll have very little time today. (It's a holiday here and it's fully booked with gardening and boardgames).

I agree with jimbob. Vicarin has felt very town all game, but proposing a mark lynch instead of hunting garatron seems like a bad idea. If it wasn't for that town cred I'd think vic was mercora.
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Sabrar
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 10, 2018 8:52 am UTC

Random, mostly off-topic rambling
Spoiler:
bessie wrote:the other is an evil supercomputer that is currently plotting our doom and will be sending the plans via secret pm to his buddy on N2.
I've decided not to do that because there is a chance that Mark would redirect my message (probably to himself) and publish it. Obviously I thought about ways to work my way around that problem and even managed to get mod-approval but on further reflection it feels wrong.
The rule about 'no cryptography' is a strange one when it comes to my messaging ability. I am allowed to include a code-word that when repeated publicly the next day would prove that I was the one sending the message. I'm also allowed to give a code-word to the recipient which s/he can use to prove that the message was received. I am definitely NOT allowed to set up any kind of code that can be used to send secret messages during the day.
Now comes the funny part. I am however allowed to write my message encoded and publish the key the next day. With this method if I was redirected (which would be evident as Mark is Loud) I could choose not to publish the key and therefore my message would be lost.
So where is the issue? The strongest form of cryptography is the one-time pad which is proven to be unbreakable no matter what resources the enemy has. Unfortunately in this case we can not differentiate between the encoded text and the key as they are interchangeable for the purposes I intend to use them. Therefore while technically I would be allowed to send my message this way, this would be completely indistinguishable from the previous case (setting up a code to communicate privately).
So as much as I would have enjoyed my interests in the field of cryptography to have any kind of meaning, sadly I must decline the opportunity and figure out another use of my awesome ability.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Vicarin » Thu May 10, 2018 1:46 pm UTC

I'm not seeing the argument for aliens claiming being bad for town: we've got a solid block of town which are almost certainly going to draw the NK anyway. If freezeblade suddenly claimed Illaman now for example, would that really make it more likely that town gets NKed? On the other hand, it does help significantly with targeting the lynch effectively. The probabilistic argument for it being bad only works if everyone has equal likelihood of being lynched or NKed, but we've got a solid townie block and a solid suspicious block, so removing people from the suspicious block is really good.

Hence my current promise with Mark. It's not an ideal lynch, but as it would be basically suicide for Illaman to not claim and have Mark die, I somewhat doubt it will happen. In the unlikely case this does happen however, eliminating an unpredictable redirector (why redirect LaserGuy onto me???) is not terrible for town, so I'm not too unhappy following through on it. Hopefully Sabrar and SDK appreciate my efforts to level the playing field between Mercora and Illaman too :P

I'd appreciate it too for everyone not currently claimed to make definitive 'I am not Illaman' statements to give Illaman less wriggle room if they try to hold off until later, but who knows if that will help much.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby SDK » Thu May 10, 2018 1:55 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:Hopefully Sabrar and SDK appreciate my efforts to level the playing field between Mercora and Illaman too :P

Right! I hate playing survivor. I love playing town. I will play as town full-out 100% as long as I can if Illaman is dead. Don't know if that will change anyone's mind, but I am a good player. Having me devoted on your side rather than just watching might be worth the wasted lynch. Think about it, anyway.

(To be honest, I doubt you need me based on where we're at with the wincon reveals, but... you know.)
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Vicarin
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Vicarin » Thu May 10, 2018 2:03 pm UTC

The slight problem is that I need you to play town BEFORE Illaman all dies out or you're just gonna stab us in the back once it happens :P

You're definitely first on the chopping block if Illaman dies just because of your double vote honestly. But I really, really hope it won't come to that.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Thu May 10, 2018 2:44 pm UTC

bessie wrote:Also would have appreciated if people don't start giving ideas to Illaman about how to kill us...
Like telling Mark to target the scummiest person and redirect them to SDK? :P
[/quote]
Thanks for the great idea!

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Thu May 10, 2018 2:45 pm UTC

:oops: I meant to put the redirect bit in quotes. Lol

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SDK
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby SDK » Thu May 10, 2018 4:30 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:The slight problem is that I need you to play town BEFORE Illaman all dies out or you're just gonna stab us in the back once it happens :P

You're definitely first on the chopping block if Illaman dies just because of your double vote honestly.

If both of these sentences are true, where's my motivation? You're asking a lot and promising death. Luckily some of your human companions seem a little more inclined to work with us.
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LaserGuy
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 10, 2018 4:56 pm UTC

Vicarin wrote:The slight problem is that I need you to play town BEFORE Illaman all dies out or you're just gonna stab us in the back once it happens :P

You're definitely first on the chopping block if Illaman dies just because of your double vote honestly. But I really, really hope it won't come to that.


:?
This doesn't make sense. We need one of the indie factions alive. We can't be lynching all Illaman and then start lynching Mercora afterward because we need them around to win. We need to lynch Garatron. Lynching the indies is counterproductive to Town.

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Postby Mark_Cangila » Thu May 10, 2018 6:46 pm UTC

LaserGuy wrote:
Vicarin wrote:The slight problem is that I need you to play town BEFORE Illaman all dies out or you're just gonna stab us in the back once it happens :P

You're definitely first on the chopping block if Illaman dies just because of your double vote honestly. But I really, really hope it won't come to that.


:?
This doesn't make sense. We need one of the indie factions alive. We can't be lynching all Illaman and then start lynching Mercora afterward because we need them around to win. We need to lynch Garatron. Lynching the indies is counterproductive to Town.

What he means is that they only need one of a faction alive. Also, to the other Illaman, I say this: CLAIM. We will not survive if I get lynched now. If there are 2 Illaman and 3 Mercora left, the Mercora will win. WE are quicker to lynch. CLAIM.

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Sabrar
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 10, 2018 6:58 pm UTC

I bet the first player to claim Illaman will be actually Garatron.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby SDK » Thu May 10, 2018 7:11 pm UTC

I'll take that bet. Proof is in the lynch?
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 10, 2018 7:11 pm UTC

Of course. :D

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby SDK » Thu May 10, 2018 7:13 pm UTC

Deal. *secret Mercora handshake*
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Mark_Cangila » Thu May 10, 2018 7:34 pm UTC

SDK wrote:I'll take that bet. Proof is in the lynch?

Sabrar wrote:I bet the first player to claim Illaman will be actually Garatron.

Sabrar wrote:Of course. :D

SDK wrote:Deal. *secret Mercora handshake*

Of course a Mercora would say this... Maybe the claimed 3rd Mercora is Garatron

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Sabrar » Thu May 10, 2018 7:40 pm UTC

There is no 3rd Mercora.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby freezeblade » Thu May 10, 2018 8:11 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:There is no 3rd Mercora.


That we know of.
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby SDK » Thu May 10, 2018 8:23 pm UTC

4-3-3-3 setup? Impossible.
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby freezeblade » Thu May 10, 2018 9:03 pm UTC

Honestly, with the quirky-ness of this setup, which is by nature "unbalanced" from the perspective of most games on these forms (with exceptions of course), I don't think that we can discount any setup numbers using standard "xkcd forum mafia" metrics as a guide.
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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Vicarin » Thu May 10, 2018 11:20 pm UTC

Sabrar wrote:I bet the first player to claim Illaman will be actually Garatron.


Gee, I wonder if that's why I want them to claim today, so that Mark can confirm their identity...

@LaserGuy: I don't want to kill all the Illaman, but if Mark is lynched and there's only one other, then they're in a stupidly bad position. They either have to risk losing to the lynch or NK, or they have to claim anyway (in which case, why not now?). Also, if there's only Mercora left, lynching a double voting survivor still buys a small bit of time before we lose control of the lynch, and Sabrar wouldn't be in danger.

@SDK: your motivation is to work with town before all of Illaman dies out? As soon as they do, you're the most dangerous known member of a survivor + scum team. I'm only promising death if Illaman dies out before Garatron, so maybe you should focus on Garatron first, eh?

I'd also say a 5-3-3-2 setup isn't completely impossible, it could basically be a 5-2 setup with a bunch of people messing with the results. Though 7-2-2-2 or 6-2-2-3 are looking the most likely.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby LaserGuy » Thu May 10, 2018 11:39 pm UTC

Diplomacy is not your strong suit :P

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Vicarin » Thu May 10, 2018 11:45 pm UTC

Wasn't claiming it was :P

Just trying to strongarm people into cooperating with town right now.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Vicarin » Thu May 10, 2018 11:48 pm UTC

Like that Illaman who is just letting their teammate die. In a really easy to avoid fashion.

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Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Madge » Fri May 11, 2018 12:55 am UTC

We're going to need to side with an alien race in order to win, but I don't like the idea of killing people who we think are definitely in the "neutral" races.

Like, we want to kill the Garatrons, right? That's certain. Are we trying to kill Mark because we know he's non-human, or are we trying to kill Mark because we suspect he might be a Garatron?

I don't support killing someone because they claim non-human if we have people who we suspect are Garatron.

Town doesn't have to choose which neutral race to side with until the very last minute, we may as well try to vote out Garatron and if we accidentally annihilate a neutral race, then that's not a disaster. Rather do that than vote out members of the neutral race we find least helpful at the moment, since we're not trying to identify Garatron.

But at the end of the day, the Garatron are going to claim human or M/I, so we're going to be in for some trouble. I'm not convinced a Garatron would be best served by claiming alien, anyway - I think there's a lot to be said for them claiming human, but I won't go into that. So we should look suspiciously at claimed/suspected humans just as any alien species.

But Vicarin makes a good point - once one of the neutrals are dead, then the other is incentivised to scumside.

May have been answered earlier but:

Will we be informed when a team is eliminated

Also, in the interest of transparency, I'm not planning on reading the backlog as I feel like I understand what's going on and what's happening now is FUN and reading old speculation is NOT FUN. So forgive me if I get past stuff wrong or miss things that were covered earlier.
I'm writing a supernatural romance novel, it updates the first weekend of every month. You can find it here.

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Vicarin
Posts: 7
Joined: Sat Jan 05, 2008 7:45 am UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Alien Warfare Mafia (Day Two)

Postby Vicarin » Fri May 11, 2018 1:19 am UTC

I'm willing to kill Mark at the moment because the fact that there's at least 1 unclaimed Illaman is really, really annoying for town. As long as there's at least one, Garatron will probably try claiming Illaman if they're going to be lynched (because hey, why not?) and this is hard to distinguish from an actual Illaman claim. If they claim, then we can also just get Mark to verify them and go back to finding Garatron with 1 less lynch suspect, which sound pretty great to me.

However, whoever they are, they're being REALLY stubborn with not claiming, so I'll settle for lynching Mark so that if they don't claim, they've got almost no chance at winning.


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