Sorry for my absence last night. So, is anyone talking about me me me?
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: Firstly, and I think I've said this before, there's quite a bit of fluff in her posts D1. It's not at the exclusion of other content though, but it does make it seem like she's posting more than she actually is. That being said, I don't think it's actually more than I usually see from her, but I'm not certain.
I’ll challenge this. There is very little fluff in my D1 content. You’re either making an accusation that you hope everyone is too worn down by the content overload to go back and verify, or you are not reading my posts carefully.
Another thing that stood out to me early on was her vote on somitomi. The stated reasons for it are not good:
I’ve called people scummy for auto slapping a town label on me, and you can expect the same from me if you try to use my townie meta coupled with one successful game as mafia to slap a suspicious label on me. If you’re suspicious of me, fine, vote for me, but you better back it up with some analysis from this game.
I agree with the principle of what she's saying in general terms, but somitomi actually states that he believes she is town, just has doubts due to recent experience. That's not suspicious, that's just having healthy doubts about someone who he knows can look townie despite being scum. If he'd starting pushing it, that would be a different matter, but the only other apparent evidence of this line of thought was what I interpreted as a joke, saying "TRUST NO-ONE".
Disagree. I interpreted this as scum testing the waters for a reverse-meta read based on Secret Santa. This was a legitimate read, and I backed it up with analysis. See this post
bessie wrote:The same applies to your jokes about my meta/Secret Santa game. This is post #13, so, excluding your confirmation post, Post #9 which was fixing quote tags, and this post, you have “joked” about my meta in 3/10 posts. This is not joking, this is a subtle attempt to keep reminding everyone of the previous game (see also Post #3).
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: Other issues with somitomi's content are fine, but maybe a little stretched (e.g. sleepgate-related comments),
Disagree. This too was a legitimate read, and I backed it up with analysis. See this post
and this post
. I did a complete timeline and analysis of Peaceful Whale’s and somitomi’s activity from the time Suzaku announced the game was going to begin until PW’s and somitomi’s first content posts suspiciously close together (approx 26 hrs total elapsed time). Peaceful Whale didn’t confirm and claimed he didn’t post because he went to bed at 4:00 in the afternoon, he later admitted this was a lie. somitomi continued to “misunderstand” the importance of the timing, even though it was implicitly and explicitly pointed out by me.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: I find it particularly interesting that whilst it's true, somitomi did repeat the joke, it was hardly the sole thing he talked about, or even a significant minority of his content.
Um ok, I guess poking at my meta in 3/10 posts isn’t excessive at all. So, what is the cutoff as to when someone is making a harmless joke, and it becomes testing the water to throw out some suspicion? Is a third enough? Or does it need to be in half their posts? How many times did somitomi have to say “hey bessie is townie but you know she was really good scum in Secret Santa so nuff said” for it to be legitimately suspicious? And while we’re at it, just to be completely clear that I am following the correct procedure, how many times does someone have to say “well you know bessie says she helps newbies but Peaceful Whale was scum so nuff said” before I can consider it suspicious?
And, while we’re on the subject of Peaceful Whale….
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Also, I don't feel like bessie pushed PW anywhere near as much as I remember her doing so.
As much as I’d like to tell you, and flicky,
(no he finally dropped it) to go fly a kite
over this, I acknowledge that you have a legitimate right to bring this up. But I feel that I have no further defense, either you understand what I was trying to do, or you legitimately don't, or you're scum and you are going to use this against me. Unfortunately, in trying to articulate a response for you, I did some more self-analysis, which is never a good thing.
So in my brooding, as this keeps coming up in games, I see my options for the future as follows:
1. Don’t be such a nice person. Lynch newbies that are looking scummy, even if it is obvious they are having trouble and clearly need some advice. Lynch early and often. Don’t offer help because if they’re scum their shit will stick to me. If they’re town shit finds its way and sticks to me anyway, it’s just not worth it. I spend a lot of my limited game time on D1 trying to help these people. I spend the rest of the game defending my actions. So screw them.
2. Continue doing as I do. We need new players or eventually Madge and I are going to be sitting here all by ourselves. And new players keep the game interesting. And I usually like them. And I like helping those that want to learn to play, or just improve their game. I want to improve my game. I ask questions in game or in chat or in Gojoe or by pm of more experienced players all the time, and I appreciate their responses. In my extremely brief stint as a physics teacher I would tell my students that there was no such thing as a dumb question (I’ve also done tech support so I know this isn’t quite
true) and I pretty much live my life by xkcd #1053
. So I try to make this game a positive experience for everyone and I continue to be hopeful whenever I see a new name (I currently have great hopes for Vicarin), even though I’m often disappointed (I was really hoping Liri would give this another shot).
bessie wrote:Interesting, why do you think that the most important thing to me would be proving that I am right?
BoomFrog wrote: I'm so confused about this issue.
See underlined. It might be clear later.
BoomFrog, let me know if you ever figure this out.
3. Accept that I’m not a (1), I’m a (2), and quit signing up for games when I see new names or certain names that I know I will have issues with on the sign up list. Sometimes there’s a new name (from a new account created the same day) on the sign up list. I still hesitate when I see that because experience tells me I may be needed as a replacement (although as of late Madge usually has the replacement end covered). But although I’m setting myself up for a repeat of Shakespeare, where I wanted so much to play that I wept when I died, I’m always by nature looking for today’s lucky ten thousand, and sometimes the stars do align.
Back to Peaceful Whale. I can say a lot, but it would be more personal than productive and would do nothing to move the game forward. The objective evidence there for all that care to read it deeply. I will say that after the self-deprecation I’ve experienced in this game I will not cry when I die. Feel free to try to remove me from this game by whatever means you have available.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:I know she later explained this, as wanting to save obv-scum for later, but this feels really a stretch.
I’ve tried to explain the theory behind this and obviously no one gets it. If you save obvi-scum for MYLO/LYLO, then you have less of a chance for mislynch. I have an odd feeling that I may better be able to discuss this after the game is over if anyone is still interested.
Moving onto D2. Here's bessie's post-hoc justification I mentioned above, for never voting Peaceful Whale:
My evaluation was that if Peaceful Whale was scum, he would be fairly obvious, so if there is another fairly strong candidate, it would make sense to leave the obvious candidate for later. Also, I don’t think that Peaceful Whale would be as dangerous to leave alive as say, scum!Madge.
This just sounds weird, because she had PW as scum most of D1, implying that she thought he was fairly obvious, not that he would become fairly obvious later. Note the subtle difference there - either 1) she didn't really have much confidence that PW was scum, but thought he might become clearer as the game went on (which doesn't really add up given that he was second-likeliest scum in both her lists), or 2) scum!bessie early D1 felt like he would become obvious as scum, and therefore she needed to distance herself.
Interesting how I also discussed this
at the top of this very page.
bessie wrote:I still think it was a miscalculation to lynch him instead of Madge on D1 because I think it more likely Peaceful Whale would have slipped and revealed his scum partners (then say an experienced player like Madge, were she scum) but no one else sees my point and I’ve already argued this one out. So anyway if there’s something useful I can’t find it.
jimbobmacdoodle wrote:Also, she had said basically nothing about BoomFrog up to the point where she posted her updated list.
The exact moment I turned on BoomFrog and the reason why has been extremely well documented by me probably a half a dozen times. At least. You should have seen the reasons as part of your quite extensive reread of me. Or are you only interested in building a scum case?
jimbobmacdoodle wrote: As pointed out by flicky, bessie's logic on finding LaserGuy and I suspicious for halving the lynch pool, and limiting it to a pool including ourselves seems weirdly thought-out - "It is beneficial to scum to narrow the pool to a pool that doesn’t contain scum" contradicts her own theory, since that was precisely not the case in her theory.
My case on this is also extensively well documented, and I’m sure you saw this too. You almost immediately found a reason to eliminate LaserGuy from your lynch pool; LaserGuy put you last (of 4) in his lynch order.
BoomFrog wrote:Her case on BoomFrog eventually shows up, several posts into the day, and it's okay, although hardly definitively-must-come-from-town.
Ummm, are you seriously
accusing me of being TOO EASY on BoomFrog?
I'm going to need to leave this re-read here, part way into D2
, since I need to get to bed, given an early start tomorrow. As I'm sure is clear, I'm not feeling happy about bessie's D1 and early D2 content.
I’m looking forward to refuting you.
Ninja'd by LaserGuy. But that's more than two hours on jimbob already. The rest of you will have to wait your turn.