Hangafia - Game over - Perfect Town win.

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quintopia
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby quintopia » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:20 am UTC

Yes that thought is naive. A single good person in power is more likely to wield it for good, while a single bad person is more likely to wield it for evil. This is the reason democracy came about as a compromise solution after all. Three ways around the scum bandwagoning issue:

1) require a quorum for the vote. if 3/4 of the players have to vote, then we are sure to have a town majority voting (right?) and then the townspeople will be able to exercise caution about jumping on bandwagons keeping the issue you pose in mind
2) Rich nominates 3 candidates and we vote between those. scum!Rich has an incentive not to choose scum candidates since his death will lay a heavy FOS on whomever he picks if he turns scum when he dies.

I see no reason not to go for both of these at once. In fact, I'm strongly in favor of it. It's something to vote about that doesn't get anyone dead, and votes are sure to yield useful information!

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby quintopia » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:21 am UTC

EBWOP: s/three/two/

I realized the third one (secret ballots) was impracticable, but forgot to revise that sentence.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Aardvarki » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:21 am UTC

Vote: Latar-oh wait... *hic*

Hi again to my old friends, and nice to meet you to the folks I haven't played with before. Sorry I'm late to the party, I'm on vacation IRL at the moment and didn't see the role PM email - for the sake of information, my vacation lasts until July 28th. I'm going to try to be as active as possible, but more than likely will be less active than I usually am in games (but more active than I have been the past couple years). I'll try my best to make quality posts, but I doubt I'll be doing quite as in-depth analyses as I may have done in the past. I'm also coming into this mostly flavor-blind, as I've only seen the first of the Hangover movies, and that was a long time ago. On the other hand, I'm most certainly not Dr Ug mod-blind - and I tend to lean towards the "this is going to be an insane clustertruck of insanity" side.

I don't really have a read on the RR thing, my first reaction is that it leans towny just because "generate discussion" tends to lean towards town. However, that's an easy one to claim, and then rely on the slight town lead to try to avoid lynch, so really I can see it going either way. Van's SK-with-daychat comment feels consistent, and an SK tends to lean towards town early on, but then again SKs also want to avoid detection...

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby quintopia » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:22 am UTC

Actually, it's not impracticable.

3) We put our votes in spoilers, and while the scum have no reason not to read them, the townspeople can agree not to read them in order to not be influenced by bandwagoning.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Van » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:43 am UTC

quintopia wrote:Yes that thought is naive. A single good person in power is more likely to wield it for good, while a single bad person is more likely to wield it for evil.
Yes, and choosing who RR uses it on doesn't influence this at all. Look - it's practically a given that RR actually has a daychat ability, and regardless of who he talks to, they are overwhelmingly likely to truthfully report that he did/did not speak to them. The only cases where this doesn't occur are extremely weird edge cases (RR is lying AND is a jester, his target is a jester, RR's target is a lyncher for RR, etc...).

My tl;dr: Yes, you can avoid the absolute worst outcomes by putting it to a vote. I believe that the worst outcomes are so unlikely that we can essentially ignore them.
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby quintopia » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:49 am UTC

You have no comment on the likelihood of a vote leading to more information in and of itself?

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Carlington » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:59 am UTC

Hello hello! I am here! I assumed this game would have confirms and then it didn't and got away from me a little. I've just read through (before bed last night and a little bit just now on the bus to work). By the by, when I was seen as last active 3 minutes ago, it was just after 2am my time, and I don't like making posts in mafia threads when I'm not properly conscious. I'm on the bus to work now, so I'm posting from a phone. I'll finish work in about five and a half hours, but tonight is dumpling night so I may or may not get a post in until a little later, around probably lunchtime UTC (I also don't like posting from my phone, as having multiple tabs is unwieldy).
I pretty much agree with quintopia regarding the whole RR daychat thing (assuming we don't give it to me, since I am clearly the towniest town who ever towned). We should be able to work it out so that mathematically we have a guaranteed town majority voting before accepting any vote, which fixes the scum influence problem.
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Sungura » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:05 am UTC

This RR claim has lots of ins and outs. Really it all boils down to either 1) telling the truth 2) telling partial truth (which has many variations of how much truth it could be) and 3) totally lying. Totally lying is kinda out of the question because we'd know the lie immediately, unless of course he is town, chats with scum, and the scum decides to claim he is lying, so therefore we lynch a townie. So my brain is already running down all the WIFOM paths this could take but at least something interesting is happening. I am inclined to believe him for now, but I tend to believe claims until evidence arises contrary. I am fine with Nebuduck being the person he daychats with, Nebu likes doing fun and/or crazy things so I don't find their offer out of the ordinary.

As for cycoden meta - I remember them being very quiet in most games. Not at all surprised we haven't heard.
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Madge » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:54 am UTC

I'm also happy for RR to choose his own target; I think that's perfectly logical for the reasons I think Quintopia has stated. (if he's town then town chooses unmitigated by scum; if he's scum then he probably has the power anyway to make a claim like this, and his target will get suspicion on them if he flips scum, which is great for WIFOM, but at least gives the cop/s I can only assume we have in a 25 player game someone to target)
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby SPACKlick » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:38 am UTC

weiyaoli wrote: I'd probably choose kalira since though I liked Nebudeck's post after his post volunteering for considering pretty much any obvious scenarios, kalira was the first one to question the claim and its motivations. Kinda arbitrary to be honest, but I don't really have any better reasoning for any other targets.

I've started a short tracker for opinions so far on the target, think I've got everyone who has posted an opinion:

SPACKlick - _infina_ for being the first one to support someone else (though it was actually moody :P)
I love your reaseon for chosing Kalira and have no exception to that. Thanks for the tracker. Moody while he voted for someone else, voted for Nebuduck, who I excluded for openly wanting it.
As a coupe of people have said my name I think I've worked out what level of information I'd be willing to reveal to RR if given day chat and what from his day chat I'd reveal to the thread.

I know people have called me a bastard for this before, but Carlington's long list of reasons why he was unable to post set off my scumdar something chronic. EGMEOY upgraded to FOS Carlington.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Nebuduck » Wed Jul 08, 2015 7:57 am UTC

Good morning all. Boy oh boy, have we been active overnight (Timezones are weird, so I refuse to believe in them)

So here are my thoughts on choosing RR's target:

- He shouldn't get to choose his own. If he's scum and chooses scum, that gives them a huge advantage at least in day 1 (they can co-ordinate strategy). Although this is mitigated by the fact that I really don't think RR is scum (if he were, he would have chosen a scum buddy already and not told us his power). We should mitigate that risk further by choosing for him. I also don't think it's better in any way for him to choose himself.

- There are risks involved with being RR's target. For example even assuming RR is just vanilla townie + daychat, whoever we choose to be RR's target makes them a target for scum. They immediately have more information than the other players, and all else being equal, are more of a risk to the scum. So if we nominated a super-cop to be RR's target, that raises the risk of said super-cop being NK'd on night 1. That's why I think potential targets should be voted for from a list of volunteers, and why I have volunteered - if I'm NK'd tonight, I don't think it is detrimental to our position too much. However, if SPACKlick or kalira or anyone else want to volunteer, I'm very happy for them to take that risk.

- I don't think we should have secret ballots. Mainly because I think it's more fun if things aren't secret.

Thoughts on other things:

Sungura wrote:Nebu likes doing fun and/or crazy things so I don't find their offer out of the ordinary.

This is mostly true, I'm afraid. I don't see the point in playing mafia carefully.

weiyaoli wrote:I'd probably choose kalira since though I liked Nebudeck's post after his post volunteering for considering pretty much any obvious scenarios, kalira was the first one to question the claim and its motivations.

It's Nebuduck. Or Nebu. And I get angry at typos.

SPACKlick wrote:I know people have called me a bastard for this before, but Carlington's long list of reasons why he was unable to post set off my scumdar something chronic. EGMEOY upgraded to FOS Carlington.

I agree. Such scum.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Nebuduck » Wed Jul 08, 2015 8:40 am UTC

Also, I'm not familiar with EGMEOY - Either Give Me Evidence Or You?

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby SPACKlick » Wed Jul 08, 2015 9:08 am UTC

Yeah, umm, it's a typo which will make you angry I hear. EGMEOY would be "Eye've got my eye on you" so should clearly by IGMEOY. but I theink EGMEOYD (either give me evidence or you die) could turn out to be useful in endgame situations :D

I think people discussing set up are massively underestimating the number of scum and the number of factions. It would not be unreasonable to guess at 9 or 10 or so player's who's alignment is not entirely with town. Whether than includes a lyncher with a specific lynch target or a couple of SK's or a Jester. Looking back at Dr Ug's games I get the sense he's not above giving some weird role sets out.

On the RR issue I would be most unhappy with him choosing his own target as it maximizes the damage Scum!RR could do. All this being said, I am currently of the opinion RR is town and therefore probably vanilla+chat.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Dr Ug » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:45 am UTC

Votals:

michaelandjimi - 1 (quintopia)
Carlington - 1 (Nebuduck)

14 to lynch.

Did anyone else feel the room spinning?
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby SPACKlick » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:56 am UTC

Dr Ug, you missed my vote for Freezeblade, top of page 2

I was going to ask Freezeblade something before I unvoted but i don't have a clue what it was. Freezeblade, what role would you least like to see come up in this game?

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby weiyaoli » Wed Jul 08, 2015 11:57 am UTC

Nebuduck wrote:
weiyaoli wrote:I'd probably choose kalira since though I liked Nebudeck's post after his post volunteering for considering pretty much any obvious scenarios, kalira was the first one to question the claim and its motivations.

It's Nebuduck. Or Nebu. And I get angry at typos.


Whoops, sorry! Don't even know how I made that typo, since I went back and checked what your name was to make sure I got it right :oops:

SPACKlick wrote:
weiyaoli wrote:
SPACKlick - _infina_ for being the first one to support someone else (though it was actually moody :P)
I love your reaseon for chosing Kalira and have no exception to that. Thanks for the tracker. Moody while he voted for someone else, voted for Nebuduck, who I excluded for openly wanting it.

I mean, I thought it was probably just a mistake the first time, but:

Spoiler:
moody7277 wrote:Finally, Nebu seems like a good choice for recipient as he's been the most chatty so far.


_infina_ wrote:So, as for RR's power, I am not opposed to Nebuduck being the guinea pig for us, as they are one of the more active players right now.


infina did support Nebu for the power slightly less strongly ("not opposed"), but he did also vote for Nebuduck. It would be bizarre (since this was stuff easily verified looking back at the actual posts) for this to be some nefarious plot to elect infina to be the target or something, so I'll give you the benefit of the doubt for now.

Sungura wrote:Totally lying is kinda out of the question because we'd know the lie immediately, unless of course he is town, chats with scum, and the scum decides to claim he is lying, so therefore we lynch a townie.

That would end up being okay, assuming the flip of RR told us enough to say that the target was lying because we would vig(assuming there is one)/lynch scum. The only downside would be if we end up choosing a jester, because the exact above scenario will occur and we will waste two lynches and pretty much two days having done not a lot- though I guess since I seem to recall jesters win by being lynched and not being vigged, we could maybe hope that if a vig exists they could vig the liar?

quintopia wrote:Yes that thought is naive. A single good person in power is more likely to wield it for good, while a single bad person is more likely to wield it for evil. This is the reason democracy came about as a compromise solution after all. Three ways around the scum bandwagoning issue:

1) require a quorum for the vote. if 3/4 of the players have to vote, then we are sure to have a town majority voting (right?) and then the townspeople will be able to exercise caution about jumping on bandwagons keeping the issue you pose in mind
2) Rich nominates 3 candidates and we vote between those. scum!Rich has an incentive not to choose scum candidates since his death will lay a heavy FOS on whomever he picks if he turns scum when he dies.

I see no reason not to go for both of these at once. In fact, I'm strongly in favor of it. It's something to vote about that doesn't get anyone dead, and votes are sure to yield useful information!

Whilst I agree with a vote, I don't think simply requiring a quorum would get around scum bandwagoning. You can draw a clear parallel to a lynch vote where pretty much 3/4 (actually everyone should be voting at the end of day) of people will end up voting (so a town majority will have voiced an opinion), but the whole game of mafia is for the scum to try and find mislynches and misdirect wagons within that. My reason for agreeing with a vote though, is that it'll give us some useful VCA information once RR/his target flips later on in the game.
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Dr Ug » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:09 pm UTC

SPACKlick wrote:Dr Ug, you missed my vote for Freezeblade, top of page 2
Indeed I did.
Please place "Votes" on separate lines to avoid any being missed

Votals:

michaelandjimi - 1 (quintopia)
Freezeblade - 1 (SPACKlick)
Carlington - 1 (Nebuduck)

14 to lynch.
Where did my old signature go? :(

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby RoadieRich » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:31 pm UTC

weiyaoli wrote:
quintopia wrote:Yes that thought is naive. A single good person in power is more likely to wield it for good, while a single bad person is more likely to wield it for evil. This is the reason democracy came about as a compromise solution after all. Three ways around the scum bandwagoning issue:

1) require a quorum for the vote. if 3/4 of the players have to vote, then we are sure to have a town majority voting (right?) and then the townspeople will be able to exercise caution about jumping on bandwagons keeping the issue you pose in mind
2) Rich nominates 3 candidates and we vote between those. scum!Rich has an incentive not to choose scum candidates since his death will lay a heavy FOS on whomever he picks if he turns scum when he dies.

I see no reason not to go for both of these at once. In fact, I'm strongly in favor of it. It's something to vote about that doesn't get anyone dead, and votes are sure to yield useful information!

Whilst I agree with a vote, I don't think simply requiring a quorum would get around scum bandwagoning. You can draw a clear parallel to a lynch vote where pretty much 3/4 (actually everyone should be voting at the end of day) of people will end up voting (so a town majority will have voiced an opinion), but the whole game of mafia is for the scum to try and find mislynches and misdirect wagons within that. My reason for agreeing with a vote though, is that it'll give us some useful VCA information once RR/his target flips later on in the game.


Knowing Dr Ug's games, there's likely to be multiple scum factions, rather than just one big one. This will should restrict their ability to bandwagon, so I agree with the quorum idea: it might reveal interesting patterns to later examine. Especially as it's an additional vote prior to N1, before scum can collectively get their asses on the same page - although knowing I have a daychat ability, it wouldn't surprise me that other people have day abilities, either.

Dr Ug wrote:Did anyone else feel the room spinning?


That's in modvoice, rather than just flavor. It likely indicates someone used some sort of day power.
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby RoadieRich » Wed Jul 08, 2015 12:51 pm UTC

RoadieRich wrote:
Dr Ug wrote:Did anyone else feel the room spinning?

That's in modvoice, rather than just flavor. It likely indicates someone used some sort of day power.

Warning: unprocessed braindump under spoiler.
Spoiler:
If I was playing scum, and someone gave the players control of an ability, I'd want to do anything I can to subvert or disrupt use of that ability, as I know the combined other factions have a majority over mine.

This means either swapping or blocking the claimed player. If I'm in a scum faction, I have at least one power that could be useful: a kill. It's up to the mod whether the scum's kill is swappable (I'd say it isn't: it's intrinsic to the faction rather than a specific player, but there could be other kills in the faction).

I'm not sure a roleblock would have an announcement like that, and, in fact, a role switch was the first thing I thought of when I saw the modpost.

So at least one faction, if they're either able to daychat or aware of eachother's powers, are likely to swap stance on who should be chosen.

If it was a switch, and they have switched my power with a kill, they'll be adamantly against selecting someone from their own faction. If I've just been roleblocked, they'll also be against selecting someone from their faction, as I'll try to use the ability, report that I can't, probably get lynched, then my target will also be lynched when I flip town.

Similarly if they have a "tagalong" power of some sort, but I'm not sure that matches up with the room spinning.
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby SPACKlick » Wed Jul 08, 2015 1:15 pm UTC

I am pro quorum and pro voting.

Can we get confirmation from

Dr ug was the room spinning was more than just flavour text?

Because I agree with RR that roleswap or alignments swap would make sense that way and that would mess a lot of things up.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Minestrone » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:12 pm UTC

I am pro voting but also pro voting for either volunteers or nominees, because I think the voting would get too confusing otherwise.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Nebuduck » Wed Jul 08, 2015 2:22 pm UTC

SPACKlick wrote:Dr ug was the room spinning was more than just flavour text?


The timing of a (spoilered, and hence unread) post Dr Ug put in the discussion thread is about 40 minutes after the room spinning comment. Which makes me guess it is more than just flavour text.

Minestrone wrote:I am pro voting but also pro voting for either volunteers or nominees, because I think the voting would get too confusing otherwise.

I'm bored of this discussion of what we should do. I think we should get together a list of about 5 volunteers/nominees, and then vote from them. I'm much more strongly in favour of volunteers, since this could end up being a risky endeavour.

So, lets get together a list of volunteers (someone who hasn't volunteered should be in charge of this), and then just vote on 'em.

It'd be nice to have this subplot resolved before long...

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby Azrael001 » Wed Jul 08, 2015 3:11 pm UTC

Minestrone wrote:
frogman wrote:The target is a cop and lets RR know about this, and RR has reason to believe it. RR is not killed at night, due to a doctor or some other similar role. Now both RR and whomever RR chooses to speak with the next day could possibly know that the first-day target is a cop. Later, the target decides to reveal themselves as a cop to divulge information about the mafia. RR and any of his subsequent targets could have previously known that the first-day target is a cop, and vouch for them. Therefore, the mafia should kill off the target as soon as possible.


If I was RR's target I probably wouldn't want to share my role with them in the first place since their towniness isn't guaranteed, and even then, if I was town!RR who got role information from someone I wouldn't want to share it with someone else whose alignment I'd have no idea about. This line of reasoning doesn't sit right with me.
It didn't sit right with me last night, but I was tired and dehydrated, so I waited until I was awake to think more. It still doesn't sit right to me. Suggesting incredibly bad strategy for town power roles is sufficient for a day one vote in my opinion.

Vote: Frogman

As for the target of the day chat, it doesn't really make much of a difference to me. The claim itself seems vaguely town, but the suggestions as to what to do should the chosen person not confirm seem like the thoughts of a jester of some kind.
23111

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby quintopia » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:27 pm UTC

So if we're going to nominate volunteers, I hereby nominate the three most active posters in this thread (other than myself if I should happen to be one). If we're going to have an experiment, nominating an active player at least guarantees an answer soonest. I'm already late to work or I'd go through and figure out who I'd just nominated. Could someone do me a solid and figure that out for me pretty please?

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby quintopia » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:28 pm UTC

EBWOP: If I've nominated someone who doesn't want to, I won't object to your turning down the nomination.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby _infina_ » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:38 pm UTC

quintopia wrote:So if we're going to nominate volunteers, I hereby nominate the three most active posters in this thread (other than myself if I should happen to be one). If we're going to have an experiment, nominating an active player at least guarantees an answer soonest. I'm already late to work or I'd go through and figure out who I'd just nominated. Could someone do me a solid and figure that out for me pretty please?

Looks like currently from a quick glance that it would be Nebuduck, SPACKlick, and yourself. I have excluded RR since it would be useless to nominate him to use his power on...

I also felt slightly odd about frogman's post, mainly because it seems to be a long text of nothing new. I am not going to vote on it now, but I will
FoS frogman
and wait to see if the feeling gets any stronger.

As for the whole claim, while it could be useful for any faction, I am still currently neutral on RR. I doubt that any information that we gather from using it will sway me in one direction or the other on him.
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby kalira » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:39 pm UTC

As far as RR's chat, I'm torn between whether he should reveal who he talks to or not. On the one hand, frogman is right that it might make that person a target (though I have some serious issues with his scenario, and I'm slightly worried it sounds like he might be scum directing his scummates to target RR's chat buddy), but on the other hand, town knowing who RR is talking to gives us information. Of course, if we know who he's talking to, there's really not too much point to the side chat other than to confirm RR has it.

Des Dr Ug usually not answer mod questions? 'Cause this question I posed onthe first page has yet to be answered.

As it has been a question in many recent games, figure we should ask sooner rather than later:
How will tied votals at end of Day be dealt with?


So, I noticed something weird a little while ago. I just looked at the list of players for basically the first time... That is in no way the order we signed up. That has to be on purpose, right? There's no way the mod would go out of their way to re-order the signup list for no reason. Question is, what purpose does it serve? Also, was it screwy like that from the start, or not until the room spinning thing? Thoughts? Am I reading too much into this? Room spinning in bold definitely does suggest action rather than simply flavor, as others have pointed out.

List as of this moment (spoilered), just in case something changes on it later...

Spoiler:
1 ConMan
2 michaelandjimmi
3 moody7277
4 _infina_
5 ElectricHaze
6 Jar'O'Jam
7 Minestrone
8 madge
9 Frogman
10 sungura
11 Nebuduck
12 Van
13 kalira
14 cycoden
15 megatriorchis
16 VectorZero
17 quintopia
18 MasterOfAll
19 SPACKlick
20 Azrael001
21 ThinkSweet
22 RoadieRich
23 Freezeblade
24 weiyaoli
25 Carlington
26 Aardvarki


Does anyone happen to remember the list being different when we started? Okay, I'm not crazy. Things have definitely been switched.

Google cached page (yay internet) from Jul 7, 2015 02:59:11 GMT lists:
Spoiler:
1 Azrael001
2 Carlington
3 Nebuduck
4 cycoden (has it really been four years?!)
5 ElectricHaze
6 megatriorchis
7 Aardvarki
8 madge
9 Freezeblade
10 Minestrone
11 ThinkSweet
12 VectorZero
13 ConMan
14 kalira
15 SPACKlick
16 _infina_
17 Frogman
18 quintopia
19 weiyaoli
20 sungura
21 moody7277
22 RoadieRich
23 MasterOfAll
24 Jar'O'Jam
25 Van
26 michaelandjimmi


I want thoughts, people.
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby RoadieRich » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:45 pm UTC

_infina_ wrote:I have excluded RR since it would be useless to nominate him to use his power on...


I can just imagine that. "I did send myself a PM. And I received it too. I must be telling the truth."

Or, if my brain dump is at least slightly accurate: "I did send myself a PM. I didn't receive it. Urk."

Perhaps I should talk to myself, see if it gives us some clue as to what my the room spinning was...
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby MasterOfAll » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:47 pm UTC

I can confirm that the list of players has been reordered more than once now (yesterday when I looked at it I was in position 1). So it's not just the room spinning that changed it.

I have no idea what it means, though. Maybe someone's role is impacted by the order of the list, but mine surely isn't.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby weiyaoli » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:51 pm UTC

kalira wrote:So, I noticed something weird a little while ago. I just looked at the list of players for basically the first time... That is in no way the order we signed up. That has to be on purpose, right? There's no way the mod would go out of their way to re-order the signup list for no reason. Question is, what purpose does it serve? Also, was it screwy like that from the start, or not until the room spinning thing? Thoughts? Am I reading too much into this? Room spinning in bold definitely does suggest action rather than simply flavor, as others have pointed out.

I want thoughts, people.


Good spot, it's also not the order we signed up in, which was as follows:

Spoiler:
Players:
1. Azrael001
2. MasterOfAll
3. Frogman
4. Van (vote: Not A Raptor)
5. cycoden (has it really been four years?!)
6. madge (Don't worry SpackLick, I've been here going on three years and I don't remember anyone here either!)
7. Aardvarki (why are 18 and 19 missing!? Also, holy crap I haven't been here in ages!)
8. ConMan (I'm more excited than I should be for this)
9. Freezeblade (Oohhh, this'll be fun)
10. Carlington
11. moody7277
12. megatriorchis
13. _infina_ (I am back, too...vote Dr Ug)
14. Minestrone
15. ThinkSweet (thanks for asking me back, haven't played in soooo long!)
16. Jar'O'Jam (don't leave without meeeeeee)
17. RoadieRich (yes, I'll probably die night one, but wth?)
18. ElectricHaze
19. VectorZero (reset password)
20. weiyaoli
21. SPACKlick (too new to have heard of you)
22. kalira (holy jeebus, that's a lot of people -- still think I'm going to keep my vote on SPACKlick)
23. Reserved
24. quintopia (hey i know some of those oldies...hi mega! what are you up to these days?)
25: Nebuduck (I seem to remember this being like the Sopranos, right?) (also, I added a role for myself)
26. Reserved

Replacements
1. Vytron (signed up before SDK so might as well be first replacement)
2. SDK (Wow! Kinda want to be the 24th player, but I'll just do this instead)
3. Murrin (I should probably take a break from mafia games, but it's hard to resist a large, complex game, so I'll be a replacement)
4. michaelandjimi (Can I put in a number 5?)


And I seem to remember still being in position 20 when the game started (as I signed up in) as well as michaelandjimi being position 26 (though I'm not 100% on this). I have no idea what it could mean though, nothing has happened to me so far, and my role definitely doesn't involve the order of the players at all. Is the shuffle random, or is there an order to it that people can spot?
And you thought I was crazy...

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby SPACKlick » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:52 pm UTC

I had noticed and was trying to work out what it meant, since it is now under discussion in the thread. the first change was around 1:20 yesterday and the second 1:20 today around when Dr Ug mentioned the room spinning

Code: Select all

NUM|.   Sign Up........|.   New List 1.....|.   New List 2.....|.
1..|.   Azrael001......|.   MasterOfAll....|.   ConMan.........|.
2..|.   MasterOfAll....|.   ConMan.........|.   michaelandjimmi|.
3..|.   Frogman........|.   quintopia......|.   moody7277......|.
4..|.   Van............|.   cycoden........|.   _infina_.......|.
5..|.   cycoden........|.   Van............|.   ElectricHaze...|.
6..|.   madge..........|.   VectorZero.....|.   Jar'O'Jam......|.
7..|.   Aardvarki......|.   kalira.........|.   Minestrone.....|.
8..|.   ConMan.........|.   sungura........|.   madge..........|.
9..|.   Freezeblade....|.   madge..........|.   Frogman........|.
10.|.   Carlington.....|.   michaelandjimmi|.   sungura........|.
11.|.   moody7277......|.   Nebuduck.......|.   Nebuduck.......|.
12.|.   megatriorchis..|.   Minestrone.....|.   Van............|.
13.|.   _infina_.......|.   Aardvarki......|.   kalira.........|.
14.|.   Minestrone.....|.   ThinkSweet.....|.   cycoden........|.
15.|.   ThinkSweet.....|.   moody7277......|.   megatriorchis..|.
16.|.   Jar'O'Jam......|.   Frogman........|.   VectorZero.....|.
17.|.   RoadieRich.....|.   Azrael001......|.   quintopia......|.
18.|.   ElectricHaze...|.   Carlington.....|.   MasterOfAll....|.
19.|.   VectorZero.....|.   _infina_.......|.   SPACKlick......|.
20.|.   weiyaoli.......|.   RoadieRich.....|.   Azrael001......|.
21.|.   SPACKlick......|.   Freezeblade....|.   ThinkSweet.....|.
22.|.   kalira.........|.   megatriorchis..|.   RoadieRich.....|.
23.|.   RESERVED.......|.   Jar'O'Jam......|.   Freezeblade....|.
24.|.   quintopia......|.   ElectricHaze...|.   weiyaoli.......|.
25.|.   Nebuduck.......|.   weiyaoli.......|.   Carlington.....|.
26.|.   RESERVED.......|.   cycoden........|.   Aardvarki......|.


Of Note, I am missing from the second list there and cycoden is on it twice. This leads me to conclude the cycoden has a power which did something to me for 24 hours or someone else has a power that did some thing to me and cycoden for 24 hours. Googling hasn't brought up any powers or flavour that would explain it. I believe there was also a third list between sign up and the New List 1 because Nebu made the comment that Carlington was near the top(not true on any of these lists) and MasterOfAll had been moved to a reserved position (23rd I believe) causing me to believe he was one of the late reservists.

unvote
vote cycoden

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby kalira » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:57 pm UTC

Spack, the list I got from the Google cached page above should fill in that third list you're talking about -- Carlington is #2 on it, and MoA is #23.
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby SPACKlick » Wed Jul 08, 2015 4:58 pm UTC

EBWOP, When I say around 1:20 yesterday I mean I know I was at 15 at or about 11:15 yesterday and I noticed it had changed around 13:25. And today I know think it had the same list around 8:00 this morning and didn't when I first checked, after the room spin, around 13:35. I have therefore assumed some sort of 24 hour power. It could have been unrelated to the roomspin but that doesn't seem likely. Dr Ug was posting in the thread within both those windows.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby frogman » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:08 pm UTC

People seem to be suspicious of my caution. While I agree that the scenario I wrote down is poorly thought-out, the point still stands that in my experience private communication in a Mafia game is incredibly powerful, and that it makes any target of RoadieRich's abilities more of a threat to scum factions, and therefore more likely to be targeted than not if their identity is publicly known. Is this controversial?

Also:

I also felt slightly odd about frogman's post, mainly because it seems to be a long text of nothing new.


Could you elaborate on this? I didn't think the argument that I put forward had been raised before, unless I read the thread incorrectly.

EDIT: ninja'd twice, no change in content.
yeah yeah yeah

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby SPACKlick » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:10 pm UTC

That makes this complete for what we know

Code: Select all

NUM|.   Sign Up........|.   Original Post..|.   New List 1.....|.   New List 2.....|.
1..|.   Azrael001......|.   Azrael001......|.   MasterOfAll....|.   ConMan.........|.
2..|.   MasterOfAll....|.   Carlington.....|.   ConMan.........|.   michaelandjimmi|.
3..|.   Frogman........|.   Nebuduck.......|.   quintopia......|.   moody7277......|.
4..|.   Van............|.   cycoden........|.   cycoden........|.   _infina_.......|.
5..|.   cycoden........|.   ElectricHaze...|.   Van............|.   ElectricHaze...|.
6..|.   madge..........|.   megatriorchis..|.   VectorZero.....|.   Jar'O'Jam......|.
7..|.   Aardvarki......|.   Aardvarki......|.   kalira.........|.   Minestrone.....|.
8..|.   ConMan.........|.   madge..........|.   sungura........|.   madge..........|.
9..|.   Freezeblade....|.   Freezeblade....|.   madge..........|.   Frogman........|.
10.|.   Carlington.....|.   Minestrone.....|.   michaelandjimmi|.   sungura........|.
11.|.   moody7277......|.   ThinkSweet.....|.   Nebuduck.......|.   Nebuduck.......|.
12.|.   megatriorchis..|.   VectorZero.....|.   Minestrone.....|.   Van............|.
13.|.   _infina_.......|.   ConMan.........|.   Aardvarki......|.   kalira.........|.
14.|.   Minestrone.....|.   kalira.........|.   ThinkSweet.....|.   cycoden........|.
15.|.   ThinkSweet.....|.   SPACKlick......|.   moody7277......|.   megatriorchis..|.
16.|.   Jar'O'Jam......|.   _infina_.......|.   Frogman........|.   VectorZero.....|.
17.|.   RoadieRich.....|.   Frogman........|.   Azrael001......|.   quintopia......|.
18.|.   ElectricHaze...|.   quintopia......|.   Carlington.....|.   MasterOfAll....|.
19.|.   VectorZero.....|.   weiyaoli.......|.   _infina_.......|.   SPACKlick......|.
20.|.   weiyaoli.......|.   sungura........|.   RoadieRich.....|.   Azrael001......|.
21.|.   SPACKlick......|.   moody7277......|.   Freezeblade....|.   ThinkSweet.....|.
22.|.   kalira.........|.   RoadieRich.....|.   megatriorchis..|.   RoadieRich.....|.
23.|.   RESERVED.......|.   MasterOfAll....|.   Jar'O'Jam......|.   Freezeblade....|.
24.|.   quintopia......|.   Jar'O'Jam......|.   ElectricHaze...|.   weiyaoli.......|.
25.|.   Nebuduck.......|.   Van............|.   weiyaoli.......|.   Carlington.....|.
26.|.   RESERVED.......|.   michaelandjimmi|.   cycoden........|.   Aardvarki......|.

The forum Didn't tell me Kalira Ninja'd me before my last post and I hadn't spotted that list.

Aardvarki, Azrael and Freezeblade didn't move the first time. Cycoden didn't move the second time and was the only one. Nebuduck didn't move the last time. Electric Haze, Madge and Roadie were put back in place the last time. There is something scum going on here and unless I've made a massive mistake I've been targeted with something.

The expected number of people in the same place on any two lists is 1, we have 3 in two comparisons. or 8 across 6 comparisons. It could be random, it's within variance but still a little suspect.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby freezeblade » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:14 pm UTC

SPACKlick wrote:Dr Ug, you missed my vote for Freezeblade, top of page 2

I was going to ask Freezeblade something before I unvoted but i don't have a clue what it was. Freezeblade, what role would you least like to see come up in this game?


A recruiting cult is what I would least like to see come up in this game. *shudder*

I'm confused by the "room spinning" comment in modvoice. There's nothing in my role PM about it though.
^The above was written prevoius to the post where people figured out the list had changed, I was majorily ninja'd

Now that we know what that's about, I'm not sure, does this mean that cryoden at that moment had two votes, or perhaps just a slight mod error?

another ninja: I suspect there's a good number of daytime powers that are at work here.
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby RoadieRich » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:19 pm UTC

kalira wrote:[s]Does anyone happen to remember the list being different when we started? Okay, I'm not crazy. Things have definitely been switched.

I want thoughts, people.


That could be what the room spinning was...

Looking at the lists, ElectricHaze, Madge and myself have not moved.

List with relative movements:
Spoiler:
1 ConMan -12
2 michaelandjimmi -24
3 moody7277 -18
4 _infina_ -12
5 ElectricHaze 0
6 Jar'O'Jam -18
7 Minestrone -3
8 madge 0
9 Frogman -8
10 sungura -10
11 Nebuduck +8
12 Van -13
13 kalira -1
14 cycoden +10
15 megatriorchis +9
16 VectorZero +4
17 quintopia -1
18 MasterOfAll -5
19 SPACKlick +4
20 Azrael001 +19
21 ThinkSweet +10
22 RoadieRich 0
23 Freezeblade +14
24 weiyaoli +5
25 Carlington +23
26 Aardvarki +19


Looks like a relatively random shuffle with those three exceptions.

My suspicion is that I have had my role swapped with one of ElectricHaze or Madge, by the other.


Ninja'd.

If there's been more changes, it kind of invalidates my thoughts somewhat.

I will say that it feels like real time limited powers would be extremely unusual in a game without strict deadlines.
73, de KE8BSL loc EN26.

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby _infina_ » Wed Jul 08, 2015 5:45 pm UTC

frogman wrote:
I also felt slightly odd about frogman's post, mainly because it seems to be a long text of nothing new.


Could you elaborate on this? I didn't think the argument that I put forward had been raised before, unless I read the thread incorrectly.


Both Nebuduck and weiyaoli (I can't believe I just spelled that correctly from memory...) had put forward highly similar arguments more than 10 posts previous to yours.
Spoiler:
keozen wrote:It took us exactly 3 pages to turn a discussion of a loved children's book series into smut...
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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby frogman » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:18 pm UTC

_infina_ wrote:
frogman wrote:
I also felt slightly odd about frogman's post, mainly because it seems to be a long text of nothing new.


Could you elaborate on this? I didn't think the argument that I put forward had been raised before, unless I read the thread incorrectly.


Both Nebuduck and weiyaoli (I can't believe I just spelled that correctly from memory...) had put forward highly similar arguments more than 10 posts previous to yours.


I must have awful reading comprehension, then, because I can't find a place where either player talks about any danger to the daychat target.
yeah yeah yeah

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Re: Hangafia - Day 1. Where are we?

Postby SPACKlick » Wed Jul 08, 2015 6:45 pm UTC

I'm with Frogman on this, can you point to specific quotes _Infina_ because I think Frogman was making an additional point about the risk to the receiver.


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