Cobalts & Rubies [The End: Faltering trust]

For your simulated organized crime needs.

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maident
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Cobalts & Rubies [The End: Faltering trust]

Postby maident » Thu Feb 26, 2015 8:52 pm UTC

Cobalts & Rubies
co-modded by Diemo

Image

Deep in the dark caverns, sounds of digging could be heard. A new excavation had begun, to extract the fabled gems of power. These held within them the right to rule over all of Xkcdia. With such a delicate task, it was decided that only a small elite team should be sent down. The team successfully extracted both and everybody celebrated. However, it was soon apparent that not all those that entered could be trusted.

The mines have started to collapse; the way back to the surface is blocked! To make matters worse, if the cobalt and ruby are not recovered, they will be lost forever, leaving Xkcdia in anarchy. But who to trust? Saboteurs are in your midst! Should the cobalt and ruby fall to their hands, all will be lost. Thus, it has been decided that a vote will be held to determine the distribution ever day of both gems.


Welcome to C&R! Although this is loosely based on Sabotuer, no previous knowledge of the game is necessary to play. Please read the rules carefully and let me know if there are any questions :mrgreen:

Rules
1. Do not talk about the game outside this thread. Gojoe is allowed if properly spoilered.
2. Stay on topic.
3. Lurking is not allowed. Any lurkers will be given a poke. If unresponsive, they may be replaced or modkilled.
4. If you are not part of the game please do not post in the thread.
5. You may not post verbatim or quote from your role PM.
6. Do not post at night. Do not post if you are dead.
7. No editing posts.
8. You must play to your win condition.
9. All PMs must be copied to both mods (Diemo and Maident)
10. All votes, unvotes and questions go on a separate line, bolded.
11. Deadlines will apply firmly whether a mod calls them or not. Pure discussion may continue until night is called.
12. No cryptography.

Something to note is that in this game, town does not control lynches, but instead vote to give either the cobalt or ruby to a player. That means that there are actually two votes going at once. To avoid confusion, please use the following format to vote:
Ruby vote: Maident
Ruby Unvote
or replace Ruby with Cobalt.
The ruby grants the power of a 1-shot cop, and the cobalt a 1-shot roleblock.

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Last edited by maident on Sat Apr 25, 2015 5:40 am UTC, edited 8 times in total.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby New User » Fri Feb 27, 2015 1:38 am UTC

Is this thread still under construction? Will we get an explanation of what the cobalts and rubies do?

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby maident » Fri Feb 27, 2015 6:41 am UTC

No the thread is not under construction.
Yes, I apologize for it not being clear in the OP, and will try to make it more straightforward.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby Gopher of Pern » Fri Feb 27, 2015 7:18 am UTC

If town do not have a lynch, how do they kill scum? Or are there different win conditions? Is it voting to give the ruby to someone, so whoever has the most ruby votes at the end of a day gets a cop that night?
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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby Lawrencelot » Fri Feb 27, 2015 8:47 am UTC

Yay saboteur, I'm in

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby SDK » Fri Feb 27, 2015 3:14 pm UTC

What is Saboteur?
The biggest number (63 quintillion googols in debt)

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby JudeMorrigan » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:18 pm UTC

My lack of knowledge of saboteur is presumably the issue, but count me among those who aren't really clear on how this plays.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby Lawrencelot » Fri Feb 27, 2015 4:24 pm UTC

Saboteur is a card game where you dig for treasure with all players, but some players are saboteurs trying to mislead the rest of the team into... not finding treasure. That aspect of the game is similar to mafia, but for the rest I don't know what this mafia game will be like, and Gopher asks a good question.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby maident » Fri Feb 27, 2015 5:50 pm UTC

Gopher of Pern wrote:If town do not have a lynch, how do they kill scum? Or are there different win conditions? Is it voting to give the ruby to someone, so whoever has the most ruby votes at the end of a day gets a cop that night?


Posting from phone.

Someone (chosen randomly and unknowingly) of town alignment is the key; if they get both the ruby and cobalt, town wins. Town also have the equivalent of a vig with one bullet.

Yes, whoever has the most ruby votes receives a cop for the night.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby mpolo » Sun Mar 01, 2015 1:38 pm UTC

What's the planned timeframe for this game? I ask, knowing that I'll be offline for a couple of weeks around Easter…
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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby Asmodieus » Sun Mar 01, 2015 2:01 pm UTC

I'd like to play
Tillian wrote:Yeah, but the polar bears get more territorial during the summer, so we have to stay indoors.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby maident » Sun Mar 01, 2015 6:30 pm UTC

@mpolo: In about a week is the planned start.

@everyone: Let me know if the following is incorrect please.
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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby mpolo » Sun Mar 01, 2015 7:28 pm UTC

Length of days and nights?

Also, is there a penalty (other than lost powers) if scum gets the ruby and/or cobalt?
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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby maident » Sun Mar 01, 2015 9:21 pm UTC

Varies, but probably 6ish days for a day and 3ish days for a night, with weekends (saturday and sunday) counting as 1 day. Will be shorter as the game goes on.

No, unless mafia have control over the votes (similar to a regular mafia game) where they would win.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby mpolo » Mon Mar 02, 2015 12:53 pm UTC

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby Diemo » Mon Mar 02, 2015 1:01 pm UTC

I should probably keep an eye on this.
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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby ajh » Mon Mar 02, 2015 2:41 pm UTC

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby Minestrone » Mon Mar 02, 2015 7:34 pm UTC

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby New User » Mon Mar 02, 2015 9:04 pm UTC

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby ahippo » Tue Mar 03, 2015 5:28 am UTC

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies

Postby maident » Sat Mar 07, 2015 7:04 pm UTC

Writing up role posts now. Please do not post until you have received yours.

Day 1
It was very quiet as the initial shock set in. The little gemologist, the seventh member of the team, looked around in uncertainty and fear, holding tightly onto the two gems. Now all that she could do was wait, dreading the results of the first vote. Without their lanterns, they would not be able to do much digging at night, and they had a long way to go before they could breach the surface. Until then, she would trust the votes of her team - for what choice did she really have? It was all up to them...

Day 1 is scheduled to end March 16th at 12:00PM PST.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby maident » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:04 pm UTC

As requested, here are the win conditions:

Mafia: Control the vote. If the number of mafia-aligned is ever equal to or greater than the number of town-aligned, mafia wins.

Town: Find and give the gems to an unknown town member. One of the town (unbeknownst even to them) has been randomly chosen. Should they receive both gems during a night (and then survive it), town wins. Note that if they are killed early, there is a hidden mechanic in place to give town a second chance.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby New User » Sat Mar 07, 2015 9:09 pm UTC

So, the town cannot lynch, but has a one-shot vigilante.

Can the mafia kill at night?

What happens if the chosen one is killed?

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby maident » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:12 pm UTC

The mafia control a kill.
Depends on what night they are killed. And that's all I'll say about it, I think.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby New User » Sat Mar 07, 2015 10:22 pm UTC

Well, then. Why don't we just give me both gems?

Vote Ruby: New User
Vote Cobalt: New User


But seriously, everybody will say that. So how will we proceed?

Here are a couple strategy suggestions:
1) We give both gems to the same person. This gives the possibility of a win, and also ensures that a roleblock will not be used on the cop.
2) We split the gems. I think the ruby should go to the towniest person, and the cobalt to the second towniest. A few problems with this: first, it's typically easier to spot scum than town. Second, we can only win if the chosen one gets both gems. So why split them?

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby Minestrone » Sat Mar 07, 2015 11:24 pm UTC

I agree that we shouldn't split the gems. The potential to win definitely outweighs the potential ill effects of giving both gems to scum. Especially since there doesn't seem to be a way of distinguishing the chosen one from other townies, we need to give ourselves as many chances to hit them as possible. A corollary to this is we need to give the gems to a different person each day. I don't agree that we should give the gems to New User though.

Vote Cobalt: Minestrone
Vote Ruby: Minestrone

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby ahippo » Sun Mar 08, 2015 1:32 pm UTC

Checking in. Not sure I understand the rules yet. Soon as I get home from work, I'll make sure I do.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby Asmodieus » Sun Mar 08, 2015 2:38 pm UTC

While the idea to give both gems to one person seems like a good idea, voting for yourself to get both gems because you know you're town could just as easily be a mafia gambit. I think we should hold off on gem votes until everyone chimes in.
Tillian wrote:Yeah, but the polar bears get more territorial during the summer, so we have to stay indoors.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby Minestrone » Sun Mar 08, 2015 5:33 pm UTC

The self votes are mostly a joke, I think. Of course, from my point of view, the optimal course of action is to give me both gems because I know I'm town but I can't say the same for any of you. The optimal course of action from all my fellow townie's points of view is for them to get the gems though, plus as you point out scum probably want to get the gems for themselves too, and we're eventually going to need to come to a consensus, which means I can't keep my vote on myself forever unless you all decide I'm townie. There's no harm in getting down an early vote though, since it's not like they can't be changed

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby Lawrencelot » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:38 pm UTC

I agree it's best to give both gems to one person.

Vote Ruby: Lawrencelot
Vote Cobalt: Lawrencelot


I hope we can come to a consensus soon enough, because not giving the gems to anyone is almost as bad as giving them to the mafia. I will suspect anyone who will harm the town in getting to a consensus.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby New User » Sun Mar 08, 2015 6:51 pm UTC

The rules state that the Ruby and Cobalt each have a 1-shot power. Can they be used only once in the entire game, or once per player, or once each night, or what?

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby maident » Sun Mar 08, 2015 7:53 pm UTC

It's one-shot in that the player receives the ability to cop or roleblock once that night; if they don't, they lose the ability. If a player continues to receive a gem, it'll be like they actually are a cop or a roleblocker because each night they can cop or roleblock someone. Hope that makes sense.

Official votals
Ruby
New User (1): New User
Minestrone (1): Minestrone
Lawrencelot (1): Lawrencelot

Cobalt
New User (1): New User
Minestrone (1): Minestrone
Lawrencelot (1): Lawrencelot

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby ahippo » Sun Mar 08, 2015 10:31 pm UTC

Kay. Got it now. I do have one question though.

Cop or roleblocker? So if both are given to one person we miss out on one of those abilities?

After going back and forth in my mind, I do agree we give both to one person, even though we could be losing out on one of the abilities. That is, assuming I read that correctly. If not then there's every reason to give them to the same person.

I'm pretty sure the roleblock is the better of the two, considering that if it successfully blocks the kill, the player who used it can easily claim who they targeted, and bam. Confirmed scum. (Right?) So I suggest using the cobalt, to whomever we give the gems, if only one can be used.

I don't have a great reason for this, but it's time to get crackin' so,

Vote Ruby: New User
Vote Cobalt: New User


More than anything else, because he voted first. Don't really have any reason not to trust him right now, and it's as good an option as any.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby maident » Sun Mar 08, 2015 11:30 pm UTC

ahippo wrote:Kay. Got it now. I do have one question though.

Cop or roleblocker? So if both are given to one person we miss out on one of those abilities?

Right.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby Minestrone » Mon Mar 09, 2015 12:17 am UTC

I still think we should give both gems to the same person. It doesn't seem like town can win by eliminating all mafia, so in a was the cop ability isn't very useful anyway, since even knowing all the scum wouldn't tell us who was the chosen one. At least the roleblock can potentially slow down the nightkills, but having a cop ability isn't worth missing out on a chance to win.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby New User » Mon Mar 09, 2015 1:16 am UTC

There are six players, right? We haven't even heard from ajh yet.

OK, I was thinking about the optimum strategy to use and this is what I typed out. Then as I was typing it, I thought of something that negates most of this. So I'm going to keep all this and put it under a spoiler, so you can see a comparison of my two strategy ideas and decide what you think.

Strategy 1:
Spoiler:
If there were two mafiosi and four town to begin with, and they can kill each night, that would mean that the votes would be tied after two nights. We would have only two chances to find the chosen one, and even if we knew who was town that would only be 50% chance to win. So we should definitely give both to the same player.

I suppose it's possible that there are other alignments, but no reason to get into that now.

If you get the gems and you get the chance to use only one of the two powers, I recommend using the cop power. Presuming the roleblock can block the mafia kill, if you used it against town nothing would happen and you'd get no feedback (and if you use the roleblock during N2 then you might block the vigilante accidentally). But if you use the cop power and you target a town player, at least you'd still get some useful information.

As for the "if I was a cop" strategy, it makes no sense to even do that since the gems will go to someone else the next day anyway. We might as well just flat-out claim our investigation each day. The only reason a cop wouldn't want to claim in a typical game of mafia would be if they were afraid of being night killed and therefor losing their cop utility.


Strategy 2: Just as I was typing that, I thought of something else. The moderator said the game will be won by the town if the chosen one has both gems and also survives the night. The only way to prevent the mafia from killing is to use the Cobalt roleblock, or so I presume. The mafia will know who has the gems, because it will be clearly displayed in the vote count. So they would naturally target the person with both gems. This means the only way to survive the night would be for the gem holder to use the Cobalt roleblock on the killer during the night. Even if the gem holder wanted to take the chance that they are not the chosen one and use the cop power to try to help the team, the mafia would just kill them anyway so they wouldn't ever get a chance to claim the investigation results. This all means that as long as we're giving both gems to one player, it would be completely worthless to use the Ruby cop power. The chosen one must get both gems and also must use the Cobalt roleblock on the killer in order to win. I suppose we might win if the vigilante kills the killer during the same night, but the vigilante shouldn't use the kill during N1:

The vigilante should wait until N2 to use the kill. If there are two mafiosi, and they kill one and the vig kills town also, then the votes would be tied after the first night. If the vig kills town during N2, the mafia would have won anyway so it wouldn't matter. If the vig kills mafia during N2, the game would last two more days.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby ajh » Mon Mar 09, 2015 3:13 pm UTC

We should split the gems until we're sure about the chosen one, for now. Slight FOS on Minestrone for
Minestrone wrote:The self votes are mostly a joke, I think. Of course, from my point of view, the optimal course of action is to give me both gems because I know I'm town but I can't say the same for any of you. The optimal course of action from all my fellow townie's points of view is for them to get the gems though, plus as you point out scum probably want to get the gems for themselves too, and we're eventually going to need to come to a consensus, which means I can't keep my vote on myself forever unless you all decide I'm townie. There's no harm in getting down an early vote though, since it's not like they can't be changed
That's a little empty.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby Asmodieus » Mon Mar 09, 2015 4:38 pm UTC

I agree with ajh, we should split up the gems until we get more information.

Giving both gems to one person on N1 would limit the utility that the gems have. Whoever has the ruby can investigate and whoever has the cobalt can roleblock someone. If someone doesn't die, it can be said that whoever got roleblocked is mafia. If both holders target different people, we'll have a better chance at finding out who the chosen one is and discovering the mafia.

Although we could get lucky and win on N1, it isn't likely.
Tillian wrote:Yeah, but the polar bears get more territorial during the summer, so we have to stay indoors.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby Minestrone » Mon Mar 09, 2015 5:29 pm UTC

The problem is we don't win this game by figuring out who's mafia, we win it by figuring out who's the chosen one and as far as I can tell literally the only way to do that is to give someone both gems. Of course it isn't likely we'll win on D1 but it isn't likely we'll win on D2 either so we need to give ourselves as many chances as possible.

By the way, when were we told that town has a one shot vig? Is that just something we're taking for granted? I guess it's important because if we had a vig who could kill every night or something then we could actually win by finding mafia and the strategy would be different.

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Re: Cobalts & Rubies [D1: As above, so below]

Postby Asmodieus » Mon Mar 09, 2015 6:33 pm UTC

Well, I presume that the ruby's one shot cop means someone can investigate. And if they can investigate someone, they'll figure out of they're town, mafia or the chosen one.

Since one person can't use both, it's better to split them until we can start ruling people out.
Tillian wrote:Yeah, but the polar bears get more territorial during the summer, so we have to stay indoors.


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