X-Men

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X-Men

Postby Sprocket » Mon Feb 02, 2009 6:36 pm UTC

I figured a solid X-Men thread was a nice sensible thing that we totally should already have had by now.

Anyway, I just finished Joss Whedon's volumes, they were neat, I enjoyed the characters and comedy quite a bit, and the plots were fun too.

Now I'm reading Tomorrow People and Enemy of the State, and when I feel like it, checking in on the old Pheonix Rising because it relates so heavily to the stuff Joss Whedon wrote. Tomorrow People is kind of flimsy, a bit childish, but I got involved. Enemy of the state is a lot more mature.

I had never really read X-men comics prior to these, infact the first comic involving the X-Men I ever read before this was Neil Gaiman's 1602. I enjoy them, but there's one thing that annoys me -

why can't x-men just exist in an OTHER SUPER-HERO FREE universe! Why do Cpt. Am. and Spidey and The flubbing Fant 4 havta always show up and suck my dick!?

Seriously, having mutant powers is not all that interesting or amazing when there are other super-humans around who got their powers in other ways. And why would humanity have more reason to fear mutants than to fear any of the other costumed, power having potential lunactics?

That is all.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:00 pm UTC

Well, uh... I'm not sure if you noticed the race theme?
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Re: X-Men

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Feb 02, 2009 7:44 pm UTC

As CatProx said, it kinda starts to fall apart with the nonMutant superheros running around.

Not that I'm a huge X-Men reader. It's possible every few issues someone mutters "Why can't the mutants all be good little mutants like those nice Fantastic Four boys and their ladyfriend" or something equally patronizing, that would change things a bit. But I don't recall that being said.
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Re: X-Men

Postby JayDee » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:19 pm UTC

As far as I can tell, they just act most of the time as if they are in there own universe. The only real time they deal with other capes is when they do crossover type issues. In X-men books, at least. Individual characters (like Wolverine, Namor, Quicksilver and Scarlet Witch) that are on other teams and so on deal less with the anti-mutant sentiment, as far as I can tell.

Not to mention that Marvel have had the general public hating and mistrusting all super powered types lately, since the whole Civil War / Super Hero Registration Act thing.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Feb 02, 2009 10:28 pm UTC

I had to look up Tomorrow People to see what it was, and I now see that it's the first Ultimate X-Men book. Keep in mind that it has nothing to do with Whedon's stuff. New X-Men by Grant Morrison is the more direct lead-in to that. I don't even remember Phoenix having much of anything to do with Whedon's run.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Izawwlgood » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:13 pm UTC

Also, keep in mind, most Marvel comics now a days suffer from an extreme form of historical content negligence. Each arc is separately doing it's own thing and often rehashing, or worse, straight up ignoring, previous storytelling that's occurred.
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Re: X-Men

Postby JayDee » Mon Feb 02, 2009 11:46 pm UTC

In the interest of a general X-Men thread:

I started reading X-Men recently (although recently has suddenly become 2 year ago, my how time flies) when Mike Carey took over Adjectiveless X-Men. Read (and enjoyed) that and Uncanny through to the end of Messiah Complex by which time I was picking up most titles but now I've dropped down to only reading X-Men:Legacy (the title Mike Carey is still writing.) I'm enjoying Legacy far more than I'm supposed to, I think, because it is a fairly continuity heavy title and I'm not familiar with much of the continuity at all. Assuming the 90s cartoon doesn't count, that is.

It was nice have a small range of titles that had a self-contained continuity, for the most part. I love the idea of a comics universe, and I like reading about the big Marvel crossover events, but I don't have the money nor the inclination to buy a whole heap of titles. Getting most of the X-men stuff was a nice compromise (although nowhere near as nice as buying all the IDW Transformers stuff, especially when Simon Furman is writing.)

I have picked up a couple of the Essential (black and white phone book compilations) the one with the very first team - which I enjoyed greatly and lead me to pick up X-Men First Class, which has been a lot of fun - and the first two of the Claremont 70s relaunch - which includes the Dark Phoenix Saga.
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Re: X-Men

Postby steewi » Tue Feb 03, 2009 1:40 am UTC

I picked up on X-Men from the movies. *ducks to avoid garbage hurled at his head*

Most of the comic versions I've read have been Astonishing and Ultimate. As much as I'm a Joss fanboy, I've actually found Ultimate to be more my thing.

For me X-men has been totally all about the anti-mutant minority angst. Whether you want to analogise it with race, religion, sexuality, or whatever (for me it's sexuality), it's all about discrimination and resisting people who want to shoot you down for being who you are.

Edited for Oh God so many typos.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Sprocket » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:12 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:I had to look up Tomorrow People to see what it was, and I now see that it's the first Ultimate X-Men book. Keep in mind that it has nothing to do with Whedon's stuff. New X-Men by Grant Morrison is the more direct lead-in to that. I don't even remember Phoenix having much of anything to do with Whedon's run.
I'm well aware that tomorrow people has nothing to do with whedon. Why would you think I did?

Pheonix Rising is a saga from the 80s, Whedon takes a frame right out of the begining of it in the begining of his X-men, a lot of the things that happen in the one are connected to the other, lots of echos.

All of the X-men comics I have read have other Marvel characters in them, even in Whedons there's this really useless thing where all the super powered folk get together and are supposed to be trying to help but they all go numb in the brain. I hear there is pressure to include other marvel characters in your series, especially when it is new. I started with the early 90s cartoon as well. Then some years later in high school Nerds had X-Men collector cards on the back of them which I thought were cool. Naturally I saw the movies years later (god 3 was SO bad) and a few years back I read Marvel 1602 because I was on a major Neil Gaiman binge. I am for the first time reading X-Men comics and most of my experience with them previously has been them as the only super-powers on the planet. I'm thinking possibly with Fury showing up in IronMan that the Wolverine movie may insist on joining the party... meh.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue Feb 03, 2009 5:13 pm UTC

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Re: X-Men

Postby JayDee » Wed Feb 04, 2009 12:18 am UTC

CatProximity wrote:All of the X-men comics I have read have other Marvel characters in them, even in Whedons there's this really useless thing where all the super powered folk get together and are supposed to be trying to help but they all go numb in the brain. I hear there is pressure to include other marvel characters in your series, especially when it is new.
In that case I think it was more that when you have certain types of huge events, it's harder get away with ignoring everyone else in the universe. Which would be part editorial mandate, part what (some) of the reader base wants. 'Cause everyone loves crossovers, right!

I agree that X-men is way better when it has nothing to do with the marvel universe at large. There is enough scope for crossovers and such between the X-books.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Feb 04, 2009 3:45 pm UTC

It's a shared universe. Sometimes other characters pop in for an issue or two. The only time it's really bothersome is when they go out of their way to advertise the fact. "GUEST STARRING WOLVERINE!!!" or whatever all over the cover. Nick Fury at the beginning of Astonishing or the rest of the MU at the end made sense and fit the story being told without being used as marketing tools. It would probably happen even more often if the X-Men were based in NYC with the rest of Marvel. I don't really think it detracts from it, at all, and can be used to bring up a character who's been languishing if done properly (see Iron Fist in Daredevil). It would make far less sense if the X-Men didn't get all the help they could to stop the MAGIC SPACE BULLET (fucking terrible idea, by the way) that was threatening to destroy the whole planet.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed Feb 04, 2009 4:18 pm UTC

What about Ultimate Spiderman after the Venom saga? The what, three episode Wolverine crossover arc? What was that shit about?
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Re: X-Men

Postby Endless Mike » Wed Feb 04, 2009 6:46 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:What about Ultimate Spiderman after the Venom saga? The what, three episode Wolverine crossover arc? What was that shit about?

I don't even remember what happened. USM hasn't ever really needed a sales boost, so I'm guessing they were just Bendis having some fun and using different characters because why not?

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Re: X-Men

Postby mosc » Wed Feb 04, 2009 9:32 pm UTC

The best x-men stuff is still the 90s cartoon. There, I said it.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Sprocket » Fri Feb 06, 2009 7:39 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote: It would make far less sense if the X-Men didn't get all the help they could to stop the MAGIC SPACE BULLET (fucking terrible idea, by the way) that was threatening to destroy the whole planet.

Yeah, I think that was definitely Joss being silly...I mean, he's silly.

I feel like just because Marvel owns all these characters doesn't mean they have to literally exist in the same universe. I feel like an anomaly is more interesting and less "oh brother" than a bunch of super people running around. Like, if you write a story about aliens, and people reading it need to go "ok, in this universe I have to accept that aliens have come to earth" but then on top of it you say "oh..and harry potter is going to save us from them." And then you have to go ..."so, there's aliens AND a magical wizard race who keeps their presence entirely secret from humanity...::Sigh::"
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Re: X-Men

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Feb 09, 2009 4:48 pm UTC

I'm getting the feeling that you just don't get superhero comics. Silly things like wizards, super-science, aliens that can eat your planet, and talking monkeys all in the same universe and interacting is all part of the fun. Plus there's the simple (sad) fact that the further from the core of the universe a comic is, the lower it sells, regardless of quality. It took a LONG time for the X-Men to work their way to one of Marvel's top sellers, and they largely occupy their own space within the MU.

If you want superhero stories that are more self-contained, there's Kirkman's Invincible over at Image, and some stuff from Boom!, I guess.

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Re: X-Men

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:17 pm UTC

They're only like that because two companies decided they should be like that, and happen to have the best selling comics of the bunch.

Which leads to ridiculousness due to the incredible interaction of them yet lack thereof - ie - The X-Men go and stop some world-threatening calamity in their books - where the fuck was the Fantastic Four and Doc Strange? Why didn't Iron Man get off his ass and lend a hand? Hell, where were the Avengers? And just how the hell was Wolverine both with the X-Men in Outer Space for a month AND hanging with the Avengers? Assuming he somehow was able to do that, couldn't he have said "Oh, by the way, my other crew and I are about to head off to space to stop a comet or something.. anyone wanna give Thor a boost up there so he can smack it with his hammer so I don't have to change out of my jammies that day, bub?"
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Re: X-Men

Postby Endless Mike » Mon Feb 09, 2009 6:45 pm UTC

Yeah, but like if people are buying it, it would suggest that it's what they want (ignoring any quality arguments here). I just think that at the point that you're reading and enjoying a story about people in tights and capes beating each other up, you kind of have to accept some inherent stupidity.

And Astonishing took place over the course of a week at most, so it's not like he was missed, since he was also in Madripoor and killing Sabertooth at the same time. ;)

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Re: X-Men

Postby Jesse » Tue Feb 10, 2009 12:33 pm UTC

"Here is a thing that I don't like about this comic."
"You should just accept that it happens, rather than be annoyed because it has."

What? If I am playing a videogame that is pretty awesome but has crappy controls, should I just accept that a lot of videogames have poor controls, or should I wish that they'd spent the time on making it better?

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Re: X-Men

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Feb 10, 2009 3:31 pm UTC

That's actually exactly what Resident Evil fans tell me. So I search out games that aren't Resident Evil. If you don't like how DC and Marvel work, don't read DC and Marvel.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Jesse » Tue Feb 10, 2009 6:27 pm UTC

And what about when I read Runaways first series, and it goes really well, but then they start crossing it over with Young Avengers and ruin it? Am I not entitled to be unhappy that they've taken a good series and ruined it with crossovers?

I mean, it's not like reading Marvel/DC doesn't make you somehow inable to also read independent stuff, if anything reading the independent stuff can make you wish even more that Marvel operated a bitmore like that, because you can see the potential of some things.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Feb 10, 2009 9:10 pm UTC

See, your claim is that crossing over Runaways with Young Avengers inherently ruins it, but it's my belief that poor writing of a sideseries that's unimportant to the main series is the culprit there (although I haven't actually read Runaways since Vaughn left so maybe it's happening in the main series, but EVEN THEN the Avengers and Cloak and Dagger showed up in Runaways, so it's not without precedent).

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Re: X-Men

Postby Jessica » Tue Feb 10, 2009 10:59 pm UTC

Different writers ruined runaways, not crossovers.
The first run of runaways was the best. They had crossover that worked (like when Cap showed up and told the kids to go home and they just ignored him). It was written well.
The second run of runaways was... eh. Better when Vaughan wrote, then when Whedon wrote, but still ok. When Wells wrote the crossover it sucked.
Now the third run also sucks. Both the secret invasion and the actual run of the comic are bad.

It wasn't crossover which made the comic worse. It was writers being shitty. The original idea was awesome, the second run was like coming back to an old friend and finding she had some trouble with the law, and got a little emo, then became schizo when her mind changed. The third run was just retarded.
Edit: Sorry... I love runaways. Probably my favourite marvel comic.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Jesse » Wed Feb 11, 2009 12:26 am UTC

Way to completely miss the point.

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Re: X-Men

Postby tgjensen » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:40 pm UTC

SecondTalon wrote:Which leads to ridiculousness due to the incredible interaction of them yet lack thereof - ie - The X-Men go and stop some world-threatening calamity in their books - where the fuck was the Fantastic Four and Doc Strange? Why didn't Iron Man get off his ass and lend a hand? Hell, where were the Avengers?


That's not ridiculous, it's a stroke of genius. Semi-contained universes allow everybody to have their cake and eat it too, at the very small cost of only a little suspension of disbelief.
We're talking about mass-produced commercial male wish-fulfillment fantasies here, not works of art. Getting worked up over that is frankly a little crazy.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Jesse » Wed Feb 11, 2009 9:54 pm UTC

tgjensen wrote:We're talking about mass-produced commercial male wish-fulfillment fantasies here, not works of art.


Now fair, we're discussing the Marvel Universe here, and not Lucifer, but is it so wrong of us to wish they could move past what they are? It's not like there haven't been great runs within these comics that have show us just what they're capable of. Your argument is that when Joe Quesada broke up MJ and Spider-Man just because he was having a mid-life crisis we should have just shrugged it off as "Oh well, it's only Marvel". But no, that's not how I see it. I think I'm entitled to get angry when a product I enjoy takes a direction that I don't enjoy to the point of no longer reading the things.

Rather than leave the MU and only read independent comics, I see no reason why I can't read both and do my best to influence the MU into following what is good about the independent comics.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Jessica » Thu Feb 12, 2009 12:07 am UTC

Oh, there's nothing wrong with being annoyed that your favourite comics take turns for the worst. I'm quite annoyed that Runaways, one of my favourite comics marvel ever created, is now essentially a piece of garbage. This pisses me off.

It really makes me wish that it had stayed on it's first run.

It's like nextwave. those 12 issues were awesome. If they brought it back, and Ellis wasn't really into it, and they just turned it into more dross, I'd be really pissed off. I'd be even more pissed off if Ellis didn't want anything to do with it, and they brought it back anyway. It would suck. And I'd be mightily pissed at Marvel.

Edit: Reading the wiki entry on nextwave makes me angry, as it's like marvel saw what Ellis did and wants to incorporate it into their universe and be like "wow, look at these zany guys!". ellis's work should be in a separate multiverse... It makes no sense in marvel continuity...
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Re: X-Men

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Feb 12, 2009 3:34 pm UTC

Machine Man is really the only one who's shown up outside Nextwave and done anything (Rambeau popped up in a panel or two to stand around in Civil War) and has been far more interesting than any other time he's appeared. I doubt they'll really do much with them.

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Re: X-Men

Postby tgjensen » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:17 pm UTC

Jesse wrote:Now fair, we're discussing the Marvel Universe here, and not Lucifer, but is it so wrong of us to wish they could move past what they are? It's not like there haven't been great runs within these comics that have show us just what they're capable of.


I know what you mean, but this is like being angry at McDonald's for not being a five star restaurant. As long as your average comic book sells they'll keep churning out more stuff. This inevitably means that some of it will be of low quality and/or not to your tastes. You'll never get a proper ending to the story. So why don't you just buy the good trades, enjoy the ride and ignore the intermittent crap?

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Re: X-Men

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:39 pm UTC

Because it's like only going to McDonald's when you know Tom's on the Grill in back. You can see where if the other cooks would just take a few lessons from Tom, it'll all be better all round. Still not a five star restaurant by any means, but a worthwhile place to stop for a quick bite from time to time.

Instead, you get a fast, cheap, decent (in that order) burger when Tom's working, and barely edible slop when he's not. And you know it's not just you.. everyone around you loves it when Tom's there, just that some of them keep going out of brand loyalty and besides, if they didn't buy it when Tom wasn't there, the restaurant would fold completely and then you'd have to track Tom down over at Burger King and hope he can work similar magic with their flame grill too.

Also, sometimes when Tom's not there, someone jizzes in the soup.
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Re: X-Men

Postby Jessica » Mon Feb 16, 2009 9:45 pm UTC

The worst thing is when you show up at McDonalds when Tom is working, and just as you order one of Tom's burgers, he takes his break and someone else takes over and shits on the grill. And you get ready to eat one of Tom's awesome burgers and then... shit.
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Re: X-Men

Postby dbsmith » Thu Mar 12, 2009 7:59 am UTC

I need help.
After reading Whedon's Xmen series, I'd like to read some more, but am bewildered by the choice.
A) Is there a NEWBIE guide out there for understanding how the hell all the different story arcs fit together? I buy graphic novel collections, not individual comics, so reading stuff like: Unlimited Xmen 112-115 THEN Uncanny Xmen 256 - 284 scares the crap out of me.
B) Where to next? Grant Morrison's New X-men seems appealing...

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Re: X-Men

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Mar 12, 2009 3:47 pm UTC

Morrison's New X-Men leads into Astonishing (with a small, completely ignorable break). It's my personal favorite run, actually. Mike Carey's stuff leading up to and through Messiah Complex was really interesting with an extremely unusual team lineup.

As for a newbie guide, not so much. Basically, the various series are collected together unless there's a specific crossover (Messiah Complex, for instance) that would require them to be collected together.

I would recommend the Essential books (black and white newsprint covering 30 or so issues) in order, but note that they're a bit...oddly titled. There's Essential X-Men, which starts at Giant Sized X-Men #1, then goes to Uncanny #whatever the first issue of the second class is, and Essential Uncanny X-Men, which starts at (Uncanny) X-Men #1, and there's two or three volumes of that covering up until the series was put into reprints prior to Giant Sized X-Men #1. The recent Messiah Complex story *should* be out in trades by now, and has really defined the status quo of where the various series are currently going.

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Re: X-Men

Postby Podger » Fri May 08, 2009 10:28 pm UTC

I stopped reading x-men last year. What follows is a fanboy rant about how when Grant Morrison was writing the series was so much better. I encourage you to skip over it.

Spoiler:
I started 8 years ago and read every single comic of theirs I could find for one simple reason: New X-men written by Grant Morrison. The series that started with the destruction of Genosha and never stopped actually creating plot. Where mutants were common and the world they inhabited seemed to be actually coherent. Then Xorn (coolest character ever created) turned out to be Magneto (except he didn't and he somehow had a brother,and the constant rewrites of his character that occurred later still makes me feel a little ill. Magneto is killed for the second time in this series in a finale that is perfectly dramatic yet anti-climatic. We finally get a good answer on what the pheonix force is. And then a new writer takes over.

Magneto never really died, it was a clone or a copycat or something that they never even bothered explaining. M-day destroyed the mutant population, the background characters that made The New X-men so worth reading were erased. Every part of the x-men that I had grown to know and love was rewritten or made trivial.


The main problem with a series that has run 50 years with I don't know how many different writers is that so little changes. A writer may make a huge beautiful plot and the next writer will completely ignore or change the effects of said plot. Could you imagine what it would be like if the storylines were cumulative? If the characters actually aged? Spider-man should be 64, Magneto who grew up in concentration camps should be close to 80 now, instead they are actors on a stage eternally repeating their tired lines (I should probably have stuck this rant in the spoiler section too, sigh...) Just once I would like Magneto to be portrayed as a hero. Selflessly saving mutants with no political agenda, instead everything he does is flat.

On a side note X-factor seems to have a good story going right now and Cable actually seems to be doing something significant.

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GonzoMcFonzo
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Re: X-Men

Postby GonzoMcFonzo » Thu May 28, 2009 9:16 pm UTC

mosc wrote:The best x-men stuff is still the 90s cartoon. There, I said it.

I thought the same thing too,for well over a decade. Then I found out my university library has the "Essential X-Men" collections that Endless Mike was talking about and... damn. I never realised that about 90% of the stories in the cartoon were more or less directly lifted from Uncanny X-Men under Claremont. I was more or less familiar with the continuity and had read civil war and the first couple of storylines of ultimate x-men, but I was really impressed with basically everything in the late 70's/early 80's.

dbsmith wrote:I need help.
After reading Whedon's Xmen series, I'd like to read some more, but am bewildered by the choice.
A) Is there a NEWBIE guide out there for understanding how the hell all the different story arcs fit together? I buy graphic novel collections, not individual comics, so reading stuff like: Unlimited Xmen 112-115 THEN Uncanny Xmen 256 - 284 scares the crap out of me.
B) Where to next? Grant Morrison's New X-men seems appealing...

I'd recommend anyone, especially fans of the cartoon or movies, who wants to get familiar with X-men comics to just do what I did. If you're not worried about being able to bitch talk about the latest stories on the internet, but you really want to familiarise yourself with what made X-Men great in the first place, or you just want to have some fun reading comics, just read essential X-men. They're just like graphic novel collections, except that sometimes there's no coherent central plot to a particular collection.

As for the Essential Uncanny X-Men... idk, I'd skim it or something. It's novel to see how some of these guys got their start (I particularly enjoy comparing mastermind from the Brotherhood to the same character in the Hellfireclub) but not entirely crucial.

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Re: X-Men

Postby foresthouse » Wed Sep 23, 2009 12:59 am UTC

The X-Men history tends to confuse me occasionally even though I've read a lot of it. I tend to not read it so much these days. Peter David's writing on Wolverine: First Class is pretty enjoyable, though. Right now I'm following that and Cable (which has its moments), along with my faaavorite character, Deadpool (who is *kind of* X-Men related, although I like to argue he's not because in my fantasy world that means FOX would have to relinquish the rights and Marvel could do his movie). Oh, and Runaways, which isn't really X-Men but occasionally collides with it (and Molly is a mutant).

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dbsmith
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Re: X-Men

Postby dbsmith » Mon Oct 26, 2009 11:53 pm UTC

Damn you're quite right, Wolverine would look pretty smart in a polo shirt

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Sprocket
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Magneto toque

Postby Sprocket » Thu Feb 04, 2010 8:17 am UTC

Magneto toque
Attachments
magneto hat.jpg
"She’s a free spirit, a wind-rider, she’s at one with nature, and walks with the kodama eidolons”
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Zohar wrote: Down with the hipster binary! It's a SPECTRUM!

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Vieto
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Re: Magneto toque

Postby Vieto » Tue Feb 16, 2010 12:57 pm UTC

Sprocket wrote:Magneto toque


that... looks pretty awesome.


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