Linux vs Windows vs Mac

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Iranon
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Iranon » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:39 pm UTC

I wouldn't dismiss soft benefits.
These days, most new computers are powerful enough to do what most users require of them, and they may become obsolete on features/technology standards before they suffer from inadequate performance.
Spending money on quality of input devices, screen, speakers, build quality, design, case material, power consumption, noise, heat, reliability and support instead makes sense more often than not.

Of course the value of soft benefits depends on user's needs. If you're willing to pay ten to twenty times the price of a cheap, nasty keyboard you probably know whether you want a design marvel, a featureful gaming keyboard, or something that's pleasant to type on for extended periods of time.
These usually don't overlap and even in these groups there may be strong preferences (buckling springs are awesome, but noisy enough to wreck marriages).

Also: to some people flair matters. Having people who refused to devote any thought to backup rave about a massively overkill solution with a fancy name, spiffy interface an marketing efforts to turn it into an experience feels off... but if that's what it takes and they're happy, fine.
There are plenty of high-end hardware alternatives to macs, but the level of integration and focus on experience is something nobody else even tries to match. Also an excellent point by Steax - although instead of confusion/frustration before a purchase we may get more buyer's remorse and unease concerning planned obsolescense.
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Endless Mike
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Endless Mike » Tue Jul 17, 2012 3:49 pm UTC

Iranon wrote:Also an excellent point by Steax - although instead of confusion/frustration before a purchase we may get more buyer's remorse and unease concerning planned obsolescense.

Yeah, it's utterly irrational, since any computer company NOT updating their lines AT LEAST once per year is going to be obsolete incredibly quickly, whether it's planned or not, but it IS how many consumers think. (Apple *does* have a level of built-in obsolescence that other OS developers do not, in that they - seemingly somewhat arbitrarily - prevent older models from being able to install newer OS versions, but there's typically workarounds and the option to install Windows or Linux is always valid.)

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Steax
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Steax » Tue Jul 17, 2012 4:04 pm UTC

At least Apple has a pretty clear support scheme; 5 years for desktops, 3 for handhelds (roughly - sometimes hardware also comes into play). It's pretty arbitrary, but I think it works. Also, their versions are pretty incremental and straightforward; some software support does drop, but it's not a death sentence for the old device. (And, most importantly, those upgrades are without hassle and have no complex pricing schemes and are priced at very, very fair points.) So while planned obsolescence happens (like everywhere), at least you get a pretty good idea of how long it'll last.

Another increasingly common trend I'm seeing is that people are replacing their laptops more often due to damage, instead of other issues. I guess it's a given, seeing as how today we use our laptops more often, sometimes as a replacement for a desktop machine entirely. It's not necessarily really bad damage - people just don't like to see their things scratched and dented.
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Max™
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:14 pm UTC

I was looking for a particular sexkeyboard I saw recently and found this randomly... I gotta say, it looks interesting.
Image


But yeah, I do and don't want to get my hands on one of these:
Spoiler:
Image


Do because it looks sexy as hell, don't because I spent that much on my entire rig >.<.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Copper Bezel » Tue Jul 17, 2012 9:26 pm UTC

See, I think I'd be better at touch-typing if it weren't for all the silly little labels to remind me what the buttons do making me lazy, and then it would be much simpler to try learning Dvorak, too.
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Max™
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Tue Jul 17, 2012 10:01 pm UTC

Fuck man, I'm so used to touch typing sometimes if I start a word that doesn't have me brush the f or j bumps zo;gkr dgok ;drjy ;skgr while watching tv and look over just in time to realize I went full retard briefly. "Oh what the hell fingers, seriously?"

Least it's not as bad as saying something to someone on facebook and tossing in bbcode tags without realizing it. Between the palladium, bluegartr, and spacebattles boards I've spent way too much time on phpbb boards, and sure enough I had to find that damn subsilver button in here... I know it's usually there, I try to avoid looking for it because I Just love this layout.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Arariel » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:38 am UTC

Steax wrote:Sounds sweet in theory. In practice, do you ever see anyone browse around various models for a month until they find one that fits? It's part of why people rely so much on reviews and word of mouth. And of course it's in their interest to make you buy one of theirs. All companies have that interest. It doesn't mean they actually make anything better for certain.


That's really their problem for not properly using the opportunities presented to them.

It's nice that you think this, but with the number of awful laptops out there, someone must be buying them. And since laptops are items most people keep for at least a few years, by the time they get ready to replace them, they just think "It's old!" and forget that it was pretty much a piece of shit from the day it was built.


Ooor, you can properly research what you buy, utilise your return period if you don't like the computer, and save a few hundred bucks.

Lenovo is an exception and other than Apple, the only brand I would recommend to anyone, and even their lower-priced lines (the ones they didn't buy from IBM) are not the best quality.


Quality, perhaps not, durable, I've seen some pretty old Lenovos that worked well.

(Also, as an aside, don't mix up return periods and warranties. One is because you don't like something, the other is because it doesn't work, and a 30 day warranty is pitifully short.)


Ah, right, return period.

KnightExemplar wrote:And we're all the way back to where we've started, right? It only matters if the consumer actually go out and buy a competitor's... Like Apple's computers. Which... they are.


Because there's really only one manufacturer of cheap laptops, right?

And now we're back to why Apple computers, of higher physical build quality leads to higher sales. And why people value Apple's computers. When you get an Apple computer... its all about the screen, keyboard, trackpad, and form factor. Higher quality physical parts correlate to a higher cost laptop overall. And people are willing to buy that laptop over a "more powerful" one.


Actually, I usually hear something about Macs not getting viruses and the related schtick. And then it eventually comes down to 'it just looks better' which is really just silly.


Copper Bezel wrote:See, I think I'd be better at touch-typing if it weren't for all the silly little labels to remind me what the buttons do making me lazy, and then it would be much simpler to try learning Dvorak, too.


Ever heard of tape? :P

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Steax
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Steax » Wed Jul 18, 2012 6:52 am UTC

Arariel wrote:
Steax wrote:Sounds sweet in theory. In practice, do you ever see anyone browse around various models for a month until they find one that fits? It's part of why people rely so much on reviews and word of mouth. And of course it's in their interest to make you buy one of theirs. All companies have that interest. It doesn't mean they actually make anything better for certain.


That's really their problem for not properly using the opportunities presented to them.


Yes. Yes it is. Your point being?

Ooor, you can properly research what you buy, utilise your return period if you don't like the computer, and save a few hundred bucks.


Do you really think the average person has time for this? They'll ask their friends "hey, what laptop do you recommend?", buy it, and just goddamn use it. Because mot people don't have time to manage returning items and all that stuff. In fact, I don't even think I've seen a person bother to do it. Admit it, what planet are you from? TELL US!

Arariel wrote:
And now we're back to why Apple computers, of higher physical build quality leads to higher sales. And why people value Apple's computers. When you get an Apple computer... its all about the screen, keyboard, trackpad, and form factor. Higher quality physical parts correlate to a higher cost laptop overall. And people are willing to buy that laptop over a "more powerful" one.


Actually, I usually hear something about Macs not getting viruses and the related schtick. And then it eventually comes down to 'it just looks better' which is really just silly.


People typically don't mention touchy-feeling bits because it typically doesn't work as well in a comparison, and most people don't even realize how good it is. That's the beauty of product design. It lives everywhere, from how good refrigerators have just enough shelf height to fit in your average milk carton to your car having just the right pocket size for a magazine without slipping nor bending. It's not "just silly".

Another point is that people are quick to mention windows-virus immunity, built-in drivers and stuff like that because it's a very real sensation, and it registers well with one's memory. A coworker handing you a flash drive and saying "watch out, it might have a virus" gives that sense of safety. So does picking up a random printer, sticking it in and watching it just work, without bloatware and CDs. It's that moment of "this is such a nice product" which sticks to a user. It's well known - it's not just Apple who does it.
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Max™
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Wed Jul 18, 2012 11:14 pm UTC

^The bit about polished presentation is true, it's one of the big reasons why Ubuntu is such a good newbie distro compared to say Arch, and why I actually recommend Pinguy over it; all the drivers, software, and settings all included in a nice clean friendly package.


I utterly disagree about the average person not having time to do enough research to avoid making a bad purchase on anything significant.

If that is the case, the average person is a fucking moron and we don't need to worry what they think, which is lucky as they apparently do that very little.


I suspect there is some difference about what we would define as an average person, perhaps they're far dumber over there?

I find that improbable though, I'm in Memphis and lived in Louisville for a while, you haven't seen dumb til you've lived among hillbillies and crackheads.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Jul 19, 2012 12:45 am UTC

If you don't care what they think or where they spend their money, then why is it a problem that they spend it buying from a brand known for consistency? (Steax doesn't have to provide positive evidence that that's a positively good thing - if you're dismissing the benefit of letting folks have option, the burden of proof is on your side to prove that having the option is worse than neutral, isn't it?)

And frankly, I do care what they think, because I tend to think that the majority of PC buyers buy them the way a person buys a washing machine, and they're a market influence on the field that the rest of use are choosing from.

Several random little edits later.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby sam_i_am » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:13 am UTC

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Max™
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:16 am UTC

Note that I wasn't actually disagreeing with the point you made, CB, merely the idea that people don't have a few minutes to go check a couple amazon reviews or whatnot before dumping $300 to $1k+ on a computer.

I'm not really influenced by the average computer buying market though, the closest to a pre-built system I'd get these days is a Raspberry Pi.

The picture is indeed apt... and it took me two tries to avoid typing -get after "apt".
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Steax
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Steax » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:17 am UTC

I think, like the tangent about build-your-own-PC earlier, you severely overestimate how people function.

Wading through review sites, reviewing complex tech sheets, looking up component information, and then talking to salesmen who work on commission is a lot of hassle for - as I mentioned several times before in the thread - people who just want to get stuff done. Not to mention, as Arariel suggested, the extra hassle of migrating software and data on the new laptop, using it for a few weeks, see if it's not worth it, and optionally secure-delete your files and software, send it back, hope they don't have an issue with your product, repeat the research, buy a new one, and wait for that money to come back.

It is a lot of extra work.

People are not stupid. They simply prefer to focus their time and intelligence on things that matter to them - and for the average person, a computer is a tool, not a goal. People make bad purchases all the time - which is why brands that constantly trim off "bad" products like Apple exist, to cater for people who don't want to think. And yes. People don't want to think. That's just how the human brain functions.

Edit after your last post:

If you're talking about "check a few reviews", then yeah, some people do that (though still comparably tiny - many people don't even know how to use Amazon, which is an inherently "scary" thing, due to it being tied to "e-commerce" and credit cards). I wasn't talking about reviews. Some people also prefer just walking into a physical store and asking a guy (another reason why Apple, and now other companies, put focus on making good stores).

I was talking about the level of obscure decision-making Arariel was talking about.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:21 am UTC

Is it ironic for a mac user to call a computer a tool rather than a goal?


I agree that Amazon is scary, but not for the e-commerce reasons, mostly because of how addictive it is once you get used to it.

Still, my woman is completely un-tech savvy, it took me installing Bodhi for her to love linux and it took me signing into my student prime account on her comp for her to love Amazon, if the people we're talking about are baby boomers, well, they need to die already, I'm tired of them trying to burn up everything before they go... if the people we're talking about are young, there's no reason for a young person to be that tech-ignorant these days.

Btw, the "mac as viewed by linux fanboys" should have a zombie Jobs now.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Dason » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:23 am UTC

Max™ wrote:Is it ironic for a mac user to call a computer a tool rather than a goal?

No
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Steax » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:24 am UTC

Why would it be ironic? A computer is a tool. For gamers, it's a tool to play their game. For writers, it's a tool to write on. For accountants, it's a tool to keep their spreadsheets on. As a tool, a computer should try to be as transparent as possible. The fewer the barriers between a user and their goal, the better it is.

I'd say computers are goals only for people like us; programmers and people who have the meta-job of making stuff for computers.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:26 am UTC

Mac is a "lifestyle" more than a tool.

A computer is indeed a tool, but as has been explained, even by you Steax, Macs are not sold as tools.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Dason » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:27 am UTC

That still doesn't make it ironic for a mac user to call a computer a tool.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Steax » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:29 am UTC

It's both. It's marketed as a "luxury device", if you define "luxury" by "consistency, high levels of support, and high quality build production." (Which isn't really that bad a definition, IMHO. Maybe "tech luxury" needs to be a word.)

But it's still a tool. When people get their Mac, or PC or whatever, they don't sit down and admire it for days. After the honeymoon period goes away, it's again become a transparent window into whatever the person needs to get done.

And if Apple didn't get that part done, people would've switched away from it instantly.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:31 am UTC

Well, as you said, people don't want to do research to find out if there are actually alternatives, so no, I don't think that last bit is necessarily true.

Thinking about it further, I'd replace the Jobs money pic with a shot of a laptop on a table in a coffee shop. :P
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Steax » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:36 am UTC

Now you're just making no sense.

Alternatives exist, and people are aware of them. It's about the breaking point where someone says "this is crap, it's not getting my job done, I need something new". Then they're rely on a low-to-moderate level of reviews, word-of-mouth, and salesmen to pick a new one. (Remember, my earlier point was against Arariel, not you.) It's not black and white.

I honestly don't even know what you're arguing about now.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby sam_i_am » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:39 am UTC

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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:31 am UTC

Steax wrote:Now you're just making no sense.

Alternatives exist, and people are aware of them. It's about the breaking point where someone says "this is crap, it's not getting my job done, I need something new". Then they're rely on a low-to-moderate level of reviews, word-of-mouth, and salesmen to pick a new one. (Remember, my earlier point was against Arariel, not you.) It's not black and white.

I honestly don't even know what you're arguing about now.

No there really isn't much awareness of alternatives, how many people do you think continue using the same brand of computers strictly because it was the first one they ever used?
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Copper Bezel » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:24 am UTC

Yeah, I don't see awareness of alternatives in the mainstream, although I'm not sure about the brand loyalty. Hell, I don't see awareness of what a thing would be an alternative to in the mainstream. Asking someone to name their PC's make is like asking them to recite their auto license plate number, and I swear it's more common than not that users don't know what an OS is. At best, they know that Macs look like this and PCs look like that when you turn them on.

In troubleshooting a browser problem, I had to ask a student recently whether her home computer had the little round, glassy button in the corner or the long green one instead.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Steax » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:21 am UTC

Since we were talking about using a Mac as a "tool", don't you think people would be pretty keen on finding a better tool if it didn't work? If you got a luxury car that wouldn't start, even if you didn't know about alternatives, wouldn't you go look for something else?

You don't even need to do much market research or reviewing or analysis to get a new machine when your previous one isn't doing its job as a mere tool.

And if you're going to state that people would just stick to their old brand with no alternative awareness, can you explain the Mac usage increase?
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:26 am UTC

Re: CB, Oh lawd, and yeah, the idea that an os isn't a built in component is strange to some.

Shit, I got curious about what the woman's parents did with their old computers, found a fucking treasure trove of old systems to raid for parts, saved me quite a bit of cash.


Re: Steax, Yeah, but there's nothing about a Mac that specifically endears it as a tool over other systems, and to be fair if the last time you had played with Linux was long enough ago, the idea of trying that or windows again might seem like a rather shit choice for a Mac user.

Though there is a growing hackintosh community.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Steax » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:35 am UTC

"specifically endears it as a tool" is kind of the point of the thread. =p

But in the context of what I was saying earlier, yeah, I wasn't saying it magically was better than the other tools. I was just saying that it is a tool, something which you had issue with.

Also, no. I have Ubuntu, Arch and Windows 7 installed on adjacent computers here.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Iranon » Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:55 am UTC

I don't think it's possible to separate technical merits from lifestyle preferences. And this also applies to systems other than macs.

For Linux, there's the whole Free Software thing (both easy availability and ideology). Modularity instead of integration that costs some initial convenience and often polish... but allows one to turn one's system into a massive playground, finely honed production tool or both. The chaotic development that means there's always something new and exciting but also breaks stuff once in a while. The emphasis on user choice and control, even where it makes the platform an unattractive platform for commercial content.

It may apply less to Windows because it's the default choice and less dogmatic - the underlying theme seems to be "whatever works and keeps us ahead, doesn't have to be clean or pretty" instead of "sexiness and polish at any cost, even if this requires brainwashing and restraining our users" or "the freedom to make our lives needlessly difficult in the name of freedom".
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Arariel » Thu Jul 19, 2012 8:38 am UTC

I fail to see why people can't apply the same methods they use for car shopping as they do for shopping for computers. Certainly computers are much cheaper, but unless you value your time (that you probably won't spend working anyway) at upwards of a hundred dollars an hour, I really don't see why you can't try a computer for a few days and return it if you don't like it. There are people who buy overpriced vehicles as well, and I view them as just as wasteful.

A tool, incidentally, is a good tool when it's efficient. It's efficient when it gets the job done at a low cost.

Not to mention that much of what's been discussed only really applies to laptops. Is it at all defensible to purchase an Apple desktop?


Iranon wrote:I don't think it's possible to separate technical merits from lifestyle preferences. And this also applies to systems other than macs.

For Linux, there's the whole Free Software thing (both easy availability and ideology). Modularity instead of integration that costs some initial convenience and often polish... but allows one to turn one's system into a massive playground, finely honed production tool or both. The chaotic development that means there's always something new and exciting but also breaks stuff once in a while. The emphasis on user choice and control, even where it makes the platform an unattractive platform for commercial content.

It may apply less to Windows because it's the default choice and less dogmatic - the underlying theme seems to be "whatever works and keeps us ahead, doesn't have to be clean or pretty" instead of "sexiness and polish at any cost, even if this requires brainwashing and restraining our users" or "the freedom to make our lives needlessly difficult in the name of freedom".


Free software is much, much more than just the freedom to pick and choose the components of one system (although frequently results as a consequence). Loads of proprietary systems allow that as well. No free software proponent would complain if, for instance, Windows were made free (as in the four freedoms, not simply gratis), and plenty of people accept DEs that are fairly restraining (GNOME3 and Unity, from what I've heard of Unity). It's nice that there is choice, but the principle is that it must be a choice with freedom.

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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Iranon » Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:14 am UTC

Arariel wrote:Is it at all defensible to purchase an Apple desktop?


OS preference may be a dealbreaker, a hard one if you prefer OSX and a soft one if you don't and need to add the cost of a retail windows license to any perceived "Apple Tax".

Comparing just the hardware to similarly priced all-in-ones, iMacs usually come behind in features (touchscreen, Blu-Ray) and often in performance. They may be ahead in implementation of the basics (usually design consistency, material, build quality, input devices. Often screen and audio).

I can't find it at the moment, but I've read a statement by a Corsair representative that something in the league of a Mac Pro Case would be cost-prohibitive to manufacture if you don't have Apple's numbers or standardisation (high-end cases are a small and fractured market). IIRC he projected a $600-800 asking price for the case alone if one could magically create the demand.
To my knowledge, Mac Pros are built with too many quirks that you could just get a used case and easily fill it with off-the-shelf hardware so there's no real option.
Of course, most people aren't willing to pay a fair price for something this extravagantly engineered.

Apple's component upgrades on the other hand are objectively lousy deals, rather than simply hard-to-justify luxuries.

Free software is much, much more than just the freedom to pick and choose the components of one system (although frequently results as a consequence). Loads of proprietary systems allow that as well. No free software proponent would complain if, for instance, Windows were made free (as in the four freedoms, not simply gratis), and plenty of people accept DEs that are fairly restraining (GNOME3 and Unity, from what I've heard of Unity). It's nice that there is choice, but the principle is that it must be a choice with freedom.


Of course. My other points are independent of software freedom although they often coincide - e.g. modularity becomes more attractive compared to integration when you can freely use other people's stuff.
Gnome 3 and Unity sacrifice open-endedness and easy tweakabiliy, but Linux itself is modular.
If Unity doesn't work for you, you still have Gnome Shell, KDE, XFCE, LXDE, Enlightenment, Cinnamon or Mate. And that's just the more known complete desktop environments, with maybe a hundred actively maintained window managers the possibilities are endless if you prefer minimalism or want to roll your own.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Jul 19, 2012 1:25 pm UTC

Arariel wrote:Not to mention that much of what's been discussed only really applies to laptops. Is it at all defensible to purchase an Apple desktop?

This is a totally different discussion, but no, it's not, because for the vast majority of people it's barely defensible to purchase a desktop at all.

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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:30 pm UTC

I forgot part of my point about it seeming like many Mac users don't even realize there are other computer manufacturers or operating systems; the only thing more ridiculous than Apple charging $200 for 8 GB of hynix ram is the idea that anyone would ever actually buy it.

I am not sure how many people do that, but I would expect it to be 0, there is no excuse whatsoever for it. There is no possible way to justify ever spending that much for ram from any manufacturer unless it comes with a handjob and a pony, is there?
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:41 pm UTC

Max™ wrote:I forgot part of my point about it seeming like many Mac users don't even realize there are other computer manufacturers or operating systems; the only thing more ridiculous than Apple charging $200 for 8 GB of hynix ram is the idea that anyone would ever actually buy it.

I am not sure how many people do that, but I would expect it to be 0, there is no excuse whatsoever for it. There is no possible way to justify ever spending that much for ram from any manufacturer unless it comes with a handjob and a pony, is there?

When it's soldered to the board, yes.

Beyond that, no.

But no, I don't think many or any Mac users are unaware of other computer manufacturers or operating systems. Surely they leave their houses or have friends or jobs or something where they might see another computer?

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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Steax » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:00 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
Arariel wrote:Not to mention that much of what's been discussed only really applies to laptops. Is it at all defensible to purchase an Apple desktop?

This is a totally different discussion, but no, it's not, because for the vast majority of people it's barely defensible to purchase a desktop at all.


I'll admit that I'm very far from the vast majority: I have an iMac because I have a very specific need. I needn't a mobile device due to my iPad, I needed a Mac for programming purposes, and I needed a large and color-accurate screen for design work. In fact, the MacBook Pro and the iMac are so similarly spec'd at the same price point, I'm convinced it's simply a tradeoff between a big screen and a mobile device.

I think this part of the debate is clearly confirmed by sales information, as well. The iMac sales are well below Macbooks, which are well below iPhones, which are well below iPads.

--

And yes, very few people buy those RAM upgrades. But for iMacs, you can install your own RAM, which makes that point moot, and for MacBooks, you can't install your own RAM at all for a fairly good reason: its unibody design makes it a tricky task.

I think most Mac users are well aware of it. The Mac has only risen back in the last 5 years or so, the intensive part considerably less. There's just no way.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:30 pm UTC

You can install RAM in non-retina MacBook Pros, you just need to get a Phillips screwdriver to open it up (and a spudger helps to disconnect the battery). It's not actually difficult at all once you're inside. MacBook Airs and the new retina Pro have the RAM soldered, so, while you can similarly open the machines up, you won't get too far trying to swap RAM.

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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Max™ » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:45 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:You can install RAM in non-retina MacBook Pros, you just need to get a Phillips screwdriver to open it up (and a spudger helps to disconnect the battery). It's not actually difficult at all once you're inside. MacBook Airs and the new retina Pro have the RAM soldered, so, while you can similarly open the machines up, you won't get too far trying to swap RAM.

O.o
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Steax » Thu Jul 19, 2012 3:53 pm UTC

I never actually managed to get it open... Well I did, once, mostly by accidental tinkering, but I was also really afraid of damaging the warranty.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Endless Mike » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:25 pm UTC

Max™ wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:You can install RAM in non-retina MacBook Pros, you just need to get a Phillips screwdriver to open it up (and a spudger helps to disconnect the battery). It's not actually difficult at all once you're inside. MacBook Airs and the new retina Pro have the RAM soldered, so, while you can similarly open the machines up, you won't get too far trying to swap RAM.

O.o

Sockets are bigger and thicker than soldering the chips directly to the board. If you open one up, you quickly find that they're basically a small board with a huge battery attached. I would imagine this is not uncommon in the Ultrabook space (though I do think it's a mistake with the retina MBP).

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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby Iranon » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:27 pm UTC

About desktops not being justifiable: Easy component replacement, ergonomics

Admittedly, the latter would be moot with a "luggable all-in-one" in briefcase format like the Dell XPS 2010. A detachable keyboard and the handle folding out to raise the monitor to a comfortable height were a great idea.
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Re: Linux vs Windows vs Mac

Postby KnightExemplar » Thu Jul 19, 2012 4:31 pm UTC

Endless Mike wrote:
Max™ wrote:
Endless Mike wrote:You can install RAM in non-retina MacBook Pros, you just need to get a Phillips screwdriver to open it up (and a spudger helps to disconnect the battery). It's not actually difficult at all once you're inside. MacBook Airs and the new retina Pro have the RAM soldered, so, while you can similarly open the machines up, you won't get too far trying to swap RAM.

O.o

Sockets are bigger and thicker than soldering the chips directly to the board. If you open one up, you quickly find that they're basically a small board with a huge battery attached. I would imagine this is not uncommon in the Ultrabook space (though I do think it's a mistake with the retina MBP).


It makes me wonder though. According to this teardown, the MacBook Pro does have a SSD daughter card. So... you already have a modular card making the thing thicker, how much thicker do you have to be to have a RAM socket? Those things are pretty thin...
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