Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby d3adf001 » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:08 am UTC

davean wrote:Hah, you know how much it costs to keep RAM powered up? How much each extra cycle costs you? How much each disk hit costs? How much the very minimalistic HW profile that adapts dynamically to needs helps? No, 50% is not particularly impressive. Those numbers weren't Religious war exaggerations or bias views, those are the actual hard numbers I'm pulling from my battery and seeing reflected in run time. Ubuntu has so much needless stuff going on, HW being active when it isn't needed, all sorts of things. Its crazy for a laptop. If you aren't using the audio card, why is it powered up? And, why have Binaries take up 400MBs of RAM when they can take up 40, thats a lot less frequent disk accesses.


so this is the same laptop running the same exact stuff, but some how you shrunk it 10x?

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby photosinensis » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:49 am UTC

I'm just going to say it now: I use Ubuntu because all of the other distros are used almost exclusively by pricks and assholes, and the documentation on those distros is terrible.
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning,
And my heart was filled with mournng, mourning for my dear amour.
"'Tis not possible!" I uttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!"
Quoth the server: 404.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby Dingbats » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:51 am UTC

photosinensis wrote:I'm just going to say it now: I use Ubuntu because all of the other distros are used almost exclusively by pricks and assholes, and the documentation on those distros is terrible.

Yeah, and I use Ubuntu because it works more or less without problems for me. Maybe it wouldn't suit my needs if I were a supergeek, but since I'm not I don't see anything wrong with it.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby rcunn87 » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:28 am UTC

Out of Fedora [core] [6-8], Ubuntu, and Gentoo I tend to like fedora. It has always worked more or less for me. I know thats the theory behind Ubuntu, but there is something that I did not like about it the few times I tried. As for Gentoo, I never really had the time/the spare computer with the internet, for the troubleshooting, to get it running with X. Portage would not let me have gnome/kde. So in my need for an operating system I think I installed Xp and then again reinstalled Fedora when i had the time again.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby Korandder » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:42 am UTC

I started off with Fedora but switched to Ubuntu. Maybe it was Linux distros all becoming more polished, but I found Ubuntu a lot less of a hassle to get things set up the way I wanted them than Fedora was. The only other distros I ever used are various versions of Red Hat and Scientific Linux at work.
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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby davean » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:09 am UTC

d3adf001 wrote:
davean wrote:Hah, you know how much it costs to keep RAM powered up? How much each extra cycle costs you? How much each disk hit costs? How much the very minimalistic HW profile that adapts dynamically to needs helps? No, 50% is not particularly impressive. Those numbers weren't Religious war exaggerations or bias views, those are the actual hard numbers I'm pulling from my battery and seeing reflected in run time. Ubuntu has so much needless stuff going on, HW being active when it isn't needed, all sorts of things. Its crazy for a laptop. If you aren't using the audio card, why is it powered up? And, why have Binaries take up 400MBs of RAM when they can take up 40, thats a lot less frequent disk accesses.


so this is the same laptop running the same exact stuff, but some how you shrunk it 10x?


Ubuntu enabled a lot of extraneous code, they build in the support code for a lot of features that you'll never, ever use on any given computer. Thats half the point of compiling from source and the entire point of use flags. For almost any given source package there are 10-50 option feature flags of code you can build in or leave out. Ubuntu just builds all that extra crap in; its basically a requirement of binary distribution or you'd have 2^features different binaries for each package.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby Ghorthas » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:09 am UTC

I have my own modified source build system I use for those machines that need lower resources. The only problem is those machines are slower anyways, and would take ages to compile, so I use distcc. If you really wanted the "ultimate" customized system you'd build your own system from source. :-P I personally dislike Gentoo for a lot of reasons. Whenever I've used it I seem to get lots of broken ebuilds. The time I spent screwing with gentoo I could have rolled my own system, so that's what I did. In some SPECIALIZED applications source distros make sense, I'm really not sure HOW much power you really save, I am a little skeptical of the gains you claim. However I do know that slimmer distros use less power. Even then for most home users I still think source distros are a waste of time.

photosinensis wrote:I'm just going to say it now: I use Ubuntu because all of the other distros are used almost exclusively by pricks and assholes, and the documentation on those distros is terrible.


..... About that... I don't think that comment even merits a response, it just makes me feel sorry for you. :(

I hope you're joking, I saw you talk about Debian before! There are plenty of assholes in the world and a few may be in open source projects. You are an example of this. What kind of person, except someone who is an ass, would say such a generalized statement about every other distro than their chosen one. So if you really are a Ubuntu user you can be one person who adds to the asshole count for that distro. However, I have a feeling you're just trying to get people going, and you're screwing around.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby Hammer » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:16 pm UTC

Ghorthas wrote:..... About that... I don't think that comment even merits a response, it just makes me feel sorry for you. :(

I hope you're joking, I saw you talk about Debian before! There are plenty of assholes in the world and a few may be in open source projects. You are an example of this. What kind of person, except someone who is an ass, would say such a generalized statement about every other distro than their chosen one. So if you really are a Ubuntu user you can be one person who adds to the asshole count for that distro. However, I have a feeling you're just trying to get people going, and you're screwing around.


* notes Ghorthas' post count *
* points at the Board title *
* suggests that Ghorthas have a look around and get the feel of the place before succumbing to disappointment and despair *
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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby LikwidCirkel » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:01 pm UTC

Like many Linux newbies, I started with Ubuntu. I'm actually still using it, and it has it's benefits and drawbacks.

It certainly works out of the box quite well, and requires little tinkering. I want to move beyond it though for a few reasons.

Most importantly, about 95% of the packages and 99% of the drivers in the default installation I will never have any need for, so they're just taking up space and resources.

It has no "custom installer" and the closest that it gets is allowing a minimal command-line system. I tried this, so that I could install only what I needed, but I couldn't figure it out. Installing X.org is not as simple as using aptitude and letting it do all the dirty work.

I'm also finding myself using apt less and less, because it doesn't always have what I want, and in many cases, has archaic versions of software. There is also no "developer loophole" in binary packages, allowing marginally legal things, like support for certain codecs or protocalls in my multimedia apps.

It also pisses me off how there are so many things that have a GUI frontend, that doesn't do anything. You STILL have to go and edit a text file One or the other is fine, but I would like to know which method will actually work. There seems to be tons of leftover config files that do nothing other than take up space. This is really annoying in some cases where I don't know which one to use.

I would say that Ubuntu is probably one of the best free operating systems for people who just want a cheap break from Windows. For people who want control, and appreciate only having things that you'll actually use, I wouldn't recommend it.

I just don't know what distro to try anymore. I need to be able to use proprietary drivers (nvidia), and things like alien seem invaluable.

I also like that _EVERYTHING_ is in most debian-based repos. You can't say that about Slackware. An advantage of Slackware though, is that there will usually be just ONE program for a particular purpose in the repos, and you know it will be a good one. With Debian/Ubuntu, there will be 40, and only 2 that are any good.

That's what source-code is for I guess.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby photosinensis » Thu Nov 22, 2007 6:35 pm UTC

Ghorthas wrote:
photosinensis wrote:I'm just going to say it now: I use Ubuntu because all of the other distros are used almost exclusively by pricks and assholes, and the documentation on those distros is terrible.


..... About that... I don't think that comment even merits a response, it just makes me feel sorry for you. :(

I hope you're joking, I saw you talk about Debian before! There are plenty of assholes in the world and a few may be in open source projects. You are an example of this. What kind of person, except someone who is an ass, would say such a generalized statement about every other distro than their chosen one. So if you really are a Ubuntu user you can be one person who adds to the asshole count for that distro. However, I have a feeling you're just trying to get people going, and you're screwing around.


Yes, I mean that partially in jest: not everybody who uses [insert distro here] is an asshole. For example, I started my Linux habit over on Fedora Core (back in the days when it was called that and was a brand new distro), and the only reason I switched to Ubuntu is because I wanted to try out a Debian-based system. I stayed on Ubuntu partially because I found the Debian style quite nice to maintain and partially because the community was helpful and friendly--it actually bothered to respond to my bug reports, and was able to let me know if mine was a duplicate! Even Fedora at the time just closed duplicate bugs without much notice to the filer. It's just that some distros seem to have more than their fair share of assholes in their communities: stock Debian and Gentoo both suffer from this to such an extreme that the communities around them are practically useless.
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning,
And my heart was filled with mournng, mourning for my dear amour.
"'Tis not possible!" I uttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!"
Quoth the server: 404.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby zenten » Thu Nov 22, 2007 9:12 pm UTC

LikwidCirkel wrote:Like many Linux newbies, I started with Ubuntu. I'm actually still using it, and it has it's benefits and drawbacks.

It certainly works out of the box quite well, and requires little tinkering. I want to move beyond it though for a few reasons.

Most importantly, about 95% of the packages and 99% of the drivers in the default installation I will never have any need for, so they're just taking up space and resources.

It has no "custom installer" and the closest that it gets is allowing a minimal command-line system. I tried this, so that I could install only what I needed, but I couldn't figure it out. Installing X.org is not as simple as using aptitude and letting it do all the dirty work.


What sort of problems have you run into with just installing what you want from the command line, and letting the dependencies resolve themselves?

LikwidCirkel wrote:I'm also finding myself using apt less and less, because it doesn't always have what I want, and in many cases, has archaic versions of software. There is also no "developer loophole" in binary packages, allowing marginally legal things, like support for certain codecs or protocalls in my multimedia apps.


Sure there is, just add a repository that handles it.

LikwidCirkel wrote:It also pisses me off how there are so many things that have a GUI frontend, that doesn't do anything. You STILL have to go and edit a text file One or the other is fine, but I would like to know which method will actually work. There seems to be tons of leftover config files that do nothing other than take up space. This is really annoying in some cases where I don't know which one to use.


Wouldn't that be true for those programs on any distro?

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby LikwidCirkel » Fri Nov 23, 2007 7:41 pm UTC

zenten wrote:What sort of problems have you run into with just installing what you want from the command line, and letting the dependencies resolve themselves?

I didn't try it for long, but it didn't work from just installing xserver, or xserver-xorg. I'd probably have to install some window manager too, and a session manager. Maybe things like GDM too. It just made me decide that it wasn't worth the time at that moment

zenten wrote:
LikwidCirkel wrote:I'm also finding myself using apt less and less, because it doesn't always have what I want, and in many cases, has archaic versions of software. There is also no "developer loophole" in binary packages, allowing marginally legal things, like support for certain codecs or protocalls in my multimedia apps.


Sure there is, just add a repository that handles it.

I'm rather sure that there is no repository that has things like Kino with Quicktime (don't ask me why I needed that), or Ardour with VST support. I also would like to get some beta features sometimes, like midi editing in Ardour, and I think that's only on the head, but no official release.

zenten wrote:
LikwidCirkel wrote:It also pisses me off how there are so many things that have a GUI frontend, that doesn't do anything. You STILL have to go and edit a text file One or the other is fine, but I would like to know which method will actually work. There seems to be tons of leftover config files that do nothing other than take up space. This is really annoying in some cases where I don't know which one to use.


Wouldn't that be true for those programs on any distro?

Well, I assume that the GUI dialogs must work with SOME distro right? Otherwise why would they even be there? I think the only example that I have is samba under Kubuntu. but I know that I've encountered settings in KDE that do absolutely nothing (except perhaps modify the wrong text file). I can only assume that these features work in an environment where KDE is mostly developed, perhaps Suse. They might have actually fixed it with the recent Ubuntu releases, but it certainly didn't work when I started with 6.06.

I'm learning more about Linux every day.... But as always, it only ever comes down to using the right tools for the right job.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby !xobile » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:00 am UTC

Personally I have been using Suse since 8.1, now on openSuse 10.3, and i couldn't be happier.
I found it to be a great distro to learn on, but no one seems to suggest it to people. Whats up with that?

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby EvanED » Mon Nov 26, 2007 4:22 am UTC

!xobile wrote:Personally I have been using Suse since 8.1, now on openSuse 10.3, and i couldn't be happier.
I found it to be a great distro to learn on, but no one seems to suggest it to people. Whats up with that?

I used to hear it suggested somewhat regularly, but I think the Novell-MS deal has made a lot of people hesitant to do so.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby AlexCrafter » Mon Nov 26, 2007 6:55 pm UTC

Vixta is a fairly new linux distro and I like it although I wouldnt use it on my primary computer, maybe they can get it off the ground as something other than just vista like flashy graphics, then it will be a high quality distro capable of competing with windows.

ReactOS is a distro aimed at being as compatable as windows, their kernel is designed to run exe files, but they havnt focused on graphics as of yet.

If ReactOS and Vixta joined forces it would be an exelent day for me and a bad day for windows.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby Ghorthas » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:20 pm UTC

Hammer wrote:
Ghorthas wrote:..... About that... I don't think that comment even merits a response, it just makes me feel sorry for you. :(

I hope you're joking, I saw you talk about Debian before! There are plenty of assholes in the world and a few may be in open source projects. You are an example of this. What kind of person, except someone who is an ass, would say such a generalized statement about every other distro than their chosen one. So if you really are a Ubuntu user you can be one person who adds to the asshole count for that distro. However, I have a feeling you're just trying to get people going, and you're screwing around.


* notes Ghorthas' post count *
* points at the Board title *
* suggests that Ghorthas have a look around and get the feel of the place before succumbing to disappointment and despair *



I wasn't trying to make a personal attack although rereading my post it sounds that way. That's what I get for somnambulistic posting.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby Hammer » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:25 pm UTC

Ghorthas wrote:I wasn't trying to make a personal attack although rereading my post it sounds that way. That's what I get for somnambulistic posting.

You're OK. I just wanted to catch you before you got too upset with photosinensis, who is a pretty good guy. The post you quote is indeed extreme, but I think it leans more towards teasing than trolling. :D
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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby crazyjimbo » Mon Nov 26, 2007 9:28 pm UTC

AlexCrafter wrote:Vixta is a fairly new linux distro and I like it although I wouldnt use it on my primary computer, maybe they can get it off the ground as something other than just vista like flashy graphics, then it will be a high quality distro capable of competing with windows.

ReactOS is a distro aimed at being as compatable as windows, their kernel is designed to run exe files, but they havnt focused on graphics as of yet.

If ReactOS and Vixta joined forces it would be an exelent day for me and a bad day for windows.


Linux isn't Windows! Nor is it trying to be. Nor should it try to be. If you want to use Windows, use Windows and don't try to imitate it with Linux. Please.

EDIT: Hmmm, I sound very like a fanatic. I don't care that much, but I hate seeing people trying to use inferior tools for the job. And Linux is very inferior at being Windows.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby photosinensis » Mon Nov 26, 2007 11:09 pm UTC

AlexCrafter wrote:Vixta is a fairly new linux distro and I like it although I wouldnt use it on my primary computer, maybe they can get it off the ground as something other than just vista like flashy graphics, then it will be a high quality distro capable of competing with windows.

ReactOS is a distro aimed at being as compatable as windows, their kernel is designed to run exe files, but they havnt focused on graphics as of yet.

If ReactOS and Vixta joined forces it would be an exelent day for me and a bad day for windows.


ReactOS has nothing to do with Linux. It is an attempt to create a free/open source version of Windows NT. Think of it as to Windows XP as GNU/Linux is to Unix. The kernel is designed in a similar manner to the Windows kernel, and its ABI attempts to be identical to the Windows XP ABI, allowing for full binary compatibility between Windows and ReactOS. The one Linux-related thing that React does is that in their effort to recreate the Windows XP ABI, they essentially create code that can be taken by the WINE project for its compatibility layer. This is a problem because the WinXP ABI is a large, amorphous, and highly mobile target. Microsoft does not want WINE and ReactOS to exist, and will actively do things to thwart the goals of those projects without acknowledging those projects' existence.

GNU/Linux is not Windows. People looking for a Windows experience without the beast of Microsoft are probably not going to find themselves incredibly welcome by Linux developers and GNU/Linux users. At the end of the day, you'll be better off with the ReactOS project or sticking with Windows.

What's more, flashy graphics are available quite readily (usually by default where possible) on almost every GNU/Linux distro. Furthermore, those flashy graphics are actually more useful than anything you'll see in WinVista. But this is the distro war thread, not the OS war thread.

The short version is that Linux is basically a drop-in replacement for Unix, not a replacement for Windows. Yes, you can replace Windows with Unix, and you'd be better off for ditching the Beast, but realize that Windows and *nix represent vastly different worlds.

crazyjimbo wrote:EDIT: Hmmm, I sound very like a fanatic. I don't care that much, but I hate seeing people trying to use inferior tools for the job. And Linux is very inferior at being Windows.


Didn't you get the memo? Sounding like a fanatic/extremist is what this particular board is for! Just make sure you don't take yourself (or anyone else) too seriously--doing so may be hazardous to your mental health.
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning,
And my heart was filled with mournng, mourning for my dear amour.
"'Tis not possible!" I uttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!"
Quoth the server: 404.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby failed assertion » Tue Nov 27, 2007 1:09 am UTC

I use Arch. Switched from Gentoo when I had to set up my new MythTV box. The old one ran Gentoo, and I tried to do Gentoo Hardened with PaX/grsecurity for the new box. I spent a week working on it and never got the nVidia binary drivers to install. When I discovered that Arch had a mirror three miles from my house, I decided to give it a shot. I wiped the root partition and threw in the Arch CD. Three hours later (working during commercial breaks) I was up and running. I like Arch because it doesn't force you to make as many decisions as Gentoo (or Debian, for that matter) does, but it also doesn't come with any wizards or GUI magic. I don't believe in magic.

The fact that I routinely get over a meg a second from the local mirror doesn't hurt any, either. :D

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby b.i.o » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:41 am UTC

failed assertion wrote:The fact that I routinely get over a meg a second from the local mirror doesn't hurt any, either. :D


I was getting 7 a second earlier today when I downloaded the OpenSUSE DVD .iso (I want to see what it's like). It was beautiful. :D

I think it's the first time I've actually had a server bottlenecked by the limits of my connection at college instead of the other way around.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby photosinensis » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:42 am UTC

Silver2Falcon wrote:I was getting 7 a second earlier today when I downloaded the OpenSUSE DVD .iso (I want to see what it's like). It was beautiful. :D


That's what happens when the parent company sucks up to the ten million pound evil dragon in the room.
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning,
And my heart was filled with mournng, mourning for my dear amour.
"'Tis not possible!" I uttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!"
Quoth the server: 404.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby davean » Tue Nov 27, 2007 11:36 am UTC

photosinensis wrote:The short version is that Linux is basically a drop-in replacement for Unix, not a replacement for Windows. Yes, you can replace Windows with Unix, and you'd be better off for ditching the Beast, but realize that Windows and *nix represent vastly different worlds.



Hell no it ain't; they couldn't even get the basic ABI right.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby photosinensis » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:02 pm UTC

davean wrote:Hell no it ain't; they couldn't even get the basic ABI right.


Okay, for certain values of "drop-in replacement". It's mostly source compatible, but anyone using system commands will probably run into snags.

To be fair, for any given pair of Unixen that run on the same hardware, Unix A will (generally) not be binary compatible with Unix B.
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning,
And my heart was filled with mournng, mourning for my dear amour.
"'Tis not possible!" I uttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!"
Quoth the server: 404.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby Ghorthas » Tue Nov 27, 2007 3:28 pm UTC

I love Unix B. It is the best *nix distro ever.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby davean » Tue Nov 27, 2007 5:28 pm UTC

photosinensis wrote:To be fair, for any given pair of Unixen that run on the same hardware, Unix A will (generally) not be binary compatible with Unix B.


No, half decently written programs *will* be binary compatible. Thats the point of the spec. System programs may not be but user space ones should be.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby b.i.o » Tue Nov 27, 2007 6:02 pm UTC

photosinensis wrote:
Silver2Falcon wrote:I was getting 7 a second earlier today when I downloaded the OpenSUSE DVD .iso (I want to see what it's like). It was beautiful. :D


That's what happens when the parent company sucks up to the ten million pound evil dragon in the room.


Heh, true.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby d3adf001 » Tue Nov 27, 2007 8:17 pm UTC

failed assertion wrote:I use Arch. Switched from Gentoo when I had to set up my new MythTV box. The old one ran Gentoo, and I tried to do Gentoo Hardened with PaX/grsecurity for the new box. I spent a week working on it and never got the nVidia binary drivers to install. When I discovered that Arch had a mirror three miles from my house, I decided to give it a shot. I wiped the root partition and threw in the Arch CD. Three hours later (working during commercial breaks) I was up and running. I like Arch because it doesn't force you to make as many decisions as Gentoo (or Debian, for that matter) does, but it also doesn't come with any wizards or GUI magic. I don't believe in magic.

The fact that I routinely get over a meg a second from the local mirror doesn't hurt any, either. :D


ive always wanted to try arch or frugalware (slackware with pacman)

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby Doodle77 » Wed Nov 28, 2007 2:48 am UTC

I use Debian because if I was using Ubuntu, i would just end up adding the Debian repository to my sources.list .

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby photosinensis » Wed Nov 28, 2007 3:00 am UTC

Doodle77 wrote:I use Debian because if I was using Ubuntu, i would just end up adding the Debian repository to my sources.list .


That is an Amazingly Bad Idea. Do you have any idea how much package breakage you'd get? No, it's safer to add universe and multiverse to the sources.list. With all four sets (main, restricted, universe, and multiverse), you've essentially got most of what's in Debian, with a few packages removed because they're kinda pointless on a *buntu system.

Seriously, the only things in main are the default installs for the official *buntus and the development tools. It's just the list of what you can get commercial support for, and not the be-all, end-all of what's available for *buntu.
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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby Pobega » Wed Nov 28, 2007 5:44 am UTC

I personally use Debian testing with a splash of unstable. I think Debian is the greatest distribution in all of GNU/Linux-land; A very powerful package manager combined with multitudes of packages (I think the number is over 18,000 now), a great community (the Debian-User mailing list), and some great ideas (Check out the Debian social contract)

I started with Ubuntu (it came pre-configured with my laptop) but decided that it was too slow, and the community was way too immature/young, so I moved on to a more mature, developed distribution where I can feel at home. And I found my home in Debian!

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby rwald » Thu Nov 29, 2007 4:58 am UTC

I use Gentoo, mainly for the reasons crazyjimbo has mentioned (USE flags, great documentation, understanding what's going on with my system to a greater extent). However, I've got a few servers running Ubuntu; Gentoo's fun to play with on my laptop, but for a machine I don't want to mess with too often, it's too much trouble.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby Jach » Thu Nov 29, 2007 10:23 am UTC

I use Gentoo and Ubuntu. My reasons for Gentoo have pretty much already been said (optimization (this is a craptop), learning, etc.), but I have had a few odd problems with it--but those were fixed by compiling the kernel to the latest version.

Ubuntu's kind of my "I want this done and I want it now without any errors cropping up". But with the release of Gutsy, Ubuntu seemed to really slug down, and I might have to downgrade back to Feisty. (One annoying Ubuntu thing is that I have to go in and change the resolv.conf file every time I log in to get on the internet. The problem was there in Dapper, but was gone in Edgy and Feisty, but now it's back.)

I should be getting a new computer for Christmas, but I'm debating on what I should put on it. I'm thinking I'll throw Ubuntu on there to play around with Compiz and the like instantly, and maybe either leave partition space for a future Gentoo installation or just wipe it all someday. It's always fun watching random bits of code fly down the screen for 15 hours!
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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby FACM » Thu Nov 29, 2007 7:09 pm UTC

I'm currently a Gentoo user. Previously used Slackware, Mandrake, Debian, and Ubuntu.

I'm using Gentoo specifically because it's difficult. I had Ubuntu for quite a while, but I got bored with it because things were too simple. I use Linux mostly as a project to tinker around with. It's fun and educational. So far I've only managed to break the kernel 3 times (and learned how to use chroot to fix it. I said it was educational).

Sometimes, waiting hours for big packages to recompile with a new USE flag on is a little irritating, but sometimes I need the excuse to walk away from the computer.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby wing » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:17 am UTC

At this moment, I am trying to figure out exactly why I installed Ubuntu. I've been staring at a kernel compile for the past half hour (no, not because I needed support for more stuff - because I got sick and tired of blowing RAM and disk space on options for hardware that has no physical chance of ever being connected to this laptop)

Speaking of such, it just finished.
Yay, now to install it and find out what I forgot (best part, coming right up!)
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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby photosinensis » Sat Dec 01, 2007 6:29 am UTC

wing wrote:At this moment, I am trying to figure out exactly why I installed Ubuntu. I've been staring at a kernel compile for the past half hour (no, not because I needed support for more stuff - because I got sick and tired of blowing RAM and disk space on options for hardware that has no physical chance of ever being connected to this laptop)


I hate (re)compiling kernels. This is why I stick with the kernel that comes with the binary distribution.

FACM wrote:Sometimes, waiting hours for big packages to recompile with a new USE flag on is a little irritating, but sometimes I need the excuse to walk away from the computer.


You, sir or madam, are everything that is wrong with the typical Gentoo user. Use flags do not make your computer faster. They do not reduce size or memory usage. Anyone telling you otherwise is lying to you. Compiling your own binaries won't improve performance either. That last one can be tested.

What I propose is this: I've currently got a stock install of Ubuntu running in Parallels. I'll do a stage 1 install of Gentoo in a secondary VM. We'll then run some code that I've already written to perform some benchmarks on my Mac, but is entirely compatible with Linux as well. I'll post the code and the results here. We will then run some math on the results (we're gonna run the code multiple times: it uses a pseudorandom number generator to add two large matrices) and check for an Honestly Significant Difference between the results and it turns out that there is one in Gentoo's favor, I'll consent that you're not a kool-aid drinking troll.
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning,
And my heart was filled with mournng, mourning for my dear amour.
"'Tis not possible!" I uttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!"
Quoth the server: 404.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby cypherpunk » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:09 am UTC

Ubuntu has never worked on the hardware I've tried to install it on.

Gentoo has never failed on the hardware I've tried to install it on.

Also: what's with all the shit that's included in a default Ubuntu install? GNOME? What do I need that for? Graphical configuration tools? Break easily, and I can do it by hand quicker anyway.

Gentoo was also a good learning experience for me. I can't really quantify it very well, but I (the Gentoo user) have a much better understanding of what's going on on my computer than my Ubuntu using comrades (with the same educational background (namely Comp Sci)). So nyah.
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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby photosinensis » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:16 am UTC

cypherpunk wrote:Also: what's with all the shit that's included in a default Ubuntu install? GNOME? What do I need that for? Graphical configuration tools? Break easily, and I can do it by hand quicker anyway.


Try reading XKCD without X.

Now if you don't want a graphical environment, don't install one. Grab the server disks instead--they'll be more for your liking. And stop knocking on graphical configuration tools provided by default: the command line equivalents are right fucking there, and you can remove the utilities far more quickly than you can compile something new in Gentoo.

cypherpunk wrote:Gentoo was also a good learning experience for me. I can't really quantify it very well, but I (the Gentoo user) have a much better understanding of what's going on on my computer than my Ubuntu using comrades (with the same educational background (namely Comp Sci)). So nyah.


Orly? I honestly don't believe you. I've been using Ubuntu since before it's original release. I've done a fair amount of playing on that system, and have broken it in every way possible, then put it back together again--intentionally. It's far more likely that your comrades just don't give a damn about what's going on with their computers. They just want something that works for them. That said, I'd be willing to put my knowledge of any of my systems up against yours any day. Sure, I've forgotten a lot about my system (haven't really played with hardware in quite a few years, and have kept conf files since the last time I made modifications), but I'll be willing to bet that what I've forgotten > what you've ever known.
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning,
And my heart was filled with mournng, mourning for my dear amour.
"'Tis not possible!" I uttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!"
Quoth the server: 404.

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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby cypherpunk » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:25 am UTC

photosinensis wrote:
cypherpunk wrote:Also: what's with all the shit that's included in a default Ubuntu install? GNOME? What do I need that for? Graphical configuration tools? Break easily, and I can do it by hand quicker anyway.


Try reading XKCD without X.

Now if you don't want a graphical environment, don't install one. Grab the server disks instead--they'll be more for your liking. And stop knocking on graphical configuration tools provided by default: the command line equivalents are right fucking there, and you can remove the utilities far more quickly than you can compile something new in Gentoo.

cypherpunk wrote:Gentoo was also a good learning experience for me. I can't really quantify it very well, but I (the Gentoo user) have a much better understanding of what's going on on my computer than my Ubuntu using comrades (with the same educational background (namely Comp Sci)). So nyah.


Orly? I honestly don't believe you. I've been using Ubuntu since before it's original release. I've done a fair amount of playing on that system, and have broken it in every way possible, then put it back together again--intentionally. It's far more likely that your comrades just don't give a damn about what's going on with their computers. They just want something that works for them. That said, I'd be willing to put my knowledge of any of my systems up against yours any day. Sure, I've forgotten a lot about my system (haven't really played with hardware in quite a few years, and have kept conf files since the last time I made modifications), but I'll be willing to bet that what I've forgotten > what you've ever known.


Wow. You're rather an angry one, aren't you?

Let's see... did I say I didn't want X? Nope. Just don't want the entire GNOME desktop environment. I need GTK and QT, of course for apps. But I don't need a DE/file browser/etc... All I need is Enlightenment or fluxbox. Of course, I believe I could fetch the current image from the command line, then use lpr to send the image out to a printer, all without X. ;)

Did I say I knew more than everyone? Again: no. I just related an anecdote pointing out that, IMO, you learn some good things from using Gentoo. It's the reason I started using it in the first place. Can you learn the same things in other distros? Most likely, but Gentoo makes you do it whether you want to or not. :P

And I've never seen any kind of speed increase from using it, so I'm not even gonna try to claim that one.
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Re: Distro Whores...I mean Distro Wars!

Postby photosinensis » Sat Dec 01, 2007 7:46 am UTC

cypherpunk wrote:Wow. You're rather an angry one, aren't you?


Gee, ya think? I'm so fucking sick of Gentoo users acting high and mighty because they took forever to compile something themselves, and thus claim to know far more about their system than everyone else. All you did was type "emerge foo" and it compiled foo for you. Whoop-de-fucking-do. You've not built it yourself. Try, on the other hand, doing LFS. Now that will teach you something. I won't even give you grief for using Slack--it's an amazing system, really. I've done the same on my Debian system, but the command is a little different: apt-src install foo.

cypherpunk wrote:Let's see... did I say I didn't want X? Nope. Just don't want the entire GNOME desktop environment. I need GTK and QT, of course for apps. But I don't need a DE/file browser/etc... All I need is Enlightenment or fluxbox. Of course, I believe I could fetch the current image from the command line, then use lpr to send the image out to a printer, all without X. ;)


Then fucking install Enlightemnent or Fluxbox! And yes, you can fetch the current image from the command line then use lpr to send the image to the printer, but that kills trees. Granted, displaying on a monitor burns fossil fuels, unless you're in Europe or Japan where the entire grid is nuclear, in which case you've got another set of problems.

cypherpunk wrote:Did I say I knew more than everyone? Again: no. I just related an anecdote pointing out that, IMO, you learn some good things from using Gentoo. It's the reason I started using it in the first place. Can you learn the same things in other distros? Most likely, but Gentoo makes you do it whether you want to or not. :P


Not. Really. The installer is fairly plain. Unless you're doing the expert-only stage 1/3 install (like I'm doing right now for my benchmark mentioned earlier), it's pretty much the Same Damn Thing--no extra learning.
While I clicked my fav'rite bookmark, suddenly there came a warning,
And my heart was filled with mournng, mourning for my dear amour.
"'Tis not possible!" I uttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!"
Quoth the server: 404.


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