The ultimate programming language flamewar

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Hammer
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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby Hammer » Wed Nov 21, 2007 9:40 pm UTC

davean wrote:
Hammer wrote:
btilly wrote:PS For the record, the first time that I developed a complicated web page that sent its data as JavaScript and then turned that into HTML on the client side was 2000. Yes, it turned out to be a really bad idea.

Oh me yarm... HTML thats calls CGI that writes HTML that calls Javascript that submits to CGI that... OWWWWWW!!!! I remember the pain....
* crawls away *


Ah, we've found a weakness!

* prepares the begging-for-mercy suit *
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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby photosinensis » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:04 am UTC

Hammer wrote:
davean wrote:
Hammer wrote:
btilly wrote:PS For the record, the first time that I developed a complicated web page that sent its data as JavaScript and then turned that into HTML on the client side was 2000. Yes, it turned out to be a really bad idea.

Oh me yarm... HTML thats calls CGI that writes HTML that calls Javascript that submits to CGI that... OWWWWWW!!!! I remember the pain....
* crawls away *


Ah, we've found a weakness!

* prepares the begging-for-mercy suit *


Now that? Is just plain evil. There's no need for that.

Let's just get back to th
xyzzy wrote:This debate is rather irrelevant, as lisp and scheme are the only true languages anyway.


Scheme is a Lisp. Therefore, you've merely said that Lisp is the only true language. And while I agree that it's a very powerful and effective language, the parentheses totally suck. There are just too damn many of them. No, give me my curly braces, please.
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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby Rysto » Thu Nov 22, 2007 3:26 am UTC

I will never understand why Lisp/Scheme gets all of the hype when there exists languages like ML which have much nicer syntax, static type inference and a lot more features for creating new data types.

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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby btilly » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:35 am UTC

Rysto wrote:I will never understand why Lisp/Scheme gets all of the hype when there exists languages like ML which have much nicer syntax, static type inference and a lot more features for creating new data types.


You've also never read On Lisp.
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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby EvanED » Thu Nov 22, 2007 4:52 am UTC

Rysto wrote:I will never understand why Lisp/Scheme gets all of the hype when there exists languages like ML which have much nicer syntax, static type inference and a lot more features for creating new data types.

Static typing is one of those religious issues that isn't always correct.

Plus, Lisp has powerful macros. That alone gives it an absolutely tremendous bonus over just about everything else out there. (The only exceptions I know are Dylan, which is almost a Lisp anyway, and OCaml, which has caml4p. However, while I don't know much about caml4p, it doesn't seem nearly as nicely integrated into OCaml itself as Lisp macros are into Lisp.)

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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby blob » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:22 am UTC

photosinensis wrote:And while I agree that it's a very powerful and effective language, the parentheses totally suck. There are just too damn many of them. No, give me my curly braces, please.

MzScheme allows braces and brackets as well as parentheses. They perform exactly the same function but you could choose e.g. to use braces for function definitions and loops, brackets for quoted lists or list comprehensions and parentheses elsewhere. They also provide a bit of syntax checking since opening braces must match with closing braces, etc.

EvanED wrote:Plus, Lisp has powerful macros. That alone gives it an absolutely tremendous bonus over just about everything else out there.

Exactly. When I was first looking into Lisp I came across Peter Norvig's Lisp-Python comparison. It marks in red what he sees as deficiencies in one language compared to the other. I think Python is on the way to fixing most of those, but Lisp's can be fixed in a pageful of macros.

List comprehension? Macro. Vector and hashtable literals? Macro; although a function would do much the same job with little overhead.

What would be more interesting is a comparison between Lisp and Haskell. Currying? Macro. Pattern matching? Macro. Monads? I suspect you can implement those with a macro too, but I don't yet understand them well enough to try.

And as for type checking (using sequent calculus, apparently more powerful than Haskell's type class system) Qi has already done that, together with currying and pattern matching...

EvanED wrote:Dylan, which is almost a Lisp anyway

Is Dylan still alive? I had trouble installing Open Dylan and can't find a single active forum or mailing list. Which is sad, since the website claims that Dylan came second place in the ICFP recently.
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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby xyzzy » Thu Nov 22, 2007 2:42 pm UTC

photosinensis wrote:Scheme is a Lisp. Therefore, you've merely said that Lisp is the only true language. And while I agree that it's a very powerful and effective language, the parentheses totally suck. There are just too damn many of them. No, give me my curly braces, please.


Okay. Scheme is, however, the only true Lisp.

And the parens are good, because they're consistent. I don't need to worry about whether what I'm closing off needs an { or a [ or a ( or a <, it's all parens.

My only real objection is that I haven't yet found an implementation that will return the procedure given to it in circumstances like the following

Code: Select all

> ((lambda (x) (lambda (y) (y x))) 2)

It simply tells me there's an anonymous procedure, I want to be given something like

Code: Select all

(y 2)

So I can see what I've been working with. This might not make sense like that, but it makes sense to me. Especially when I'm dealing with heavily nested lambda work and the like - being able to see what it's trying to evaluate would own.
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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby headprogrammingczar » Thu Nov 22, 2007 10:59 pm UTC

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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby notzeb » Thu Nov 22, 2007 11:33 pm UTC

You know, I would probably try Lisp out if it gave you the option of leaving out parentheses wherever that would be unambiguous. (If such a feature is available, I hope someone tells me about it.)

Also, for the longest time I was under the impression that every Lisp program had to be a single function. I used to have nightmares about the level of recursion that must be involved in such a language.

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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby davean » Fri Nov 23, 2007 3:52 am UTC

notzeb wrote:You know, I would probably try Lisp out if it gave you the option of leaving out parentheses wherever that would be unambiguous. (If such a feature is available, I hope someone tells me about it.)


Why? Just format it how you like, they shouldn't get in your way at all. Its not like you have to count them ...

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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby Edit0r » Fri Nov 23, 2007 10:53 am UTC

My favourite language is Haskell. It's like Lisp done properly and not 50 years old. If a problem can't be solved in Haskell it ain't worth solving!

Also, one of the guys who wrote it, Phil Wadler, lectures at Edinburgh Uni where I study. I'm not a CS student so I've never had a lecture by him, but my fiancee is and has. Apparently, he's completely off his rocker. In a good way. But I suppose you'd have to be to come up with Haskell. I swear he's stalking me. Or I'm psychicly stalking him. He just... appears. Like when I was working at the science festival. Or when I was working in Sainsbury's. And outside the building where I have most lectures. But I digress...

I wonder if Apache has a mod_haskell...

[Edit] Holy yiffing furfags captain, it does! http://losser.st-lab.cs.uu.nl/mod_haskell/ [/Edit]
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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby evilbeanfiend » Fri Nov 23, 2007 4:41 pm UTC

notzeb wrote:You know, I would probably try Lisp out if it gave you the option of leaving out parentheses wherever that would be unambiguous. (If such a feature is available, I hope someone tells me about it.


iirc some dialects of lisp have a super close that closes bracket all open brackets up to the top level so you don't have to have your functions end with ))))))))
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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby kaniBunny » Thu Dec 06, 2007 4:19 pm UTC

photosinensis wrote:And since most computers out there are x86 boxen


Are you talking about personal computers, or did you just say that x86 is the most common architecture in the world? :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture

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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby photosinensis » Thu Dec 06, 2007 7:02 pm UTC

kaniBunny wrote:
photosinensis wrote:And since most computers out there are x86 boxen


Are you talking about personal computers, or did you just say that x86 is the most common architecture in the world? :P

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ARM_architecture


I'm talking about personal computers. Yes, I know about ARM's dominance in the embedded market.

As for this flamewar, I think it's been settled:

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And my heart was filled with mournng, mourning for my dear amour.
"'Tis not possible!" I uttered, "Give me back my free hardcore!"
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Re: The ultimate programming language flamewar

Postby Antimatter Spork » Sat Dec 08, 2007 10:13 pm UTC

Pshaw. The One True Programming language is, and always shall be, LOLcode.
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