Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

For the discussion of language mechanics, grammar, vocabulary, trends, and other such linguistic topics, in english and other languages.

Moderators: gmalivuk, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3673
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Sep 13, 2010 8:39 pm UTC

Aiwendil42 wrote:Some features of my pronunciation (from northern New Jersey):
...
- Dew-do merger: Both are pronounced /du/. 'News' is /nuz/, etc.

So [nu: jork] (or [nu: j??k] with some other o and r IPA characters probably) is the correct pronunciation of New York? I always thought that's just the way Germans pronounce it.
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
Lazar
Landed Gentry
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:49 pm UTC
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:05 pm UTC

Monika wrote:So [nu: jork] (or [nu: j??k] with some other o and r IPA characters probably) is the correct pronunciation of New York? I always thought that's just the way Germans pronounce it.

Yes, [nu: ˈjɔɚk] is the standard pronunciation in American English. In British English, on the other hand, the standard pronunciation is [nju: ˈjɔ:k]. The phenomenon in question is called yod-dropping, and it affects historical [j] after alveolar consonants (e.g. in "tube", "dew", "new", "assume", "presume", etc). In American English, yod-dropping has become predominant, and postalveolar [j] is preserved only by a small minority of speakers. In British English, yod-dropping only occurs in some London-area accents and has very low-class connotations.

In fact, British English presents us with a different innovation, yod-coalescence. This involves pronouncing historical [tj], [dj], [sj], [zj] as [tʃ], [dʒ], [ʃ], [ʒ], respectively - meaning that "Tuesday", for example, sounds like "Choosday", and "assume" sounds like "ashoom". Yod-coalescence has become pretty common among younger British people, and while it's not posh or prescriptively correct, it isn't as stigmatized as Cockney-style yod-dropping. (I should note that yod-coalescence is also extremely common in Australia and New Zealand.)

Some observations: Yod-dropping is one of the things that often trips up American actors who are trying to do British accents. Also, when Billy West does his Farnsworth voice on Futurama, he sometimes pronounces "good news" as [gʊd ˈnu:z], and sometimes pronounces it as [gʊd ˈnju:z].
Exit the vampires' castle.

Makri
Posts: 654
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:57 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Makri » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:17 pm UTC

The phenomenon in question is called yod-dropping, and it affects historical [j] after alveolar consonants (e.g. in "tube", "dew", "new", "assume", "presume", etc).


Really? I have always thought that yod-dropping was in fact the result of the failure of the shift that turned /u:/ into /ju:/ to occur.
¬□(∀♀(∃♂(♀❤♂)⟷∃♂(♂❤♀)))

User avatar
Lazar
Landed Gentry
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:49 pm UTC
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Mon Sep 13, 2010 9:30 pm UTC

Makri wrote:Really? I have always thought that yod-dropping was in fact the result of the failure of the shift that turned /u:/ into /ju:/ to occur.

No, I don't think that's true. Some of the words that undergo yod-dropping come from Germanic roots that always had a front element. Examples from Etymonline:

"dew" from OE "deaw"
"new" from OE "neowe"
"Tuesday" from OE "Tiwesdæg"

The others generally have a Franco-Latinate u (assume, student, etc), and from what I've read, French u was already a front vowel by the time of its large-scale lexical contributions to English. It's unlikely that English speakers would have borrowed a front vowel as a back vowel, only to front it again later. The most likely explanation is that all of these words had [ju:], which was subsequently reduced to [u:] in some dialects on the basis of ease of articulation.

To elaborate, it appears that there was never any shift from [u:] to [ju:] in English. During the Great Vowel Shift (which occurred between 1450 and 1750, during or after the period of greatest French influence), the words that formerly had [u:] came to have [aʊ] (e.g. "mouse" from OE "mus"); conversely, the words that currently have [u:] used to have [o:] (e.g. "food" from OE "foda"). French loanwords were unaffected by this shift, indicating that French u was never treated as [u:].
Exit the vampires' castle.

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3673
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Wed Sep 15, 2010 1:31 pm UTC

Lazar wrote:No, I don't think that's true. Some of the words that undergo yod-dropping come from Germanic roots that always had a front element.

Does front element mean the yod?

The others generally have a Franco-Latinate u (assume, student, etc), and from what I've read, French u was already a front vowel by the time of its large-scale lexical contributions to English. It's unlikely that English speakers would have borrowed a front vowel as a back vowel, only to front it again later. The most likely explanation is that all of these words had [ju:], which was subsequently reduced to [u:] in some dialects on the basis of ease of articulation.

Does front vowel here mean that the French u is pronounced like ü like it is today?

To elaborate, it appears that there was never any shift from [u:] to [ju:] in English. During the Great Vowel Shift (which occurred between 1450 and 1750, during or after the period of greatest French influence), the words that formerly had [u:] came to have [aʊ] (e.g. "mouse" from OE "mus"); conversely, the words that currently have [u:] used to have [o:] (e.g. "food" from OE "foda"). French loanwords were unaffected by this shift, indicating that French u was never treated as [u:].

Does this mean it was turned from [ü] to [ju] directly during the adoption from French into English?

And very interesting what you write about yod dropping in American English. I didn't notice that before.
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:05 pm UTC

I have always heard that French /ü/ represents [y], and since English has always lacked that vowel, the shift to [ju] seems a natural approximation. I know little about historical English and less about French, though.

Makri
Posts: 654
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:57 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Makri » Wed Sep 15, 2010 8:11 pm UTC

Ah, thanks for the explanations, Lazar.
¬□(∀♀(∃♂(♀❤♂)⟷∃♂(♂❤♀)))

User avatar
Lazar
Landed Gentry
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:49 pm UTC
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:19 pm UTC

Monika wrote:Does front element mean the yod?

Yes. "Front" describes vowel sounds articulated with the tongue in the front of the mouth, like [e] or [і] (and [j], which is a semivocalic form of [і]). French and German have front rounded vowels, like [y] (French u, German ü) and [ø] (French eu, German ö).

Does front vowel here mean that the French u is pronounced like ü like it is today?

Yes. There appears to be some debate over when French u came to be pronounced [y]; some sources say it comes from Gaulish, while other sources say it occurred as late as the 11th century. But as far as I know, it was definitely [y] by the time that English started borrowing large numbers of French words.

Does this mean it was turned from [ü] to [ju] directly during the adoption from French into English?

Yes; English lacked front rounded vowels, so [ju] was likely the best approximation of [y].
Exit the vampires' castle.

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3673
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Wed Sep 15, 2010 9:43 pm UTC

The Dutch also pronounce u as ü. I wonder whether this is related to the French shift or not.
Last edited by Monika on Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:26 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

Alces
Posts: 14
Joined: Thu Jul 01, 2010 8:13 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Alces » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:22 pm UTC

It could be related to the French shift. However, the fronting of /u/ has happened many times in European languages, for unknown reasons. I don't think this applies to languages in other parts of the world, though I might be wrong. It's happened in Ancient Greek, French, Dutch, and is happening in English currently (/u/ is usually realised as a central vowel for most speakers). Where I live this has progressed very far for some speakers, so /u/ is realised as an almost fully front [ʏ].

Also on /ju/ in French borrowings: French [y] was borrowed as [iu], not [ju]--[iu] later changed to [ju] in most dialects, but not in some, e.g. Welsh English. Just a minor detail. /ju/ also appears in native words where it originates from the Middle English diphthongs /iu/ and /eu/.

Also:
In British English, yod-dropping only occurs in some London-area accents and has very low-class connotations.


It's not just in London: dropping of [j] completely in all environments (even after labials and velars, so 'cute' becomes 'coot', 'beautiful' becomes 'bootiful' is a traditional feature of East Anglian accents. I'm not sure how common or sociolinguistically marked the dropping is these days. Complete yod-dropping was apparently much more widespread in England a century ago, but is now confined to East Anglia.

User avatar
Lazar
Landed Gentry
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:49 pm UTC
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Sun Sep 26, 2010 9:56 pm UTC

Alces wrote:It's not just in London: dropping of [j] completely in all environments (even after labials and velars, so 'cute' becomes 'coot', 'beautiful' becomes 'bootiful' is a traditional feature of East Anglian accents. I'm not sure how common or sociolinguistically marked the dropping is these days. Complete yod-dropping was apparently much more widespread in England a century ago, but is now confined to East Anglia.

Yeah, I should have said "southeast" more broadly. I'm familiar with the East Anglian complete yod-dropping from a travel show host named Ian Wright who has it.
Exit the vampires' castle.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Sep 27, 2010 12:11 am UTC

I'm interested in hearing if anybody here pronounces "get" as [gɪt]. This seems to me like a totally different phenomenon than the pen/pin merger.

Other words of interest: milk ([mɪlk] or [mɛlk]), egg ([ɛg] or [eg] or even [eɪg]), both ([boʊθ] or, as my dad says, [boʊlθ] or something like that).

Finally, does anybody here pronounce loch differently from lock?

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:49 am UTC

I say [gɪt], [mɪlk], [eg], and [boʊθ]. Or maybe [boθ]? I'm not entirely sure what the difference is between the diphthong and the monophthong, which probably means I say the diphthong.

User avatar
Lazar
Landed Gentry
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:49 pm UTC
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Mon Sep 27, 2010 6:53 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I'm interested in hearing if anybody here pronounces "get" as [gɪt]. This seems to me like a totally different phenomenon than the pen/pin merger.

I think you're right - there seem to be a significant number of people who lack the pen-pin merger but who pronounce "get" as [gɪt]. For my part, though, I always pronounce it [gɛt].

Other words of interest: milk ([mɪlk] or [mɛlk]), egg ([ɛg] or [eg] or even [eɪg]), both ([boʊθ] or, as my dad says, [boʊlθ] or something like that).

For me, those are [mɪɫk], [ɛg] and [bɤʊθ].

Finally, does anybody here pronounce loch differently from lock?

Is it the vowel or the consonant that differs for you?

Iulus Cofeld wrote:'m not entirely sure what the difference is between the diphthong and the monophthong, which probably means I say the diphthong.

Basically, if the shape of your mouth changes during the articulation of the vowel, it's a diphthong. If you can keep your mouth perfectly still while articulating the complete vowel, then it's a monophthong. For me, this vowel is realized as [ɤʊ] - a diphthong with a back unrounded onset.
Exit the vampires' castle.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:07 am UTC

Lazar wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:I'm interested in hearing if anybody here pronounces "get" as [gɪt]. This seems to me like a totally different phenomenon than the pen/pin merger.

I think you're right - there seem to be a significant number of people who lack the pen-pin merger but who pronounce "get" as [gɪt]. For my part, though, I always pronounce it [gɛt].


I also pronounce it [gɛt], but coming from Cleveland, I know many people who say [gɪt] or something close to it.

Other words of interest: milk ([mɪlk] or [mɛlk]), egg ([ɛg] or [eg] or even [eɪg]), both ([boʊθ] or, as my dad says, [boʊlθ] or something like that).

For me, those are [mɪɫk], [ɛg] and [bɤʊθ].


I am not familiar with ɤ or ɤʊ. What vowel is that?

Finally, does anybody here pronounce loch differently from lock?

Is it the vowel or the consonant that differs for you?


I pronounce them both [lok] or [lɒk] (I can't really decide which, maybe both), but I understand that some English speakers pronounce the former [lɒx], which is a sound I can't even make.

Makri
Posts: 654
Joined: Sat Oct 03, 2009 4:57 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Makri » Mon Sep 27, 2010 9:24 am UTC

I am not familiar with ɤ or ɤʊ. What vowel is that?


Like the vowel in "but", but more closed. [ʌ] (in "but") is the unrounded version of [ɔ], while [ɤ] is unrounded [o].
¬□(∀♀(∃♂(♀❤♂)⟷∃♂(♂❤♀)))

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3673
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:00 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:Finally, does anybody here pronounce loch differently from lock?

Me, I say [lox] for Loch. But I guess this doesn't count as I am not a native English speaker.

As I understand it, the correct Scottish pronunciation is [lox], but non-Scot English speakers often say [lok], because they either don't know or they cannot form the [x] sound, right?


Eebster the Great wrote:I pronounce them both [lok] or [lɒk] (I can't really decide which, maybe both), but I understand that some English speakers pronounce the former [lɒx], which is a sound I can't even make.

Can you say José or Jesus the Spanish way? That j is the same [x] sound if I am not mistaken. But do not make this strongly aspirated h sound for the j that many English speakers who don't know Spanish make when trying to imitate the Spanish pronunciation. It's kind of close (much closer than English j anyway), but you probably can't produce that sound in the end of a syllable as in Loch.

BTW the German word "Loch" means hole and is pronounced [lox], too. I wonder whether this is a coincidence or the Scot and the German word are actually related ... it seems unlikely, Scot "Loch" is Gaelic, isn't it?
The plural is Löcher, where the ch is pronouced as [ç] (that's not a sss sound as in French, but a sound somewhat like sh but more to the back of the mouth).
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Mon Sep 27, 2010 10:30 am UTC

Monika wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:Finally, does anybody here pronounce loch differently from lock?

Me, I say [lox] for Loch. But I guess this doesn't count as I am not a native English speaker.

As I understand it, the correct Scottish pronunciation is [lox], but non-Scot English speakers often say [lok], because they either don't know or they cannot form the [x] sound, right?

Most English speakers cannot form the [x] sound, that is correct, and I have a feeling that most of the ones who can still don't, kind of for the same reason they do not aspirate the w in "white."

Aiwendil42
Posts: 133
Joined: Mon May 17, 2010 8:52 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Aiwendil42 » Mon Sep 27, 2010 3:22 pm UTC

I'm a native English speaker from New Jersey and I say [gɛt], [mɪlk], [ɛg], [boʊθ], and [lɒx].

The pronunciation [mɛlk] has always perplexed me; I had a friend in high school who pronounced it this way but otherwise seemed to use [ɛ] and [ɪ] the same way I do. What is it about 'milk' that causes the pronunciation with [ɛ] for some people while leaving short 'i' as [ɪ] in other environments? I wonder if those who say [mɛlk] pronounce 'silk' and 'ilk' with [ɛ] as well?

I use the [x] sound in 'loch' and 'Bach'. Though I can't remember ever pronouncing them any other way, I suspect that I was taught the [x] sound at a young age specifically for the name 'Bach', rather than acquiring it naturally.

Derek
Posts: 2181
Joined: Wed Aug 18, 2010 4:15 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Derek » Fri Oct 08, 2010 9:34 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I'm interested in hearing if anybody here pronounces "get" as [gɪt]. This seems to me like a totally different phenomenon than the pen/pin merger.

Other words of interest: milk ([mɪlk] or [mɛlk]), egg ([ɛg] or [eg] or even [eɪg]), both ([boʊθ] or, as my dad says, [boʊlθ] or something like that).

Finally, does anybody here pronounce loch differently from lock?

[gɪt], [mɪlk], [ɛg] (though my mom says [eg]), and [boʊθ] (though I've heard [boʊlθ] before).

Amaris
Posts: 7
Joined: Sun Oct 03, 2010 10:41 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Amaris » Fri Oct 08, 2010 10:32 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:I'm interested in hearing if anybody here pronounces "get" as [gɪt]. This seems to me like a totally different phenomenon than the pen/pin merger.


I pronounce it as [gɪt]. It seems very unnatural to me to pronounce it any other way.

Other words of interest: milk ([mɪlk] or [mɛlk]), egg ([ɛg] or [eg] or even [eɪg]), both ([boʊθ] or, as my dad says, [boʊlθ] or something like that).


[mɪlk], [ɛg], and [boʊθ] for me, though I've heard every one of those variations from many people.

Finally, does anybody here pronounce loch differently from lock?


I would if it weren't for the strange looks I'd get. Besides, I always feel strange when pronouncing foreign words in an un-anglicized (non-anglicized?) manner.

masakatsu
Posts: 121
Joined: Tue Jan 26, 2010 3:02 pm UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby masakatsu » Tue Oct 19, 2010 6:52 pm UTC

In Georgia, they get insane.

I live in Mart-in-ez, spelled Martinez.
One of my research partner's wife is from Al-Bane-ee, spelled Albany
I will not attack your math, just your epistemology.

You think you have it bad, I teach Intro to Project Management to Undergrads.

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Tue Oct 19, 2010 10:01 pm UTC

masakatsu wrote:In Georgia, they get insane.

I live in Mart-in-ez, spelled Martinez.
One of my research partner's wife is from Al-Bane-ee, spelled Albany

Wow, that's even worse than Notre Dame and Des Moines.

User avatar
Meteorswarm
Posts: 979
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:28 am UTC
Location: Ithaca, NY

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Meteorswarm » Wed Oct 20, 2010 4:50 am UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
masakatsu wrote:In Georgia, they get insane.

I live in Mart-in-ez, spelled Martinez.
One of my research partner's wife is from Al-Bane-ee, spelled Albany

Wow, that's even worse than Notre Dame and Des Moines.


My sister-in-law-elect is from Milan (My-lan) Indiana. Near Versailles (Ver-sails). And nearly every state has a Cairo (Kay-ro)

I'm from central new jersey, and, though I don't have enough training to use IPA, I definitely do use an 'a' sound in orange, horrible, florida, etc.

I occasionally say "wooder" instead of "water"; both sound ok to me, and I blur them together (waoder?)
The same as the old Meteorswarm, now with fewer posts!

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Oct 20, 2010 5:23 am UTC

Meteorswarm wrote:My sister-in-law-elect is from Milan (My-lan) Indiana. Near Versailles (Ver-sails). And nearly every state has a Cairo (Kay-ro)

Yes but in most states they pronounce it like kuy-ro. That is, after all, the most common anglicization of Cairo. I mean, we do generally anglicize foreign city names (like Paris) but I thought it was relatively consistent from state to state.

User avatar
Meteorswarm
Posts: 979
Joined: Sun Dec 27, 2009 12:28 am UTC
Location: Ithaca, NY

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Meteorswarm » Wed Oct 20, 2010 12:34 pm UTC

Eebster the Great wrote:
Meteorswarm wrote:My sister-in-law-elect is from Milan (My-lan) Indiana. Near Versailles (Ver-sails). And nearly every state has a Cairo (Kay-ro)

Yes but in most states they pronounce it like kuy-ro. That is, after all, the most common anglicization of Cairo. I mean, we do generally anglicize foreign city names (like Paris) but I thought it was relatively consistent from state to state.


Oops, I accidentally gave the sort-of correct pronounceation. I still find ver sails unforgiveable.
The same as the old Meteorswarm, now with fewer posts!

User avatar
Eebster the Great
Posts: 3484
Joined: Mon Nov 10, 2008 12:58 am UTC
Location: Cleveland, Ohio

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Eebster the Great » Wed Oct 20, 2010 3:04 pm UTC

Meteorswarm wrote:
Eebster the Great wrote:
Meteorswarm wrote:My sister-in-law-elect is from Milan (My-lan) Indiana. Near Versailles (Ver-sails). And nearly every state has a Cairo (Kay-ro)

Yes but in most states they pronounce it like kuy-ro. That is, after all, the most common anglicization of Cairo. I mean, we do generally anglicize foreign city names (like Paris) but I thought it was relatively consistent from state to state.


Oops, I accidentally gave the sort-of correct pronounceation. I still find ver sails unforgiveable.

I am imagining discussing "The Treaty of Versails" in a modern European history class in my head.

User avatar
meatyochre
Posts: 1524
Joined: Mon Apr 05, 2010 7:09 am UTC
Location: flying with the Conchords

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby meatyochre » Wed Oct 20, 2010 9:39 pm UTC

des plaines, il should NOT be pronounced "dess planes"

I don't care if you live there >:[
Dark567 wrote:"Hey, I created a perpetual motion device"

"yeah, but your poster sucks. F-"

Image

User avatar
existentialpanda
Posts: 196
Joined: Thu Jul 29, 2010 5:38 am UTC
Location: ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby existentialpanda » Thu Oct 21, 2010 3:04 am UTC

posentin wrote:I'm from california, and have the same pronunciation of "mirror" as /mɛrɚ/. It definitely doesn't rhyme with 'nearer' to me, and saying it with an /i/ sounds antiquated.

My accent is affected by the californian vowel shift, my most particularly noticed shifted word is "shit" as /ʃɛt/. And although my /ʊ/ words are shifted to /ʌ/ quite a lot, I hardly get called on that though.

I also say "chap stick" as "chop stick" as i've been told.


What part of California? I'm from Southern CA - San Diego and now Pasadena - and I've never heard 'mirror' not rhyme with 'nearer'....nor have I ever heard 'chap stick' pronounced 'chop stick.'

Iulus Cofield wrote:I've noticed something odd on the phone recently.

People around here (PNW) add [m] to the beginning of /bye/ at the end of a phone conversation.

My mother does this too.


On a semi related note, I was recently told that I have a Norwegian accent. I've never even been there.

fənɑlədʒɪst
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:14 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby fənɑlədʒɪst » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:46 am UTC

Aiwendil42 wrote:The pronunciation [mɛlk] has always perplexed me; I had a friend in high school who pronounced it this way but otherwise seemed to use [ɛ] and [ɪ] the same way I do. What is it about 'milk' that causes the pronunciation with [ɛ] for some people while leaving short 'i' as [ɪ] in other environments? I wonder if those who say [mɛlk] pronounce 'silk' and 'ilk' with [ɛ] as well?


Again, I'm from Georgia but have avoided the majority of the major dialectal features of the area... but I indeed say [mɛlk]! Everyone, even other Georgians wonder what is wrong with me :P I can tell you that I definitely pronounce 'silk' and 'ilk' as [sɪlk] and [ɪlk] though. Elk, as in the large deer-like animal, is distinct as [ɛlk]. I can't think of another word where I have a similar pattern...

Just to put out my pronunciations of the words before: [gɪt], [ɛg] always in the singular but I vary between [ɛgz] and [eɪgz] in the plural, [boʊθ], and [lɑx] ever since I learned German, but I pronounced 'loch' as [lɑk] until that point.

Oh, I've realized some other strange idiolectal things since my last post: 'Australia' as [ɑl.ˈsʧɹeɪl.jə] and 'problem' as [pɹɑlbləm]. Does anyone know of any sort of "intrusive L" in American English varieties? Also, spectrogram analysis in Praat has confirmed my suspicion that my [ʊ] in words like 'put' [pʊt] is actually a diphthong [ʊɪ]. No clue if anyone else has that.

I thought I would comment here that since first making this topic, I've tried to remove myself from the pen-pin merger with terrible results... Sometimes I involuntarily pronounce things that "should" be [ɪ] before nasals, such as 'rinse' and 'women', as [ɛ], such as the very real times I said [ɹɛns] and [wɛ.mən] :( I feel like Dr. Hammond when Jurassic Park went crazy.

fənɑlədʒɪst
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:14 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby fənɑlədʒɪst » Thu Oct 28, 2010 12:50 am UTC

Iulus Cofield wrote:People around here (PNW) add [m] to the beginning of /bye/ at the end of a phone conversation.


Pre-nasalized stops?? That's awesome! Any instances of [nd ŋg] in syllable onset positions also? Is this something people only do on the phone? Or do you hear it in person as well?

User avatar
Lazar
Landed Gentry
Posts: 2151
Joined: Tue Dec 29, 2009 11:49 pm UTC
Location: Massachusetts

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Lazar » Thu Oct 28, 2010 1:22 am UTC

fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:Pre-nasalized stops?? That's awesome! Any instances of [nd ŋg] in syllable onset positions also? Is this something people only do on the phone? Or do you hear it in person as well?

When doing a Carl Sagan impression, I always make sure to say "mmmbillions and billions". I'm not sure if he even used pre-nasalized stops, but it just sounds right. :)
Exit the vampires' castle.

User avatar
chridd
Has a vermicelli title
Posts: 846
Joined: Tue Aug 19, 2008 10:07 am UTC
Location: ...Earth, I guess?
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby chridd » Thu Oct 28, 2010 5:01 am UTC

fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:
Iulus Cofield wrote:People around here (PNW) add [m] to the beginning of /bye/ at the end of a phone conversation.
Pre-nasalized stops?? That's awesome! Any instances of [nd ŋg] in syllable onset positions also? Is this something people only do on the phone? Or do you hear it in person as well?
I've heard something like this as well (which may or may not actually be the same thing), and I think it was more of a syllabic /m/. (I've always assumed it was "mm-hmm, bye", but perhaps not spoken very clearly.)
~ chri d. d. /tʃɹɪ.di.di/ (Phonotactics, schmphonotactics) · she · Forum game scores
mittfh wrote:I wish this post was very quotable...

User avatar
Iulus Cofield
WINNING
Posts: 2917
Joined: Wed Apr 07, 2010 9:31 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Iulus Cofield » Thu Oct 28, 2010 2:56 pm UTC

It is indeed syllabic. There's no vowel, but the /m/ is usually held as long as the /bai/, so it's not a consonant cluster /mb/ that I see in a lot of African (not sure which language/s) names.

User avatar
Velifer
Posts: 1132
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:05 pm UTC
Location: 40ºN, 83ºW

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Velifer » Thu Oct 28, 2010 3:27 pm UTC

fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:Is this something people only do on the phone? Or do you hear it in person as well?

I'm almost ashamed to admit I do this. It's nearly exclusively on the phone, and the usual /bī/ gets shifted to /m:b"ai/
(I'm weak on the IPA: the vowel comes with a more open mouth, a smile rather than rounder lips, and the b pops more explosively.)
It's always either affectionate casual speech (with family or close friends) or a subtle insult to a stranger.
I'm originally from the Cleveland area, with strong influence from grandparents from the hills of KY.
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies have nothing to lose but their chains -Marx

fənɑlədʒɪst
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:14 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby fənɑlədʒɪst » Mon Nov 08, 2010 3:51 pm UTC

Some updates I've noticed recently!

Sequentially - According to dictionaries, the "standard" pronunciation for this word should be [sɪkwɛnʃəli], but many speakers I've encountered say [sɪŋkwɛn̠ʧəli]. Why? Nasal epenthesis? The postalveolar fricative becoming an affricate is likely the release from the coronal nasal stop, which is pretty cool actually.

Etcetera - "Standard" American pronunciation is supposedly [ɛt sɛɾɚə], but many speakers here say [ɛk sɛɾɚə], reminiscent of the "ekspecially" pronunciation above.

Immediately - This one is quite interesting, but it's pretty rare. Rather than [ɪmiɾiətli], some people here say [ɪmiɾiəntli], with a nasal consonant preceding the coronal stop. Why? Another case of nasal epenthesis?

Adaptation and Ambiguity - I'm not even sure how to classify these, but rather than [æ.dəp.teɪ.ʃən] and [æm.bɪ.ˈgju.ɪ.ɾi], I've heard people say [ə.dæp.ʃən] and [æm.ˈbɪ.gwɪ.ɾi]. "Adaption" seems to be a word in its own right, but when I asked people to spell the word they had just said, they spelled it as "adaptation," so they weren't thinking of the word "adaption" to my knowledge. As for ambiguity... I have no idea. I should ask those speakers how they pronounce "ambiguous" perhaps?
Last edited by fənɑlədʒɪst on Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:15 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3673
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:50 pm UTC

I thought [æm.ˈbɪ.gwɪ.ɾi] is the correct pronunciation. :shock: Either I did not pay proper attention or people in Massachusetts actually say it this way. Image

I say ambiguous with -gju- in the middle, however.
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

fənɑlədʒɪst
Posts: 64
Joined: Sun Aug 01, 2010 12:14 am UTC

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby fənɑlədʒɪst » Mon Nov 08, 2010 4:58 pm UTC

Monika wrote:I thought [æm.ˈbɪ.gwɪ.ɾi] is the correct pronunciation. :shock: Either I did not pay proper attention or people in Massachusetts actually say it this way. Image

I say ambiguous with -gju- in the middle, however.


Wow! I just asked the people who say "ambiguity" like that and they're all from Massachusetts! That's awesome.

User avatar
Monika
Welcoming Aarvark
Posts: 3673
Joined: Mon Aug 18, 2008 8:03 am UTC
Location: Germany, near Heidelberg
Contact:

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Monika » Mon Nov 08, 2010 5:22 pm UTC

He! :D

I lived in Mass. for a year (and in no other English-speaking areas ever).
#xkcd-q on irc.foonetic.net - the LGBTIQQA support channel
Please donate to help these people

User avatar
Velifer
Posts: 1132
Joined: Wed Dec 26, 2007 4:05 pm UTC
Location: 40ºN, 83ºW

Re: Regional Dialect and Idiolect Oddities (pronunciation)

Postby Velifer » Mon Nov 08, 2010 6:53 pm UTC

fənɑlədʒɪst wrote:Some updates I've noticed recently!


My relatives ring a /beɪl/ and feed a /bɛl/ to the horse. *shrug*
I lived close to the Cuyahoga River which I pronounce/slur into /kɐhɒɡɜ/ ...so glass houses and all.
Time flies like an arrow, fruit flies have nothing to lose but their chains -Marx


Return to “Language/Linguistics”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 6 guests