Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

A slow, analog alternative to the internet

Moderators: SecondTalon, Moderators General, Prelates

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby SecondTalon » Sun Sep 29, 2013 1:05 am UTC

.... I really need to pay more attention as I'm only now starting this thing. Got sucked in as someone posted the Potter-Draco Moon conversation.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
Quizatzhaderac
Posts: 1827
Joined: Sun Oct 19, 2008 5:28 pm UTC
Location: Space Florida

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Mon Sep 30, 2013 3:09 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:I dunno; you don't see people actually walking around trading physical chunks of gold very often. Realistically, the price of gold seems more like an abstraction.
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, unless your saying it would be impossible to physically get gold coins and sell silver ones near market value. And I think they do carry around silver in the magical world. All it would take is someone figuring out that something is more expensive there then it is here, and then working out the logistics; which is basically the same as all trade everywhere, ever.
The thing about recursion problems is that they tend to contain other recursion problems.

rmsgrey
Posts: 3655
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Sep 30, 2013 5:22 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Jorpho wrote:I dunno; you don't see people actually walking around trading physical chunks of gold very often. Realistically, the price of gold seems more like an abstraction.
I'm not sure what that has to do with anything, unless your saying it would be impossible to physically get gold coins and sell silver ones near market value. And I think they do carry around silver in the magical world. All it would take is someone figuring out that something is more expensive there then it is here, and then working out the logistics; which is basically the same as all trade everywhere, ever.


Yeah, the basic motivation for specialist traders is to identify two commodities which have one exchange rate in location X and another in location Y, such that the transport costs (including the cost of keeping yourself alive during the whole exchange) are less than the profit available from making a round trip. In a perfect free market, the prices of goods will tend to adjust so that the profit and the transport costs are equal, so either the HP universe doesn't have a free market, or the costs of taking gold from magical into muggle Britain are much, much higher than you'd expect...

User avatar
Snark
Posts: 425
Joined: Mon Feb 27, 2012 3:22 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Snark » Thu Dec 12, 2013 5:40 pm UTC

HPMOR just updated with 3 new chapters. All too short for my liking.
Dashboard Confessional wrote:I want to give you whatever you need. What is it you need? Is it within me?


Avatar by Matt

Nork
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:05 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Nork » Tue Dec 17, 2013 5:02 pm UTC

The latest chapters didn't seem to follow the "characters behaving rationally" rule:

Spoiler:
1: Students are being killed.
2: There's a good chance they're being killed by the guy I might have killed as an infant.
3: Prophecies (which I'm grudgingly starting to acknowledge may have value) say that he circumvented death and I have to defeat him again.
4: My mentor (who does some very suspicious things) is killing unicorns and drinking their blood to circumvent death.
5: Suspicion level: 0

My suspension of disbelief level: Also 0.


The story started out as a version of Harry Potter where people acted intelligently. Adding in a "Harry doesn't have to act intelligently in relation to this subset of characters" exception seems like a huge cop-out.

User avatar
Yakk
Poster with most posts but no title.
Posts: 11129
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:27 pm UTC
Location: E pur si muove

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Tue Dec 17, 2013 9:08 pm UTC

Spoiler:
It it pretty clear that Harry had his mind suborned a long, long time ago.

Ever work out where and when Harry learned that using magic on his mentor causes both of them pain and is a bad thing that they should never do? When he learned about the feeling of doom? When I went looking for them, they just showed up as unfounded knowledge that Harry never questioned or learned at any point in the narrative. There are holes in Harry's mind.

Rationality *when your mind is compromised* is difficult to do, and the bad guy in HPMOR has used this on Harry to cripple him. Harry is incapable of thinking rationally about a certain subset of things, and has not yet figured this out. Less Wrong is just pushing it to the forefront even more now.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

Nork
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:05 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Nork » Wed Dec 18, 2013 6:30 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I'll be disappointed if this is a literal case of a wizard did it. It's still an excuse for the writer to make his main character act irrationally (and I thought the whole point of this fanfic was to avoid that), and it uses a mechanic that doesn't appear anywhere else in the book. They modify memories in several places, but I can't recall any places where they modify a person's thought processes. In the new chapters, Harry remembers Quirrel acting oddly, he just immediately discards any suspicion on hearing that his mentor may be dying.

Even if this is what happened, it means that Quirrel is violating several of the rules of the Evil Overlord List (which was referenced in one of the early chapters). If the answer to "why is the main character acting irrationally?" is "he's fine, it's the villain who's acting irrationally", then it's still a violation of the main premise of the book.

Currently, I'm stuck between three possiblities:
1: Harry's mind is being altered by Quirrel, who is the villain and is acting unintelligently.
2: Quirrel is not the villain, and the villain is altering Harry's mind to protect Quirrel from suspicion (which doesn't make sense)
3: Regardless of who the villain is, the author is writing Harry to act unintelligently.

While it's pretty obvious that Harry's memories have been modified in some major way (the remembrall scene was rather blunt about it), I'm still inclined towards option #3. If Quirrel is strong enough to be re-programming Harry's brain (instead of just modifying some data files), then there's no real option for Harry to win shy of Deux-ex-Machina or having Quirrel make some huge and unrealistic mistake.

Here's hoping I'm wrong. (Or rather: I'm 90% certain I'm wrong, so here's hoping that I'm wrong and the author's solution makes sense.)

User avatar
3rdtry
Posts: 152
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2013 1:46 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby 3rdtry » Sun Dec 22, 2013 4:15 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Did they just find Twilight Sparkle in the forbidden forest?!

It's one thing to make an humorous occasional reference to another show, but isn't that going a bit too far?
Last edited by 3rdtry on Sun Dec 22, 2013 10:30 pm UTC, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
skeptical scientist
closed-minded spiritualist
Posts: 6142
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
Location: San Francisco

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby skeptical scientist » Sun Dec 22, 2013 8:37 pm UTC

Did anyone else here catch the reference to Kirby–Paris?
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.

"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson

User avatar
Yakk
Poster with most posts but no title.
Posts: 11129
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:27 pm UTC
Location: E pur si muove

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Mon Dec 23, 2013 2:44 am UTC

Yep. But I doubt the wizards killing those Hydras would live to tell the tale.

Try defeating your own hydra:
http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml
473 my attempt (highest left most head)
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

User avatar
Jorpho
Posts: 6290
Joined: Wed Dec 12, 2007 5:31 am UTC
Location: Canada

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Jorpho » Sat Dec 28, 2013 4:18 pm UTC

If we're going to go nuts, the use of the word "nimrod" on page 1340 is not something a wizard ignorant of the Muggle world would use as an insult.
http://www.cracked.com/article_19584_7- ... words.html

Anyway, have any of you folks actually read the fic named "Worm" that is lauded so enthusiastically?

User avatar
skeptical scientist
closed-minded spiritualist
Posts: 6142
Joined: Tue Nov 28, 2006 6:09 am UTC
Location: San Francisco

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby skeptical scientist » Sat Dec 28, 2013 10:56 pm UTC

Jorpho wrote:Anyway, have any of you folks actually read the fic named "Worm" that is lauded so enthusiastically?

I was scared off by a warning not to start Worm unless I had several days free to devote to nothing but reading. :P
I'm looking forward to the day when the SNES emulator on my computer works by emulating the elementary particles in an actual, physical box with Nintendo stamped on the side.

"With math, all things are possible." —Rebecca Watson

User avatar
raudorn
Posts: 370
Joined: Mon Jun 13, 2011 11:59 am UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby raudorn » Sun Dec 29, 2013 12:48 pm UTC

I'm in the middle of reading Worm and I can attest that this warning is fair. It's good. It's long. It's really good. It's really long.

johnie104
Posts: 248
Joined: Tue Jan 08, 2008 6:44 pm UTC
Contact:

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby johnie104 » Sun Dec 29, 2013 4:53 pm UTC

raudorn wrote:I'm in the middle of reading Worm and I can attest that this warning is fair. It's good. It's long. It's really good. It's really long.


QFT

It's really really REALLY good.

It's also excessively long... Which I really like, because I didn't have anything to read anyway (LotR has a combined wordcount of around 500k. Worm has 2,56 MILLION words).
Signature removed because of it's blinding awesomeness.

Sheikh al-Majaneen
Name Checks Out On Time, Tips Chambermaid
Posts: 1075
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2010 5:17 am UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Mon Dec 30, 2013 3:55 pm UTC

I finished it last week. Great story.

User avatar
PM 2Ring
Posts: 3715
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:19 pm UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby PM 2Ring » Wed Jan 08, 2014 5:48 am UTC

Jorpho wrote:Anyway, have any of you folks actually read the fic named "Worm" that is lauded so enthusiastically?

It sounds intriguing, but many of the later chapter titles give me the impression that it gets a bit bleak. These days, I tend to avoid reading dystopian stories - they aren't good for my mental health.

wumpus
Posts: 546
Joined: Thu Feb 21, 2008 12:16 am UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby wumpus » Sat Jan 11, 2014 6:29 pm UTC

I can't say I agree with the "Harry must be confunded". I fail to see any time that Harry actually considered his own mortality before attempting his stunts. He is certainly different from the canonical Harry in gryphindor, although I will claim that "rational" Harry ignores doing the heroic thing because he thinks it appears stupid, but will happily "mess with time" if he feels it is in his interest.

Spoiler:
Harry has never considered the issue of his parent's killer. He seems to take the attitude that "the killer is dead, he won't be back". While he should be updating that belief with his assumption on the reversibility of death, I don't expect such things to happen until he thinks long and hard about the centaurs attempt to kill him.

Harry is convinced that Dumbledore is behind the students deaths. This could easily change soon. There is also a decent chance that Dumbledore is likely Harry's main adversary. Voldemort merely needs to worry about potential revenge from Harry (and it is unclear why he has spent so much strengthening Harry), while Dumbledore appears against any plan of Harry's to thwart death. Since this is likely the author's main theme, don't be surprised that Harry will only learn about Quirrell's true history after his death [and not by Harry's hand].

My mentor (who does some very suspicious things) is killing unicorns and drinking their blood to circumvent death. - Were you really surprised that Harry thought this was the appropriate thing to do if you are near death?
Prophecies (which I'm grudgingly starting to acknowledge may have value) say that he circumvented death and I have to defeat him again. - Has Harry been told this? Canonical Dumbledore waited until something like the end of book 6 to even mention this. Rational Harry would likely use forbidden spells to wring the rest out of Dumbledore if he found out about that (which should take better planning than rational Harry is capable of).

One other odd thing is the main reasons Harry distrusts Quirrell is that he used the killing curse against a guard/auror. While we know that a killing curse can not be used as a feint, Harry likely doesn't (Quirrell would be foolish to assume that this Harry doesn't know something, but that may have been a risk he had to take), but now assumes that Quirrell was telling the truth and that it was. We *do* know that it is quite possible that Quirrell pulled his killing curse (the spell failed because he didn't want to kill) and substituted his green hex. Since he can cast a killing curse much faster than he did there (and presumably Dumbledore and the Aurors now believe the incorrect time), it is quite possible that he did cast a feint (one that would convince *everybody* that it wasn't). I suspect that this green hex was a retcon slipped in to try to rehabilitate Quirrell and make his feint possible.

User avatar
LaserGuy
Posts: 4585
Joined: Thu Jan 15, 2009 5:33 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby LaserGuy » Mon Jan 13, 2014 9:48 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Yep. But I doubt the wizards killing those Hydras would live to tell the tale.

Try defeating your own hydra:
http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml
473 my attempt (highest left most head)


That was a fun way to spend an afternoon. I finished in 4500 or so moves. Finishing in 473 is pretty impressive.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby SecondTalon » Tue Jan 21, 2014 5:11 pm UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:
Jorpho wrote:Anyway, have any of you folks actually read the fic named "Worm" that is lauded so enthusiastically?

It sounds intriguing, but many of the later chapter titles give me the impression that it gets a bit bleak. These days, I tend to avoid reading dystopian stories - they aren't good for my mental health.

It's a good comicbook series. I say that not just because they have superpowers, but because it does the "Oh shit, this threat is taken care of but holy fuck, what is thaaaat!" thing that comics like to do.

Only unlike comics, the previous threat doesn't become some low-grade mook that can be beaten by a novice on accident. They're still huge threats. There's just larger threats.

I recommend it, but I also say that there's nothing wrong with limiting yourself to an Arc. Gives you an achievable goal yet also gives you enough plot to keep you going.

At any rate, yeah.. it's pretty damn bleak.

I'm also not really a fan of the first person writing, but it's worth it.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
PM 2Ring
Posts: 3715
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:19 pm UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby PM 2Ring » Wed Jan 22, 2014 5:59 am UTC

Thanks, SecondTalon. I might give Worm a miss.

User avatar
SecondTalon
SexyTalon
Posts: 26529
Joined: Sat May 05, 2007 2:10 pm UTC
Location: Louisville, Kentucky, USA, Mars. HA!
Contact:

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby SecondTalon » Wed Jan 22, 2014 7:28 pm UTC

It ends with everything being better?

For certain values of the word better.
heuristically_alone wrote:I want to write a DnD campaign and play it by myself and DM it myself.
heuristically_alone wrote:I have been informed that this is called writing a book.

User avatar
PM 2Ring
Posts: 3715
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:19 pm UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby PM 2Ring » Thu Jan 23, 2014 5:12 am UTC

SecondTalon wrote:It ends with everything being better?

For certain values of the word better.


In that case, I shall consider it. Once I've finished re-reading Lord of the Rings.

User avatar
Vaniver
Posts: 9422
Joined: Fri Oct 13, 2006 2:12 am UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Vaniver » Mon Feb 17, 2014 5:52 am UTC

PM 2Ring wrote:In that case, I shall consider it. Once I've finished re-reading Lord of the Rings.
Strong recommendation against reading Worm if negative stories lower your mood. It's an truly stupendous number of terrible things, one after the other, and it's two steps back for every one step forward.

It ends on a step forward... but I wouldn't call that better.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

Avatar from My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic, owned by Hasbro.

User avatar
PM 2Ring
Posts: 3715
Joined: Mon Jan 26, 2009 3:19 pm UTC
Location: Sydney, Australia

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby PM 2Ring » Mon Feb 17, 2014 9:12 am UTC

Thanks for the warning, Vaniver.

AlexRose
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:37 am UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby AlexRose » Mon Apr 07, 2014 6:20 am UTC

In Chapter 62, how exactly did Harry relay the message back in time, and what was the "obvious test" that Harry's presence in the room foiled?

User avatar
phlip
Restorer of Worlds
Posts: 7573
Joined: Sat Sep 23, 2006 3:56 am UTC
Location: Australia
Contact:

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby phlip » Mon Apr 07, 2014 7:01 am UTC

AlexRose wrote:In Chapter 62, how exactly did Harry relay the message back in time, and what was the "obvious test" that Harry's presence in the room foiled?

Spoiler:
Harry did all the steps in chronological order, without using the turner (as, naturally, he couldn't). That is, at 3pm, he received a (loosely) coded message via some sort of Slytherin message-passing network. He then went off and delivered the message to Flitwick. Then, later, at 9pm, he had the conversation with McGonagall, tried to seem surprised when she challenges him to the test, wrote down the message he was supposed to relay back in time in code, and sent it off through some sort of Slytherin message-passing network to someone who hadn't been using their Time Turner for nefarious purposes all day, and was probably willing to use it for a bit of money.

The "obvious test" is referring to the whole "send this message back in time" test that McGonagall did - he's sitting invisible in the empty room so that if his future self did sent a message back in time via proxy, he'd be there to receive it.

Code: Select all

enum ಠ_ಠ {°□°╰=1, °Д°╰, ಠ益ಠ╰};
void ┻━┻︵​╰(ಠ_ಠ ⚠) {exit((int)⚠);}
[he/him/his]

AlexRose
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Sep 14, 2009 2:37 am UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby AlexRose » Wed Apr 16, 2014 3:57 am UTC

Ah I see, I thought the "obvious test" was referring to some sort of counter-test, spent a bit trying to figure out what that could have been.

Although Harry was cutting it damn close; he only knew of one Time Turner user, and if that user had already used her Time Turner (even for one turn) or didn't receive the message before 9:00, Harry was sunk. Why didn't he execute his plan as soon as he received the message?

User avatar
Gwydion
Posts: 336
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2007 7:31 pm UTC
Location: Chicago, IL

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Gwydion » Thu Apr 17, 2014 10:35 pm UTC

Well, he went to whatever room and got the message at 3pm (or near 3pm), so he knew the person who delivered the message would have at least 5 turns of a Time-Turner left by that evening. If nobody showed up with the message until 4, then he'd have 5 hours to come up with an innocent-sounding lie about why he used a turn already that day. As he said, trying to send the message before he actually met with McGonagall would be "messing with Time" and could prove dangerous (even though by virtue of receiving the message at 3 he arguably didn't need to wait until 9 to start this plan in motion). We are led to assume the Slytherin message network is reasonably fast, and that the allure of 10 sickles would get even the laziest Slytherin to move his/her ass. He could always say that it took him a while to find Flitwick, since I don't think McGonagall knows at this point that
Spoiler:
Harry can send a Patronus on errands.

User avatar
mathmannix
Posts: 1453
Joined: Fri Jul 06, 2012 2:12 pm UTC
Location: Washington, DC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby mathmannix » Tue Jun 10, 2014 5:45 pm UTC

Yakk wrote:Yep. But I doubt the wizards killing those Hydras would live to tell the tale.

Try defeating your own hydra:
http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml
473 my attempt (highest left most head)


237 in my first attempt just now
I hear velociraptor tastes like chicken.

User avatar
Whizbang
The Best Reporter
Posts: 2238
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:50 pm UTC
Location: New Hampshire, USA

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Whizbang » Tue Jun 10, 2014 6:48 pm UTC

mathmannix wrote:
Yakk wrote:Yep. But I doubt the wizards killing those Hydras would live to tell the tale.

Try defeating your own hydra:
http://www.madore.org/~david/math/hydra.xhtml
473 my attempt (highest left most head)


237 in my first attempt just now


Holy mother of clicking!

1714 heads cut off. I eventually figured out the strategy of always working from the top down, rather than on a single branch, and to also always hit the topmost dire neck first.

[Edit]
558 heads

[Edit #2]
300 heads.

User avatar
Azrael001
Posts: 2385
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2007 5:15 am UTC
Location: The Land of Make Believe.
Contact:

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Azrael001 » Sat Jun 21, 2014 7:16 pm UTC

Worm was awesome, if grim. The author has moved onto Pact, which is also quite good, if grim.
23111

User avatar
wam
Posts: 201
Joined: Wed Feb 08, 2012 9:08 am UTC
Location: South England

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby wam » Sun Aug 03, 2014 5:14 pm UTC

There is a new chapter up, 102 and at the end he does say that he is on track to finish this off by the end of 2014 so fingers crossed.
Come join us playing mafia signup here

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Adam H » Mon Aug 04, 2014 9:53 pm UTC

Very interesting!
Spoiler:
At the end of 102 Harry seems to think he is incapable of casting Avada Kedavra - is that because of something I've forgotten, or is it because he thinks he cannot be "indifferent"? Because in 101 Dumbledore accuses Harry of being uncaring regarding Filch's firing ("Do you really just not care?"), and Harry retorts "I care about the innocent".

So the only thing that needs to happen for Harry to turn into an evil dark lord is for him to decide that people are generally not innocent, for some definition of innocent.

This may be obvious or obviously wrong, it's been a while since I read any HPMOR other than the last few chapters.
-Adam

rmsgrey
Posts: 3655
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Aug 04, 2014 10:14 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Very interesting!
Spoiler:
At the end of 102 Harry seems to think he is incapable of casting Avada Kedavra - is that because of something I've forgotten, or is it because he thinks he cannot be "indifferent"? Because in 101 Dumbledore accuses Harry of being uncaring regarding Filch's firing ("Do you really just not care?"), and Harry retorts "I care about the innocent".

So the only thing that needs to happen for Harry to turn into an evil dark lord is for him to decide that people are generally not innocent, for some definition of innocent.

This may be obvious or obviously wrong, it's been a while since I read any HPMOR other than the last few chapters.

Spoiler:
It seems Avada Kedavra is the opposite of Muggle weapons, where the standard story is that the first kill is the hardest, and subsequent ones progressively easier.

The true Patronus - requiring the Wizard to embrace Life - and the true Killing Curse - requiring an indifference to murder - seem to be reasonably mutually exclusive.

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Adam H » Tue Aug 05, 2014 3:07 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:
Adam H wrote:Very interesting!
Spoiler:
At the end of 102 Harry seems to think he is incapable of casting Avada Kedavra - is that because of something I've forgotten, or is it because he thinks he cannot be "indifferent"? Because in 101 Dumbledore accuses Harry of being uncaring regarding Filch's firing ("Do you really just not care?"), and Harry retorts "I care about the innocent".

So the only thing that needs to happen for Harry to turn into an evil dark lord is for him to decide that people are generally not innocent, for some definition of innocent.

This may be obvious or obviously wrong, it's been a while since I read any HPMOR other than the last few chapters.

Spoiler:
It seems Avada Kedavra is the opposite of Muggle weapons, where the standard story is that the first kill is the hardest, and subsequent ones progressively easier.

The true Patronus - requiring the Wizard to embrace Life - and the true Killing Curse - requiring an indifference to murder - seem to be reasonably mutually exclusive.

Spoiler:
But why would the opposite of hating a person be indifference to murder. I think it makes much more sense for it to be indifference to a person, which IMO Harry has great capacity for.
-Adam

Nork
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed Jul 31, 2013 4:05 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Nork » Wed Aug 06, 2014 4:23 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:
Adam H wrote:Very interesting!
Spoiler:
At the end of 102 Harry seems to think he is incapable of casting Avada Kedavra - is that because of something I've forgotten, or is it because he thinks he cannot be "indifferent"? Because in 101 Dumbledore accuses Harry of being uncaring regarding Filch's firing ("Do you really just not care?"), and Harry retorts "I care about the innocent".

So the only thing that needs to happen for Harry to turn into an evil dark lord is for him to decide that people are generally not innocent, for some definition of innocent.

This may be obvious or obviously wrong, it's been a while since I read any HPMOR other than the last few chapters.

Spoiler:
It seems Avada Kedavra is the opposite of Muggle weapons, where the standard story is that the first kill is the hardest, and subsequent ones progressively easier.

The true Patronus - requiring the Wizard to embrace Life - and the true Killing Curse - requiring an indifference to murder - seem to be reasonably mutually exclusive.

Spoiler:
But why would the opposite of hating a person be indifference to murder. I think it makes much more sense for it to be indifference to a person, which IMO Harry has great capacity for.


Spoiler:
He wasn't comparing Hate and Indifference directly - he was pondering that Hate was an inadequate opposite for Love, and then realized that Indifference was a better choice of opposite for Love.

Regarding Harry being unable to cast the curse but still being indifferent about Filch - being indifferent to Filch getting fired is not the same as being indifferent to his death.

User avatar
Yakk
Poster with most posts but no title.
Posts: 11129
Joined: Sat Jan 27, 2007 7:27 pm UTC
Location: E pur si muove

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Wed Aug 06, 2014 5:49 pm UTC

102 level 2 magic:
Spoiler:
Level 2 Patronis requires you to embrace Life as the highest virtue.

Level 2 Avada Kedavra requires you to be indifferent to the Death of the person you are casting it on.

Harry may be capable of casting Avada Kadavra at the first level -- the ability to muster up the hate required to want to kill someone with your bare hands is almost certainly within his reach (with cause). But that doesn't let you cast it at-will.

And, if AK is like Patronis, maybe your hate has to come with a touch of indifference to life to work. Ie, the level 1 Avada Kadavra casters are actually using their Hate to amplify their indifference to Life, and level 1 Patronis are using their love of something to amplify their embracing of Life itself.

Then, so long as Harry can cast Level 2 Patronis (ie, he embraces Life itself), even a killing Hate may not be enough to allow Harry to cast Level 1 Avada Kadavra.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

Last edited by JHVH on Fri Oct 23, 4004 BCE 6:17 pm, edited 6 times in total.

User avatar
Adam H
Posts: 1267
Joined: Thu Jun 16, 2011 6:36 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Adam H » Wed Aug 06, 2014 7:51 pm UTC

Harry has already decided that he will kill anyone that gets in the way of his quest for immortality; at least he would be indifferent to their deaths. And if filch committed suicide because he lost his job (totally plausible) I don't think Harry would lose any sleep.
-Adam

rmsgrey
Posts: 3655
Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2011 6:35 pm UTC

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby rmsgrey » Wed Aug 06, 2014 9:25 pm UTC

Adam H wrote:Harry has already decided that he will kill anyone that gets in the way of his quest for immortality; at least he would be indifferent to their deaths. And if filch committed suicide because he lost his job (totally plausible) I don't think Harry would lose any sleep.


Deciding that the benefit from killing someone outweighs the intrinsic loss associated with any death doesn't make you indifferent to that death.

Additionally, killing someone when you're indifferent to whether they die or not is about as easy as proposing to someone when you're indifferent as to whether you find out whether they're willing to marry you or not.

User avatar
Whizbang
The Best Reporter
Posts: 2238
Joined: Fri Apr 06, 2012 7:50 pm UTC
Location: New Hampshire, USA

Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Whizbang » Fri Aug 08, 2014 1:18 pm UTC

I just started this awesome, awesome re-imagining the other day. I love it. I'm at chapter 27. I've already recommended it to all my reader friends. I am trying to decide in I want to go through and read this thread before I read the rest of HPMOR.


Return to “Books”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 3 guests