Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

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Zarq
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Zarq » Tue Oct 02, 2012 12:03 pm UTC

I've got a new smartphone, and installed an epub reader on it so I could easily read this. I'm at chapter 7 (I think). I quite like it.
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thalia
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby thalia » Wed Oct 03, 2012 9:30 am UTC

Well, I finished it, including the current latest update. I have to say, I feel like it's.. it's really great. The ethical sides of it is masterfully crafted, and it goes along with a really interesting story to begin with.
One of these days.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Linmark » Fri Nov 09, 2012 4:37 am UTC

I've read someone who dismissed Quirell for being Sirius, because Black is supposed to be in Azkaban.
Spoiler:
However, in chapter 58 in Azkaban, a prisonner is heard repeating "i'm not serious, i'm not serious".
I think it can be safely assumed Black is somewhere else... Hat & Coat ? Quirell ?

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Vaniver » Sun Nov 25, 2012 7:28 am UTC

So, it's not HP related, but another fanfic that came out of LessWrong (and is well worth reading): Friendship is Optimal.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby rmsgrey » Thu Nov 29, 2012 4:50 pm UTC

WarDaft wrote:Here's a good question... how does Hogwarts function financially? There's never any mention of wizarding tuition fees so far as I can tell... if there were, Hermione would have had trouble getting in. I suppose it's possible that they have low costs, what with magical food generation and such, but they still have a faculty. Dumbeldore's low on supporters, and everything suggests that his supporters aren't from the richer nooks of the wizarding society.


In the books, they're probably funded by old money from the Founders and various grateful former pupils. The costs are low - the castle seems to be largely self-sustaining - if it weren't for the need to maintain a steady flow of pupils, you could probably seal Hogwarts and its grounds off from the rest of the universe and not have any of the inhabitants notice, so the only real operating costs are spending money for the staff, and any consumables imported for the students. I've no idea how MoR Hogwarts is funded, but living off the interest of a healthy investment portfolio seems not unreasonable...

In general, JK doesn't seem to have given much, if any, thought to the economics of Magical Britain - some families are clearly Old Money, the Weasleys are a high middle-class income divided among too many children, Harry inherited a small fortune (which suggests his father probably inherited large sums of wizard money) but generally money moves as the plot demands...

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby HungryHobo » Thu Nov 29, 2012 6:33 pm UTC

I'm kinda surprised that harry hasn't yet taken issue with magical britain witholding magical medical care from muggles.
He was quick enough to provide his parents with a first aid kit.

there's a real world equivilent with the 3rd world and patented medecine but with harrys views on death I'm not sure how he'd feel about a wizard doctor who doesn't occasionally choose to hang out in a muggle childrens cancer hospice under an invisibility cloak quietly making the tumors go away.

if that's legally forbidden then it would seem an even larger reason to hate the magical government.

in the cannon books it's fine, it would spoil the story to bring real world woes and suffering into it but in TMOR they don't ignore the non-magical world.

Imagine TMOR Harry finding someone in azkaban who was sent there for using magic to heal sick muggle kids in violation of the statue of secrecy or some such.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Catmando » Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:54 am UTC

New chapter up.

Spoiler:
My only speculation as of right now is that Quirrelmort borrowed the immortality scroll, using it failed, and now he's feeling the adverse effects. I think this is way too obvious, though--I guessed it as soon as the scroll was mentioned, but then it was strongly implied,
"Yes, his little naptimes," Moody said darkly. "Amelia thinks he stepped into the path of a high-level curse. Sounds to me more like a Dark ritual gone wrong!"
which leads me to believe it's wrong, although given that it was mentioned, I expect the immortality scroll will factor into everything later on somehow.

EDIT: Oh, I should probably mention what happened. Quirrelmort possibly = David Monroe, Moody shows up, Snape gets to reveal the puzzle behind the Dark Mark, prophecy stuff, Snape maybe wavering in his allegiance to Dumbledore.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Adam H » Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:32 pm UTC

Don't forget to read the new version of chapter 85, also!

Spoiler:
Chapter 85 is like the saddest thing I can imagine. Wow.

A couple things about chapter 86:
Quirrel totally and obviously reads Harry's mind. Lawl.
"You're out of practice, boy," Moody said. Harry wasn't looking at the man's face, but his voice was deadly grim. "And I'll warn you of this but once. Voldie isn't like any other Legilimens in recorded history. He doesn't need to look you in the eyes, and if your shields are that rusty he'd creep in so softly you'd never notice a thing."

"Wrong," said the Defense Professor. "Lucius Malfoy would trust no servant with that mission. But suppose some Hogwarts Professor, intelligent enough to cast a well-formed Memory Charm but of no great fighting ability, is visiting Hogsmeade. From a dark alley the black-clad form of Malfoy steps forth - he would go in person, for this - and speaks to her a single word."
"Imperio."
"Legilimens, rather," said Professor Quirrell.

I like how Harry nonchalantly asks Quirrel if he knew anyone at Hogwarts in 1943. Very smooth, Harry. :roll:
"I'll test it experimentally," Harry said. And then, as everyone looked at him, "I'll ask Professor Quirrell a question that the real David Monroe would know - like who else was in the Slytherin class of 1945, or something like that - hopefully without making it obvious. It won't be definitive proof, he could've studied the role, but it would be evidence.
"Actually," Harry said then, putting a thoughtful frown on his face, "I don't suppose you know offhand if any of the current Professors at Hogwarts were around back when Mr. Hagrid got framed in 1943?"
"Dumbledore taught Transfiguration, Kettleburn taught Magical Creatures, and Vector taught Arithmancy," Professor Quirrell said at once. "And I believe that Bathsheda Babbling, now of Ancient Runes, was then a Ravenclaw prefect. But Mr. Potter, there is no reason to suppose that anyone besides You-Know-Who was involved in that affair."


So why didn't Voldemort win the war after just 10 minutes? I assume it's just a means to an end (immortality or maybe becoming the ruler of Britain as David Munroe) and Voldemort doesn't actually care about winning the war. Why doesn't Harry immediately come to that conclusion? Another hypothesis is that Voldemort is quite stupid until he tries to kill Harry and part of Harry is transferred into him. That seems unlikely though.

Also, I wonder if Snape is telling the truth about the dark mark? Since his bond with Dumbledore has weakened, he could be lying about it - he sees that Harry is close to finding out a way to verify the secret of the dark mark, so he quickly invents with a plausible explanation.

Lastly: David Monroe Shoup. I don't see anything there other than a WWII veteran who was later critical of the vietnam war, which parallels "David Monroe" well enough.
-Adam

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Vaniver
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Vaniver » Mon Dec 17, 2012 7:23 pm UTC

rmsgrey wrote:the Weasleys are a high middle-class income divided among too many children
The Weasleys are explicitly lower class economically. (One of the complaints about MoR relative to Canon is that Harry was sort of a middle ground between professional-class Hermione and working-class Ron, but MoR!Harry is above both professional-class MoR!Hermione and noble MoR!Draco, and MoR!Ron is discarded as useless.)

David Monroe is a reference to another HP fanfic.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby rmsgrey » Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:42 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:
rmsgrey wrote:the Weasleys are a high middle-class income divided among too many children
The Weasleys are explicitly lower class economically. (One of the complaints about MoR relative to Canon is that Harry was sort of a middle ground between professional-class Hermione and working-class Ron, but MoR!Harry is above both professional-class MoR!Hermione and noble MoR!Draco, and MoR!Ron is discarded as useless.)

David Monroe is a reference to another HP fanfic.


The Weasleys are definitely not working-class - Arthur is a fairly high-ranking bureaucrat - rubbing shoulders with the Minister of Magic, and Molly is a full-time housewife, and their kids all (except possibly the twins) have respectable middle-class careers. They're not the working-class dustbin-men, construction workers, miners, street-sweepers, shop clerks, etc, nor the independently wealthy upper-class.

The Weasleys' disposble income may be similar to that of lower-class families, but that's because of large expenditures, not because of low income, which, to my mind, puts them out of the lower-class economically as well as socially.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Jorpho » Tue Dec 18, 2012 4:09 am UTC

Blargh, I'm going to have to finish A Canticle for Leibowitz before I can start on this again. But the good news is that by the time that happens, there will probably be plenty to read! I just have to avoid spoilers.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:54 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Is quirrell the kind of dark lord with one name [voldemort], or the kind of dark lord who changes them as clothes [quirinus quirrell, jeremy jaffe, david monroe]?

Now even I am having difficulty believing Quirrell is Voldemort.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Josephine » Tue Dec 18, 2012 10:58 pm UTC

Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
Spoiler:
Is quirrell the kind of dark lord with one name [voldemort], or the kind of dark lord who changes them as clothes [quirinus quirrell, jeremy jaffe, david monroe]?
Spoiler:
He's the kind who changes them as clothes, easily. I've heard some convincing arguments that Voldemort is just another persona. It would make sense for why he didn't take over in ten seconds, for one.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Sheikh al-Majaneen » Tue Dec 18, 2012 11:22 pm UTC

I have been considering how that would work,
Spoiler:
Voldemort and his primary enemy being the same person

But it really does not make more sense.

And EY has repeatedly been mentioning the existence of a surplus of plotters.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby zombie_monkey » Wed Dec 19, 2012 4:04 am UTC

Josephine wrote:
Sheikh al-Majaneen wrote:
Spoiler:
Is quirrell the kind of dark lord with one name [voldemort], or the kind of dark lord who changes them as clothes [quirinus quirrell, jeremy jaffe, david monroe]?
Spoiler:
He's the kind who changes them as clothes, easily. I've heard some convincing arguments that Voldemort is just another persona. It would make sense for why he didn't take over in ten seconds, for one.

I thought that's pretty much settled and obvious?

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby raudorn » Sun Dec 23, 2012 5:02 pm UTC

Regarding Ch.87:

Huh. I would've thought the second Harry connects the dots "Philosopher's Stone" and "Longevity" he'd be all over it. Instead he just ignores it? I'm not sure, but didn't Harry hear something about the PS in Hogwarts already? Wouldn't that significantly increase the chance that there's some truth behind it (from his perspective)? Then again I might be confusing fanfics again. Not the first time. :D

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby thalia » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:39 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Harry is presented with a challenge - the philosopher's stone being so hard to create only one person has done it - and he chooses to IGNORE THAT? He doesn't even read the details? lame.
One of these days.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Pluvialis » Sun Dec 23, 2012 7:46 pm UTC

thalia wrote:
Spoiler:
Harry is presented with a challenge - the philosopher's stone being so hard to create only one person has done it - and he chooses to IGNORE THAT? He doesn't even read the details? lame.


He doesn't believe in it.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Catmando » Mon Dec 24, 2012 4:13 am UTC

Spoiler:
I assume this sets the stage for Harry to get surprised by some encounter with Flamel in the future. There's no way he can dismiss it indefinitely.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby thalia » Tue Dec 25, 2012 5:38 pm UTC

Pluvialis wrote:
thalia wrote:
Spoiler:
Harry is presented with a challenge - the philosopher's stone being so hard to create only one person has done it - and he chooses to IGNORE THAT? He doesn't even read the details? lame.


He doesn't believe in it.


Still, seems silly to dismiss it without even asking Hermione about why -she- does.

Spoiler:
Especially after the thing with Voldie and how he doesn't really exist, but then somehow does anyway. I dunno.. I just thought he'd be more curious.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Listic » Tue Dec 25, 2012 6:44 pm UTC

(misunderstanding resolved, post deleted by author)
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Vaniver » Tue Dec 25, 2012 9:06 pm UTC

Vaniver wrote:So, it's not HP related, but another fanfic that came out of LessWrong (and is well worth reading): Friendship is Optimal.
And now it has fanfiction of its own.
I mostly post over at LessWrong now.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Quizatzhaderac » Thu Dec 27, 2012 6:44 pm UTC

Moody talking about how Voldemort made a name for himself got me thinking about how he literally made a name for himself. Specifically the sense of foreboding doom at saying his name. Nobody seems to have any trouble trouble mentioning Grindelwald, which suggests that it isn't something that just naturally happens when somebody become scary enough/ kills enough people/ et cetera.

My hypothesis is that "Voldemort" is a spell of some sort. In which case it might have some other bad effects. I also conjecture that Moody suspects this, and as such uses "Voldie" in lieu of "Voldemort".

Spoiler:
Regarding the puzzle of the dark mark: Harry seems to be giving himself WAY to much credit. He didn't solve it in five minutes, or even five months. The moment he heard about the dark mark he accepted that they actually marked death eaters. Dumbledore needed to point out that the puzzle existed, which puts him halfway to solving it.

Harry didn't even really solve the second half either. Luckily the 20 questions approach disabled the bind (instead of forcing the death eater to stonewall the questioner, binding him to not a tall a lie or killing the death eater) and there was a Death Eater that wanted to reveal the secret.

Regarding the security considerations of the ministry of magic: Apart from the many ways the ministry could be deceptively undefended (like Merlin casting a bunch of uber anti-charm, -transmutation, -manipulation spells), Harry didn't consider the possibility that the ministry of magic was under constant manipulation. In which case becoming the dominate manipulator would (potentially) require shifting through multiple layers of hidden manipulators.
The thing about recursion problems is that they tend to contain other recursion problems.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby HungryHobo » Sat Dec 29, 2012 8:28 pm UTC

Quizatzhaderac wrote:
Spoiler:
Regarding the security considerations of the ministry of magic: Apart from the many ways the ministry could be deceptively undefended (like Merlin casting a bunch of uber anti-charm, -transmutation, -manipulation spells), Harry didn't consider the possibility that the ministry of magic was under constant manipulation. In which case becoming the dominate manipulator would (potentially) require shifting through multiple layers of hidden manipulators.


yes... that did seem a tad... arrogant.
I mean I can think of lots of ways to kill people or assassinate people (many of them probably impractical for reasons I haven't considered) but I don't just assume that nobody has thought of the same thing nor that someone would obviously use all such methods to take over the world or that all defences against such things would be obvious.

I think yudkowsky has started to mix up "rational" and "inventive".

the world is full of creative people who may not be very rational.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby AlexRose » Sun Dec 30, 2012 10:10 pm UTC

I'll give Yudkowsky the benefit of the doubt and assume Harry is being dangerously arrogant, which has both happened before and bit him in the ass (first encounter with Snape).


On a speculative note, regarding the Eye of Vance/True Invisibility Cloak interaction:

"That isn't any ordinary device. It can see right through my invisibility cloak. You dodged my Transfigured taser as soon as I started raising it, even though I didn't speak any incantations..."


Which is odd considering in Chapter 61, the Eye didn't see through the invisibility cloak:

"Moody's Patronus is reporting to the me in Azkaban," Albus said. "His Eye saw nothing; and if the Eye of Vance does not see a thing, then that thing does not exist. Yourself?"


My first thought was that Moody noticed cloaked-shaped blind spots in the office; with the Eye of Vance, blind spots in a magic-dense room are dead giveaways, especially ones that are raising their hands to launch a projectiles. And Dumbledore seems to assume that the Eye of Vance should have no problems with the invisibility cloak. Yet the Cloak evaded the sight of the Eye back in Azkaban for whatever reason. So either Dumbledore is mistaken about the Eye, or he forgot to mention something rather pertinent about an artifact a primary suspect has.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby HungryHobo » Tue Jan 01, 2013 9:40 pm UTC

AlexRose wrote:My first thought was that Moody noticed cloaked-shaped blind spots in the office; with the Eye of Vance, blind spots in a magic-dense room are dead giveaways, especially ones that are raising their hands to launch a projectiles. And Dumbledore seems to assume that the Eye of Vance should have no problems with the invisibility cloak. Yet the Cloak evaded the sight of the Eye back in Azkaban for whatever reason. So either Dumbledore is mistaken about the Eye, or he forgot to mention something rather pertinent about an artifact a primary suspect has.

I think he tries to stick with the properties objects have in cannon so a thought...

Dumbledore warns that the Dementors' perception of humans is unhindered by invisibility cloaks, as they sense people through emotions.


perhaps yudkowsky will have moodys eye functioning by a similar manner to Dementors senses which traditionally cannot be fooled easily.
(This would open up another chance to best moody if harry figures it out and neatly tie up the problem.)

the cloak doesn't hide him but the harrys patronus does.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Jorpho » Mon Jan 28, 2013 2:33 am UTC

So I'm finally reading Chapter 85 again, and something clicked:
The only deuterium source under Nazi control had been a captured facility in occupied Norway, which had been knocked out by bombs and sabotage, causing a total of twenty-four civilian deaths.
But http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=pl ... k78#t=120s says the destruction of the facility was lauded for having caused zero deaths. Who's right here? I'm not sure I can trust Wikipedia, because someone isn't using the right source here, and Wikipedia might be using the same source.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Mon Jan 28, 2013 3:10 am UTC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Norwegian_ ... r_sabotage
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SF_Hydro
there where many attacks on that location, and many civilians died.

That particular raid? Maybe nobody died.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby WarDaft » Tue Jun 11, 2013 7:39 am UTC

Actually, it occurs to me that
Spoiler:
Mr Hat and Cape can't be Quirrelmort, unless it was stated somewhere in the Author's notes that he is. Quirrelmort is a perfect occlumens, and better at understanding people than most understand themselves. He's not dumb enough to need many attempts to persuade Hermione. Even if he tried it with that persona once, her unease would make it obvious he had to be less scary. I can't actually recall any point in the story at all where anyone ever out-deduces Quirrel... this being the first example of that happening is... not quite right.

Snape on the other hand...
...Has been directly instigating a conflict surrounding and using Hermoine.
...Is cunning, but he doesn't understand people very well, so will need to brute force the convincing.
...Probably doesn't love Harry's mother anymore after the events so far.
...Is literally the only other conceivable suspect.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby AlexRose » Sun Jun 30, 2013 12:04 am UTC

New chapters!

Spoiler:
Huh, did not expect that to happen.

I think it'd be more interesting if Herminone convincingly stays dead and Harry has to face the consequences of that; I mean Harry was already trying to rip apart the foundations of reality, now he just has an additional motivation.

I assumed our Defense Professor was behind this, but his reactions surprised me:

The Defense Professor had tried to send an impulse to retreat, to don the Cloak of Invisibility and flee...


Despite its little ups and downs, on the whole this had been a surprisingly good day -


If this was the work of the Defense Professor, I'm confused as to what he hoped to accomplish. He didn't want Harry to fight or come in contact with the troll, and surely there are more discrete and reliable ways of assassinating Hermonine.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby KrO2 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:22 am UTC

Spoiler:
GAAAHHHH!
Well, I knew someone was going to die soon, but I didn't expect it to be her. The author posted on TVTropes asking someone to write a trope for The Resurrector (a character whose main goal is to resurrect another, like Orpheus for Eurydice). So we can expect Harry to prioritize getting her back over going all dies irae on the entirety of Wizarding Britain. This will surprise all of the characters and none of the readers.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby raudorn » Sun Jun 30, 2013 10:02 am UTC

Spoiler:
I half expected Harry to resurrect Hermione right there on the spot with his plot kai. After all, there's this whole "You're not dead until your brain deteriorates" thing going on with muggles and, you know, real life. But Harry was in no state to use his death-defying powers (signaled by the vanishing patronus) and the whole soul thing makes it even more difficult.

The other half was expecting Harry to undergo a complete mental breakdown with lots of yelling (a proper rage against the heavens), wild magic, another plot kai discharge and, if futile, blinding rage. I mostly expected blinding rage. There's no plot point that can't be not solved, no tension that can't be increased and no situation that can't be made worse with a fit of blinding rage by the protagonist.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Sun Jun 30, 2013 4:09 pm UTC

Spoiler:
The author put Hermionie in a refrigerator. I am disappointed , and will not be recommending this work to others in the future.
One of the painful things about our time is that those who feel certainty are stupid, and those with any imagination and understanding are filled with doubt and indecision - BR

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby raudorn » Sun Jun 30, 2013 5:21 pm UTC

I am not so sure of that just yet. It does look like it is heading into that direction, but the road may yet fork before that. In fact, you could argue that EY has the obligation to avoid that trope, because it was so easily foreseeable that the events lead to a plot situation that might be summarized as the trope you are referring to. He also wrote on the subreddit, that he was working on that particular scene in his head for years. I'm reasonably sure think it's possible, that he is aware of how the situation now looks and that this trope would be much worse than just bad storytelling (because it would undermine a lot of meaning you could find in the interpretation of the whole fanfic).

What I think will happen next is either
Spoiler:
Harry conserving Hermione's brain so her mind can be resurrected. There are souls (apparently), yes. But I can't imagine how having a completely intact brain would prevent sufficiently advanced medicine, in addition to magic, to bring her back to life. Maybe souls are referring to magic abilities or a presence the mind of a witch imprints on the magical world.
The other way would be for Harry to bring the world (or a subset thereof, or just himself) to a point where death is no longer a thing. But I can't see how that would make people aready dead come back to life. Unless magic provides a way to reverse entropy on a scale that you can power a local time reversal (on the preserved brain) by sacricing the negentropy of a few stars or so. Which would make for a nice prophecy... oh wait.
Which does bring us to the possibility that we did just see the construction of terrificly, perfectly troperific fridge. And that would be bad.


Spoilers avoided: 5

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby KrO2 » Sun Jun 30, 2013 8:10 pm UTC

Spoiler:
The author does not believe that this is a fridge. So we can't use the argument that it's too fridgetastic to be permanent.
As for what Harry does immediately next, the best thing I've heard is from the subreddit. He smashes his Time-Turner, which accomplishes...something. This is backed up by the sequence of events over Hermione's body: Harry turns away from Dumbledore—it feels like time was still fractured—repeat the paragraph. I don't put too much credence in that, but some kind of time-shenanigans is to be expected, especially now that he'd be completely willing to Mess With Time.
Or, he could use cryonics and put her in a literal refrigerator.

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby curtis95112 » Mon Jul 01, 2013 2:18 am UTC

Spoiler:
If this death is permanent, the tens of thousands of words on the heroine stuff become rather empty.
While that would nicely reflect the views of the author on life and death and realism, it's terrible storytelling.
I expect Hermione to be back in a short time(in-universe of course, no telling how long it'll take irl. And given the tone of the chapter, bringing her back early would also be terrible storytelling.)
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Yakk
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Yakk » Mon Jul 01, 2013 11:13 am UTC

Spoiler:
The refrigerator meme is simple: introduce a female character to romantically like to your protagonist, then have the antagonist kill her in a grusome way. The character is reduced to being motivation for the main male character to go angry and badass. Women in refrigerators is a common trope and criticism of comic book romances.

Now, Hermionie had been going on about how her character was being reduced to her relationship with Harry; this would be an extreme example of that. Lampshading what you are doing does not a free pass get.

Undoimg it in universe in negative time does not give you a pass: the universe where this is problematic is ours.
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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Pluvialis » Mon Jul 01, 2013 12:12 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I don't think it's really relevant that Hermione is female. At worst it bears an unfortunate resemblance to the fridge meme, but Yudkowsky lost his brother and was powerfully affected by it, so it makes sense for his protagonist to go through the same experience. Both Harry and Yudkowsky have become The Resurrector. Hermione's gender was inherited from canon. Wouldn't it be worse, in a way, if the second main character had been male as well as the first?

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby thefreiburger » Tue Jul 02, 2013 1:59 pm UTC

I am wondering if...
Spoiler:
...Hermione has created a horcrux. Perhaps an attempted murder (-->Draco) is already enough to make one, if you truly mean to murder. After all, she has been acting quite weird since then; something you would expect from a 12-year-old girl with a split soul.
When she (seemingly) died, "something" left her body. Sounds pretty much like some horcrux is still binding her mind to the physical world, so she is now flying around as a bodyless ghost, like Voldemort did.
What do you think?

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Re: Harry Potter and the Methods of Rationality

Postby Kolko » Tue Jul 02, 2013 4:25 pm UTC

Spoiler:
That sounds incredibly unlike the Hermione we've come to know in this canon and it doesn't fit with what we know about horcruxes. It still seems possible though, the Hermione from the last few chapters clearly wasn't herself, though she did have good reasons for that with the (possibly framed) murder attempt.


All in all, the last few chapters have left me incredibly confused, I hope we get some answers in this part of the story arc.
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