A Song of Ice and Fire

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby spi » Fri Dec 28, 2007 3:50 am UTC

mosc wrote:well, I finished the 4th book. I did like it and found it similar in quality to the earlier books. I did notice he said "within the year" for #5 and he said that back in June 05 so he's already like 18 months late and running. He seems to get more and more time between each book. We'll be lucky to see #7 before 2025!


I finally finished the 4th book over my Christmas vacation. Once I got into it it was a good read even without any of my favorite characters. There are definitely interesting things going down.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Eoin » Sun Dec 30, 2007 4:21 am UTC

Midnight wrote:i think I want sandor to kill gregor, next time around. except sandor is dead too.


Spoiler:
I think you should re-read the chapter in AFFC where Brienne visits the monks/priests. Pay attention to the gravedigger and the horse

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby senmoonsect » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:20 pm UTC

Sansa isn't such a bad character. I mean she herself is kind of lame, but she has so much itnteresting/important stuff going on around her. So I guess actually my first statement was incorrect, she is a bad (well, lame) character, but she is an interesting point of view character to watch from. I can see her dieing and then at the last second doing something important, maybe killing her husband or something, I don't know. I think shes getting more interesting herself, too, but she just takes a lot longer to evolve out of "oh I'm a nobleman's daughter la la la" than other characters. Or something, I don't know.

Eddard, yeah, hes cool, but he was, in a way, one of the weakest characters in that he wasn't particularly smart. He could do a bit of underhanded stuff, but not on the same level (or perhaps multitude of levels) that a lot of the other characters could.

EDIT: And oh Midnight if you ever read this you have more posts than me nyah.
Last edited by senmoonsect on Fri Jan 04, 2008 2:42 am UTC, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby xooll » Thu Jan 03, 2008 11:40 pm UTC

I really like Sandor Clegane. He is so damned cool. And so full of contradictions.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Midnight » Sat Jan 05, 2008 11:09 am UTC

senmoonsect wrote:Sansa isn't such a bad character. I mean she herself is kind of lame, but she has so much itnteresting/important stuff going on around her. So I guess actually my first statement was incorrect, she is a bad (well, lame) character, but she is an interesting point of view character to watch from. I can see her dieing and then at the last second doing something important, maybe killing her husband or something, I don't know. I think shes getting more interesting herself, too, but she just takes a lot longer to evolve out of "oh I'm a nobleman's daughter la la la" than other characters. Or something, I don't know.

Eddard, yeah, hes cool, but he was, in a way, one of the weakest characters in that he wasn't particularly smart. He could do a bit of underhanded stuff, but not on the same level (or perhaps multitude of levels) that a lot of the other characters could.

EDIT: And oh Midnight if you ever read this you have more posts than me nyah.



more than 2x now.
and i wouldn't call him not-smart so much as more... oldfashioned. from a bygone age, an age when the Sword of the Morning was about,a nd Gerold Hightower was still kicking ass. Back in those times, the lines were well drawn, there was no middleground, and it was either 'hey i'm supporting tradition, even though the king is crazy!' and 'hey, the king is crazy!'. now it's like.. agendas and ulterior motives and a half dozen factions and backstabbers that are only half assholes cause they're really cool when they aren't backstabbing you!
I suppose the lannister sideswitch was the herald of the new age of dishonor, with jaime on the iron throne as the capstone of the transformation... shows kind of a third motive, foreshadowing many factions and suspicious motives.
maybe i'm looking too deep into it, but am I seeing biblical connectiosn? i mean the 2 sides so clearly defined, as the 'age of antiquity', the old testament, and 'nowadays' there's assholes that kill jesus and are, in general, assholes.

probably reading wayyyyy to far into it though.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby senmoonsect » Sat Jan 05, 2008 5:49 pm UTC

I hope you are.

Also you can divide the factions like that, yes; tons of small evil people all in one country. But also theres Daenerys, who isn't really good or evil as far as I can tell. She started kind of good/abused, but now shes just kind of weird. So you can divide it like that. And also all the factions where she is are kind of weird too. I don't know if they are more evil or not but they're more bizarre.

Theres the Night Watch and the Wildings. Neither of them is particularly good or evil either I don't think... And the Others, who are certainly evil as far as I can tell.

So I don't know if it works out like that :P

Also, where have you been >>

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:03 pm UTC

I think by the last book it will be much more cut and dry good vs evil. The fourth book had a lot of info (finally) on the underlying plot in some of those Sam chapters. If you read those real closely, you can pick out a good bit of foreshadowing.

Spoiler:
how can you read in that Clegane is alive? EITHER of them?
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby SecondTalon » Mon Jan 07, 2008 6:18 pm UTC

I guess I'm alone in actually liking Sansa more and more.

But, I also like hopelessly naive characters that finally wake up and realize everything around them is complete shit and the only way out is to stab faces.

Or, to put it in a Clueian phrasing - Sansa with the knitting needles in the Library.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Mon Jan 07, 2008 10:56 pm UTC

Do you guys remember the Scene in FF6 where the party finally meets up after splitting into three and meeting lots of new people?

I keep having this scene play out in my head very similar to that where the stark kids all magically show up in the same place one after the other in cool ways with cool friends and drastically different perspectives and skill sets. Then they go off and save the world together using their unique traits.

John: Tactician, Command, pretty good with his very fancy 'bastard' sword (god that was clever and awesome and stupid all at the same time)
Sansa: Political mastermind and can predict people's actions. Keeps the Lanisters in line!
Bran: Basic overpowered Mage/Warlock/Skin Walker/Green Seer/Whatever
Arya: Stealth Assassin and master of disguise.

GOD DAMN FF6 was good.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby senmoonsect » Tue Jan 08, 2008 1:44 am UTC

Uh it doesn't work that way.

And I wouldn't call Sansa really a master of anything except like... I don't know. Nothing really.

Littlefinger though... she could learn things from that guy (maybe).

Dude I'm still waiting for zombie whats her name to come and kill everyone. I'm pretty excited about that idea. And the red lady. Theres like hell of weird ladies that are going to be doing who the fuck knows what next book, cause Daenyris is going to do stuff I hope too. Its going to be like the meeting of the weird magic um... queen... people.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby scowdich » Tue Jan 08, 2008 4:28 am UTC

mosc wrote:John: Tactician, Command, pretty good with his very fancy 'bastard' sword (god that was clever and awesome and stupid all at the same time)
Uh, there actually are such things as bastard swords - people well-trained in their use can sort of "switch-hit", using them comfortably one- or two-handed, but typically two-handed. The katana is a bastard sword with a wonderful PR campaign.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Midnight » Tue Jan 08, 2008 5:26 am UTC

yeah, him being a bastard and having a bastard sword is just a lucky coincidence. it's entirely possible that martin went "bastard... this bastard needs a sword... why... i'll use a BASTARD SWORD!" but i'd like to think he thought out the mormonts having bastard swords in general cause they're giant bear-people.

sort of.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Tue Jan 08, 2008 7:01 am UTC

I know damn well what a bastard sword is. I was just laughing that of all the sword types, thats' what he wanted him to have.

And obviously I'm talking a few years down the line when sansa has learned all there is to know from littlefinger and grows into her womanly charm. Kinda like non-evil Cersi.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Midnight » Fri Jan 11, 2008 3:52 am UTC

mosc wrote:I know damn well what a bastard sword is. I was just laughing that of all the sword types, thats' what he wanted him to have.

And obviously I'm talking a few years down the line when sansa has learned all there is to know from littlefinger and grows into her womanly charm. Kinda like non-evil Cersi.



PARRRAAADOXXXX THE UNIVERSE IS COLLAPSING.

but man i hope she gets ownt by... someone who can take the mountain that rides.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Cabhan » Fri Jan 11, 2008 5:25 am UTC

Am I the only one thinking that Arya is somewhat unrealistic? I mean, I really like her character, but (iirc) she's 11 years old. Just always strikes me as a bit unbelievable.

And spi and mosc, welcome to the group of those of us waiting desperately for the next one!

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Phisioni » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:32 am UTC

Everyone complains about book 4, but as much as I love Jon, Arya, Tyrion, etc., it was nice that somebody else got character development. Like, y'know, Jaime.

Spoiler:
Who I really hated most of the first three books, then choppy chop, now he's looking around and realizing that Cersei's a crazy bitch and everything's a mess. Then there's the whole thing of "who'll end up being in charge of Westoros" that he's noticing the Lannister's aren't really in the running for.

Also, who really wants Melisandre to get a smack? Pow! Right in the kisser! I would smile a big smiley smile at that scene. I'm thinking Jaime with his metal hand. Anyone else in?
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Jan 11, 2008 6:51 pm UTC

Arya's one of my favorites. She started off hard and stubborn and frivolous, and everything that has happened to her has been like one purifying fire after another. She's not the same girl, I'd be wouldn't be surprised if she no longer even remembers herself as being a Stark.

I'm DYING to read about the siblings reunion, Jon Snow and Bran, Sasha and Ayra, when they all get to the same place, its going to be quiet shocking. I wouldn't be surprised if YEARS pass, Jon Snow is master of the north, Bran has a cult following of soul dancers, Sasha has claimed a corner of the royal entourage, and Ayra is a blind crazy lore weaving assassin.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:06 pm UTC

I'm in denial that arya is actually blind now. I'm still hoping it's a temporary effect to teach her a lesson or something.

Yes, the meeting would kick ass. You do get the sense though that it will all be when they're a good bit older though. Particularly a theme in all four books has been following the children around who would seem to not be the major players for several more years. I keep expecting a 5 to 10 year jump at some point.

My other fear is that we'll just get to the point where they all meet up in order to save the world and he'll just end it. Just 7 books of forshadowing on some future world-changing event and we don't even get to the good part. He friggin loves to tease.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Phisioni » Fri Jan 11, 2008 7:09 pm UTC

Screw the siblings reuniting, I want Arya and Nymeria to reunite. Talk about an awesome team! One of them went off and began learning unimaginable secrets (and eating worms), and the other started a wolf revolution and now is waging a guerrilla war against humans. How cool is that?

mosc wrote:My other fear is that we'll just get to the point where they all meet up in order to save the world and he'll just end it. Just 7 books of forshadowing on some future world-changing event and we don't even get to the good part. He friggin loves to tease.


I think I'd be alright with 7000 pages of blueballing. So worth it.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Fri Jan 11, 2008 10:25 pm UTC

maybe she'll learn to see through nymeria's eyes. Ohh, that'd be awesome.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Guy_At_A_Keyboard » Sun Jan 13, 2008 6:15 pm UTC

I recently read the series through a third time (because I have no life) and I have to say, I've gone from hating the fourth book to thinking it's the equal of any of the other three. The character development for Jaime and the full introduction to House Martell made the many chapters of Cersei and Brienne worth it.
Spoiler:
Cersei finally getting hers (I hope!) didn't hurt either.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:02 am UTC

Jamie I liked and he really carried the fourth book the way Tyrion carried the second book but I thought the entire business with the greyjoys, dourne, and cercei could have been completely avoided. I particularly was frustrated with Cercei because I found her much less menacing when you were hearing her scheming directly rather than wondering what awful things she was plotting. I think he wanted to reduce her to an incompetent drunk or whatever but she was far more entertaining without being directly voiced.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Phisioni » Tue Jan 15, 2008 12:47 am UTC

I really liked Cersei's change. It was amazing how she and Jaime reacted to the world. She was always safe, he was always in danger. When the world crashed down, she remained safe and he grew perilously close to death. Then they encounter each other and she doesn't like that he's not been safe and kept intact, and then the fun starts. She's got no control over everything and flips out. It's brilliant how she goes mad so quickly. Jaime, on the other hand (haha, hand, cuz, y'know) gets calm, collected, a fantastic leader. It's a bit obvious use of a character foil, but I liked it accentuating Jaime's flowering.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Midnight » Tue Jan 15, 2008 2:04 am UTC

yeah I love jaime in the fourth...

but however untrue it is, i like to think that DAvos Seaworth carried the second book, not Tyrion. He, relaly, saw everything objectively, or at least with a mindset close enough to my own that it seemed objective, and even when other characters were narrating i'd be thinking of ihm...

i think him 'handling' the battle of the blackwater was a big bit.. when I read that the first time I was ilke "oh FUCK they got OWNED" but when I read it the second time I was freaking out about how AWESOME that battle was. he doesn't have enough epic scale battles.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Wed Jan 23, 2008 11:13 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
Spoiler:
how can you read in that Clegane is alive? EITHER of them?

Can somebody answer this one?
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Fossa » Thu Jan 24, 2008 1:30 am UTC

I'm finishing this series for the... fourth time? Going to answer that Clegane question and go over my favorite "Oh shit!" plot point. If you have any questions about the plot at all, ask me. All of this is for people who have finished all four books:

Clegane
Spoiler:
He didn't die. The Elder Brother found him, made a fake grave for him, marked it with his helmet, and took the wounded Clegane back to the Quiet Isle along with his horse Stranger. Both are seen on the Quiet Isle when Brienne visits with Septon Meribald. She is told he died, but the Elder Brother says that he HIMSELF died and was reborn on the island. This is what he is referring to when he says Clegane "died", though its also a convenient way to keep the penitent Clegane away from those who would do him harm for his former crimes.


Jon Snow
Spoiler:
Biggest missed plot point has to do with his lineage. Its a lot less cut and dry than most people think. Spoiler below this one is what I'm 99% sure is true.

Spoiler:
Jon Snow is not Eddard Stark's son. He is the bastard child of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. Lyanna, knowing that Robert would kill every last Targaryen he could get his hands on, made Eddard promise her that he would claim Jon as his own bastard to keep him clear of Robert's wrath. "Promise me, Ned" on the bloody bed, etc. Further proof? Recall Ned's fever dream when his leg was broken, where he and six others fought the last three members of the kingsguard. Only he and Howland Reed survived. Why were the kingsguard there? They were guarding the tower where Ned found Lyanna after the war. They must have been guarding Rhaegar's last child, the rightful king of Westeros. I am shipping that he and Daeneyrs get together in proper Targaryen fashion.


Worth noting for things to come:

Sansa Stark
Spoiler:
Specifically her fate. She is in a good deal of trouble. In her final chapter Petyr welcomes three new swords into his service. One of them is the Mad Mouse who Brienne travelled with. He knows what Sansa looks like and knew where to find her. It can not be chance that led him to take up service with Petyr Baelish. His plan was to take her back to Varys the Spider and sell her for gold. Varys is missing, of course, but he may not know that.


The Missing Sandsnake:
Spoiler:
The Sphinx in oldtown is Alleras, the missing sandsnake is Sarella. Not a coincidence.


Jaeqan Haeghar
Spoiler:
Spelling on that may be wrong, anyway, he was the man who gave Arya the iron coin, he was the one who killed Pate in the beginning of book 4 and took the iron key. Description is a dead match from when he vanished in Harrenhall after the Weasel Soup incident.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:25 pm UTC

I totally disagree with your John stuff but thanks for some of the pointers

Spoiler:
Seriously, Ghost is enough proof that he's a stark. You can theorize on who his mother is up oneside and down the other although I think they strongly hinted she was some lady Eddard intended to marry until his brother died. Regardless, his role is set to me. He's the head of the watch, the bastard son of a stark complete with his bastard sword and his stark wolf.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu Jan 24, 2008 5:32 pm UTC

@Fossa:
I may be wrong about Jon Snow, but I very strongly recall reading a bit about:
Spoiler:
Ned eventually unveiling, or having it be unveiled, that when he marched against the Taragyns he fell in love with some royal lady, Lady Asinstar or something with star in her name, and got her pregnant. He then remembered his duties to his dead brothers betrothed, and came back to Catelyn (remember, she was originally set to marry Ned older brother, who died in that fight). When Jon was delivered, it was the only request that Ned made of Catelyn, and due to Cats scorn for him, I think we safely assume that Jon IS of Stark decent.


Will eventually finish the fourth. Excited to find out about Bran, Sansa, Snow, and most of all Ayra.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Fossa » Fri Jan 25, 2008 12:22 am UTC

Spoiler:
I'm sure Ned did fall in love, but he did not father a bastard.
With Lyanna as his mother Jon's still a Stark of sorts; the blood of the First Men still flows in his veins. The old, nameless gods of the north could still have sent him Ghost.
Cat's scorn for Jon is because Ned claimed Jon as his own even though he isn't.
Think about it, why were the last three members of the King's Guard guarding Lyanna instead of young Viserys and Daeneyrs off on Dragonstone? The ONLY answer is that Rhaegar had fathered a son on Lyanna. As Rhaegar's last surviving child it was the rightful king, hence their presence outside the tower and the final battle where they tried to keep Ned and company out.
After that battle Ned did see Lyanna, but only moments before she died in a bloody bed (child birth!). This is where she said the phrase "Promise me, Ned!" that Ned recalls throughout the rest of his life. What was the promise if not to claim Jon and tell no one? She knew Robert Baratheon's nature and that Jon wouldn't be safe if he knew.


Seriously, unless you can explain the bit about the three members of the kings guard there's pretty much no way my theory can be wrong. The chapter in question is just shy of halfway through the first book. Its an Eddard chapter that begins "He dreamt an old dream, of three knights in white cloaks, and a tower long fallen, and Lyanna in her bed of blood." Relevant bits:

Spoiler:
Yet these were no ordinary three. They waited before the round tower, the red mountains of Dorne at their backs, their white cloaks blowing in the wind. And these were no shadows; their faces burned clear, even now. Ser Arthur Dayne, the Sword of the Morning, had a sad smile on his lips . . . Ser Oswell Whent was on one knee . . . Between them stood fierce old Ser Gerold Hightower, the White Bull, the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard.


So we have the last three members of the Kingsguard including their Lord Commander standing outside the tower where Lyanna waits in her bed of blood.

"I promise," he whispered. "Lya, I promise . . . "


So as she lay dying on her bed of blood he promised her something.


Edit:

Another pretty telling passage, this one from the next Eddard chapter:

Spoiler:
"My son Bran . . . "
To her credit, Cersei did not look away. "He saw us. You love your children, do you not?"
Robert had asked him that very same question, the morning of the melee. He gave her the same answer. "With all my heart."
"No less do I love mine."
Ned thought, If it came to that, the life of some child I did not know against Robb and Sansa and Arya and Bran and Rickon, what would I do?


When considering the lives of his own children vs the lives of a stranger he thinks of them in the order they were born, well, all but Jon who is omitted from the list. Admittedly he thinks of Jon not long after but *not* in the same manner.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby mosc » Fri Feb 01, 2008 7:36 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I re-read all those Eddard chapters and I think you're right. They make Rhaegar out to be such a horn dog that I can believe it. Jon Snow would still be a Stark by his mother. That seems equally sufficient to warrant a wolf. He still does share grandparents with the other stark... cousins.

Does that really make him the heir though? 1) Aemon was there heir and when he took the black that went out the window and 2) Rhaegar was not king.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Izawwlgood » Fri Feb 01, 2008 8:13 pm UTC

Fossa what do you mean by "Robert baratheons true nature" in regards to Jon Snow? Forgive me if its blatantly obvious, its been over a year since I tore through these.

Spoiler:
And I always thought Cat hated Jon because he wasn't 'just another bastard' child created in Neds 'manful lusts', but a child born of love?
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Fossa » Fri Feb 01, 2008 9:35 pm UTC

mosc wrote:
Spoiler:
I re-read all those Eddard chapters and I think you're right. They make Rhaegar out to be such a horn dog that I can believe it. Jon Snow would still be a Stark by his mother. That seems equally sufficient to warrant a wolf. He still does share grandparents with the other stark... cousins.

Does that really make him the heir though? 1) Aemon was there heir and when he took the black that went out the window and 2) Rhaegar was not king.


Spoiler:
Rhaegar was the prince, son of king Arys. Line of succession goes first born son of the first born son through last born son of the first born son, then to first born daughter of the first born son, etc. Arys first born son is Rhaegar.

After Rhaegar, Rhaegar's children would be first in line for the throne followed by Rhaegar's brother, Viserys, then Viserys's children, then Daenerys, then her children. So, technically Jon Snow would have been ahead of even Viserys as the rightful king of Westeros. Of course this all hinges on whether or not he really *is* a bastard or whether Rhaegar and Lyanna married properly (Yes, Rhaegar was already married. There was precident in some of the histories for Targaryens to take multiple wives).


Izawwlgood wrote:Fossa what do you mean by "Robert baratheons true nature" in regards to Jon Snow? Forgive me if its blatantly obvious, its been over a year since I tore through these.

Spoiler:
And I always thought Cat hated Jon because he wasn't 'just another bastard' child created in Neds 'manful lusts', but a child born of love?


Spoiler:
Robert hated all Targaryens because of the fact that Rhaegar "stole" Lyanna away from him. Eddard chapter near the start of book one:

"Daenerys Targaryen has wed some Dothraki horse-lord. What of it? Shall we send her a wedding gift?"
The king frowned. "A knife, perhaps. A good sharp one, and a bold man to wield it."
Ned did not feign surprise; Robert's hatred of the Targaryens was a madness in him. He remembered the angry words they had exchanged when Tywin Lannister had presented Robert with the corpses of Rhaegar's wife and children as a token of fealty. Ned had named that murder; Robert called it war. When he had protested that the young prince and princess were no more than babes, his new-made king had replied, "I see no babes. Only dragon-spawn." Not even Jon Arryn had been able to calm that storm. Eddard Stark had ridden out that very day in a cold rage, to fight the last battles of the war alone in the south. It had taken another death to reconcile them; Lyanna's death, and the grief they had shared over her passing.


So here we see that Robert had no qualms with killing Targaryen children, Eddard was fully aware of this. What's more, Jon Snow wasn't just any Targaryen child, he was the fruit of Lyanna and Rhaegar (either the woman who spurned him to be with the man he hated, or the fruit of the man who stole and killed the woman he loved). Either way Robert most certainly would have killed Jon if he had known who he really was.

As for Cat hating Jon, you have the reason right, but its her reason for hating Jon based on what she believes to be true. She's simply wrong. Ned never told her the truth (hence all the talk throughout the first book about the price Ned paid to keep some of his promises).

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Midnight » Sat Feb 02, 2008 8:06 am UTC

mosc wrote:I totally disagree with your John stuff but thanks for some of the pointers

Spoiler:
Seriously, Ghost is enough proof that he's a stark. You can theorize on who his mother is up oneside and down the other although I think they strongly hinted she was some lady Eddard intended to marry until his brother died. Regardless, his role is set to me. He's the head of the watch, the bastard son of a stark complete with his bastard sword and his stark wolf.



the odd-one-out of the wolves, the one least accepted, goes to the child least accepted? I think that PROVES something's a bit off, something beyond 'he was a bastard child who lived with his father the whole time and back then only the father mattered so nobody really CARES'.. something so far as
((SPLOITZ)) he's not really the son of eddard, etcetcetc and so forth. and it fits perfectly. I mean, Rhaegar kidnapped her. What's he gonna do, talk to his prisoner? orrrrrrr something else. THat deeply involves knocking her up. SO she ends up with the kingsguard guarding.. who? the person rhaegar kidnapped? cause old R-man is over in the trident at the time... A child though.. a forlorn little day-year old, someday heir to the iron throne? Could arthur dayne resist? Methinks not.
don't get me wrong, Jon Snow is a stark. He's raised by a stark,a nd if adopted kids tell us anything, their adopted parents ARE THE PARENTS in ways farrrr closer than biological parents. But that doesn't prevent the fact that he could kick daenrys's ass in a 'right-to-the-throne'-off. but.. jon snow's adaptable. He's a mormont, wearing the sword that jeor's son should have. He's a wildling, breaking his vows of chastity to be with a wildling woman, ET CETERA.((END SPLOITZ))
fits too damn well. Too damn well.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Izawwlgood » Sat Feb 02, 2008 5:23 pm UTC

Ashara Dayne. Thats who Ned's flashback alludes to his tryst with.

Spoiler:
As for Rhaegar raping Lynna, how do we know she wasn't already pregnant with Ned's child? There Taragyns have some pretty telling physical characteristics, and as Martin takes great pains to show the phenotypes of these houses, I would think Jon Snow would have something that gave him away as a Taragyn is this was true.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Midnight » Sat Feb 02, 2008 10:04 pm UTC

i'm sorry, lyanna pregnant with Eddard's child? That's incest, my friend. And Martin ALSO goes to great pains to talk about how rather horrific incest is except with the targaryns. Everyone else that does it is a brotherfucking whore.
uhhhh fuck.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby senmoonsect » Mon Feb 04, 2008 1:29 am UTC

Even if John is their son, he doesn't know it and Eddard, the last person to know who John's parents are, is dead. And besides that he swore off his ties to his family and anything else when he went to the wall.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Fossa » Mon Feb 04, 2008 9:54 am UTC

senmoonsect wrote:Even if John is their son, he doesn't know it and Eddard, the last person to know who John's parents are, is dead. And besides that he swore off his ties to his family and anything else when he went to the wall.


Spoiler:
Actually, thats not entirely accurate. TWO people survived the battle outside the tower where Lyanna apparently gave birth.

Eddard Stark and Howland Reed, the lord of the Cranogmen, father to the two young Reeds accompanying Bran north. There's a chance they know the truth (remember their surprise when they told Bran the story of the knight of the laughing tree upon hearing that he hadn't already heard the tale? A big part of that tale involved Lyanna and Ryger's love). Even if they don't, well, Bran's gift is impressive and not fully flushed out. I don't think it would be impossible for him to glean the truth about Jon's lineage down the line. Heck, Melissandre could be shown the vision as well. Some of her visions were of past events. Magic opens many doors for this information to come to light. Remember some of Daeney's visions in the palace of dust? Some were historically accurate recounts of past instances. So yeah, its not impossible for him to find out. As for Jon's vows...

What would happen if the wall should fall?
What would happen if, as the rightfull king, he can release himself from his own vows?

Just food for thought.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Ansob. » Mon Feb 04, 2008 10:24 am UTC

It's Ice and Fire, not Fire and Ice; and I wish Martin would hurry up and get the next one published, since I'm starting to tire of not having any good fantasy to read. I'd rather wish for two Steven Erikson novels instead, since the Malazan Book of the Fallen is better as far as I'm concerned, but you can't argue that A Song of Ice and Fire is interesting, at least.
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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby senmoonsect » Mon Feb 04, 2008 3:31 pm UTC

Fossa wrote:
senmoonsect wrote:Even if John is their son, he doesn't know it and Eddard, the last person to know who John's parents are, is dead. And besides that he swore off his ties to his family and anything else when he went to the wall.


Spoiler:
Actually, thats not entirely accurate. TWO people survived the battle outside the tower where Lyanna apparently gave birth.

Eddard Stark and Howland Reed, the lord of the Cranogmen, father to the two young Reeds accompanying Bran north. There's a chance they know the truth (remember their surprise when they told Bran the story of the knight of the laughing tree upon hearing that he hadn't already heard the tale? A big part of that tale involved Lyanna and Ryger's love). Even if they don't, well, Bran's gift is impressive and not fully flushed out. I don't think it would be impossible for him to glean the truth about Jon's lineage down the line. Heck, Melissandre could be shown the vision as well. Some of her visions were of past events. Magic opens many doors for this information to come to light. Remember some of Daeney's visions in the palace of dust? Some were historically accurate recounts of past instances. So yeah, its not impossible for him to find out. As for Jon's vows...

What would happen if the wall should fall?
What would happen if, as the rightfull king, he can release himself from his own vows?

Just food for thought.


Okay okay but even still. I don't really see him being accepted as the new kind by everyone of Howland Reed or Bran suddenly come out and say "OH BY THE WAY ALL YOU GUYS FIGHTING FOR THE THRONE UH THIS KID IS WHATS HIS NAME AND LYANNA'S SON!"

No...

Doesn't really look likely. And besides he has bigger things to worry about besides who sits on the throne.

BUT maybe. Yeah. Its possible.

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Re: Fire and Ice?

Postby Fossa » Tue Feb 05, 2008 12:48 am UTC

Spoiler:
Well, the point may not be so much the throne itself. Its just something important to keep in mind in regards to the overarching plot thats taking place.

As misguided as Melisandre has been with her misinterpreting the prophecy and all, she still, undoubtedly, has power. The emphasis she places on the power of king's blood is important. Nevermind the fact that by being a Targ as well as a Stark Jon has the blood of old Valyria in him. Considering what a big deal has been made over having "the blood of the First Men"... yeah. Dragons being the symbol of life, fire, and blood in any potential confrontation with the Others and the cold god who Rhllor opposes, well, it may prove significant. Then of course there's the whole Daeney+Jon thing.

If Daeney is the "prince" that was promised then she (not Stannis) is destined to lead the fight against the evil north of the wall, a fight Jon's already apart of, and Targ's do intermarry....


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