Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Wed May 20, 2015 3:45 pm UTC

I think the point is that in this world (and indeed, ours) the notion of raping someone you are married to is not something that often sticks. That Sansa was not forced to marry him against her will, soooooooooort of, means the people of Westeros (and again, some people of our time) won't view it as Ramsey raping her as much as Ramsey... mistreating her?

And the reason this is relevant is not because, as so often in GoT, HOORAY AWFUL THINGS HAPPENING, but because Sansa is maaaaaaaaaybe starting to take some ownership of her situation in the form of starting down the road of manipulating the Boltons to her own benefit. That the road is full of AWFUL THINGS doesn't mean that it's a road she didn't set down willingly - I rather liked the few conversations Littlefinger had with her where he gave her the option of fleeing or the option of trying to take back her home.

Yes, she's young and naive and probably didn't fully understand what she was getting herself into. I'm not suggesting being raped was intrinsically part of all this, and she consented to it or deserves it or any such.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Dark567 » Wed May 20, 2015 3:58 pm UTC

Yeah, think that sums up my feelings pretty well. Given that Sansa knows Ramsey is horrible(although maybe not to the extent where he would have Theon watch) and that Westorsi custom is to consummate the marriage the night of marriage (often against one, or even both participants will), I think she made the decision to marry him full well in anticipation that he will likely rape her, but she thinks it is worth it to take back Winterfell. I'm not sure you would call that empowered, but I don't think the criticisms of this scene saying it removes her agency as a character in story (although she clearly doesn't have a lot of agency in this individual scene) are really valid. This is one AWFUL part of her plan to manipulate the Boltons in order to retake her families home.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zarq » Wed May 20, 2015 4:17 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
maybeagnostic wrote:
SecondTaon wrote:I don't think you understand what the word "consent" means.

Well, that is just getting muddled


No it's not. Did she agree to have sex with him? No. Did he have sex with her anyway? Yes. That's rape. The fact that pretty much all women in Westeros suffer this doesn't make it any better, quite the opposite.


I guess you could say she consented to getting raped. She knowingly and willingly went into a situation that was very likely to lead to rape. But it's still rape. I repeat: I do NOT mean that it is NOT RAPE. I don't think this is relevant here though.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed May 20, 2015 4:49 pm UTC

I would say that she accepted what would happen, but did not consent. There's a difference. For example, they happen at different times: she accepted the decision to go to Winterfell two episodes ago, for example, while she only could have consented to sex in the last episode.

If Captain America realizes that he'll get shot at while raiding a Hydra base, and he does it anyway, he accepts that he'll get shot at, but he doesn't consent to get shot at.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Wed May 20, 2015 5:11 pm UTC

Her own experiences have proven versatile, in a sense - yes she was with Joffrey, but she was also with Tyrion and he basically said "we'll act married if we have to but I'm not going to force you to do anything". So that's one example of why she doesn't necessarily expect it (definitely not in the fashion it was portrayed on the show), and the example is from her own experience.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Wed May 20, 2015 5:18 pm UTC

Hmm, lemme rephrase that. She might have accepted it, but that would not mean that she consented.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lucrece » Wed May 20, 2015 5:46 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:Her own experiences have proven versatile, in a sense - yes she was with Joffrey, but she was also with Tyrion and he basically said "we'll act married if we have to but I'm not going to force you to do anything". So that's one example of why she doesn't necessarily expect it (definitely not in the fashion it was portrayed on the show), and the example is from her own experience.


Yeah, no. House Bolton's sigil is a skinned man. Sansa knew about the Red Wedding, how her brother's head was cut off and replaced with that of his wolf. How her mother too was killed. She's not naive about who the Boltons are.

Tyrion is a rather stark exception in this world, that's one of GRRM's points, that people perceived as horrible and devilish (they call Tyrion the imp) are not usually the ugly, evil ones. In fact, when Tyrion and Sansa were betrothed, Sansa dreaded Tyrion because she knew that the custom was that she was going to sleep with him. Tyrion just surprised her because she had these prejudices about his appearance and reputation (whoremonger) and that he was a Lannister, but she saw what anyone eventually sees in Tyrion and that is his unorthodox approach to life given his own life experiences.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu May 21, 2015 5:47 am UTC

Zohar wrote:
maybeagnostic wrote:
SecondTaon wrote:I don't think you understand what the word "consent" means.

Well, that is just getting muddled


No it's not. Did she agree to have sex with him? No. Did he have sex with her anyway? Yes. That's rape. The fact that pretty much all women in Westeros suffer this doesn't make it any better, quite the opposite.

You realize "consent" can mean many things other than just agreeing to have sex with someone, right? I also said the scene was depicting rape in the very next sentence and no one is claiming what happened should be ordinary or acceptable. I'll try to rephrase using a less loaded term. Littlefinger gave her the option of going to Winterfell to reclaim her heritage or staying safe. She decided to go to Winterfell despite knowing the Boltons killed her family and all the people she grew up with. She was offered a way to escape through lighting a candle in the tower and told about Ramsay's sick hobby but decided to stay and marry him. Then they got married and they had to have sex (last time Tyrion and Shae were basically lying to everyone that it had already happened) and Ramsay raped her. She knew this would happen which does not mean she consented to it but Westerosi society (kind of like many Western societies until recently) doesn't allow her the right to choose whether she has sex on her wedding night. So it's a horrible society and Ramsay is a horrible person and something horrible happened to Sansa and no one is arguing any of those are not true. What I see many people conclude is that she is a helpless victim again which I just don't agree with. She is starting to play the Game and takes as much control of the situation as she possibly can which is very different from the way she was in King's Landing.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Thu May 21, 2015 12:53 pm UTC

I don't contest she had her reasons for staying in that situation, and that maybe she can turn things around for the better. I'm saying there's absolutely zero question of whether it's rape or not. I'm not sure if I mentioned it here or somewhere else - my main issue is I felt the scene was unnecessary, and thus mostly for shock value. After all, Sansa has been in abusive relationships, Ramsy's been shown to be a terrible human being, Theon has plenty of reasons to resent Ramsy and be more protective of Sansa.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu May 21, 2015 12:57 pm UTC

So, assuming for the sake of discussion that the story arc for Sansa was replacing Jeyne Poole for [reasons to be revealed]. This includes having a nuptial night of with a well known sadist and psychopath. Is there any scene you would have found to not be just for shock value? Or do you find the whole Sansa arc to now just be for shock value?
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby maybeagnostic » Thu May 21, 2015 2:33 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:I don't contest she had her reasons for staying in that situation, and that maybe she can turn things around for the better. I'm saying there's absolutely zero question of whether it's rape or not.
Agreed. I never intended to question that.

Zohar wrote:I'm not sure if I mentioned it here or somewhere else - my main issue is I felt the scene was unnecessary, and thus mostly for shock value. After all, Sansa has been in abusive relationships, Ramsy's been shown to be a terrible human being, Theon has plenty of reasons to resent Ramsy and be more protective of Sansa.
It is my hope that the rest of her arc for the season is overcoming/accepting what happened and not letting it prevent her from being awesome and kicking Bolton ass. So it will serve the purpose of demonstrating that this happening to her doesn't turn her into a helpless victim and doesn't make her any less capable. If that turns out to not be the direction they take it, my opinion on the scene might change quite a bit.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu May 21, 2015 2:36 pm UTC

From my pov, I think it would have been better had the scene ended 5 seconds earlier, when it last looked at sansa. It makes it clear what's happening without being graphic and also avoids focussing on Reek's man-pain in the way the scene we got did.

Seeing as Sansa seems to be doing the Jeyne Poole plot, I think the scene probably needed to happen in some form but it could certainly have been done much better. I'm also surprised at the number of people I've seen who think this is worse than the Jaime-Cersei scene from last season. To me that was much worse; it was much more lingering, wasn't intended to be a rape scene (saying worrying things about the director and writers' views on consent) and was unnecessary in that form (not being in the books and not being intentional).
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Thu May 21, 2015 2:42 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:So, assuming for the sake of discussion that the story arc for Sansa was replacing Jeyne Poole for [reasons to be revealed]. This includes having a nuptial night of with a well known sadist and psychopath. Is there any scene you would have found to not be just for shock value? Or do you find the whole Sansa arc to now just be for shock value?

Well, for one thing they could have not shown it, or stopped at it him telling Theon to stay and watch - that would definitely have been much better. I don't think anyone expected Sansa to have some TLC time with Ramsy, I think everyone understood this isn't going to be fun times for anyone, it would make things clear (the marriage consummation), and it would not be as brutal as it was depicted.

For another, if they feel so comfortable about changing the story, I don't see why they have to stick to that particular scene - as I mentioned, Sansa already suffered, Sansa is worried about Ramsy, Ramsy is terrible, Theon has lots of reasons to hate Ramsy. The rape scene didn't add any new information regarding that.

[quote="maybeadnostic]It is my hope that the rest of her arc for the season is overcoming/accepting what happened and not letting it prevent her from being awesome and kicking Bolton ass. If that turns out to not be the direction they take it, my opinion on the scene might change quite a bit.[/quote]
Obviously I would like Sansa, a somewhat likable character (if very boring until the end of the last season) to get some sort of revenge and become a bit stronger. My issue with this is she doesn't need any extra incentives - her whole family's been murdered by these people, I'm pretty sure she'd be happy with them just gone. Her getting raped doesn't add much (and I feel queasy about any implication of rape as character development), and not particularly original, in this show or any other. I've been rewatching Battlestar Galactica and the amount of women who are threatened with rape is pretty astounding, and it's kind of boring to have these fantastical/futuristic worlds succumb to familiar tropes and not make use of their fantasy to paint a new picture and new possibilities, where the challenges and threats women face can be the same as men's challenges. That's a change that I rather liked about Daenerys's (sp?) story - we start out with rape (blech), but basically since then she's been amassing power and her challenges would have been similar had she been a man.

I don't mind that sex is part of a story, it's just that it's very one-sided. Women get sexual violence done to them, the men watch in horror and get their heads decapitated or whatnot. The only exception, I suppose, is Theon.

BTW, I thought Jaime-Cersei was pretty terrible for the reasons eSOANEM described, particularly the part where the creators didn't get they were filming a rape scene. Sansa's rape is the straw that's threatening to break the camel's back.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Thu May 21, 2015 3:25 pm UTC

Rape as character development is indeed a shitty trope but, in this specific case, there's another person in the room who can get character development from the scene (making it pointful) without running into the usual problems with the trope.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Obby » Thu May 21, 2015 3:54 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:Rape as character development is indeed a shitty trope but, in this specific case, there's another person in the room who can get character development from the scene (making it pointful) without running into the usual problems with the trope.

That's the way I took it, as well. I thought that the scene was more for Theon's development than Sansa's. I read the scene as likely (hopefully) providing a vehicle for Theon to remember who he is without shrinking away from it in fear of what Ramsay will do to him, and to remember that Sansa was someone he grew up with and was basically family, and seeing this awful thing happen to her might be a catalyst for him to do something to prevent it in the future.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Thu May 21, 2015 4:11 pm UTC

I think you guys are forgetting that this rape isn't happening in a story vacuum.

Zohar wrote:Well, for one thing they could have not shown it, or stopped at it him telling Theon to stay and watch - that would definitely have been much better. I don't think anyone expected Sansa to have some TLC time with Ramsy, I think everyone understood this isn't going to be fun times for anyone, it would make things clear (the marriage consummation), and it would not be as brutal as it was depicted.
I also see the problem with having the rape be emphasized as horrible to anyone other than Sansa, but I also think it's valid that Theon's suffering be acknowledged if he's going to have any further arc beyond just being a walking zombie. If this is the catalyst that leads him to throwing off Ramseys control, and Sansa can use it to further her own goals, then the pan isn't contextless.

It's also worth pointing out that the pan could have been due to a variety of non-story related elements, including, Sophie Turner (the actress who plays Sansa) having a contract that limits violence (sexual or physical), considering she started filming this show when she was underage. Also, ratings - it's one thing to show Cersei or Daenerys being raped, as even though Dany was young when she was, the actress was quite adult in appearance, it's another entirely to show a child being raped.

Zohar wrote:For another, if they feel so comfortable about changing the story, I don't see why they have to stick to that particular scene - as I mentioned, Sansa already suffered, Sansa is worried about Ramsy, Ramsy is terrible, Theon has lots of reasons to hate Ramsy. The rape scene didn't add any new information regarding that.
I felt the whole scene was building towards this notion of 'there are no exit strategies left'. Sansa spent pretty much every moment from her bath with Myranda onward making decisions that close doors of escape and confirm she is making the choice to be where she is. That is, of course, not the same as consenting to being raped, but she was not in that bedroom because she was forced to, which makes for an interesting juxtaposition to the fact that she was forced into Tyrions bedroom, where she was not raped. Additionally, the purpose of showing that her and Theon's relationship is, obviously, strained, is to underline that she doesn't know something we the viewer know, namely, that Theon actually saved her brothers. I wager this is a deliberate tension builder to show that her and Theon will have some kind of arc. Since he's basically the only character of merit who is an ally to her in Winterfell, this could go in a lot of different directions.

Of course, if you've simply viewed 'one rape too many' at this point in the series, I understand, and sympathize.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Thu May 21, 2015 4:21 pm UTC

eSOANEM wrote:Rape as character development is indeed a shitty trope but, in this specific case, there's another person in the room who can get character development from the scene (making it pointful) without running into the usual problems with the trope.

I get where you're coming from, personally I find this even worse...
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Lucrece » Fri May 22, 2015 8:57 am UTC

Something else to keep in mind is that this show has had a string of gratuitous violence.

Anyone remember Cersei's visit to The Mountain where he's disemboweling innocent civilians as sparring practice, and when the last man begs for mercy he just splits his head in two? Let's not forget Oberyn's death scene. How necessary was such a depiction? I know I had trouble sleeping at the indignation over such a graphic display.

We didn't need to see all those violent scenes either considering Gregor's violent behavior had already been established by beheading his horse at the tournament and trying to kill Loras in front of the king.

Did we need to see the crucified slavers when Daeneris took over? The entire TV show, and really most of GRRM's shtick (including his books) ARE the shock value. A popular trend as much as The Sopranos or any other show who uses violence as a storytelling tool.

Shows like Enlightened and The No. 1 Ladies Detective Agency on HBO were beautiful, masterfully cast shows that didn't rely on violence or grim outlooks to tell stirring stories, but HBO cancelled them for their ratings. Most of HBO's successful shows are violence porn (some variations of mobster or detective/police drama). Apparently something is "realistic" and "adult" if it's sickeningly cynical and dour.

edit: oops, clarified The Mountain.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Fri May 22, 2015 1:33 pm UTC

Lucrece wrote:Anyone remember Cersei's visit to the mountain where he's disemboweling innocent civilians as sparring practice, and when the last man begs for mercy he just splits his head in two?


It's funny. Without capitalization on mountain I was thinking you just mistook Cersei for someone else and I was wracking my brain trying to figure out who had gone to a mountain for sparring practice...

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Mon May 25, 2015 8:19 pm UTC

Ep7

Spoiler:
Been looking forward to the Cersei thing all season, and now it looks like it's coming to fruition. Truly, she is not a clever person; she thought that the mere act of elevating someone to a position of influence would make them her pawn. I doubt Tywin would have made that mistake. Dis gon' be gud.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Mon May 25, 2015 11:08 pm UTC

Spoiler:
I'm surprised about that too. Well, we'll see how things go. Having another rape threat this episode (and more implied rapes of Sansa) is not particularly reassuring though.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby eSOANEM » Tue May 26, 2015 6:52 am UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm surprised about that too. Well, we'll see how things go. Having another rape threat this episode (and more implied rapes of Sansa) is not particularly reassuring though.


Spoiler:
This. Not only was it another rape scene of quetionable necessity, it was the second one this season where they focussed on a male bystander's man-pain.

Now, sure, that's better than an explicitly brutal one, but there are ways of avoiding both (cutting early in the sansa one for instance) and the people in charge just haven't even tried.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 26, 2015 12:19 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
I'm surprised about that too. Well, we'll see how things go. Having another rape threat this episode (and more implied rapes of Sansa) is not particularly reassuring though.
Spoiler:
This is all the same issue, not a new issue. Sansa is in a firmly abusive relationship with a captor, and we're seeing it, as Theon is stripped away as an ally, and the old lady is stripped away as an ally. I'm hoping her revenge isn't petty like she stabs him in the back when he's not looking, and I'm hoping her little speech about how 'you can't scare me in my home' actually means something other than hollow words.

Can't wait to see Cercei's come uppin's. I loved the way she was smiling when the Sparrow was talking about justice, and how that smile faded when he started talking about her cousin.

This was the part of Dany's story in the 5th book I hated, and I hope this lasts only 1 episode. Seems it's going to get interesting because Tyrion is here now - this is uncharted territory!
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Tue May 26, 2015 12:34 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:
Spoiler:
This is all the same issue, not a new issue. Sansa is in a firmly abusive relationship with a captor, and we're seeing it, as Theon is stripped away as an ally, and the old lady is stripped away as an ally. I'm hoping her revenge isn't petty like she stabs him in the back when he's not looking, and I'm hoping her little speech about how 'you can't scare me in my home' actually means something other than hollow words.

Spoiler:
It's not any better because it's repeated... Sansa's life is already pretty terrible. She doesn't need repeated rapes in order to hate Ramsy. He doesn't really like her, he could have just raped her the one time to consummate the marriage and be done with her, and she would still hate where she is, she would still turn to Theon, Ramsy would still find out about it and he would still kill the old woman. So there's basically zero reason that I can see why this should go on.

And in any case, just because she will get revenge (probably...), doesn't mean everything's all fine and dandy. Rape is not something that just happens and you forget about it once the attacker is punished, there's emotional consequences to it, which other than the obvious being-upset-about-it, we don't really see. Yet, anyway. But somehow, seeing how the creators had Dany and Cersei act after they were raped, and Brianne after her attempted rape, I don't think they'll do a very good job of it.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 26, 2015 1:22 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Because Ramsey is a sadist, and delights in torturing people. We aren't *seeing* any additional rapes, we're just seeing that Sansa is having a really shitty time,saying "he does things to me each night". I'm not sure what your issue is with this point specifically other than her situation hasn't improved since the very end of the last episode, and is in fact worsened because we know she's being raped, and her allies are being stripped away. I understand that seeing/hearing about sexual violence isn't something you want to be experiencing while watching this show, but it's just one of the many different forms of violence we're seeing. I notice, for example, you had no stated contention with seeing the corpse of an old woman who was flayed to death, or the barbarism of people being slaughtered in fighting pits after literally being sold on a slave market.

Sansa's alone. That point is being made. Hopefully that point won't be made for too many more episodes, and hopefully she'll do something impressive to save herself. The thing that annoyed me most about this last episode was that she decided testing Ramsey was a prudent course of action, by saying "And your father is expecting a new baby boy, what will that do to you, afterall, you're a bastard". I practically yelled at the TV at that point, exasperatedly shouting "COMON SANSA, you know better".
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Tue May 26, 2015 2:03 pm UTC

Spoiler:
About 1 in 6 American women are raped or suffer an attempted rape in their lives. About 1 in 3 are sexually assaulted (most multiple times). ALL women are sexually harassed during their lives (and again, for the vast majority it's multiple times, for a lot of those it's multiple times on a weekly basis). I don't have the statistics for public flayings or slavery death-battles, but somehow I suspect they're quite a bit lower, especially among the viewers of the show. So yes, this bothers me a lot more than any other type of violence on the show. For one, it's not a "Look at how terrible the past was" thing, it's something that still happens today, and the show perpetuates rape culture, and the showrunners don't even realize it when they're doing it (see Cersei's rape).

Second, there's absolutely no story development that results from further rape. It doesn't give anyone any further incentives, and it doesn't change anything about any of the different people's motives and stories, as I've explained above. Sansa would have been alone whether she was raped nightly or not. Did we learn something new about Ramsey because of this? I thought it was made pretty clear that he's a sadist. It's just a bad decision that has absolutely no value.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 26, 2015 2:28 pm UTC

Spoiler:
The stats about rape are true, and horrible, and worth repeating, but irrelevant to what is currently occurring in the show. *Yes*, some significant number people will be triggered by this stuff, and *yes* that will make the show hard to watch for those people, and *yes* I sympathize with those people, but story arc of this/these characters is currently at a point where the subject of rape and/or sexual assault is part of the story. Again, if you don't want to watch it, I wholly understand, and should feel free to not watch it. As with all things, no one is forcing you to, and particularly neat within GoT, her story is just one of many.

Now, that said, what is happening to her *is* relevant to the greater story, and her scenes in this most recent episode *do* serve to further both her story arc and the greater story. We know that the Boltons are holding Winterfell, and that Stannis' army is struggling to make it there. We know that Ramsey is on a sort of 'last ropes' predicament, simulataneously having to prove his worth to his father by being an heir, a commander of Winterfell, and in some ways, by keeping Sansa secure.

The singular line Sansa said in regards to her repeated rapes is but one portion of her situation, and represented a whole 2s of time spent on her arc, and served as a reminder for anyone who (understandably) forgets specifics about characters what is going on. I disagree with your perception that it 'served no purpose' or was 'excessive'. If anything, I think the lingering camera on the old womans flayed corpse was excessive, and, like I said, Sansa utter lack of character growth with respect to needling Ramsey about being a bastard.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Tue May 26, 2015 2:35 pm UTC

Well, I disagree with you on that. I doubt any people forgot the end of last week's episode, discussing it further this week doesn't promote anything, even if it's only two seconds. And as eSOANEM mentioned, it's not a problem only with this particular story, but a recurring one whenever they raise these issues on the show.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby TheGrammarBolshevik » Tue May 26, 2015 3:12 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
Second, there's absolutely no story development that results from further rape. It doesn't give anyone any further incentives, and it doesn't change anything about any of the different people's motives and stories, as I've explained above. Sansa would have been alone whether she was raped nightly or not. Did we learn something new about Ramsey because of this? I thought it was made pretty clear that he's a sadist. It's just a bad decision that has absolutely no value.

Spoiler:
There's more to it than learning new things about Ramsay. Consistency is also important. If Sansa and Ramsay have a nice, consensual, non-traumatic wedding night, then, sure, it won't change the fact that Ramsay is a horrific sadist, but it would still be a significant - and a bit odd - development.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Tue May 26, 2015 3:16 pm UTC

TheGrammarBolshevik wrote:
Spoiler:
There's more to it than learning new things about Ramsay. Consistency is also important. If Sansa and Ramsay have a nice, consensual, non-traumatic wedding night, then, sure, it won't change the fact that Ramsay is a horrific sadist, but it would still be a significant - and a bit odd - development.

I'm not talking right now about the event from the previous episode, I'm talking about The Gift. I agree for Ramsay (is that how it's spelled then?) to be nice and cuddly would be weird. And I agree their marriage night was pretty likely to end as it did. I have issues with how they chose to present it, and I have issues that they continue to emphasize it now. Ramsay is pretty consistently sadistic, and we see that from his actions in this episode that are actually displayed on-screen, without having to listen to what he does off-screen.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 26, 2015 3:29 pm UTC

To me it sounds like your objection is you don't like the character and what he gets up to, and you don't like that he's still part of the story?
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Tue May 26, 2015 4:07 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:To me it sounds like your objection is you don't like the character and what he gets up to, and you don't like that he's still part of the story?

Hmm, that's not what I meant, let me try to explain more clearly. Obviously he's not a fun and lovable character, of course, but I don't mind him being evil, or having evil characters on the show. There aren't many adventure stories that can do with antagonists. What bothers me is there's an almost pornographic exhibitionism of his sadistic tendencies, specifically with regards to sexually sadistic tendencies.
Spoiler:
That's not only true for Ramsay, though - it's true in general. I don't mind that Sansa specifically suffers, I mind that women are systematically targeted as suffering sexually, and the poor treatment of these assaults and their reactions by the showrunners. Of course the show tries to be entertaining, and interesting. But when it doesn't treat rape as rape (Cersei, Dany) or when it doesn't treat it as something horrible that happens to the raped victim (focusing on Theon's face instead of Sansa's suffering, or instead of not showing the rape at all in the last episode; and focusing on Sam's outrage and reward in this episode), that bothers me a lot, and it keeps happening more and more.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 26, 2015 4:33 pm UTC

I disagree with your interpretation of the handling of rape in this show.

Specifically with Ramsey though, his exhibitionism is part of his sadism. He doesn't just torture people, he makes a spectacle about it. That's specifically part of his character.

Spoiler:
Zohar wrote:focusing on Theon's face instead of Sansa's suffering, or instead of not showing the rape at all in the last episode
This is the sort of thing I'm having a hard time seeing eye to eye with you on - in the last episode, you were upset that they showed Sansa's rape at all, in addition to being upset that they panned to Theon's face suffering. In this episode, you're upset that they remind you that Sansa is being raped, even though they don't show it.

Your criticism of the handling of things in this show is such that there's no course of action the creators can really take without upsetting you. Rape and sexual assault are upsetting, I agree, but they *are* part of this worlds story backdrop, and as such, are story elements to be dealt with. If you don't like the handling because x, but -x would also bother you, maybe you should reassess if this is a show for you - and to be clear, I'm not saying that as an insult or such.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Jave D » Tue May 26, 2015 4:43 pm UTC

The whole series has gotten a bit too rapey for me. It's become a theme, and as themes do, it winds up pervading every other event in the story, coloring it with itself. For example, in the latest episode:

Spoiler:
Cersei's gonna get her comeuppance, eh? So she and the High Sparrow are talking. He's going on about faith. We're all waiting for the other shoe to drop. And then it does. Suddenly, she can't escape, her very ideas about reality are violated. This is a metaphorical rape, you see, and you can feel one way or the other about it but the mute fact remains, it's got rapey vibes without even being overtly rapey at this point.

It should be called Rape of Thrones, or perhaps Game of Rapes. Isn't that, essentially, what this is is all about? Politics and power. The cold machinations of ruthless, immoral people. Victimization. Brutality. The very core of rape itself.

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Tue May 26, 2015 5:02 pm UTC

Izawwlgood wrote:I disagree with your interpretation of the handling of rape in this show.
Specifically with Ramsey though, his exhibitionism is part of his sadism. He doesn't just torture people, he makes a spectacle about it. That's specifically part of his character.

Well I would say we've had a lot of his exhibitionism, and don't need constant examples that he's terrible.

Spoiler:
This is the sort of thing I'm having a hard time seeing eye to eye with you on - in the last episode, you were upset that they showed Sansa's rape at all, in addition to being upset that they panned to Theon's face suffering. In this episode, you're upset that they remind you that Sansa is being raped, even though they don't show it.

Spoiler:
In order for me to be satisfied, the creators could have done the following. One, end the scene last episode when Ramsey tells Theon to stay and watch - we all knew what was going to happen, we didn't need to actually see it. Two, remove the line about Sansa's subsequent rapes - whether they're happening or not has no impact on the plot and I can do with less mentioning of that (and maybe slightly more original ways for women to suffer, too...). I would have been much more pleased with that solution. Instead the shows basically keeps shouting RAPE! RAPE RAPE RAPE! all the time. It's repetitive, it's offense, it's ineffective, and it's boring.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby SlyReaper » Tue May 26, 2015 7:31 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:
Spoiler:
Instead the shows basically keeps shouting RAPE! RAPE RAPE RAPE! all the time.


So? It also keeps shouting BLOOD BLOOD MURDER MURDER TORTURE TORTURE GRIZZLY DEATH. These are things that happen in the story and are used to emphasise what a hellish world it is for those without power. One of the reasons the show is so popular is that it doesn't shy away from showing appalling acts of barbarism.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 26, 2015 7:39 pm UTC

Spoiler:
Jave D wrote:Cersei's gonna get her comeuppance, eh? So she and the High Sparrow are talking. He's going on about faith. We're all waiting for the other shoe to drop. And then it does. Suddenly, she can't escape, her very ideas about reality are violated. This is a metaphorical rape, you see, and you can feel one way or the other about it but the mute fact remains, it's got rapey vibes without even being overtly rapey at this point.

It should be called Rape of Thrones, or perhaps Game of Rapes. Isn't that, essentially, what this is is all about? Politics and power. The cold machinations of ruthless, immoral people. Victimization. Brutality. The very core of rape itself.
Spoiler:
Look, man, any sort of forcing a person to do a thing, be that imprisonment or making them pay for bus fair, is not rape. You can't turn rape into this black hole that sucks all other things into it, as I feel that invalidates actual rape. Cersei being arrested by the clergy was not rape, end statement.

Spoiler:
Zohar wrote:In order for me to be satisfied, the creators could have done the following. One, end the scene last episode when Ramsey tells Theon to stay and watch - we all knew what was going to happen, we didn't need to actually see it. Two, remove the line about Sansa's subsequent rapes - whether they're happening or not has no impact on the plot and I can do with less mentioning of that (and maybe slightly more original ways for women to suffer, too...). I would have been much more pleased with that solution. Instead the shows basically keeps shouting RAPE! RAPE RAPE RAPE! all the time. It's repetitive, it's offense, it's ineffective, and it's boring.
Spoiler:
But they didn't 'show it', they showed her bodice being ripped open, him pushing her over, and then deliberately *not showing* the actual rape. That bothered you, because you felt it portrayed the rape through the suffering of Theon.

Not awknowledging that Sansa is still being raped would be a disservice - it seeks to hide her pain and trauma away from the fact that she's actually factually still experiencing, and indeed, enduring(!) pain and trauma.

I really don't see eye to eye with you on this matter, and I'm not trying to be combative with you about it, but I think you really ought to consider if a show that deals with violent adult themes is for you, given your objections to the portrayals of a specific type of violent adult theme. To repeat myself, there is *a lot* of physical violence in this show that you seem to have no issue with, and seem to rationalize this by saying that rape and sexual violence affect some statistical amount of women.

Sex is part of this show. If that makes you uncomfortable, this show may not be for you.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Chen » Tue May 26, 2015 7:42 pm UTC

SlyReaper wrote:So? It also keeps shouting BLOOD BLOOD MURDER MURDER TORTURE TORTURE GRIZZLY DEATH. These are things that happen in the story and are used to emphasise what a hellish world it is for those without power. One of the reasons the show is so popular is that it doesn't shy away from showing appalling acts of barbarism.


Whoa there. I don't think they actually killed any bears. The one in the pit was just wounded and distracted by the crossbow bolt :P

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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Zohar » Tue May 26, 2015 8:50 pm UTC

I'm not sure where I'm being unclear... I am bothered that the show deals with issues that affect a large proportion (I would even say all) of its viewers in a very poor way. It raises issues that affect all of society and doesn't give them proper context and treats them very poorly. This is true for all of the sexual violence on the show, since all women in our world suffer sexual violence. On the other hand, the violent and bloody acts that are portrayed on the show are not a prevalent occurrence in our society and thus are not much of an issue. We don't have a "crush people's heads with our hands" culture, we don't have a "burn children to death" culture, we don't have a "chase people down with wild dogs and have them eat their victims" culture. But we do have a rape culture, it's something that actually exists. When the show perpetuates rape, ignores its effects, ignores its victims, it perpetuates rape culture. So that's why this bothers me.

If you're looking for examples of accurate portrayals of rape, which I didn't mind (other than the obvious objections to rape...), you can look to Mad Men and Joan's rape in season 2, or to Outlander (the book at least, I haven't seen the show yet), and I'm sure there are plenty of other examples I haven't thought of. But the way the show does it, is not only terrible, but also unoriginal and boring with its repetitiveness. I never said that characters may never be raped, but I believe the way the show presents it is bad, both in a social and moral way and from a storytelling perspective.
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Re: Game of Thrones: The TV Show (novelisation coming soon)

Postby Izawwlgood » Tue May 26, 2015 9:08 pm UTC

Zohar wrote:But we do have a rape culture, it's something that actually exists. When the show perpetuates rape, ignores its effects, ignores its victims, it perpetuates rape culture. So that's why this bothers me.
And I'm being quite clear that I disagree with your interpretation that the show perpetuates rape, ignores its effects, ignores its victims, and/or perpetuates rape culture.

You can keep repeating that you find the handling to be repeatedly problematic, and I am not telling you you're wrong, I'm telling you I disagree with your interpretation of it, and that if this is repeatedly bothering you, maybe it's not the show for you.

I also still find this dismissal of violence because we don't have a 'violent' culture to be a poor argument. Additionally, for example, I personally think I was religiously indoctrinated, and find all the sequences with the Sparrows to be very upsetting for a few reasons.
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